The Brotherhood of Iron

[CarlitosWay]

These are what my back squats look like when I go heavy....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcQur8kS5uk&feature=related

See all that forward lean? To me it's just asking for an injury in the long run.

Now this is some one who was built for back squats.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=az49UMdY1h0&feature=related

Notice the difference? How upright one guy is and how the other guy is using a lot more lower back to heave up the weight?

 

[Drum&Bass]

ok I think I have a better understanding of whats going on now.

The guy in the 1st video is using near maximal weight and while he does have a penchant for hard work he has been training his squats incorrectly.

Right off the bat....He has weak back erectors which means he shouldnt be doing maximal weight for less reps..he should be doing light weight for minimal to moderate reps (whatever that means).

2nd...High Bar back squatting is NOT recommended unless your back is strong enough to maintain erect posture at all times.

3rd..Heavy High bar back squats aka ATG Squats are NOT ever recommended for high reps unless your lower back can maintain erect posture under long periods of uncomfortable tension !!

4th...His foot placement is all wrong for a high bar squat also if you notice his knees they buckle inwards, a sign of weak hips and long term training with improper hip abduction technique.

He is the perfect example of a weight lifter that only cares about going heavier, getting stronger and growing bigger without any consideration for movement and how different muscle groups relate to performance which also carries over into aesthetic and safety. He may or may not get hurt with the way he is currently lifting but why increase the odds of injury ??

He should definitely be squatting but he should taking a more elementary/learning process mindset before he lifts heavy.

Guy in the 2nd video has so/so technique which is masked because of the knee wraps and belt but he has MUCH stronger back erectors and hip abduction.

Since this dude is from DC training camp im assuming he has the purpose of hypertrophying his quads (not lifting maximal weight) with pre determined stance and bar position.

My assessments are based on Leverages to lift the heaviest weight in the strongest position your body can safely accommodate not necessarily for growth..but squatting properly with the addition of things your already doing will give you greater results in a speedier amount of time.

Its just a matter of dedicating yourself to get the hang of it.

p.s. There will always be a breakdown in form when using near max or maximal effort. Form also breaks down during fatigue !

 

[CarlitosWay]

ok I think I have a better understanding of whats going on now.

The guy in the 1st video is using near maximal weight and while he does have a penchant for hard work he has been training his squats incorrectly.

Right off the bat....He has weak back erectors which means he shouldnt be doing maximal weight for less reps..he should be doing light weight for minimal to moderate reps (whatever that means).

2nd...High Bar back squatting is NOT recommended unless your back is strong enough to maintain erect posture at all times.

3rd..Heavy High bar back squats aka ATG Squats are NOT ever recommended for high reps unless your lower back can maintain erect posture under long periods of uncomfortable tension !!

4th...His foot placement is all wrong for a high bar squat also if you notice his knees they buckle inwards, a sign of weak hips and long term training with improper hip abduction technique.

He is the perfect example of a weight lifter that only cares about going heavier, getting stronger and growing bigger without any consideration for movement and how different muscle groups relate to performance which also carries over into aesthetic and safety. He may or may not get hurt with the way he is currently lifting but why increase the odds of injury ??

He should definitely be squatting but he should taking a more elementary/learning process mindset before he lifts heavy.

Guy in the 2nd video has so/so technique which is masked because of the knee wraps and belt but he has MUCH stronger back erectors and hip abduction.

Since this dude is from DC training camp im assuming he has the purpose of hypertrophying his quads (not lifting maximal weight) with pre determined stance and bar position.

My assessments are based on Leverages to lift the heaviest weight in the strongest position your body can safely accommodate not necessarily for growth..but squatting properly with the addition of things your already doing will give you greater results in a speedier amount of time.

Its just a matter of dedicating yourself to get the hang of it.

p.s. There will always be a breakdown in form when using near max or maximal effort. Form also breaks down during fatigue !

Well I could use some help getting my front squat up. What kind of ab work and things should I look into, to help get my front squat up? I know a strong core/back is essential for a front squat. I'm doing plenty of rows/rack deadlifts. I'm thinking since I have really long femurs, I should be taking a wider stance. My short ass friend can attest a wider stance helping him get bigger numbers and size on his legs, even tho he's like 5'7 and I'm about 6.

when I remember to hit core work, I'll do lots of hanging leg raises, side cable wood chops, ab machine work or weighted cable ab pulldowns.

Again my main goal is size and strength is secondary.

thanks for the breakdown on the form technique. It's just a lot easier when you have a knowledgeable person right there in the gym with you. you know?

Anyways I'll stick with the front squat and take any pointers you can give me. Since I imagine you can push some pretty big weight on a front squat too, since your pl style squatting big weight.

 

[CarlitosWay]

For all the bodybuilding fans who visit this thread...Take a look here at Kai Greene's new training documentary. The whole first part is here run time around 22 minutes. Very intense and philosophical.

ENJOY
http://videos.bodybuilding.com/watch/58031/kai-greene-a-new-breed-vol-1-overkill

 

[Kerpal]

I don't think the 1st guy's form was that bad. He should probably switch to low bar though if he's going to lean forward that much. He also isn't keeping his back arched throughout the lift. But that was heavy weight to full ROM so his form isn't going to be perfect.

