The aftermath of the "Mystery Method" and "The Pickup Artist"

[DonJoseCantosie]

I understand what ur saying....yes...it became complicated for a reason BUT in terms of at this point, being this complicated...i think has just become a little overboard.

 

[Mad Manic]

I understand what ur saying....yes...it became complicated for a reason BUT in terms of at this point, being this complicated...i think has just become a little overboard.

Fair enough, yes maybe it's gone overboard but hey if people are willing to get good good at interacting with women to a tee, I salute them. It's their choice and becoming good with women is actually the MOST importat part of a man's life, he's genetically wired to spread his seed.

Interacting well with women in modern society one way or another has to be learnt. You're not born with the skill set to get a HB10 of today's society into bed. There are no such thing as 'born naturals', naturals mean people who have developed the skill set at a young age easily thanks to good genetics and environment.

 

[Interceptor]

Derek, you said:

Anyone could use that time to better themselves and become a man of high value than practicing gimmicks to give the illusion of being high value.

And I agree. We should be better spending that money.
BUT...
Again, we have to understand that there are males out there who have absolutely NO IDEA what to do with women. They are totally, and helplessly clueless.
Now, IMO most of the guys that can afford a MM bootcamp should be making bank pretty well.
Which means that these guys hsould be slightly high value for the financial resources they have.
So why aren't they happy already?
Why, with all that money are they still miserable?

Well, they need female companionship, and after being losers and celibate these guys just aren't going to live that life anymore.
They made a decison to change thta part of their lives.
And for most, they're happy just being able to talk with a girl, forget about F Closing FFS!
These guys are clueless. Keep that in mind. They 'll be happy with anything at this point.

Here's somethign else that is imprtant to keep in mind.
There are actually a lot of high value, confident and comfortable being "themselves." guys.
There are plenty of guys like that out there.
I know a lot of guys who are confident, and true to themselves.

But they're not getting laid.

MM is for "standing out."

Keep that in mind.

What is to differentiate YOU (figuratively speaking) from some other genuine and confident guy??

Hmmm...??

What do YOU have to offer that spark the interest and curiosity in a female to the point that she is seriously considering going home with YOU?


"Well,I'm, confident and um..um...I'm genuine. And um....I'm easy going and fun..I think..."

Standing out from the (chump) crowd is a crucial point in BUILDING on INITIAL ATTRACTION. To the point that that attraction turns into ....

SEXUAL INTEREST.

EDIT: I just wanted to add that I'm not really a MM fanboy, but I will give credit where credit is due. And don't see the need to tear these guys down.
Is there a possibility of too much hype not enough results??
Maybe.
Are there other methods out there that can give you results too?
Yes. Definitely.
RSD, Juggler's , Zan's , Xuma's , DeAngelo is still good, and I like Michael W too. They all offer good stuff.
The thing is, we should look at the things they offer, and go with is feeling right for us personally.
What gives US "results"?
And go with that.
So you create your OWN "Method."

 

[Mad Manic]

And I agree. We shoudl be better spending that money/
BUT...
Again, we have to understand that there ar emales out there who have absolutely NI IDEA what to do with women. They are totally, and helplessly clueless.
Now, IMO most of the guys that can afford a MM bootcamp should be making bank pretty well.
Which means that these guys hsould be slightly high value for the financial resources they have.
So why aren't they happy already?
Why, with all that money are they still miserable?

Well, they need female companionship, and after being loser and celibate these guys just aren't going to live that life anymore.
They made a decison to change thta part o ftheir lives.
And for most, they're happy just being able to talk with a girl, forget about F Closing FFS!
These guys are clueless. Keep that in mind.

Here's somethign else that is imprtant to keep in mind.
There are actually a lot of high value, confident and comfortable being "themselves."
I know a lot of guys who are confident, and true to themselves.

But they're not getting laid.

MM is for "standing out."

Keep that in mind.

