The counseling profession and their mindgames.

[ThunderMaverick]

Dear All,


As the dust settles on this issue,I am seeing it more clearly.The relationship between Jophil and HB was essentially that between a Teacher and Student,at all times our boy held the high ground....all things being equal I suspect that Jo was boxing above his weight with this Bird,the status hewas able to transfer within their social circle gave HB a wonderful ego boost....with the passage of time,our Dancing Dolly has been able to lift her game,lets face it a year with a Dance instructor as a partner can make a passable Dancer out of any bumble footed oaf.


So a year into the relationship it is time to stretch her wings and fly,the realisation that there are so many other opportunities on offer to a HB has perhaps caused her to expand her horizons,but it is still not time to put the Pilot overboard, a committment to Dancing makes her remarkably respectful of Jo,but there are other needs throbbing in her heart,time to break out..


In her tiny little mind,there is this idea,perhaps she may eat her cake and still have it after all....But Jo is in a very powerful position,he can pick and choose amongst all the New Girls even pull a 22 Year Old,A wary old Dog with scars to prove it Jo realises there is "no bigger tyrant than the Servant who would be Master in your home"no room for discussion or conciliation,no need for it either...So Jo goes home to lick his wounds and sublimate his obsession in a new love,lets face it at the current Market Rates,Pvussy for Dance Lessons,leave him laughing all the way to the bank...


Jo has played this game impeccably,he seems to have convinced himself and most of our Brothers that it is all Leannes fault,several of you have caricatured her and she now stands identified four square with all we hate in the FemiNazi movement...that is not right.


HB was ready to move on,when an idea reaches its time it is like a Powder Keg just waiting for the Match,any match....Lessons?The life of a DJ has no place for progressing relationships beyond a certain stage,it is a life of sequential bondings....Many of you young Blokes are only playing lip service to the DJ life style,you will eventually settle for the full on monogamous life style,kids, roses over the Archway the whole freekin disaster.


So unless you can convey status as Jo does play it cool

Since you're not doing it, every time you post I'll space your paragraphs for you, so they're easier for EVERYONE to read instead of skipping over.

 

[Scaramouche]

Dear Rollo,
Thirty eight Rules?why the Man in the Sky only had ten......
"By acknowledging a petty problem you give it existence and credibility. The more attention you pay an enemy, the stronger you make him; and a small mistake is often made worse and more visible when you try to fix it. It is sometimes best to leave things alone. If there is something you want but cannot have, show contempt for it. The less interest you reveal, the more superior you seem."
Like the Curates egg part of this are fine,but as a Maxim it is wanting....We have all had a pebble in our Shoe,some of us get niggling irritations in anothers eccentricities,even old Thunder,my punctuation caused him to quite choke on his Coco Pops this morning,but look a paragraph break.
To ignore ones adversary in the hope that he will go away is burying ones head in the sand....Sound Intelligence is the basis of any viable strategy....Churchill when asked what was the leading factor in winning the last War,replied "breaking the Enigma Codes",certainly the Battle of Britain would have been lost without Radar.
At a more personal level,Montgomery kept a Photo Of Rommel on his washstand and would look at it every morning to try and puzzle out what that Wily old Fox would be up to today.
Know your Enemy,understand what makes him tick....But Hells Bells,if a relationship is worth maintaining,its a bit pointless to let it get to such a stage that you have to ask your lover"In 25 words tell me what you want out of this relationship"what comes next?100 lines?

 

[Sinistar]

Interesting thread - finally had a chance to read it all. After going through it I had one observation for Jophil and I find myself wanting to offer what I would have done (yeah, advice).

First, the observation (my perception). You have mentioned your exBPD several times. Cutting to the chase, it's as if you can beat this therapist at her game you will in some way have found balance again after the ordeal in 2006. Maybe I'm way off. Maybe I'm getting to my real point. This reminded me of something I needed to check in myself after a relationship from He11 which read right out of a Cluster 'B' case study of a HPD. As I took time to get clear (but never to let the lessons learned slip away) I discovered that it would be very easy to take out the sh!t from the Vampire on the next woman (or women) if things weren't right. Doing this would be bad enough. But knowing it could turn into payback for a HPD he11ride really made stop and re-think things. I realized then and there that doing that to the next gal would actually be worse than what the HPD had put me through (or I allowed myself to take). I knew I needed to always be aware of this be on my guard for that sh!t coming out.