The 2nd guy was doing half squats.

 

[CarlitosWay]

The 2nd guy was doing half squats.

LOLOL are you serious? I'd call those parallel and cause of his stance if he went any deeper he would fall on his ass or do what that first guy was doing....which is asking for an INJURY.

Do you know even know who Justin Harris is? He holds many degrees in regards to human anatomy/physiology. Has powerlifted an elite total. Has won a super heavyweight bodybuilding title. Started and owns a successful nutrition and diet/bodybuilding consultation company.......lol the irony.

 

[Kerpal]

Red herrings. None of those address the fact that those were half squats. Most powerlifters don't go anywhere near full depth in competition.

 

[Drum&Bass]

Powerlifters DO squat at full depth. When you take a wider stance it is impossible to squat butt to calves because the hamstrings dont allow you to go any lower than parallel.

In a closer stance squat your butt can touch your calves because you will be able to fully close the legs and use your hips as a resting support.

Both of theses squats are different depth but both of these squats are as low as physically possible.

 

[EFFORT]

Started and owns a successful nutrition and diet/bodybuilding consultation company.....

+1 for http://www.troponinnutrition.com/ .... I'm currently be trained by him and shelby right now, they REALLY know there stuff.

 

[CarlitosWay]

+1 for http://www.troponinnutrition.com/ .... I'm currently be trained by him and shelby right now, they REALLY know there stuff.

Good stuff man. I train in the same gym show in that vid where Justin Harris is squatting. He used to frequent it a lot, but not so much anymore. Heard he's trying to sell the company or something. Yet, yeah they're awesome and if I could afford it right now, they would definitely be the first people I would call :rockon:

Powerlifters DO squat at full depth. When you take a wider stance it is impossible to squat butt to calves because the hamstrings dont allow you to go any lower than parallel.

In a closer stance squat your butt can touch your calves because you will be able to fully close the legs and use your hips as a resting support.

Both of theses squats are different depth but both of these squats are as low as physically possible.

Thanks for clarifying and describing what I was trying to get across, done a bit more eloquently though ha.

ugh but I can't imagine with a heavy load it being too healthy for the lumbar area if one were to get as deep as shown in the second picture, especially with that area tucking like that.

 

[Kerpal]

Powerlifters DO squat at full depth. When you take a wider stance it is impossible to squat butt to calves because the hamstrings dont allow you to go any lower than parallel.

In a closer stance squat your butt can touch your calves because you will be able to fully close the legs and use your hips as a resting support.

Both of theses squats are different depth but both of these squats are as low as physically possible.

Nah, most powerlifters don't even do a legal squat (top of thigh at hip joint below top of knee). Especially the ones that use a super wide stance (APF, etc) their squats are a joke. You can't even come close to full depth with such a wide stance, your groin would tear.

 

[Quagmire911]

+1 for http://www.troponinnutrition.com/ .... I'm currently be trained by him and shelby right now, they REALLY know there stuff.

Sweet. I like to follow Shelby's articles.

And the Harris squats weren't buried, but they weren't half squats either. 500x16 at that depth is pretty sweet. Some people just do better staying higher, everyone is different. Maybe he couldn't give a rats a** what depth it was.

Carlitos, I'd really recommend hitting ab wheel rollouts. If you don't have a wheel, you can use an ez bar with small plates on them and roll that, or even a barbell if you had too. Progressing from kneeling, to weighted kneeling, to standing rollouts, etc. If you're abs don't kill you the first time after doing them, you didn't do it properly.

I like what I see in here, might not agree with you on everything, but your dedicated and progressing and that's what counts. Just remember to keep upping the rack deads and front squats .

Keep it up!

 

[CarlitosWay]

Nah, most powerlifters don't even do a legal squat (top of thigh at hip joint below top of knee). Especially the ones that use a super wide stance (APF, etc) their squats are a joke. You can't even come close to full depth with such a wide stance, your groin would tear.

You're more than welcome to post some vids in here on how to do some "properly deep squats" with some good weight, your 360X5 would be suffice *crickets chirp* Don't give an excuse about no cam either, as nearly every cell phone nowadays has one, even if ****ty.

How exactly do you know "most powerlifters" don't even do a legal squat? May I ask sir, exactly how many meets have you competed in and how many meets have you been to in person? No vids on youtube or anywhere do not count. Plus many vids obscure what depth they're hitting depending on the angle and such.

Plers are masters of human bio mechanics and will use the best means to lift as much weight as possible, as you indicated in your last statement. Most I see don't squat ass-to-grass but at least hit parallel. Why would they want to go extremely deep anyways when parallel is suffice for the judges? Yet you're making yourself look like a fool in here even with guys like Drum&Bass telling you what's up.

 

[CarlitosWay]

Sweet. I like to follow Shelby's articles.

And the Harris squats weren't buried, but they weren't half squats either. 500x16 at that depth is pretty sweet. Some people just do better staying higher, everyone is different. Maybe he couldn't give a rats a** what depth it was.