What is to differentiate YOU (figuratively speaking) from some other genuine and confident guy??

Hmmm...??

What do YOU have to offer that spark the interest and curiosity in a female to the point that she is seriously considering going home with YOU?


"Well,I'm, confident and um..um...I'm genuine. And um....I'm easy going and fun..I think..."

Standing out from the (chump) crowd is a crucial point in BUILDING on INITIAL ATTRACTION. To the point that that attraction turns into ....

SEXUAL INTEREST.

Totally agree. Having good qualities isn't a free ticket to getting laid. You can be good looking, confident, comfortable and still not get laid. Believe me I KNOW. It's competitive out here. Women are more picky than ever and their pinned value by society has resulted in the dynamic we have going on.

The reason I know is because you can have these qualities and still not have the skill set to open a woman and end up having sex with her. Good looks + Direct Approach Confidence + Good At Chatting and Flirting still doesn't mean you WILL get laid. It helps greatly but if there's flaws, there are flaws.

 

[00Kevin]

When are some of you guys going to learn that you only have yourself to blame for your failure with women. :trouble:

Women haven't changed since the dawn of civilization. Times haven't changed and people will continue to act as they always have. People never learn from the lessons of history. The same is true with women. The dumb ones will never learn either.

The basic truth about the DJ method is this, "Become a man and grow the **** up!"

There really isn't any point in wondering if women have caught on to the DJ method or not. There is a natural order of things that won't ever change. All you need to do is understand what your role is as a man in this world.


The first step in being a man is to learn respect. Respect for each other and respect for self. If your woman doesn't show respect for you then rebuke her. If you are out to play games then you are not showing respect either. A real man doesn't play games with women. They either love you or they don't. A man doesn't have to win the heart of a woman. Love doesn't work that way.

The moment you start wondering how to win her heart is the moment you fail as man. A real man doesn't need a game because he is comfortable with himself and demands respect. He either takes a woman seriously or he doesn't.

Ignore the prevailing opinion of the modern world and don't change yourself at the expense of the true natural order.

 

[Mad Manic]

When are some of you guys going to learn that you only have yourself to blame for your failure with women. :trouble:

Women haven't changed since the dawn of civilization. Times haven't changed and people will continue to act as they always have. People never learning from the lessons of history. The same is true with women. They dumb ones will never learn either.

The basic truth about the DJ method is this, "Become a man and grow the **** up!"

There really isn't any point in wondering if women have caught on to the DJ method or not.


The first step in being a man is to learn respect. Respect for each other and respect for self. If your woman doesn't show respect for you then rebuke her. If you are out to play games then you are not showing respect either. A real man doesn't play games with women. They either love you or they don't. A man doesn't have to win the heart of a woman. Love doesn't work that way.

The moment you start wondering how to win her heart is the moment you fail as man. A real man doesn't need a game he is comfortable with himself and demands respect. He either takes a woman seriously or he doesn't.

This whole forum is dedicated to men realising they need to improve with women. Nobody here says they are doing it bang on right. If you're doing it right then you'd get any woman you want. Go out now and shag a HB10 ... yes easier said than done.

Sorry but I can't take you seriously if you say things like women haven't changed since the dawn of civilisation, and times haven't changed etc. I mean, hello, evolution, social conditioning, natural selection, etc. etc.

What you meant to say was that our natural instincts as men and women haven't changed. But thousands of years of change means there's a lot of stuff to learn and a lot of BS to cut through before the "**** me you stud!" is said by her.

I'm off to bed now, been a pleasure posting in this thread anyway.

 

[ChrizZ]

When are some of you guys going to learn that you only have yourself to blame for your failure with women. :trouble:

Women haven't changed since the dawn of civilization. Times haven't changed and people will continue to act as they always have. People never learn from the lessons of history. The same is true with women. The dumb ones will never learn either.

The basic truth about the DJ method is this, "Become a man and grow the **** up!"

