The aftermath of the "Mystery Method" and "The Pickup Artist"

[ketostix]

Because of the way women are programmed by their parents, teachers, society, etc...that's why.

You're trying to turn this into an "either/or" "Black or White" type argument, and thus the whole premise of your argument is flawed.

The is no need to be explicit, although you'd be surprised at how much you can get away with, if you were to ever take off the training wheels and drop the weak-assed opinion openers and tell girls what you're really thinking and what you really want from them.

Of course I make conversation, but I will also tell you that when you approach a woman in a confident, direct, sincere, upfront, non-apologetic manner, and let her know why you are there, she will do 90% of the talking.

Why? Because she has so much to tell the guy she's been waiting a lifetime for, that's why.

Who would she rather talk to, the guy who has the balls to approach her directly, honestly, sincerely, and isn't afraid to compliment her, or the guy who is "needs a female opinion" and then asks her if her nails are fake, and is afraid to compliment her because he fears doing so will "give away his (non-existent) power"?

I find when approaching Women in much the same manner that I live my life, they follow my lead of being open, honest and sincere.

No need to "Neg" and "DHV" and do "Cold Reads" and "The Cube" and all those other gimmicks that attempt to make up for a lack of true, inner game and value.

Women know what's up. Why do you think they dress like that?

So we can ask them their opinion on some BS subject no one gives a damn about?

That has low value written all over it. Straight from the AFC handbook IMO

At some point, somehow, some guys in "the community" conned people into dressing like fags, convinced them to wear nail polish, lots of jewelry, makeup and even "accessorize", open with lame ass lines, hide their interest, convince them that complimenting a girl is like exposing Superman to Kryptonite and a bunch of other BS instead of just stepping up like a Man and telling the girl that he basically wants to get together with her, because that's the # 1 reason Men and Women get together, and the reason why women spend hours shopping and getting ready and going out.

You're just repeating verbatim the Direct community's vague spiel , i.e., "approach a woman in a confident, direct, sincere, upfront, non-apologetic manner, and let her know why you are there, she will do 90% of the talking. Why? Because she has so much to tell the guy she's been waiting a lifetime for, that's why." You think plenty of guys haven't done that and the girl didn't do 90% of the talking or even if she did nothing came from it? If it works so good, again, where are the Direct method's FR and LR?

I'm not trying to defend the MM, but you're the one making it a black or white issue, The MM or Direct. The MM or any other indirect method isn't about usng, "who lies more" or the cube. It's about being a challenge and a mystery basically. I posted a big long post explaining the difference as I see it between Indirect and Direct and you didn't even respond to that. All you want to do is bash the MM and praise Direct.

Women "neg" and DHV all the time, and I bet you a lot of natural guys do too. Indirect is just explaining what is believed that successful guys do and give examples of how to do it.

There's some truth in what you say about gurus and the seduction method marketers, but this stuff was also developed by thousands of other people's free input too. You think they're not peoiple trying to make money off teaching the same philosophy you ascribe to? You're just substitutiing one philosophy, Indirect, for another, Direct.

I know this thread is about the MM but instead of constantly attacking the MM and saying "be a man of value" why not define what that means first then explain how you're suppose to accomplish that beyond making more money.

 

[spesmilitis]

Whatever you do, do not use 'excuse' openers. Like, 'hey, I need a female opinion on something', or 'did you see those girls fighting outside?'. If someone is willing to talk to you, all you have to do is normal opener, you don't need an excuse. 'how are you doing tonight' works just fine. No need to be fancy if you're being fake.

The most pathetic use of the excuse opener was when the chubby guy was using the 'did you just see that fight' while chasing girls at the park. That part was really bad for Mystery as it showed some flaws in the foundation he was giving to those guys.

 

[Mad Manic]

Ketostix I agree with what you are saying, completely. The fact is EVERYONE has to learn how to become good with women one way or another and it isn't magically there from birth to have the skill set to bang a HB10. You have to learn how to operate within this social matrix (this world where there are all these unwritten do's and dont's) and that'll be different for everyone. This is why we should be open minded about everything. Mystery has banged girl after girl after girl from initially being absolutely nothing seduction wise, all from devloping his own model, how he needs to apply it and explained to a tee what happens from open to f-close. It's openers are indirect, so we can categorically say that it has the potential to work. It's all about practise and gaining the skill set. You have to acquire it.