Carlitos, I'd really recommend hitting ab wheel rollouts. If you don't have a wheel, you can use an ez bar with small plates on them and roll that, or even a barbell if you had too. Progressing from kneeling, to weighted kneeling, to standing rollouts, etc. If you're abs don't kill you the first time after doing them, you didn't do it properly.

I like what I see in here, might not agree with you on everything, but your dedicated and progressing and that's what counts. Just remember to keep upping the rack deads and front squats .

Keep it up!

Oh nice yeeah willl def give those a go, as I've also had a big ass german bodybuilder recommend ez bar ab roll outs to me also .

What don't you agree with? Just a bit curious, let me have it!!:box: Remember tho, SIZE is my main goal. We're prob around the same strength/size as I have deadlifted 350X5, bb inclined 205X4, and I can front squat 245 and god knows how much I can back squat right now lols. I can hack squat 360X 2 though lol!! but yea machines don't count here .

 

[Kerpal]

You're more than welcome to post some vids in here on how to do some "properly deep squats" with some good weight, your 360X5 would be suffice *crickets chirp* Don't give an excuse about no cam either, as nearly every cell phone nowadays has one, even if ****ty.

Again, red herring. What I do has nothing to do with that guy's squat depth. I could not even do squats and my point would still stand. I actually would post video in my log but I've said a lot of embarrassing things about myself on this board.

Try standing with your legs extremely wide, like with your feet 5" outside shoulder width on each side. Now try to perform a full (top of thigh at hip joint below top of knee) squat. Unless you have ridiculous flexibility, your adductors are just going to tear before you get that deep. Especially when you've got twice as much weight on your back as you could actually perform a full, unequipped squat with.

How exactly do you know "most powerlifters" don't even do a legal squat? May I ask sir, exactly how many meets have you competed in and how many meets have you been to in person? No vids on youtube or anywhere do not count. Plus many vids obscure what depth they're hitting depending on the angle and such.

Why don't videos on youtube count? You can usually clearly see that they are nowhere near full depth. I've only been to one meet, it was an APF meet and not a single lifter came close to performing a full (top of thigh at hip joint below top of knee) squat.

Plers are masters of human bio mechanics and will use the best means to lift as much weight as possible, as you indicated in your last statement. Most I see don't squat ass-to-grass but at least hit parallel. Why would they want to go extremely deep anyways when parallel is suffice for the judges? Yet you're making yourself look like a fool in here even with guys like Drum&Bass telling you what's up.

Actually, "parallel" (whatever that is) is not relevant. I never said they should bounce off their calves, but the top of the thigh at the hip joint must be below the top of the knee. This is pretty much a universal rule, but the judges in most feds let the lifters get away with doing half/quarter squats.

There's no need for personal attacks.

 

[Jitterbug]

You're more than welcome to post some vids in here on how to do some "properly deep squats" with some good weight, your 360X5 would be suffice *crickets chirp* Don't give an excuse about no cam either, as nearly every cell phone nowadays has one, even if ****ty.

How exactly do you know "most powerlifters" don't even do a legal squat? May I ask sir, exactly how many meets have you competed in and how many meets have you been to in person? No vids on youtube or anywhere do not count. Plus many vids obscure what depth they're hitting depending on the angle and such.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_jxTc2ITA8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Y8yKSJbpFI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cryh1S74qlo

Here's some front squat

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XkK9-mnDAy4

And here's everyone's favourite bodybuilders:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6SJf1TcMks

What's that? They're squatting with narrow stance & hitting full depth while doing 20 rep squat? How can that be possible???

Hope that's clear enough for you. Make sure you have glasses on before viewing.

Make sure you note that you're quarter-squatting or half-squatting when we compare our lifts at the end of the year.

 

[Kerpal]

Yup, most weightlifters to me are much more impressive than most powerlifters. These guys go deep, with a narrow stance, raw, with more weight than a lot of powerlifters do to quarter depth with a wide stance in a multi ply suit out of a monolift with.

Compare the videos Jitterbug posted to this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUrhOWcby3U

They call that a squat. :crackup: Now if you want to see true squats in powerlifting, watch USAPL or IPF meets. The multi ply feds are a joke.

 

[Kerpal]

Make sure you note that you're quarter-squatting or half-squatting when we compare our lifts at the end of the year.

If you guys are going to compete against each other, you should probably compare conventional (not sumo) unequipped deadlifts. That is the true test of strength because there's no way to cheat, other than hitching. Not like the squat, where we've got guys doing curtsies with 500 lbs who can't pull 315 off the floor.

 

[CarlitosWay]

Make sure you note that you're quarter-squatting or half-squatting when we compare our lifts at the end of the year.

lmao whatever bub. Even when I first began and was squatting what I now curl and than some (on rippetoes had to start with 85 lb squats) I went deep, even though I had **** form.

 

[CarlitosWay]

Since Kerpal is an e-expert on a powerlifting squat. har har har. I'm curious as to what he thinks of Kirk Kirk Karwoski 1000X2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oo1tU1YqPp0

Also here, if you don't think this is parallel there is something seriously wrong with your judgment.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_kfDyIBMUA