There really isn't any point in wondering if women have caught on to the DJ method or not. There is a natural order of things that won't ever change. All you need to do is understand what your role is as a man in this world.


The first step in being a man is to learn respect. Respect for each other and respect for self. If your woman doesn't show respect for you then rebuke her. If you are out to play games then you are not showing respect either. A real man doesn't play games with women. They either love you or they don't. A man doesn't have to win the heart of a woman. Love doesn't work that way.

The moment you start wondering how to win her heart is the moment you fail as man. A real man doesn't need a game because he is comfortable with himself and demands respect. He either takes a woman seriously or he doesn't.

All that sounds great in theory, but you can't just demand respect. You have to earn it. A hot woman isn't going to sleep with you because you respect yourself and feel comfortable in your own skin.
A man HAS to win the heart of a woman while she just sits there and looks pretty and has all the power.
I don't make the rules, but that's the way it is (unfortunately).

 

[Interceptor]

Good points, but from where I see this we're talking abou tmethods of seduction.
That is, methods that will lead from an initial meeting of a female to sex.
We're mainly focusing onm MM.
You're correct on some of you're points, Kevin, but I think you're looking at this from a non seduction perspective.

I think it's great to rebuke a woman who doesn't respect you.
I think it's important to not go after womne who are not attracted to you.
I think it's important to have dignity and self respect, and demand respect from others.

Having said that, knowing women, what makes you stick out form the crowd of genuine, self respecting men who hjave confidence?

Why is she going to sleep with you instead of the other guy?

See where we're going with this?


"Because SHE WILL SEE MY VALUE AS A MAN!!"


Really?


How so?


A real man doesn't play "games" with a woman.
Correct.

BUT....
How do you keep a woman in line?
What do you do when she sh*t tests you?
How do you maintain the sexual attraction and challenge over the long haul?
How do you stay interesting for the long term?
How do you keep the passion going for the long term?


What are these??

Some would say......."These are called "Games".

How do you convey your personal worth and value to her??

"Well, I will show her my integrity as a real masculine Man!!"

That's great.
Do you get laid like that?
There are some who do, some who unfortunately don't.
Integrity's great.
But there are some guys who after a perod of time go "What the fvck is going on? Chicks aren't seeing me as valueable? Why am I not getting laid?"

We're trying to figure this one out.

 

[00Kevin]

All that sounds great in theory, but you can't just demand respect. You have to earn it. A hot woman isn't going to sleep with you because you respect yourself and feel comfortable in your own skin.
A man HAS to win the heart of a woman while she just sits there and looks pretty and has all the power.
I don't make the rules, but that's the way it is (unfortunately).

this is joke right?

 

[Mad Manic]

All that sounds great in theory, but you can't just demand respect. You have to earn it. A hot woman isn't going to sleep with you because you respect yourself and feel comfortable in your own skin.
A man HAS to win the heart of a woman while she just sits there and looks pretty and has all the power.
I don't make the rules, but that's the way it is (unfortunately).

Bingo, end of the day it comes down to having the skill set needed. You have to learn it however it's done, given the genetics you have been given. And Kevin, I understand what you're saying. But there are many men who are confident, can approach, look good, talk well with women but still ain't getting too far. Infact, until I regularly bang HBs I want, in my eyes I have plenty to learn.

 

[ChrizZ]

this is joke right?

I wished it was...

 

[Phyzzle]

Style and many similar people didn't have success with direct game because they couldn't pull it off. Direct game relies a lot on looks/appearance/style, period.

OOh, I'm finding all kinds of videos today.

Here's Juggler, the Guru of Direct Game (from what I recall), but he ends up teaching these guys how to go about opening indirectly, simply because they don't have the looks:

http://attraction-chronicles.blogspot.com/2006/08/watch-seduction-school-episode-video.html

 

[00Kevin]

BUT....
How do you keep a woman in line?
What do you do when she sh*t tests you?
How do you maintain the sexual attraction and challenge over the long haul?
How do you stay interesting for the long term?
How do you keep the passion going for the long term?