Are you doing a bit of this right now? I'm not sure. I think I'm picking up on that vibe though and you can just call me nuts if you're sure that I'm off on a tangent. BTW, this is in no way to get you to feel sorry for her and stop or cave in (read on and you'll see) but rather to make you aware just in case that demon found a way out.

That being said, the actions of your HB (one with whom you've mentioned being in a LTR for about a year) have crossed that line that should never be crossed. I can't tell you what to do. I can tell you what I would have done.

The entire time I would have been extremely c0cky, funny and kidded about it. Giving it zero energy and never once acknowledging the therapist. The 4-guy thing was meant figuratively and I think most of the readers got it so once again, spin it back but all in fun but just enough to make her just a bit unsure (ie I wonder if he'll actually go out with another woman?).

However, given HB's intentions I think it would have reached the point you've reached anyway given her wants combined with her new "coach". The point where I would have bailed was the s3xual fillibuster. Just the fact she was willing to parrot and also carry out the suggestion of the therapist (stop s3x, LJBF) was the final proof needed to indicate there would never be long term potential. At best there will always be tests like these over and over again because she will always search for ways to erode the frame. She knows eventually she'll wear a guy down OR use his unwillingness to comply as a guilt free excuse to swing to another branch and leave you feeling the guilt

If it was me, I would do what I rarely do with women - switch into serious mode. She would have heard a statement - not a discussion:

Jophil: HB7, we are both mature adults. You know just as well as I do that men need s3x for healthy relationships to continue. Yet for some reason, after a year of being intimate you have decided to give up on a crucial part of any healthy relationship. At the same time, when asked you have provided no answers to my questions regarding your rather abrupt change in behaviour. I am now making the last decision which is in the best interest for both of us. This relationship is over. And being just friends will just drag out longer. So you know, the world is filled with men who will respond to your changes in the way you had hoped. However, I know that neither you or I would have been truly happy had I even once joined their ranks. For some reason, you changed and it ended this? I do hope that you find what you're looking for now. Your things are packed, I'll help you carry them out to your car.

I'd never mention the therapist in the statement. I'd Never call again. I'd Never answer the phone. I'd Delete every text and email. And you know what, we'd both be better people for it because I knew it passed that terminal point and ended it. Meanwhile, her plan has totally failed. She knows the real cause - the therapist - not trusting her gut and following someone else.

The therapist can console and assure her I was not the right guy (but even she will know deep down that I was one of the rare ones that stands my ground no matter what). HB will feel tremendous guilt for a good amount of time. However, this is not punishment. It is her wake up call back to the natural order she was nudged and shamed into fighting. Plus HB learns a very valuable lesson. DJ's are pretty friggin' rare. If she meets another one (not very likely) she'll know to accept and compliment his life, not test away. Along the way, she'll really tear apart the first couple of chumps which will just reminder her more and more of the mistake she made here. And hopefully a few of those chumps will get knocked out of the matrix long enough to see that they've been in a slumber their entire lives.

Or, the game can just be played longer. She will eventually give in. Will it really be be worth it though? Unless a guy actually walks, they know they ultimately have us because there we are still giving them attention, needing s3x from them. They are masters at watching actions and a man being around after he should have walked is like the strong side giving into the weak sides ultimatum thereby giving them the power they never actually had.

Advice aside, good luck my friend. Lots of important lessons being demonstrated here.

ps. I don't think the therapist is quite as powerful a figure here as you are thinking. Had your HB really been cozy and happy, she never would have sought out this type of advice in the first place. I think your HB was feeling the pressure to move the relationship to a next step. The therapist's suggestions and tactics would almost be entertaining if it weren't for the fact a relationship seems to be failing.

 

[jophil28]

Sinistar- when I first limped onto this forum at the end of 2006 after a relationship failure with my first Cluster B whack, you were one of the first guys to tell me what I needed to hear.
You just did it again.
Gracias amigo.

 

[jophil28]

Vigilance and willingness to sacrifice is always the price of freedom.

Indeed. That truth is often forgotten in our headlong quest for 'self actualization '.

 

[squirrels]

Indeed it has.

I guess that HB ( and Ms Psych) was hoping that I would fall on my sword , and cave in - after all what man would readily go without sex, right ?
I recognized that the suggestion that HB and I start over and date from scratch was a power move. Starting over gave HB the opportunity to shape and whittle me, and control the development of the relationship with Leanne acting as coach and manager in the background .

