The Brotherhood of Iron

[CarlitosWay]

If you guys are going to compete against each other, you should probably compare conventional (not sumo) unequipped deadlifts. That is the true test of strength because there's no way to cheat, other than hitching. Not like the squat, where we've got guys doing curtsies with 500 lbs who can't pull 315 off the floor.

I don't do much sumo yet why how would it not be true strength if two people use the same exercise be it sumos or convs? They're both real great except one can be a lot more comfortable for people and has a smaller ROM.

 

[CarlitosWay]

Yup, most weightlifters to me are much more impressive than most powerlifters. These guys go deep, with a narrow stance, raw, with more weight than a lot of powerlifters do to quarter depth with a wide stance in a multi ply suit out of a monolift with.

Compare the videos Jitterbug posted to this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUrhOWcby3U

They call that a squat. :crackup: Now if you want to see true squats in powerlifting, watch USAPL or IPF meets. The multi ply feds are a joke.

Don't even know why I'm trying to defend plers LOL. Yet from what I see and hear all feds have some judges who pass some squats that are a bit high here or there. So I don't see a problem with the lifters, it's the JUDGES . Yet I doubt you nor Jitterbug can even touch any weight close to what those guys are doing even if you use their form, so I don't understand all the hate on the powerlifters. LOL. You guys bringing up olympic lifters and vids of them against powerlifters, which is like comparing olympic skiing to olympic snowboarding. Two different sports/techniques in the same exact element.

 

[Jitterbug]

I think sumo is fine. The ROM looks smaller (actually not much) but it isn't any easier. Sumo provides a better leverage for certain people, myself included, who have relatively shorter arms compared to torso and who have stronger legs than back. Conventional DL's sequence of lifting is back-legs-back whereas sumo is legs-back. I've done both, and sumo allows me to get closer to the bar (due to short arms) and keeps my chest up. My 1RMs in both are identical, but the one done with sumo looks more comfortable for my body.

I agree with Kerpal's sentiment though. DL is a great demonstration of strength because there's really no "cheat" way to lift a heavy weight off the floor to lockout. Even DL suits don't help.

So CarlitosWay, what do you think about the Oly lifters?

As for your PLer squatting 1000lbs, don't make me pull out Paul Anderson's photos...

 

[CarlitosWay]

I think sumo is fine. The ROM looks smaller (actually not much) but it isn't any easier. Sumo provides a better leverage for certain people, myself included, who have relatively shorter arms compared to torso and who have stronger legs than back. Conventional DL's sequence of lifting is back-legs-back whereas sumo is legs-back. I've done both, and sumo allows me to get closer to the bar (due to short arms) and keeps my chest up. My 1RMs in both are identical, but the one done with sumo looks more comfortable for my body.

I agree with Kerpal's sentiment though. DL is a great demonstration of strength because there's really no "cheat" way to lift a heavy weight off the floor to lockout. Even DL suits don't help.

So CarlitosWay, what do you think about the Oly lifters?

As for your PLer squatting 1000lbs, don't make me pull out Paul Anderson's photos...

Ummm I imagine Paul outweighed those two guys I posted by a real good amount. Still guys was outrageously strong, especially in those times and a genetic anomaly + hard worker at that.

As for Oly lifters. I have nothing against them and never will. If you read through all my posts never once bash any lifting style whatsoever. Everyone has different goals. I learn things from Oly lifters, powerlifters and bodybuilders. For instance I like front squats cause that's what builds the freaky quad size on most Olympic lifters, learned from powerlifters to take real good care of your wrists/elbows/shoulders (e.g. wrist wraps, scapulae work) and I've learned all about proper nutrition and training for size from bodybuilders.

Close mindedness is what hurts most people in any endeavor.

 

[Kerpal]

Since Kerpal is an e-expert on a powerlifting squat. har har har. I'm curious as to what he thinks of Kirk Kirk Karwoski 1000X2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oo1tU1YqPp0

Also here, if you don't think this is parallel there is something seriously wrong with your judgment.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_kfDyIBMUA

Karkowski’s were true squats. I couldn’t tell the 2nd one from that angle though.

