The problem with "choosing signals"

[SW15]

Waiting for choosing signals is a passive mindset that limits your options and places the girl in the driver's seat. It's basically prioritizing her frame over yours. Furthermore, generally speaking, the hottest girls are going to give the least obvious interest--or even convey active disinterest since they have more social value at risk and are actively screening for guys who feel entitled to them and don't have to base their confidence off of external feedback.

Interesting point. I wouldn't call it a passive mindset. If the hottest women give the least obvious interest, that can be problematic.

most guys suck d1ck at reading interest to begin with--so they're probably not even seeing those choosing signals the vast majority of the time. Furthermore, girls have gotten worse at conveying interest and less socially attuned in general. Furthermore, you're way more likely to get choosing signals from girls who are low SMV and it's easy to rationalize those girls as what you want out--or what you deserve--out of fear of rejection (same thing that happens in OLD, which is also safe and low effort--most guys end up batting way below their potential).

The most important part of this quote is what I chose to bold. I had this exact discussion in 2012 with a friend who was good at pickup back then. At that time, I preferred waiting for signals and he spam approached. He's one of the few men to do well with spam approaching because he is 6'4" and a former NCAA athlete in a country club sport. His overall game was weaker than many guys', but he had solid results due to spam approaching and having a good look. He never looked for indicators of interest at all.

I would like to think that I have not missed any signals and read extensively in my teens and early 20s about which signals to look for to see if she's interested.

sometimes girls don't even notice you because they're talking to their friends, or trying to order drinks, or whatever else.

Meh. If they are talking to their friends, how serious are they about meeting men? Yes, I can accept the notion that a woman might not notice a man for some reason.

1. the lower your SMV, the fewer of these "choosing signals" you will get. Therefore, average to below average looking guys will be waiting inordinately long periods in between "choosing signals"

2. "choosing signals" tend to become more obvious and common in specific situations and during specific times: if you don't like going to bars and clubs during late night hours on weekends, again, you'll likely receive relatively few of these signs

3. most girls are very aware of their surroundings for obvious reasons, but they have work, school, chores and travel they need to attend to and they can't constantly scan for guys they are interested in during every waking moment

If you are VERY high on the SMV scale, then yes, you can rely solely on "choosing signals" if you so choose. For the 90 to 99% of guys who are not, you cannot.

You can get choosing signals during the day. I have gotten them. Eye contact and smile. See who returns your body language. I have found most women ignore strong eye contact and a smile. Lower SMV does mean fewer signals.

Ridiculous. By ingnoring this essential skill you are killing your success rate. Learn body language skills. All it takes is a brief encounter. So why **** on the "read" take it with you.

Approaching women who give good IOIs will reduce the number of uncomfortable approaches. Even my 6'4" ex athlete friend (some might have called him Chad-ish) had many uncomfortable approaches because he spam approached.

 

[DonJuanjr]

Dude get over it. You cant fix someone or a young man who doesnt want it. You gotta want through a lot of trials. Captain save a Joe is for therapists. Tears dont make you better with girls.

Whatever man.... Keep picking on the borderline retarded if it makes you feel more like a player...

 

[devilkingx2]

There's definitely women who need to be approached or opened before they warm up to you. Even if they looked mean or closed off before. I've been experiencing that a lot lately while opening girls with a compliment.

I also think that waiting for choosing signals is only a good idea if you're a very good looking dude, Otherwise you probably won't get many from attractive girls. Advice that only works for good looking guys isn't that useful.

 

[mrskinnypantz]

How do you do that?

Ok if we are talking about choosing signals it's gonna be similar to online dating , looks and appearance are going to be the first thing women see right? So you want to take your appearance to the next level. Get fit as possible , dress better , get haircuts that fit you and your style.

Game begins once your SMV reaches a level that allows you to interact successfully with more women, more experience because of more options .
But it begins with getting your SMV to a level that will grant you access to trial and error

 

[Striker_93]

Whatever man.... Keep picking on the borderline retarded if it makes you feel more like a player...

The universe doesn't care about the "retards"
It doesn't care about the poor, the handicap ect the universe doesn't care so neither should we.