I knew that putting HB in the FZ popped that balloon.

I was dating this girl once for about a year...she was trying at every turn to crowbar me into a relationship, even though I had told her repeatedly I wasn't interested in one...you know the usual gimmicks, springing family on me, trying to get me to spend the night, etc, etc...

One night after I had to kick her out of my bed (I hate doing that, but she should know better than to try and stay), she called me the next morning crying and complaining about how "I just can't be having sex when I'm not in a committed relationship!!" She expected the same thing out of me...that I was so desperate for the sex that I would cave in and say, "OK baby, you're the one for me."

Truth is, she had put on a bit of weight since I met her and the sex was getting to where I couldn't even keep it up for her. And even if it was mind-blowing, I didn't want her schizo-ass around all the time.

So I told her, "OK, I can respect that. If having sex outside of a committed relationship hurts you that much, let's just date for a while without having sex."

She says, "OK" and we hang up. Not 5 minutes later she calls back and EXPLODES at me! "What the f**k do you mean, we're not going to have sex?! I'm not doing that!! That's crazy!!" I calmly say, "OK, I guess that's it then."

This is MEN's fault. Women are so used to being able to control men by regulating the flow of sex that they behave in these inexplicable manners and expect men to just bend to their wills. When they find a man who doesn't, they collapse into an inexplicable state of confusion.

Jo, I think you set yourself up for the sex-power-play with your comments to her about, "being relegated to sex-slave". You know she took that back to Leanne and Leanne suggested trying to use the 'nani as leverage. You handled it perfectly, of course, but if you hadn't set yourself up for that, you might've gotten more mileage out of this girl. Not sure if that's even what you want...I'm with you that the whole situation has just become too complicated to try to "salvage".

 

[ZenGodMod]

I'm so late in this thread! Shame on me, always the last.

It's obvious this relationship is over and Jophil is just dragging the dead.
If she was ever really serious about this relationship, then just the idea of not being exclusive would have been disrespectful to the HB7-ish herself.

An idea when presented to her from a male perspective was too ridicules for her. Jophil, you still entertain her? Or you've dropped the Axes already?

 

[jophil28]

This is MEN's fault. Women are so used to being able to control men by regulating the flow of sex that they behave in these inexplicable manners and expect men to just bend to their wills. When they find a man who doesn't, they collapse into an inexplicable state of confusion.

Weekend FR ( down here we are about 20 hours ahead of Pacific Time in Nth America).

Short version-

HB has called twice ( Saturday) basically asking ," Where are we at ?" I have evaded the question so far. However I did find myself asking her whether she considered Leanna and Leanne's 'advice' helpful based on the results so far.
No answer from HB that made much sense.

Went out Salsa dancing with hot Zana from Macedonia Friday night. THis 22 year old has PERFECT light olive skin and front page magazine looks. We laughed and danced for four hours and she told me a zillion times how she" loved this with Jophil - so much fun !"
Talk about rejuvenation of mind, body and spirit - mine, that is. I will see her again in the studio Tuesday night.

Now, a little drama story. I asked a single woman( call her SW) in my social group out last Thursday night - the date in fact was for last night (Saturday) I suggested Thai and maybe some music/dancing later.. She jumped at the offer .

Anyway I made a reservation for 7:30pm at a favorite eatery called Bow Thai. ha.

Called SW and said I would collect her at ten minutes before 7pm. I mention that the restaurant table is booked for 7:30 and we need to drive for a half hour or so.
So I ring her bell at the agreed time and she opens the door in a towel, hair in rollers and talking on the phone to "suzie" - her best girl. I know Suzie - unfortunately. She is one of those women who are always "in trouble" with unavailable men. Suzie lives in a world of fantasy about married guys, dropkicks and playas.
SW continues to chat to Suzie up and down the hall as I circle the living room looking at the clock.
SW is putting little effort into getting dressed and mostly is involved in gasping at Suzie's latest drama.
I am circling faster and getting irritated.
By 7:10pm I heard SW doing bathroom activities but still not at the earrings and makeup stage. We are going to be late- very late.

A switch flipped to OFF inside me. I slowly walked to her front door, opened it and walked to my Lexus in her drive and backed out. I guess that I drove for about five minutes before my phone rang. I ignored it. Two texts followed . Arrived at Bow Thai and ordered my favorite. Two more texts from SW and one VM. Jungle curry tasted great.