I don't do much sumo yet why how would it not be true strength if two people use the same exercise be it sumos or convs? They're both real great except one can be a lot more comfortable for people and has a smaller ROM.

I don’t have anything against sumo style but I don’t think you can compare it to conventional. They are two totally different lifts so it’s kind of unfair to compare numbers between them. I saw a study where they compared them, and IIRC the sumo guys had 25-40% less ROM. It would be like if I ran 50 meters and you ran 70 meters and I said I was faster because I finished in less time. They are just different events.

Don't even know why I'm trying to defend plers LOL. Yet from what I see and hear all feds have some judges who pass some squats that are a bit high here or there. So I don't see a problem with the lifters, it's the JUDGES .

Yes, that’s what I said in my previous post. The rule is the same across feds, but the judges in the multi ply feds let the lifters get away with doing quarter/half squats. At the APF meet I went to, I did not see a single lifter perform a full squat.

Yet I doubt you nor Jitterbug can even touch any weight close to what those guys are doing even if you use their form, so I don't understand all the hate on the powerlifters. LOL.

Again, this is a red herring. How much Jitterbug or I squat is completely irrelevant to this discussion.

You guys bringing up olympic lifters and vids of them against powerlifters, which is like comparing olympic skiing to olympic snowboarding. Two different sports/techniques in the same exact element.

Right, but both do squats. And the weightlifters do a much harder style of squat, and many can still move as much or more weight as poweflifters in the same weight class. If they switched to a powerlifting style squat they could do even more weight.

 

[Jitterbug]

I don’t have anything against sumo style but I don’t think you can compare it to conventional. They are two totally different lifts so it’s kind of unfair to compare numbers between them. I saw a study where they compared them, and IIRC the sumo guys had 25-40% less ROM. It would be like if I ran 50 meters and you ran 70 meters and I said I was faster because I finished in less time. They are just different events.

The deadlift is judged as picking up a heavy weight from the floor to standing up straight, hip & arm lockout. How you do it is not taken into account as a showcase of strength. Those two ways may be different but they're trying to achieve the same goal. I don't think the running analogy is correct. The ROMs are different but so are the leverages. A person may be strong in one but not stronger in another. If sumo's reduced ROM were that beneficial, the record deadlifts would all be done sumo style, but this isn't the case (top DLs right now are done conventional style). A guy with long arms & strong back will be worse at sumo than conventional.

Right, but both do squats. And the weightlifters do a much harder style of squat, and many can still move as much or more weight as poweflifters in the same weight class. If they switched to a powerlifting style squat they could do even more weight.

Yup.

Guys, read this post by Glenn Pendlay:

http://www.board.crossfit.com/showpost.php?p=404418&postcount=93

It's him discussing high bar (OL) vs low bar (PL) squats.

Here's the relevant quote:

2) As I see it, the heart of this argument is really about the carry-over of LB and HB squats to other things, specifically OL. Here are a few general observations about carry-over.

When I was a good LB squatter, that strength did not carry over well to HB or front squats, as evidenced by some of the numbers above. When later in my lifting career, I became a decent HB squatter, it directly and immedietly carried over to being able to do very respectable numbers in the LB squat. My front squat of 550lbX5reps and HB back squat of 606lbsX10 reps, both done without a belt, these sets done about a month apart, allowed me to do several very, very respectable LB squats, and LB box squats with no practice or training on either the LB squat or the LB box squat. My feeling was that strength gained from HB squatting was just more "transferable" to other things than strength gained from LB squatting. Through many conversations with others, and a fair bit of experience coaching ex-powerlifters in the Olympic lifts, I have found that this seems to be quite universal. HB, Olympic style squatting will make you strong at the LB squat, LB squatting with a more bent over stance and less depth will NOT carry over well to the HB, Olympic style squat. I think the carry over from one to another bears considering, because what what we are really talking about here is the carry over from one type of squat or another to a completely different exercise.