No need to put them down but no need to feel sorry for them either.

Like I said earlier, only the strong survive.
Survival of the fittest.

 

[fastlife]

why would I waste my time worrying about someone who has showed disinterest wether actively or indirectly?

Idk, because you want to fvck the most attractive woman in the bar--who's probably at a table surrounded by orbiters and gfs--instead of settling on whatever chooses you? To have agency?

Me trying to show her what I'm about is essentially me trying to earn her.

if you're not getting choosing signals why not raise your smv?

not every man is going to be a 10 but there's always room for improvement.
If you really want to date hot women you should put effort into your raising your SMV , there's no excuse for not wanting to improve your life , even outside of dating.

Make it make sense. So running your mouth for 5 to 15 minutes until you get a girl to show interest is earning her, but spending years (sometimes) to get a great job or a great body (which the hot girl probably doesn't even care about cause she's surrounded by guys who dunk on you by societal measures) isn't? Lol

I've had a girl tell me once "you're the one who approached me " the second I began to rebel on her bullsh1t , because she had the leverage ,it wasn't mutual

Oh no, one girl sh1t tested you and you didn't know how to pass it. Let's just scrap this whole cold approach thing.

I've fvcked chicks with 50 or lower percent interest ,but it took longer

50% lol? You either have compliance or you don't--and you can either demonstrate qualities that raise compliance or you can't. And that doesn't have to take a long time. I'm almost exclusively same night. Ya some girls might take 3 hrs vs 20 mins--just like you have to practice longer to shoot 3s than you would to make layups and you might miss more than the dude who only shoots layups--but who cares at that point? I'd rather spend 3 hrs on the girl I really want than dip out with whatever decides I'm the best they're doing that night.

"confidence comes from within" no tf it doesn't lol
Confidence comes from having repeated success , not repeated failures or rejections.

Nah. It's not that binary. Confidence leads to achievements which leads to confidence which leads to achievements. Obviously past success helps--until your ego's so invested in past success that you're too afraid to roll up on the hottest girl at the bar because her back might be too you lol. And the most successful people usually face the most rejection and the most failure and remain confident in spite of that--read the biography of literally anyone worthwhile lol.

Rediculous. By ingnoring this essential skill you are killing your success rate. Learn body language skills. All it takes is a brief encounter. So why **** on the "read" take it with you.

Show me where I advised anyone to ignore body language lol. I'm just saying that you can roll up on girls who aren't conveying initial interest and still make things happens a good % of the time--so why worry about that waiting for that initial interest?

Also, note to the viewers at home, when guys start throwing around words like "autistic" and "retard" and "only the strong survive" you know they're losing the argument.

 

[DonJuanjr]

Oh no, one girl sh1t tested you and you didn't know how to pass it.

How would you have passed it? Not criticizing, just seizing an opportunity for a schooling.

 

[fastlife]

I wouldn't call it a passive mindset.

I would. It's like waiting for the perfect job to recruit you instead of applying to the ones you want. I roll with naturals all the time--guys that get laid plenty but who rely on waiting for choosing signals. I'm fvcking hotter girls.

If the hottest women give the least obvious interest, that can be problematic.

This is true almost across the board--almost everyone in the "community" who actually goes out and approaches has noted this. If they didn't have higher barriers to entry they'd literally be incessantly bombarded with so much male attention they wouldn't be able to function and all the guys they fvcked would be needy, clingy, insecure, etc. since they didn't even have the self-belief to roll up on her. (Also, almost everyone exaggerates the hotness of the girls they fvck--I've hung out with wayyy too many "wait for choosing signals" guys and seen what "chooses" them; there's a definite ceiling).

At that time, I preferred waiting for signals and he spam approached.

It's not binary. I definitely pay attention to body-language pre-approach. I said as much earlier in this thread. I don't spam anymore because I don't need to--but I also don't wait for IOIs--because I don't need to. But I learned infinitely more from spamming--which I did do for a couple years--than I did in my late teens/early 20s when I had to wait for girls to show interest before leading things forward. I've fvcked girls who I was convinced hated me right up until the point I was undressing them.