I was seated very near a party of about twenty people who were celebrating a quite attrctive woman's 40th birthday. They invited me to join them and the rest of the night was legendary. Got the birthday girl's # and had a blast.

SW started calling again about 1am -this time with the assistance of a bottle of the Barossa Valleys finest Chardonnay. I'm watching the late movie. She was all "sorry that I held you up but Suzie was a mess...why did you walk out ?" She really did not see the serious disrespect in what she did. I just said thank you for the call and hung up.

I expect a call or ten from SW today after she has had time to concoct a defense and somehow shift the blame across to me...

I swear , they do not grow wiser as they grow older.

 

[window]

Jophil that was a great move, most guys would have hung around for 1/2 in the living room only for her to come out and say sorry about that hope you didn't mind...she could have quite easily said to here friend "look I've got company coming around to pick me up and I need to be ready will call you tomorrow."

 

[zekko]

A switch flipped to OFF inside me. I slowly walked to her front door, opened it and walked to my Lexus in her drive and backed out.

Damn, you are an @ss. Well done.

 

[ThunderMaverick]

I rarely have people that I really admire.

Jo, you're in that small category. Your resolve is a joy to read about. You're a hero to me.

 

[Tazman]

I have to say Jophil, you're actions are inspiring. I don't think I know a single guy with the balls to do what you just did, but I do know from having to force myself to do things like this that the payoff in peace of mind, self respect and the effect it has on some women, is priceless.

I try to advise my closest friends but I've come to the conclusion that men who stand their ground and follow their own path are an endangered species. They can't see the forest for the trees.

 

[jophil28]

Jo,

I really think something about BPD women affects men in this manner. I too have become intolerant of poor behaviour since leaving my BPD ex. The funny thing is, I used to be completely intolerant of it in my late teens and early 20's. Then something happened to me along the way and I was somehow transformed (at least partially) into the "Nice Guy". When I finally snapped and ended it with the BPD, it felt liberating.

Yes I agree. My 'experience' with a BPD/HPD whack also drove me to formulate a set of vows, and an SOP to to live by. I realized that there are quite a few women on the single scene who have acquired an 'attitude' of arrogance and superiority. They expect to be pedestal dwellers their whole lives . However, after my BPD crash and burn in 2006, I was forced to examine why we men so readily comply with women's wishes, and why we do so without questioning the wisdom of doing so.
This forum endlessly challenges our deeply entrenched beliefs.

When I came on this forum I was bruised and beat up from trying to create a relationship with a woman who played all the BPD/HPD songs. At the time I was just doing what I had always done with women, BUT with a BPD woman the regular 'rules of engagement' only work for a few weeks, and then she switches into full BPD mode.. Unlike 'normal' women, BPD women run away from impending intimacy with a guy. Then when she feels the distance (that she created) she panics and tries to draw him back into her web. Soon she again feels engulfed by the expectations of being in a couple, so she fakes up some nonsense to create a separation to relieve her feelings of being overwhelmed and trapped.. And the cycle repeats and repeats ... until you find the courage and the will to leave, or she dumps you because she feels that anyone who still wants her after all she has done is not worth having.

Life with a BPD woman is the worst rollercoaster, but usually the best sex imaginable until she uses sex rationing to punish, reward or control you. By this time the frame is so damaged that it can never be repaired or reclaimed by you.

I do not believe that I have a bigger set of "balls" that any of you guys. What I do have is a self crafted set of rules and guidelines to apply to disrespectful situations with women. And I am willing to use them , sometimes ruthlessly if the situation warrants it.

Curiously, as much as I disagree with a lot of STR8up's stuff, his "walk away" strategy made sense with me after I got past the belief that "walking away" was a kind of surrender, or admission of defeat.

I now embrace the power of silence and the power of just walking away from a woman who is acting poorly.

BTW, My HB from the early part of this thread is calling a few times a day - I'm going to deal with her as soon as I figure out what I want from her.

MY hot 22 year old Latin dancer is texting asking for more .

And I just received a text from SW apologizing and gushing .

THis is gonna be a busy week.

 

[Tazman]

It's funny how the experiences of someone your age is actually breathing new life into this forum as of late. I mention your age because usually you don't see the kind of behavior you're displaying in men at that range. By then most have just given up or are so deeply entrenched that the anticipation of sex on their birthday, from their wives, is like buying a new sports car......