What are these??

Some would say......."These are called "Games".

How do you convey your personal worth and value to her??

"Well, I will show her my integrity as a real masculine Man!!"

That's great.
Do you get laid like that?
There are some who do, some who unfortunately don't.
Integrity's great.
But there are some guys who after a perod of time go "What the fvck is going on? Chicks aren't seeing me as valueable? Why am I not getting laid?"

We're trying to figure this one out.

A woman keeps herself in line or you get angry.
A **** test is disrespectfull.
A woman that doesn't see your worth as a man is not a good woman to begin with.

You can't get respect out of a disrespecting bit-ch.

The prevailing idea in modern society is that a man needs to have sex with many women all the time. I just don't find this to be the case. I'm not like that. I would rather have one good woman who will respect me then a bunch to stupid ass hoes. If I wanted hoes I would become a pimp.

When you find a good woman who respects you there is NO work for you to do. It is simple. You just have to figure out where and how you are going to find a woman that respects you.

 

[ChrizZ]

A woman keeps herself in line or you get angry.
A **** test is disrespectfull.
A woman that doesn't see your worth as a man is not a good woman to begin with.

You can't get respect out of a disrespecting bit-ch.

The prevailing idea in modern society is that a man needs to have sex with many women all the time. I just don't find this to be the case. I'm not like that. I would rather have one good woman who will respect me then a bunch to stupid ass hoes. If I wanted hoes I would become a pimp.

When you find a good woman who respects you there is NO work for you to do. It is simple. You just have to figure out where and how you are going to find a woman that respects you.

what do you do in the meantime while you are trying to find a woman that respects you? Those women are out there, but they are rare and it takes a lot of time to find such women because most hot women make use of their "power over AFCs".

Sex is a need, just like food and sleep. Not having sex is NOT good.

 

[Derek Flint]

You are rather close minded mate, sorry, but it's true.

Do you know why the community took off? One of the reasons was that guys weren't physically attractive and dominant enough to get women from being direct. Style and many similar people didn't have success with direct game because they couldn't pull it off. Direct game relies a lot on looks/appearance/style, period. I mainly use it over indirect.

So what did they do, inc. Mystery? Invent all the PUA arsenal we know to go about it indirectly. You're not convinced about it; but it has worked BIG TIME for people who put in the effort of getting good with women, they worked on it, worked on it, improved, and got there in the end.

Now, it appears you're pretty good with women. Your skill set, natural as you call it, as been learnt over your lifetime. You developed interaction skills and have what you have. Your assertiveness, looks/appearance/style, body language etc. comply with success for direct game and no BS.

It works for YOU because it's congruent with you and complies with your skill set. Mystery, Style etc. developed a skill set for indirect game, gimmicks, 'BS' etc. but hey they mastered it to a tee and that serves them and others.

^^^ From A Fan Of Direct Game.

Not closed-minded. I've been in "the community" for well over 10 years, have tried or done every method, including some MM

I can make any method work for me. The point is, I see too many guys looking for the "magic bullet" to seduction, and they see MM as it.

Problem is, that too many guys are ignoring the basics. It's like building a Million dollar Mansion on a flimsy foundation.

Instead of guys getting their lives together, they are doing these quick-fixes which will leave them unfulfilled and looking for the next big thing in the seduction community.

First it was Ross Jeffries, then David D, then TD, then Style, then Mystery.

Who will it be next month, next year that these aspiring PUA's run to next?

The one that will fix all their problems with women?

Too many guys are ignoring the "foundation" of the building, and that is fixing their inner game, getting their lives together and in order.

If they had done that first, they wouldn't need any of these gurus to teach them how to "DHV" because they would be high-value, and wouldn't have to engage in elaborate schemes to raise their value and lower the value of the women they desire.