Fred Hatfield, AKA "Dr. Squat" who is a respected authority on strength training, has written a couple of very good books on the subject, and who competed at a fairly high level in both gymnastics and OL before achieving a 1008lb squat at 44 years of age and I believe around 255lbs, has argued extensively that not only should the HB squat be used EXCLUSIVELY for the training of athletes, but its qualities of carry over are such that even POWERLIFTERS who are actually competing with a low bar, bent over, only to parallel and sometimes wide stance squat, should in fact do HB, Olympic style squats for much of the off season. In a rough quote of his words, HB squats build strength, LB squats demonstrate it.

Case closed.

 

[Kerpal]

The deadlift is judged as picking up a heavy weight from the floor to standing up straight, hip & arm lockout. How you do it is not taken into account as a showcase of strength. Those two ways may be different but they're trying to achieve the same goal.

I feel that people using sumo are basically exploiting a loophole in the rules. The problem is that in meets you have to use everything you can within the rules just to stay competitive. Therefore I'd like to see the rules edited so that the arms must stay outside the legs, like they did with the Crossfit total.

I don't think the running analogy is correct. The ROMs are different but so are the leverages. A person may be strong in one but not stronger in another. If sumo's reduced ROM were that beneficial, the record deadlifts would all be done sumo style, but this isn't the case (top DLs right now are done conventional style). A guy with long arms & strong back will be worse at sumo than conventional.

If you train them both equally, you should be stronger sumo style because the ROM is shorter. I don't really see why having long arms and a strong back would make you worse at sumo, the long arms would only make the ROM even shorter sumo style and having a strong back never hurts.

I don't think we can look at the very few top guys (Bolton, Konstantinovs, Magnusson etc) and extrapolate from there. Especially because I believe the conventional style has been more popular until lately. I rarely see sumo in old meet footage, but now it seems most lifters are using sumo style in competition. At the meet I attended, I only saw 2 lifters pull conventional the entire time, and it was a large meet.

I don't have anything against sumo deadlifts. I think they're a good exercise. I just think it's unfair to compare 2 lifts when one has the bar moving 40% farther than the other. They are just totally different lifts IMO.

 

[Jitterbug]

Sumo is new to Americans but Europeans (which those 3 tops guys are) have used it for ages. In fact, it's the American PLers who saw the Europeans pull that way at meets in Europe & came back home & popularised it in Nth America.

If it were better than conventional DL regardless of leverage then those top guys would use it, but it's not. You know how far PLers will go to get a few extra pounds.

If you train them both equally, you should be stronger sumo style because the ROM is shorter. I don't really see why having long arms and a strong back would make you worse at sumo, the long arms would only make the ROM even shorter sumo style and having a strong back never hurts.

Not strong back, but strongER back compared to legs. You still need a strong back for sumo.

The hardest part of the DL is getting the weight off the ground. A guy with stronger back than legs will benefit from conventional, because the firing sequence is back-legs-back, i.e he uses his back to lift the weight off the ground first, then the legs carry it up till the back locks it out. A guy with stronger legs than back will benefit from sumo, as the firing sequence is legs-back: legs (and hips) box-squat the weight up half way then the back finishes it off. A guy with long arms won't have the same leg leverage for the first part of the lift as a guy with short arms does, since he has to stand up more instead of starting from a stronger box squat position. He will also reduce the back leverage advantage by using a sumo stance.

I don't know what your leverage is like, but give sumo a try to see if it's actually easier for you. I used to think the same way but after visiting a group of 50 lifters, each DLing between 200kg and 273.5kg, and seeing that they all DL differently because of different body leverages, I changed my mind.

For the record, my sumo is 172.5kg and conv is 170kg.

 

[cuzza]

Half of this thread feels like a Youtube video of someone doing some insane lift, with a trillion people crying about ''proper form'' (no such thing as). Granted it's a LOT more intelligent, but still.

 

[CarlitosWay]

Half of this thread feels like a Youtube video of someone doing some insane lift, with a trillion people crying about ''proper form'' (no such thing as). Granted it's a LOT more intelligent, but still.

This is exactly what I didn't want MY thread turning into, a whole bunch of rants about "this or that is better" "or they don't know what they're doing". Where has the camaraderie gone? What the powerlifters, oly lifters and bodybuilders of the old days had!?!! They all used to frequent the same gyms and no one nit picked each other or what they did, they all just trained together and helped each other out and encouraged others even though they had different goals!!!!