 

[Derek Flint]

Where did I say it was about making more money?

I said one of the benifits of adopting a no excuses, direct lifestyle has led to me getting a better job and making more money.

Get the inner game together and the rest will fall into place, including personal relationships.

And you won't need to tell stories and perform tricks and do cold reads or "DHV" or neg.

Those things are just a substitute for lack of true inner value.

And I can talk with a woman for hours, without having to resort to any of the tricks and tips the community teaches, so if she doesn't do 90% of the talking, it's not an issue although they usually will.

Everyone has different inner issues they need to identify and fix, so no "one size fits all" like many of the methods these gurus are pushing.

The reason many guys fail with women is because they fail at life.

Do you think a guy who is struggling in life will get women by learning MM or any other method?

It's like an overweight guy trying to lose fat in just his gut. You can't "spot reduce" you have to lose weight all over and then the gut will also disappear.

Same with seduction - you can't expect to address just your problems with women while not addressing other parts of your life that are not in order and expect to get women.

Oh, you may get a ONS here and there, but if you don't have some semblance of having your $#!T together, women aren't going to stick around, and probably won't be attracted to you from the beginning.

Guys need to look at the big picture, to be the "total package" and not just try to fix one area of their lives and expect results.

It doesn't work that way.

Guys need to get their house in order, then the rest will fall into place, including personal relationships.

This is why I'm against all these methods that only address the part about women, and do so with things like NLP, C & F, MM or whatever.

As for posting LR and FR's, that is nothing more than validation seeking behavior.

I used to post them way back, but no longer do unless someone asks specifically how I approach.

I don't need to impress a bunch of guys on an internet forum.

And I don't have sex to get validation from women.

The guys who run around bragging about banging this girl and that girl are insecure and are seeking validation.

If you want Direct FR's and LR's, go to a Direct Forum, although you won't see many reports as most of the guys doing Direct don't engage in validation seeking behavior, nor do they feel the need to write such reports to impress others.

Any KJ can write a FR or LR - they are meaningless IMO

I remember when I saw Mystery give a lecture a few years back, before he started the lecture, he showed everyone pictures of all these women that he supposedly had sex with.

He wasn't in very many of the pics with the women, but I knew what he was doing: Trying to create social proof so guys would sign up for his WS but more so, trying to impress and get validation from a bunch of guys to ease his insecurities.

I'm beyond that. I don't need validation. I don't need ego boosts.

I actually returned to this forum to try to help guys so they don't make many of the mistakes I did in my 10+ years in "the community"

I come back here and nothing has changed. The names might be different, but the questions are all the same, as are the attitudes and the misconceptions and the belief that "Peacocking" showing disinterest, that complimenting women will "give away your power" and all that other BS is still being preached here, and guys are still eating it up, and guys are still wondering why they aren't having anywhere near the type of success that they should be having after spending thousands of dollars on Workshops and PU products and books and DVD's and CD's.

The "community" is a big scam designed to separate guys from their money with wild promises and such.

Remember Style and his $3,800 PU DVD's?

How about these Workshops and Boot Camps costing thousands of dollars?

Bottom line is that guys need to address their individual inner issues as well as get their lives in order, then the rest will fall into place.

Attempting to fix one part (personal relationships) while not addressing the other issues won't work.

This is the big flaw with most of the gurus and methods out there, is that they don't teach let alone tell guys that they need to look at the big picture and address everything in their lives that is not in order.

You're just repeating verbatim the Direct community's vague spiel , i.e., "approach a woman in a confident, direct, sincere, upfront, non-apologetic manner, and let her know why you are there, she will do 90% of the talking. Why? Because she has so much to tell the guy she's been waiting a lifetime for, that's why." You think plenty of guys haven't done that and the girl didn't do 90% of the talking or even if she did nothing came from it? If it works so good, again, where are the Direct method's FR and LR?

I'm not trying to defend the MM, but you're the one making it a black or white issue, The MM or Direct. The MM or any other indirect method isn't about usng, "who lies more" or the cube. It's about being a challenge and a mystery basically. I posted a big long post explaining the difference as I see it between Indirect and Direct and you didn't even respond to that. All you want to do is bash the MM and praise Direct.

Women "neg" and DHV all the time, and I bet you a lot of natural guys do too. Indirect is just explaining what is believed that successful guys do and give examples of how to do it.