My take on it: Approach the girls YOU want--and let the chips fall wherever. If you get eye contact from the girl YOU want, great. If you don't, it doesn't mean she's not sexually available.

Meh. If they are talking to their friends, how serious are they about meeting men?

It doesn't matter. "Talking to my friends" is her frame. "Taking her home" is mine. Strongest frame wins. I never tracked stats, but vast, vast, vast majority of my bar pulls were girls who were talking to other people, sometimes other guys. Doesn't matter (tho obviously logistics and group management do). I've never lived in a city where hot girls who were 18-22ish went out solo.

See who returns your body language. I have found most women ignore strong eye contact and a smile. Lower SMV does mean fewer signals.

I've never been much of a daygamer, but the hottest girl I've ever pulled from DG (not technically a pull cause we met up later cause I was on my way somewhere) was literally walking from the bank to her car with her back facing me. Didn't matter, I just rolled in and assumed that she liked me. And I prefer to get eye contact pre-approach, but that's not always possible, and it doesn't really matter. What matters is what happen after you open your mouth.

Approaching women who give good IOIs will reduce the number of uncomfortable approaches.

So will social calibration. Tho initially you will weird a lot of girls out, that shouldn't be happening vast, vast majority of the time.

Even my 6'4" ex athlete friend (some might have called him Chad-ish) had many uncomfortable approaches because he spam approached.

So did I when I was starting out--doesn't really happen if your vibe and delivery are on point and you're reacting to their feedback--you startle the girl, step back, smile, palms up, say some sh1t that forces her to chase. Worst case scenario is typically, "Oh, we have to go to the bathroom" after a minute or two. Cya (granted vast, vast majority of my approaches have been in bars and clubs, where that behavior is expected and normalized--on the street, I'm typically a little more circumspect.

 

[fastlife]

How would you have passed it? Not criticizing, just seizing an opportunity for a schooling.

I've never gotten that particular one, except when girls ask me to buy them drinks and I tell them no, which is really just a sh1t test as well. In those cases, I usually like, "Girl, you suck at this. There's literally hundreds of thirsty fvckers who are just hoping for the chance to buy you a drink--and you're asking me?" Sometimes I'll be like, "Watch this" and open some dude beside us and intro them and tell buddy it's her birthday. Sometimes I'll go into some spiel about how fvcked up it is that most guys buy girls drinks to manipulate them into sleeping them because they're so pathetic they don't even feel like they deserve the girls attention without bribing them and I like girls who like me for me. Neither of those work 100% of the time--some girls, even ones that open you or throw massive IOIs, are really just trolling for drinks--their loss; but I'd guess that those work for me well over 60%-70% of the time

My guess is he got it because he wasn't leading the convo or engaging her emotions--or, since she wasn't conveying interest, he didn't feel entitled and came across as uncertain in his body language. Easiest solution is to just do all those things on the front end so that she's not even thinking about how her drink is empty.

If I just got that out of the blue, I'd probably shrug and look bored (which with the right body language pretty much passes all of them). Maybe close space and say, "And what are you gonna do about it?" Hold tension and swap out to another topic that would engage her emotions and lead the convo where I want it to go.

(Also, I personally think qualification (nonjudgmental, open-minded, fun, spontaneous, wild, etc.) + sexualization are the two most important components of game. If you're forcing girls to qualify, they're usually too busy trying to prove their value to question yours. If you're sexualizing, they're usually too engaged in the convo to question your value. Plus, both of those show girls what you're about. You really shouldn't have girls sh1t testing all that hard. Body language + eye contact + tonality/volume are also hugely important as far as how girls respond to you--if you're getting blown out or knee-jerk bad reactions it's usually one of those 3 things.)

EDIT--I've also been having this argument since at least 2016? Lol. Think I've pretty much said my part but if anyone wants any clarification or comes out with any real argument that's based in real life experience--instead of the same fear-based rationalizations, justifications, or projections--happy to respond.

 

[DEEZEDBRAH]

Is what exactly?

What's wrong with scanning for choosing signals? When you want something too much , you end up ruining it. Has she done any casual flirting, touching or anything that says she may be interested? If the answer is no , then why bother? She probably isn't sexually or Romantically attracted to you .