I was hoping my thread could be a place people could post their own personal records and others could chime in with advice or tips and encouragement.:yes:

 

[ATP]

This is exactly what I didn't want MY thread turning into, a whole bunch of rants about "this or that is better" "or they don't know what they're doing". Where has the camaraderie gone? What the powerlifters, oly lifters and bodybuilders of the old days had!?!! They all used to frequent the same gyms and no one nit picked each other or what they did, they all just trained together and helped each other out and encouraged others even though they had different goals!!!!

I was hoping my thread could be a place people could post their own personal records and others could chime in with advice or tips and encouragement.:yes:

This post was very good to read. There is nothing more annoying than the know-it-all-nit-picking people that frequent some forums. It is impossible to actually post on some places because everyone slap you in the face as soon as you have a training philosophy that doesn't match what is "in" atm. A few years ago it was MAX-OT, then came dogg crap, 5x5, now it's 5-3-1 I think.

That's why I love this forum, people are not stuck up *******s and people actually is a lot nicer here than other places. You're one of the guys who makes this forum a better place carlitos. You have your set goal, everyone is trying to be strong, you lift to sculpt a nice body (from what I understand). In a world of compound and basic exercises it's pretty daring to use as much isolation as you do, and the enthusiasm you got for lifting really is contagious. :rockon:

So lets make this a thread where we help each other out.

 

[CarlitosWay]

This post was very good to read. There is nothing more annoying than the know-it-all-nit-picking people that frequent some forums. It is impossible to actually post on some places because everyone slap you in the face as soon as you have a training philosophy that doesn't match what is "in" atm. A few years ago it was MAX-OT, then came dogg crap, 5x5, now it's 5-3-1 I think.

That's why I love this forum, people are not stuck up *******s and people actually is a lot nicer here than other places. You're one of the guys who makes this forum a better place carlitos. You have your set goal, everyone is trying to be strong, you lift to sculpt a nice body (from what I understand). In a world of compound and basic exercises it's pretty daring to use as much isolation as you do, and the enthusiasm you got for lifting really is contagious. :rockon:

So lets make this a thread where we help each other out.

Thanks brother.

Even though my main goal is size. I'd still like to get strong in some things like my front squat. So I'm going to start front squatting more. 3pps for reps is a short term goal of mine.

So I'm going to start hitting ab work a lot more and like mentioned here add some ez bar rollouts/ab rollouts.

I like your way of training. You're doing what works for you and what you enjoy/keeps you motivated. It's all that matters in the end eh?

EDIT: hit post limit...

but look here we have a strong man and IFBB bodybuilder training together. A beautiful sight.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zigcjpM-_64

I know kerpal and jitterbug will like these two vids. Insane.
772 lb raw olympic style back squat
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xFm9q1HBKY

600 lb front squats
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMBsGbWBlX8&feature=related

Strongman Konstantinov doing a 775 lb high bar squat
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5mEXcQrbMo

 

[cuzza]

Good to read, definitely agree about nit-picking. The 'proper form' debate does irritate me in general. Proper form is the technique that allows you to progress on an exercise without incurring injury. If that includes a shorter ROM, more body english or whatever, that's up to you. Try telling Matt Kroc that his dumbell rows aren't optimum for growth.

 

[CarlitosWay]

After watching some vids of Dorian Yates training an IFBB pro. I've been seriously working on my technique/slowing down the negative.

I had other training days but didnt log them, so a bit hazy on what I exactly did those other ones.

last week I tried sled drags though out in 25-30 degree weather . Serious cramps in legs!!!

worked up to 4 plates + 25 dragging it around prob a few hundred feet.

than did leg curls/supersetted with calve raises
Than leg press,
6ppsX12
went for 9 pps FAIL ha (was trying to keep up with a much bigger guy)

dropped to 8ppsX5

Was a quick workout my legs were ****ing fried though.

yesterday

INCLINE BARBELL
BARX10
135X8
185X2
185X4
REST PAUSE
X1
DROP 50 LBS
135X4

Ego is taking a hit with drop in weights, but I was repping out 205X4 before. Yet not deep and not very controlled IMO. I should be back up to that weight with better form and more size on my chest.

