good lord fellas. I think all the wanking over this thread has been done. Time to walk away from the never ending analysis. Everyone who posted in here needs to go out and do something and come back and post a field report or something. Christchurch you guys can wank hard over a topic.
Stood up ROYALLY
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Yes, we are mostly in agreement. This is a succinct way of putting what I was basically saying.Danger said:
I agree here too. They do know what is OK behavior, but they will always test the limits and if guys collectively
"OK" any female behavior than it becomes OK. That's the main reason why calling girls out doesn't always work as much as it would because most guys never do and not for the right reasons. So when a guy does it he likes the lone man crying in the wilderness so to speak.
Well generally I would agree but see I never said to get angry or emotional. What I said to do was to cooly call out the BEHAVIOR as basically not being acceptable. But you bring up a good point that goes to your previous point about women knowing what is and isn't OK behavior. A woman knows she misbehaved and although women say they don't like to be called out, they say they don't like a lot of things but secretly do. It's almost like a test, she knows she deserves to be called out and the fact you do can attract her. Again, it depends on context and how you go about doing it. And you should never have to call a woman out more than once for a similar thing.
Good analysis. I would do option 2. I would just simply say, "You know, I don't think I am going to make any further plans with someone so unreliable.." or something to that effect. Then no more discussion, just indifference. It's up to her to decide how much value I'd have and if she wants to prove that she's not "an unreliable person". I could be wrong, but that's how I would do it. I don't really see the downside or my value being lowered with that approach.Danger said:
Str8up, I just think you take indifference too far and use it all the time. Sometimes a guy needs to be a little more proactive.
This is where it gets good. We can indeed have a GREAT discussion about the way a woman's mind works in a case like this. Anyone wishing to try to "call me out" should click the "back" button now.Danger said:
You aren't accounting for the difference between the female mind and the male mind.
Male mind in this situation-
"I guess I fukked up. I'm horny so I better text her."
She doesn't respond.
"She must be fukking someone else."
He is strong and moves on, or he turns into a woman and acts like this-
Female mind in this situation-
"Okay, I know that I did something that I shouldn't have. I don't want to lose the attention and validation, so I need to make him think that I'm sorry. I'll text him and give him some excuses and everything will be better"
He doesn't respond.
"Hmmm....this is odd. Most guys would be on the phone screaming at me. Wonder why he isn't taking the bait? I better call him."
He doesn't respond. (This is where it REALLY gets good!)
"It's been FOUR HOURS and he hasn't called me! OMG....OMG.....what did I do? Is he pissed? Is he with another girl? Is he busy at work? Maybe I DID fukk up.....OMG.....what if his new business venture really takes off and he signs a multi-million dollar deal? What have I done? Does he think I'm getting fat? I wonder how many girls he's banging.....I should call him again...."
He doesn't respond.
"It's 12:30am and he hasn't called me back!!!! He must be with another girl, otherwise he would call me back because that's what guys do. I'm going to call him again! If he isn't with a girl SURELY he will take my call!"
He doesn't respond.
"OMG, OMG,....it's 2:30am. The bars are closed. He HAS to be with another girl. Whaaaaa.......why me.....whaaaaa.....poor me.....whaaaa..................................................................................................................................
---------------
See the difference? Women are SOOOOO fukking insecure. All you have to do is get a little tiny bit inside their head, and left to their own devices it will drive them crazy. Their imagination is their WORST ENEMY. Why do you think chicks go CRAZY for the guy who they like who blows them off? Because it mindfukks the hell out of them, that's why.
thedeparted
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This is perfect. This is what I waited a month for and didn't ever get. She apologized.
Now you do nothing. Now she stews in her discontent. And next time you run into her roommate you have some other hot chick with you. I really wish I could be in your spot now.
Now you do nothing. Now she stews in her discontent. And next time you run into her roommate you have some other hot chick with you. I really wish I could be in your spot now.
thedeparted
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Here's what you can expect from her next:
http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/12/26/missing.baby.hoax/index.html
http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/12/26/missing.baby.hoax/index.html
FYI.....she called this afternoon, I did not answer.
I made a post awhile back about a philosophy I developed for dealing with women, and that's "When in doubt, DO NOTHING." This philosophy applies in business a lot of times as well.
It's all about the transfer of power. When you show the willingness to walk away it gives you the upper hand. Of course, power only transfers if you have SOME form of influence to begin with, but the battle isn't always with the enemy. Sometimes it is with yourself.
Such as when you "call out" a woman who holds all of the cards. The one who needs the other the least holds the most power. If you truly have no foothold, all you are doing by vocalizing your disapproval is handing over a piece of your dignity by acknowledging your powerlessness.
A lot of this ties in with The 48 Laws of Power. I can count at least a half dozen laws that support the idea of walking away.
And speaking of power, although this really isn't about "revenge" or anything, the way you handle a situation like this does have a bearing on how you see yourself. When you relinquish the last little bit of power you have over a woman (she goes from indifference to disdain), I don't know about anyone else, but it makes me feel powerless and weak.