 

[ThunderMaverick]

MY hot 22 year old Latin dancer is texting asking for more .

And I just received a text from SW apologizing and gushing .

THis is gonna be a busy week.

Please don't lump yourself in with STR8UP. He wouldn't have to balls to do what you did this week. I'm serious man, you're a hero to me. The more I read the more charged up I get and think to myself "Why the f*ck can't I do this too?!"

You're right, I can.

 

[jophil28]

The more I read the more charged up I get and think to myself "Why the f*ck can't I do this too?!"

You're right, I can.

Yes you can -so just do it.
IT just takes a decision to NOT be obedient when it does not suit you or violates your rules of engagement.
A pivotal moment of reclamation.

We are raised and conditioned to 'please' women.
Well, one in particular- deal ole mom. Saying NO to your mother was almost a mortal sin - right ? And that is where it all started.
Our mothers would reward our compliance with treats, a trip to the beach, or perhaps TV privileges and punish offenses harshly, or refer the worst violations to Sheriff Dad..

Curiously we now discover that the same compliance with the demands ,wants and expectations of other adult women brings exploitation and demands from her for more, more, more.

We are not kids any more gentlemen, and we do not need Mommie's approval for our survival.

 

[jophil28]

Please don't lump yourself in with STR8UP. He wouldn't have to balls to do what you did this week. I'm serious man, you're a hero to me. The more I read the more charged up I get and think to myself "Why the f*ck can't I do this too?!"

You're right, I can.

Make no mistake here - victory comes from struggle, and struggle always brings damage and loss.

Are you willing to bear the wounds that are inevitable on the battlefield ?

Paradoxically, the worst battle is that conflict within .

 

[Jitterbug]

Respect!

If only more men do that, women would never annoy us with their BS again.

The power of silence and walking away is the best one a DJ has. Which btw is the reason why marriage is such a bad deal for us, because it takes that power away (or rather, attaches a huge, life-turning-upside-down cost to its execution).

Talking about dear ol' Mum, I was trained from a young age by Her to say Yes to her and No to every other woman. Even when I had no Game and no knowledge of this place, I always placed self-respect above everything and would walk away when the other party is being unreasonable or showing disrespect. After the relationship with my HPD ex - whom I dumped after the 2nd time she pulled the distance BS on me (their excuse to run away from relationship expectations) - I'm even more militant about it.

Make no mistake here - victory comes from struggle, and struggle always brings damage and loss.

Are you willing to bear the wounds that are inevitable on the battlefield ?

Paradoxically, the worst battle is that conflict within .

I don't know how calm & collected you would be with all that experience, but for me, as I walk away, I'm always fairly pissed off (although I rarely show that on my face) but know that I'm doing what's best for myself.

 

[Scaramouche]

Dear All,
Yes Jophil has breathed life into this Forum,certainly the best Blow by Blower we have had for a long while.
Without criticising Jo I stand in awe of his consummate skills,he has amazed most of you guys bacause he is doing what you would like to do,he is a true DJ...But it doesn't take as much balls for him...Why,because he has options and why does he have options?well for a start he has a background as a Professional Engineer,a tough game where he has to live with his mistakes and perform an apprenticeship negotiating with some of the hardest Bvastards on Earth.
Then Jo is Socially skilled,his powers of communication enable him to crush any one with his Pen,the words of logic that come from him can counter all but the best....but Jo is no lily livered intellectual,he has fire in his belly.
Encounters with a seriously evil BPD have left him hardbitten,cynical and ever wary of the gentler svex.
But the Joker in Jophils hand again at the risk of being tedious,is his position within his Dancing circle.....Anyone wants to Know their Mambo moves Ask Jo,he has respect and that's what Women like to be associated with.
Dancing is a skill we are possibly hard wired to respect,a feeling rooted in our primitive origins,it suggests,the Health and vigour of a virile person,a prime candidate for breeding,at the least today it says this Guy is alive.
The point of this little rant....What I am saying is commendable as Jos actions are,and much as we should strive to emulate his persona,when faced with similar situations,those who have the Balls without his skill and personality,will just gain a Pyrric victory,like cutting off their nose to spite their face.

 

[jophil28]

Aww shucks, I'm blushing.

Thanks, Terry.