You can still try anyway and I wouldn't hate you for doing it. Maybe she's conservative and doesn't send out choosing signals or maybe she feels like she doesn't have to

After enough experience, it's old hate. I know what attraction is. Sometimes, it's passive or other times it's overt. Irrelevant. I shoot my shot just cause. Modern women are a dumpster fire. Ran through and ****ed up. She could false accusation Chad or Tyrone for not getting the ring.

Fellas should exercise common sense. The IOIs and choosing signals were coined by men because we know female nature. False accusations are biblical. Women have been playing that game for thousands of years.

Today it's even more absurd. For noobs and fellas with wackkkk game, they really need you exercise common sense and not do any wackkkk ****.

 

[DonJuanjr]

I've fvcked girls who I was convinced hated me right up until the point I was undressing them.

How did you interact with them?

 

[mrskinnypantz]

Make it make sense. So running your mouth for 5 to 15 minutes until you get a girl to show interest is earning her, but spending years (sometimes) to get a great job or a great body (which the hot girl probably doesn't even care about cause she's surrounded by guys who dunk on you by societal measures) isn't? Lol

If hot women don't care about looks how come online dating is so detrimental?
It's not all about looks but once you get the looks down you're able to practice more on your game which is still important
Forget about women for a second , why would you want to walk around with a low smv regardless?
When your SMV is raised, everybody treats you better

 

[fastlife]

How did you interact with them?

Gonna keep this stupid vague, cause I don't wanna be doxxed or have some girl randomly find this and recognize herself. Most obvious example was super early in my game journey--I'd slept with some hot girls but only ones that showed obvious interest and helped lead interactions towards sex (minus one who became my ex). Girl from social circle at a house party. Wouldn't make eye contact. Wouldn't engage much in conversation. Would constantly triangulate. Only girl there so I just kept trying different sh1t I'd read online or stuff that'd worked for me in the past. Ended up sleeping adjacent to each other in the living room. She pretended to be asleep. I said fvck it and started talking to her. She wasn't asleep. Tried to get her over to my side of the living room. She wouldn't budge. Grabbed her wrist at one point and saw here eyes light up but was too noob to interpret that as meaningful interest--only IOI in probably 5 hrs. She left the next day, thought she hated me. She told my buddy she liked me and I was like, the fvck she does. Hit her up on SM; chatted a day or two; invited myself over when I was near her city. Cold, standoffish, literally sat on the floor across the room from me. Told her "Come here." "Why?" "Because I said so." She did, ended up carrying her to her bedroom. We were off and on for most of 3 yrs--messy cause I didn't know how to handle non-exclusive frame and it was long distance.

A more recent example was a girl who was talking to her friend across the bar so didn't see me until I rolled in. I was off so it wasn't a smooth open, but I just kept running my mouth. Very lackluster interaction. But eventually I was like, "Oh ****, she's still here" and moved her. Started finding my rhythm. Frames and sexualization. She's following my lead. Moved her again. Realized she was kinda recoiling from my touch. Stopped touching her. Moved her again. So tons of compliance, even though the girl wouldn't let me touch her. Tried to pull. Wouldn't pull. Running my mouth. Eventually vibe gets weird and she dips out to go to the bathroom--read it as a rejection. Talk with my friends. She walks by. Stop her, intro her to my friends, pull her for food. Back to the apt. Don't want to go into too many details, but extremely inexperienced--what I interpreted as disinterest (and I've been doing this a loooong) time, was really just uncertainty and maybe a little bit of fear.