HS press
2ppsX8
rest pause
x1

db incline flys
32Xfailure
37 lbs x failure

unilateral HS preacher curls
45Xfailure +forced reps/each side

standing ez bar curls
85Xfailure
Rest pause
X1

 

[CarlitosWay]

Here's the first part of " A week in the Dungeon" look to your right and you have all the other parts. Real awesome vids. DORIAN YATES IS AWESOME!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EtDhnvG8p1k&feature=related

 

[frenchbeauty]

**** I watched the first part of that Dorian Yates series.. he's one scary mofo !

 

[cuzza]

Yeah, I like Dorian because he's such a down to earth, regular guy. I find many bodybuilders 'showy' and a bit weird, but he's just like a typical guy you'd expect to find down at the pub, just with a ridiculously intense work ethic.

 

[ATP]

Thanks brother.

Even though my main goal is size. I'd still like to get strong in some things like my front squat. So I'm going to start front squatting more. 3pps for reps is a short term goal of mine.

So I'm going to start hitting ab work a lot more and like mentioned here add some ez bar rollouts/ab rollouts.

I like your way of training. You're doing what works for you and what you enjoy/keeps you motivated. It's all that matters in the end eh?

EDIT: hit post limit...

but look here we have a strong man and IFBB bodybuilder training together. A beautiful sight.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zigcjpM-_64

I know kerpal and jitterbug will like these two vids. Insane.
772 lb raw olympic style back squat
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xFm9q1HBKY

600 lb front squats
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMBsGbWBlX8&feature=related

Strongman Konstantinov doing a 775 lb high bar squat
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5mEXcQrbMo

Holey moley that some insane ****! :yes:

140 kg front squat would be mighty impressive if you got it. I've never seen anyone in my gym push more than 120 kg and that was with ****ty form. Actually I've never seen anyone push more than 140 in a back squat in my gym. 6x100 is my record for FS I think. Anyways, good luck with hitting that. Front squats are just a step away from olympic lifting.

Haha, aye indeed, following the allmighty "what do I feel like to train today" style. Bench press three times a week or a widowmaker... who knows what will happen down the road.

Somehow brotherhood of iron made me think of this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CFdvw9nPcd8

 

[I-tallionStallion]

Somehow brotherhood of iron made me think of this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CFdvw9nPcd8

Hahaha YES! MANOWAR! :rockon: Reciting "Glory, Majesty, Unity" should be a pre-requiste for all who want to post on this here topic haha.

I must say, CarlitosWay, after doing DC routines with cables, smith, machines, hacksquats with rest pausing and static holds to boot, I am becoming stronger and bigger than before. You doing a 365lb Hacksquat is pretty wicked imo.

Hopefully I'll be doing some Shelby soon too.

 

[ATP]

After watching some vids of Dorian Yates training an IFBB pro. I've been seriously working on my technique/slowing down the negative.

INCLINE BARBELL
BARX10
135X8
185X2
185X4
REST PAUSE
X1
DROP 50 LBS
135X4

Ego is taking a hit with drop in weights, but I was repping out 205X4 before. Yet not deep and not very controlled IMO. I should be back up to that weight with better form and more size on my chest.

X1

Aye that's the main thing. I love in blood and guts how they are like

"You'll see that Dorian's form is textbook perfect he controls the weight on the way down and then pushes it up in a precise non explosive style. He uses full range of motion on all exercises. His aim is to promote the greatest amount of stress on the muscle, not to exercise his ego."

Many people could learn a lot from adhearing to his principe, Yates ****ing rocks! It's good you've taken the time to perfect the form and have control over the bar. In the long run I think you'll gain a lot from doing that instead of popping a shoulder and end up spend several months not being able to bench at all.

Weights are not bad though, just a tad bit low reps for optimal hypertrophy?

Hahaha YES! MANOWAR! Reciting "Glory, Majesty, Unity" should be a pre-requiste for all who want to post on this here topic haha.

Ah great another Manowar fan on here! There is no other band that pumps me up more before a workout that manowar. I like their style that they don't give a ****. GMU is damn awesome as well, I'll second that motion of yours