I can't exactly put this feeling into words, but it's like when someone just kicked your ass in a fight and the cops are rolling up. You are laying on the ground bleeding to death, and the guy who beat you up hears the sirens and runs. You yell out to him "Pu$$y! I'm gonna kill you motherfukker". You are trying to SAVE face but what actually happens is that you are giving it away.
I made a post awhile back about a philosophy I developed for dealing with women, and that's "When in doubt, DO NOTHING." This philosophy applies in business a lot of times as well.
It's all about the transfer of power. When you show the willingness to walk away it gives you the upper hand. Of course, power only transfers if you have SOME form of influence to begin with, but the battle isn't always with the enemy. Sometimes it is with yourself.
Such as when you "call out" a woman who holds all of the cards. The one who needs the other the least holds the most power. If you truly have no foothold, all you are doing by vocalizing your disapproval is handing over a piece of your dignity by acknowledging your powerlessness.
A lot of this ties in with The 48 Laws of Power. I can count at least a half dozen laws that support the idea of walking away.
And speaking of power, although this really isn't about "revenge" or anything, the way you handle a situation like this does have a bearing on how you see yourself. When you relinquish the last little bit of power you have over a woman (she goes from indifference to disdain), I don't know about anyone else, but it makes me feel powerless and weak.
I can't exactly put this feeling into words, but it's like when someone just kicked your ass in a fight and the cops are rolling up. You are laying on the ground bleeding to death, and the guy who beat you up hears the sirens and runs. You yell out to him "Pu$$y! I'm gonna kill you motherfukker". You are trying to SAVE face but what actually happens is that you are giving it away.
thedeparted
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Yeah, doing nothing is the best approach. And it goes all the way back to the Taoist philosophy of Lao Tzu and Sun Tzu. I was just rereading this today.
From Tao Te Ching:
And Art of War:
Powerful stuff. It defeated armies. Women stand no chance ;-)
From Tao Te Ching:
The secret waits for the insight
of eyes unclouded by longing;
Those who are bound by desire,
see only the outward container.
of eyes unclouded by longing;
Those who are bound by desire,
see only the outward container.
And Art of War:
Sun Tzu said: The good fighters of old first put
themselves beyond the possibility of defeat, and then
waited for an opportunity of defeating the enemy.
2. To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our
own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy
is provided by the enemy himself [or herself].
themselves beyond the possibility of defeat, and then
waited for an opportunity of defeating the enemy.
2. To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our
own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy
is provided by the enemy himself [or herself].
Powerful stuff. It defeated armies. Women stand no chance ;-)
Dude, this is completely ridiculous! She's a 22 yo baby. MOVE ON! She doesn't care about you in that way. I would say have fun with it but you clearly care too much to do that.
I bet you she is a coke head and i also bet you she takes anti depressants.
Not trying to be rude.
I bet you she is a coke head and i also bet you she takes anti depressants.
Not trying to be rude.
Men need to take their ego's out of the equation. If women disrespect you and/or demonstrate low interest then simply move on. No big deal. In this case though Str8up expected this kind of behaviour so she wasn't doing anything out of the ordinary. We get what we want in life. Appreciate the thread.
Good stuff.thedeparted said:
Goes back to the adversarial nature of interpersonal relationships. Every person in the world is looking out for #1. We might cooperate with others and form collective groups to make the sum greater than its parts, but make no mistake about it....a woman is looking out for HERSELF first.
This really sums it up. The ego will get you into trouble if left unchecked. And calling a woman who is indifferent to you out on poor behavior is nothing more than just that- trying to protect the ego. It serves no constructive purpose. It is a feeble attempt at saving face that inevitably backfires.window said:
But Str8up didn't you say the purpose of nexting a girl without saying a word was so you maintain your dignity. That's about the ego too.STR8UP said:
I don't really see what other end-game purpose ignore her without a word in this case is trying to accomplish. Maybe if you are trying to get her back later, but it's going to be the same disrespectful dynamic in the future. But if you truely were going to next her then the only reason for not telling her she's "unreliable and didn't meet your expectations", is about ego.
I know you make the argument that "punishing" her behavior by implying you're unhappy with her through indifference sends the message better than expressing it. Still either way you have to have some leverage or she has to care for her to care that you are being indifferent. One argument you made is a girl who stands you up doesn't care and you have no leverage with. I don't totally agree that you always have no leverage in that case and you even said yourself that you have some leverage over her. All this talk about indifference vs. calling her out before nexting is really just 6 of one and half a dozen of another if you honestly think about it. You either have some leverage and influence either way or you don't either way.
Now I'm not privy to all your interactions with her, but I think you might be overlooking the fact that had you played it differently with her in the past and been more proactive and expressed your expectations you might never had come to this no call, no show point and had to use indifference.
If it's not at least partly about saving face and ego, then I don't see the end-game goal with ignoring her for awhile. All she's going to do is try to suck you back in one last time to even the score for ignoring her.