But there's soooo many examples over the yrs. Again, don't like to be specific with girls I've fvcked or interactions where I use staple lines that the people who know me have probably heard me use 100000x (I'm deep undercover IRL with the game sh1t). Here's an example from one of my FRs of a near-pull that fell apart at the last second but where the girl I liked (I give her a hard 8--so hot enough to not look out of place on Dan Bilzerian's IG when he was in his IG prime)--wasn't about me at all up until I reached the hook point--bounced her and her friend to another bar shortly after this excerpt but by then she was conveying obvious interest (as a result of me forcing her to qualify by breaking rapport initially and just assuming the position of higher value--recently I've found other hooks that like better, but don't want them floating around the internet cause everyone who rolls with me hears me use them):

This venue’s not much better. On my initial lap, I take note of a dark-haired girl in a seated 4 set (? – can’t quite tell) at the corner of the bar. Two guys, two girls. Chode out on my initial approach and walk past them to the back patio. Hit my vape for a sec. We head back inside. I post up on the wall behind them and chat with my wing, keeping an eye on the dynamics between the guys and the girls in the group. One of the guys is keeping to himself; the other, a short, jacked dude with a red hat, knows the girls but seems pretty ungrounded. My girl, especially, seems pretty bleh’ed out by him. He peels off for a second to talk to his boy.

At the same time, dark-haired girl and her friend (6ish) start jumping up and down. So I roll in and open them from behind but angled closer to the girl I want (who, conveniently, was farther from the red hat guy).

“You two guys are the most excited people in here.” Breaking rapport.

“We are excited. It’s my birthday,” says the 6.

“Happy birthday.” Hug the friend. Start talking at them. Nothing special, literally just running my mouth. Think I say something about, “Why are you in a country bar? If it was my birthday, I’d be blah blah blah.” Birthday girl is happy for the attention; my girl is hot girl blasé and will only look at me out of the corner of her eye occasionally. But I’m standing hella close and she doesn’t flinch when I touch her shoulder a couple times conversationally—so I at least have an audition lol. Somewhere in all this, wing enters set on the birthday girl.

I’m out of state, so I’m pretty choppy—every line comes out about half a second slower than it should and there are some noticeable pauses in between the exchange below where I just fall back on eye contact:

To my girl: “It’s your friend’s birthday. Why are you over here hiding in the ****ing corner.”

“Wha-Well, there’s all those people over there.”

“What?”—like this is the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard in my life.

“No, all the people are over there and there’s nobody over here.”

“Antisocial. I’ve never seen you here before.“

Small spike. She explains that she never goes out. A little small talk that I can tell isn’t moving things anywhere. Shots arrive for the birthday girl. Birthday girl accuses my girl of trying to take the bigger one.

“She did. I totally saw her. She swapped them.” To my girl, “That’s ****ed up, taking the bigger shot on your friend’s birthday.”

Birthday girl downs hers. They don’t have salt for my girl (tequila), so she can’t take her shot.

“Tequila. You’re crazy.”

She explains that she doesn’t usually drink tequila, but her friend wanted to drink it. She explains that her friend is already drunk. Social hook point.

“So you’re babysitting.”

She thinks about it. “Yeah, I’m just really protective. My friend said that she was just gonna have a couple drinks but she’s already had 7.” She talks a little more. Starts making more solid eye contact.

“You were totally the little emo girl in high school.”

Here she spikes hard and qualifies. “No, why would you say that?”

“Oh, so you were the preppy—”

“Noo-o“

“What?”

“Well, I just did my own thing.”

Pull her in. “You were totally the little girl smoking cigarettes outside by the bus loop.”

Spike. “Yes!! I do smoke cigarettes, actually.”

“Such a little badass.” Pause—stare her down.

“I am a badass.”

“You’re the girl that all the guys think is all sweet and innocent, but you’re a total heartbreaker.”

“No, I’m actually the one who always gets my heart broken…Wait, what makes you think I was emo?”

“Black hair. Black shirt. Black eyelashes.”

Spike. “They’re real!!”

 

[fastlife]

If hot women don't care about looks how come online dating is so detrimental?

Don't know, don't use it. Really hot girls aren't on there anyway unless it's to plug their IG or OF (every guy I know who uses OLD IRL bangs 5s, 6s, some 7s, and maybe an 8 when he gets really, really super lucky and usually ends up with a fvcked up self-image as well as skewed perception of female hotness that's bound by rationalizations of what's attainable to him and what he feels entitled to--but I'm sure there are exceptions). Most girls keep their default age set to end at 25 or w/e, so non-starter for me.

It's not all about looks but once you get the looks down you're able to practice more on your game which is still important

You look exactly the same whether a girl makes eye contact with you pre-approach or plays with her hair or w/e or you tap her on the shoulder when she's standing at the bar.