At this point, I no longer care about other guys. I've tried to share some of my experiences, and I see guys going thru what I went thru over the years in "the community" in various stages on this forum and am trying to save them time, money, frustration and trying to show them the right way to do it, as opposed to the wrong way, or should I say, the shortcut methods, which really in the long run don't do anybody any good, except the person teaching/selling them.

People need to raise their own value thru hard work. Not necessarily job wise, but I mean getting their lives together, to be high value as opposed to learning ways to give the illusion of high value, and "Negging" and all that other BS

BTW, you also said "Direct game relies a lot on looks/appearance/style, period."

You couldn't be more wrong about in your description about "Direct"

Direct isn't even really about Women IMO

Direct is about living a life free of excuses and becoming a Man, the type of Man that women will naturally be attracted to, without routines, and Negs, and DHV's, and IOI's and all that other community BS

Since I dropped the community BS and went with a direct, no excuses life, my life has turned 180 degrees for the better.

It didn't happen overnight. In fact, it happened over about 2-3 year period and is still evolving, but all aspects of my life have greatly improved - health, career, finances, personal relationships, etc... and I've never been happier or better off in my life.

Like I said, I really don't care much anymore about other methods. I left this board some time ago and came back to read about Mystery's TV Show and got back into the discussions, but nothing really changes here, and sadly, many of the guys here don't either.

They go from one guru to the next, buying one DVD set after another, books, CD's, whatever thinking that someday they'll find the right one that they will strike gold with.

It's all BS designed to put $$$ in these guys pockets.

I'd like to see a real book written on the PUA community, about how many of these guys are in cahoots with each other, how they use "shills" and "ringers" in the field during Workshops and Bootcamps, how they talk about their students and call them losers and so on, and how some of these guru's can't even pull HB's themselves.

 

[00Kevin]

what do you do in the meantime while you are trying to find a woman that respects you? Those women are out there, but they are rare and it takes a lot of time to find such women because most hot women make use of their "power".

Sex is a need, just like food and sleep. Not having sex is NOT good.

I'm not gonna

You can't

You are right. Most women in north american are sh-it. That, however; didn't stop me. I listed the qualities I wanted and found a girl from another country. Now, I rarely come to this site. I just don't have any of these problems.

The girl I have is hot, educated, and traditional. The girls i knew before (from canada) all hate me and they hate her.

Just the other day my girl said, "I want to take off your pants" Then she went down in the back seat of my car.

For me, sex is not a problem and either are those disrespecting bi-tches I used to know.

 

[ketostix]

Women know why we approach them.

It's not because we were wondering if they saw those 2 chicks outside fighting over George. Or was it Jorge?

Or any of those other lame ass opinion openers.

We approach women because we want to sex them. They know it, you know it, I know it, everyone knows it.

Then why state the obvious to the girl and make her feel like a slut? Why don't we just go Direct and tell her we want to fvck her? I don't think you understand women and how to pick them up. Even if women know what you're doing is a ruse, they still like it because to put it simply women are fake and like pretending things aren't what they really are. Being Indirect is really just being implicit as opossed to explicit. It's just to build a connection and comfort before trying to escalate and take her home.

I mean you're going to have to make conversation. You can't just stand there and think "you're a man of value", and everything's going to just happen for you. Those opinion openers and routines you keep citing are old examples and most people who use indirect and even MM come up with their own material.

 

[ChrizZ]

You are right. Most women in north american are sh-it. That, however; didn't stop me. I listed the qualities I wanted and found a girl from another country. Now, I rarely come to this site. I just don't have any of these problems.

The girl I have is hot, educated, and traditional. The girls i knew before (from canada) all hate me and they hate her.

Just the other day my girl said, "I want to take off your pants" Then she went down in the back seat of my car.

For me, sex is not a problem and either are those disrespecting bi-tches I used to know.