There's some truth in what you say about gurus and the seduction method marketers, but this stuff was also developed by thousands of other people's free input too. You think they're not peoiple trying to make money off teaching the same philosophy you ascribe to? You're just substitutiing one philosophy, Indirect, for another, Direct.

I know this thread is about the MM but instead of constantly attacking the MM and saying "be a man of value" why not define what that means first then explain how you're suppose to accomplish that beyond making more money.

 

[Soprano]

It's all a plot to wipe "The Community" off the face of the Earth. In the 90's there was a book called "The Rules" That basically was a manual of sh1t-tests for women to run on men. A few years ago "The Game" was published which told everyone about The Community and it's players. NOW The Pickup Artist is available to EVERY person who has access to VH-1. Every person both men and women will watch the show. Men all over the world will ask every woman they encounter if they saw the two women outside fighting. Every woman in the world will offer to buy the guy a drink if he promises to stop telling them stories and then sneak away forever after telling the guy to wait at the bar for their drinks. This will also cause mass pandemonium, dogs and cats will begin sleeping with one another and will cancel out the species. We're all doomed.... :nervous:

cosign

 

[ketostix]

Where did I say it was about making more money?

Well you still haven't said how a guy is suppose to raise his value. You did mention your corvette impressed a woman. And your game if it's as successful as you make it out to be probably depends on going to upscale places, wearing nice clothes etc. Pure conjecture on my part and not saying there's anything wrong with it but admit it if it's true

I said one of the benifits of adopting a no excuses, direct lifestyle has led to me getting a better job and making more money.

I won't argue this point but plenty of Indirect guys already have good jobs and plenty of no excuses direct lifestyle guys are broke

Get the inner game together and the rest will fall into place, including personal relationships.

I won't debate this point too much although I'm sure there's guys with good inner-game and bad outer game that don't get women, and guys with bad inner game and good outer game that do get women.. But since when did Indirect guys say not to improve your inner game and that it wasn't important? We just don't think it's the end all be all. And we believe in working on your inner and outer game concurrently. Success with women helps inner-game and improbves outer game. Besides it's not so easily to improve your inner game. How do you do that?

And you won't need to tell stories and perform tricks and do cold reads or "DHV" or neg.

Well maybe you won't but I never said you had to perform tricks, do cold reads, verbally DHV or neg. I said you may want to DHV, be a challenge and a mystery. In Indiect we don't believe in complimenting a girl and making all our intentions explicit.

Those things are just a substitute for lack of true inner value.

My position is it communicating you have inner value

And I can talk with a woman for hours, without having to resort to any of the tricks and tips the community teaches, so if she doesn't do 90% of the talking, it's not an issue although they usually will.

This is fine. I have a hard time believing you can just go up to any girl you want in a club and just talk to her for hours though. If you want to have sex with her is this getting you that?

Everyone has different inner issues they need to identify and fix, so no "one size fits all" like many of the methods these gurus are pushing.

I agree everyone has their own strengths and weaknesses and their own sticking points and issues. No one size fits all applies to the Direct method and the "it's all inner game" view, too

The reason many guys fail with women is because they fail at life.

A lot of guys that are failures with girls aren't failures in life. You could get into all kinds of theories why someone fails in life.

Do you think a guy who is struggling in life will get women by learning MM or any other method?

I think sometimes they can, but I'm glad you included all methods including Direct. I guess your argument also means every guy that's good with women is a success in life. Your argument is pretty extreme assuming every guy that's struggling to get women must be a failure in life and that you have to make your whole life a success before you can get women. If your point is you have to improve your "inner game" and improve your life in general and it's not good to myopically focus on women then that's a good point. But again why cant you do both at the same time? The debate is how to best accomplish this.

It's like an overweight guy trying to lose fat in just his gut. You can't "spot reduce" you have to lose weight all over and then the gut will also disappear.

Same with seduction - you can't expect to address just your problems with women while not addressing other parts of your life that are not in order and expect to get women.

Oh, you may get a ONS here and there, but if you don't have some semblance of having your $#!T together, women aren't going to stick around, and probably won't be attracted to you from the beginning.

Guys need to look at the big picture, to be the "total package" and not just try to fix one area of their lives and expect results.

It doesn't work that way.