That's a good point.ketostix said:
I suppose no matter what it IS about preserving your image of yourself and to an extent possibly your image in the eyes of the woman or others. It's just that when you take an action that accomplishes nothing (calling a woman out when she doesn't care and will not learn from it) it's like handing over some of your life energy that can never be reclaimed, whereas a passive act does not require that you give anything up.
That's the way I see it anyway. Any time I have ever made a last ditch effort to call a woman out when I was done with her I felt like a weak fool. That smirk on her face as she walks away with the satisfaction of knowing that I meant enough to her that her actions got under my skin doesn't sit well with me. And I know how women are.....when they are done with you they are DONE. You are dog crap to her. To the woman who no longer cares for you, you become a sniveling turd the second you open your mouth.
My argument is that you have to "punish" indifference with indifference. You can't punish indifference with words. True indifference is an impenetrable shield.
True, but unless you have a LOT of leverage, your best course of action is to let it go. That's why I'm not even going to bother. No matter what, I am in a position of weakness with this chick. I gain no benefit from playing. More accurately, the minimal prospect of benefit does not justify staying in the game.
And incidentally, the best way to punish a woman who you DO have leverage over is not to TELL her overtly, it's to take your bargaining chip off the table, which is your attention toward her.
That's the thing. Last time she pulled this I DID take the proactive approach. I called her out. She hauled ass to my place and was sitting on my doorstep like a puppy with its tail between its legs. I exercised what little leverage I had, and it got me nowhere.
Which is why you don't give her the satisfaction. She will be stuck having to wait and wonder. No better "punishment" for her, or satisfaction for you when it's a losing proposition either way.
But compare the two options. One is to call her out on her behavior, which may be more about venting one's anger, making it known that you've been bruised. Walking away without a word, however, is more about your own internal strength and self-control. You still may be bruised, but you're not triggered by her bad behavior and driven by the resulting emotions to display diarrhea of the ego and manifest anger. You can hold your head high.
This is true regardless if it's a woman who's disrespected you, a co-worker who's slighted you, a customer who insulted you or a motorist cutting you off on the road.
(there is a place and time for telling others matter-of-factly but tactfully that they've overstepped their boundaries, but this circumstance isn't one of them).
I never suggested showing anger or getting irate. You can go silent but that doesn't mean you aren't upset. The thing is always being silent isn't always the best way to set your boundaries and expectations from other people.Mr. Me said:
Where exactly is the time and place? You're probably going to say in a long-term relationship. We're really just splitting hairs now.
That's right, yet the difference is that you're choosing to not let it get to you. If you simply "must" show her a thing or two, because she's not going to get away with this and you want to give her a piece of your mind! - then you're reacting to your anger. Or, another alternative, which maybe you have in mind is, be more James Bond like in demeanor and just tell Ms. Moneypenny calmly but firmly, that when you make a date with her you expect her to show up. I think the latter is the way to go... but again, not when it's just one or two dates in with someone.
And it's not splitting hairs because it's two way different circumstances.
In a LTR, allegedly, there's a level of commitment to the relationship on the part of both people. You're both in a LTR for what you'd both deem would be the... long term. There's that idea that you both need to be loving toward each other, not adversaries nor completely self-centered. There's a desire to be supportive, understanding and foster an environment in which the other can feel safe harbor.
So, when the other person doesn't keep their end up and transgresses a boundary, sure you have a little talk. There are other ways of handling it if it's not too grievous a violation, but if it's serious, a direct talk is in order.
The point is, in a LTR, there's a basis in which such talk is received by your partner.
Not so when you just have a few dates in with the other person or haven't even gotten to the first date. There is no such commitment to you, she is not your partner, and she may not be a suitable person to be with anyhow if she's flaking. If it starts off with low levels of respect, meaning, they don't care, or don't care that much, then odds are good they're not going to suddenly care just because you spoke to them about it. This is where talking to them will get you "yes, yes, you're right, I'm sorry" and then she does it again, or "wow, you must be insecure" shaming put-downs or "I had to take my mother to the emergency room, you assh@le" bogus excuses designed to make you feel small. And she'll do this because... she doesn't care.
I think one factor that some people don't take into account is that NOT ONLY does a low interest woman not care, she is also a woman, and as such will rarely own up to her actions. So not only do you have a person who is indifferent, but you also have a person who is incapable of taking responsibility.Mr. Me said:
This is the deadly combo that can add insult to injury.
I used to get SOOOOO heated when I would call a chick out on an obvious transgression just to be met with hostility. Chicks aren't sorry they screwed you, they are sorry they get caught. I took me many years to get there, but I finally realized that there isn't a damn thing you can say to get through to someone who has no shame.
jophil28
Master Don Juan
I'll bet that your 22 year old flake would get mighty excited if she ever read this thread.STR8UP said:
Just consider this - a bitty 22 yr old brat with no scruples can trigger off a thread on the MATURE Man's forum which runs 5 pages and almost 100 replies from a collection of sophisticated men of the world who are willing to endlessly debate her actions and how best to react to them.
She is 22 for pete's sake, and she is a low quality female who has no conscience when it comes to interacting with men. Why and how did SHE get all of our energy ?