That's great. I'm honestly happy for you, but what do you tell a guy that is also looking for such a woman, but has no idea what to do in order to get her?

Improve, get a great body and get rich?

All that is great, but that doesn't help you approach women and become a chooser.

 

[Derek Flint]

Then why state the obvious to the girl and make her feel like a slut? Why don't we just go Direct and tell her we want to fvck her? I don't think you understand women and how to pick them up. Even if women know what you're doing is a ruse, they still like it because to put it simply women are fake and like pretending things aren't what they really are. Being Indirect is really just being implicit as opossed to explicit. It's just to build a connection and comfort before trying to escalate and take her home.

I mean you're going to have to make conversation. You can't just stand there and think "you're a man of value", and everything's going to just happen for you. Those opinion openers and routines you keep citing are old examples and most people who use indirect and even MM come up with their own material.

Because of the way women are programmed by their parents, teachers, society, etc...that's why.

You're trying to turn this into an "either/or" "Black or White" type argument, and thus the whole premise of your argument is flawed.

The is no need to be explicit, although you'd be surprised at how much you can get away with, if you were to ever take off the training wheels and drop the weak-assed opinion openers and tell girls what you're really thinking and what you really want from them.

Of course I make conversation, but I will also tell you that when you approach a woman in a confident, direct, sincere, upfront, non-apologetic manner, and let her know why you are there, she will do 90% of the talking.

Why? Because she has so much to tell the guy she's been waiting a lifetime for, that's why.

Who would she rather talk to, the guy who has the balls to approach her directly, honestly, sincerely, and isn't afraid to compliment her, or the guy who is "needs a female opinion" and then asks her if her nails are fake, and is afraid to compliment her because he fears doing so will "give away his (non-existent) power"?

I find when approaching Women in much the same manner that I live my life, they follow my lead of being open, honest and sincere.

No need to "Neg" and "DHV" and do "Cold Reads" and "The Cube" and all those other gimmicks that attempt to make up for a lack of true, inner game and value.

Women know what's up. Why do you think they dress like that?

So we can ask them their opinion on some BS subject no one gives a damn about?

That has low value written all over it. Straight from the AFC handbook IMO

At some point, somehow, some guys in "the community" conned people into dressing like fags, convinced them to wear nail polish, lots of jewelry, makeup and even "accessorize", open with lame ass lines, hide their interest, convince them that complimenting a girl is like exposing Superman to Kryptonite and a bunch of other BS instead of just stepping up like a Man and telling the girl that he basically wants to get together with her, because that's the # 1 reason Men and Women get together, and the reason why women spend hours shopping and getting ready and going out.

 

[ChocolateVanilla]

Having read the venutian arts (mystery method), magic bullets, double your dating plus a whole bunch of other stuff I can guarantee that this stuff and all the exposure of it won't lead to our downfall. The reason is that it is undetectable if you use your own material, simple as that. if you throw out the canned opener and instead use situational openers (stuff on the fly, your own material) and know how to transition well into a story the rest of the stuff is almost undetectable.

If you see a girl in a coffee shop and say an opener you saw on vh1 or some book you will sound like a script. If you go up to her with a smile, nice body posture, energy level up, loud voice and say "hows the coffee" no girl is going to think that you are some PUA wannabe, it is undetectable. Of course it is not as easy as that you better have somthing in your mind to say right after she anwers (what flavor is that?) then just ask her if that is her favorite, what other flavors she likes etc.

Use canned openers at your own risk. If you use your own material you don't have to worry about all the exposure of this stuff on tv since being original is undetectable.

If you use your own openers and get good at using situational openers, then you won't be "exposed". It's not that the women are watching Mystery's show that's going to make MM become more prevalent, it's that more and more guys are going to watch the shows, buy the books, and attend the bootcamps and pretty soon a large number of guys will be using the exact same lines. I wouldn't be surprised if a girl heard "dental floss, before or after you brush" several times in the same night, especially if a film comes out.