Guys need to get their house in order, then the rest will fall into place, including personal relationships.


This is why I'm against all these methods that only address the part about women, and do so with things like NLP, C & F, MM or whatever.

This is a repeat of your previous arguments so my couter arguments apply here too. I can see you don't believe in "fake it until you make it" or doing several things concurrently.


As for posting LR and FR's, that is nothing more than validation seeking behavior.

It's also a learning and teaching behavior

I used to post them way back, but no longer do unless someone asks specifically how I approach.

I don't need to impress a bunch of guys on an internet forum.

How about to teach and give information based on a real life encounter instead just from theory and opinion? And to also to give oneself credibility. I'm not asking you to post FR but I'm not the one disparinging them.



And I don't have sex to get validation from women.

The guys who run around bragging about banging this girl and that girl are insecure and are seeking validation.

There's guys like that no question. But again it's also about spreading information for the purpose of learning and improving. I got say, you do a lot of bragging, not about having sex or with FR/LR but you do subtly brag about your success with women.

If you want Direct FR's and LR's, go to a Direct Forum, although you won't see many reports as most of the guys doing Direct don't engage in validation seeking behavior, nor do they feel the need to write such reports to impress others.

Or perhaps it's because they don't approach, don't get layed and their method doesn't work? Seems like a disadvantage to not have FR's.

Any KJ can write a FR or LR - they are meaningless IMO

KJ's are more likely to not write FR/LR but write everything else, too. I think a method that doesn't have evidence of FR's and LR's is meaningless.

I remember when I saw Mystery give a lecture a few years back, before he started the lecture, he showed everyone pictures of all these women that he supposedly had sex with.

He wasn't in very many of the pics with the women, but I knew what he was doing: Trying to create social proof so guys would sign up for his WS but more so, trying to impress and get validation from a bunch of guys to ease his insecurities.

I don't doubt any of this or disagree, but this isn't conclusive proof that everything he says is wrong. I'm not really a big fan of Mystery or trying to defend him. I jsut think some things he says are valid and useful.

I'm beyond that. I don't need validation. I don't need ego boosts.

If so, good, I don't either and neither does every person that ascribes to Indirect methods. It's about getting results and improving.

I actually returned to this forum to try to help guys so they don't make many of the mistakes I did in my 10+ years in "the community"

I come back here and nothing has changed. The names might be different, but the questions are all the same, as are the attitudes and the misconceptions and the belief that "Peacocking" showing disinterest, that complimenting women will "give away your power" and all that other BS is still being preached here,

This is where we disagree fundamentally.

and guys are still eating it up, and guys are still wondering why they aren't having anywhere near the type of success that they should be having after spending thousands of dollars on Workshops and PU products and books and DVD's and CD's.

OK you made a point here, but nothing is going to help some guys get what they desire. That's just a cold hard fact. I've never paid for any workshops or PU products. A lot of stuff is free, just like this site is.

The "community" is a big scam designed to separate guys from their money with wild promises and such.

Remember Style and his $3,800 PU DVD's?

How about these Workshops and Boot Camps costing thousands of dollars?

True, but also the Direct community and "it's all about inner game" gurus do the same things.

Bottom line is that guys need to address their individual inner issues as well as get their lives in order, then the rest will fall into place.

OK this is your real point and you're making it again, you attribute the causation for lack of success with women to inner issues and not having one's life in order. If they fix that then women will fall in place. I've already address this point. So how do you suggest people do that?



Attempting to fix one part (personal relationships) while not addressing the other issues won't work.

This is the big flaw with most of the gurus and methods out there, is that they don't teach let alone tell guys that they need to look at the big picture and address everything in their lives that is not in order.

I just disagree with you. Women aren't that deep. I believe they're more shallow, superficial and concerned with appearance. And they're emotionally driven.

 

[Mad Manic]

I just disagree with you. Women aren't that deep. I believe they're more shallow, superficial and concerned with appearance. And they're emotionally driven.

Agreed. And I don't agree with Derek either, because having a good job, good looks, confidence, some friends, etc. aren't a ticket to bedding attractive women. They help, but there are enough guys out there who have problems with women despite having these things. And to be fair most guys are pretty similar in terms of their life anyway; standard job, some mates on the side, normal home, or if younger a typical college student or whatever. So how do you convey this higher value over the others through your inner game? Easier said than done.