Forget about women for a second , why would you want to walk around with a low smv regardless?
When your SMV is raised, everybody treats you better

This has nothing to do with anything. I have a high SMV (tho mostly looks and status in groups where I was already established--took me much longer to learn how to establish status wherever I am, mostly thru subcomms and getting ppl to qualify, very little money thru the peak of my game career)--I got blown tf for months when I first started cold approaching. But once I learned some verbal game, practiced my subcomms, practiced my tonality, etc., I got better results and more consistent results than I did before when I relied on IOIs and social circle. I also know guys IRL who don't have high SMV--if you're defining SMV by looks, money, status--both naturals and from the community who fvck way out of their league--again just with verbal game, subcomms, and being proactive. Ofc looks, money, status helps but behavior + game trumps those by a wide margin (until you start getting into celebrity or minor celebrity status). I know dozens of good looking, jacked, and/or rich dudes who don't fvck at all or fvck "age appropriate" women or girls who are way below what they should be able to get--but that's what happens when you let the market choose you instead of choosing your market. Just like most guys work sh1tty jobs (even if they pay well) they don't like because they settle for what's easily attainable without much risk and rationalize the rest.

 

[mrskinnypantz]

[QUOTE="fastlife, post: 2934210,

This has nothing to do with anything. I hve a high SMV (tho mostly looks and status in groups where I was already established--took me much longer to learn how to establish status wherever I am, mostly thru subcomms and getting ppl to qualify, very little money thru the peak of my game career)--I got blown tf for months when I first started cold approaching. But once I learned some verbal game, practiced my subcomms, practiced my tonality, etc., I got better results and more consistent results than I did before when I relied on IOIs and social circle. I also know guys IRL who don't have high SMV--if you're defining SMV by looks, money, status--both naturals and from the community who fvck way out of their league--again just with verbal game, subcomms, and being proactive. Ofc looks, money, status helps but behavior + game trumps those by a wide margin (until you start getting into celebrity or minor celebrity status). I know dozens of good looking, jacked, and/or rich dudes who don't fvck at all or fvck "age appropriate" women or girls who are way below what they should be able to get--but that's what happens when you let the market choose you instead of choosing your market. Just like most guys work sh1tty jobs (even if they pay well) they don't like because they settle for what's easily attainable without much risk and rationalize the rest.
[/QUOTE]

Some people you can lead to water but can't make them drink.

It just goes to show the difference of somebody who chooses to work harder, and not smarter.
Sure you can apply for better jobs , or you can learn skills that make you the catch and have better jobs apply for you
The choice is yours

 

[fastlife]

It just goes to show the difference of somebody who chooses to work harder, and not smarter.
Sure you can apply for better jobs , or you can learn skills that make you the catch and have better jobs apply for you
The choice is yours

Or you can just assume more risk or build the right relationships and make more money more quickly than you could on any "career" trajectory or "paying your dues"--sometimes beyond what you're "qualified" for by your resume or past achievements (outside of being an NFL player or some sh1t). If we're dealing in metaphors lol.

At the end of the day, playing it safe is playing it safe--you're trading maximum returns for stability and comfort. Which is fine. In economic terms, where failure can be disastrous, it can even be the right play. But we're talking about approaching girls who don't smile at you or make eye contact--where the costs are pretty much non-existent.

 

[Striker_93]

when guys start throwing around words like "autistic" and "retard" and "only the strong survive" you know they're losing the argument.

I was the one who made the "only the strong survive" comment and I was not involved in yall argument so idk wtf you mentioned that for with ya dumbass.

 

[fastlife]

I was the one who made the "only the strong survive" comment and I was not involved in yall argument so idk wtf you mentioned that for with ya dumbass.

You right. Your first post was circumspect & spot on. I was spray-and-praying--didn't mean to hit you with collateral damage. Stand by the rest of my argument.

 

[Striker_93]

didn't mean to hit you with collateral damage.

Just started shooting and hit a innocent bystander lol

 

[spred]

Keep it simple: all high interest women will continue to give you signals for a long time. Even the stupidest of men will catch on in these cases.