Starting you own Business "The Journal"

[Warrior74]

Measurable Action.

Give your Sales guy a list of immediate contacts give a deadline of a week or two and set a meeting to report on that action. Give him 5 contacts and see if he does anything. If he doesn't he's out. (don't tell him this, just test him.) Action is all that matters. This is not a game.

Mid January is too far away. Two weeks. Complete your 5 contact list and report back. If he accomplishes this mission, give him 5 more and two weeks. Do weekly meetings with him to see where you guys are. You have to manage him, don't expect profit to be his only motivator. It doesn't matter if he's closed them or not, as long as he's making steady actionable progress. You can still keep the Mid Jan date for closed sales, but you need to see weekly progress towards that goal. So go ahead and schedule a weekly sales meeting with him.

 

[AAAgent]

If only it were that easy.

We're partners, so demanding things of him although potentially possible is going to be tough. He did start making calls. We sat down yesterday and he stated that this was alot harder than what he expected. I already reached out to 30+ companies a few months ago and i know how hard it is.

We had our first heated debate and although it ended on a positive constructive note, it was very frustrating for the both of us. He now knows that not only will he need to be calling companies, but he'll need to get to some networking events. I'm not sure if setting the bar at 20 companies still is the right move, but we agreed on this before and it was never supposed to be easy. I will still expect 20 companies by mid January. He'll still only receive 1% per 2 companies he gets on board. This is sales, he should know it will require hustling.

We meet with our lawyer in 3 hours and tonight i have drinks with 2 programmers. One programmer is a friend who is bringing a friend who he thinks would be a great addition to our team. The problem is, he already owns his own consulting company designing mobile apps for people. I told the friend that we're not looking to outsource and more looking for someone to join us. He mentioned that we should sit down for drinks and talk about this. Ideally if i can convince them both to join tonight, that would be great. I'll provide an update on this later.
---

Here is an explanation to those of you who might be thinking why don't i just fire people or command them to do things.

I'm the captain of a ship, and I have this great cargo on this ship that if i can get it to sail to multiple different ports, I can make alot of money. The problem is the ship will need a crew to sail and i need to build up my crew with the most capable talent in order to weather the storms ahead. I'll need to convince the majority of the crew members to join without pay and interest in the spoils. It's hard to lead people when they have very little incentive to follow you as you don't pay them.

 

[Warrior74]

If only it were that easy.

We're partners, so demanding things of him although potentially possible is going to be tough. He did start making calls. We sat down yesterday and he stated that this was alot harder than what he expected. I already reached out to 30+ companies a few months ago and i know how hard it is.

We had our first heated debate and although it ended on a positive constructive note, it was very frustrating for the both of us. He now knows that not only will he need to be calling companies, but he'll need to get to some networking events. I'm not sure if setting the bar at 20 companies still is the right move, but we agreed on this before and it was never supposed to be easy. I will still expect 20 companies by mid January. He'll still only receive 1% per 2 companies he gets on board. This is sales, he should know it will require hustling.

We meet with our lawyer in 3 hours and tonight i have drinks with 2 programmers. One programmer is a friend who is bringing a friend who he thinks would be a great addition to our team. The problem is, he already owns his own consulting company designing mobile apps for people. I told the friend that we're not looking to outsource and more looking for someone to join us. He mentioned that we should sit down for drinks and talk about this. Ideally if i can convince them both to join tonight, that would be great. I'll provide an update on this later.
---

Here is an explanation to those of you who might be thinking why don't i just fire people or command them to do things.

I'm the captain of a ship, and I have this great cargo on this ship that if i can get it to sail to multiple different ports, I can make alot of money. The problem is the ship will need a crew to sail and i need to build up my crew with the most capable talent in order to weather the storms ahead. I'll need to convince the majority of the crew members to join without pay and interest in the spoils. It's hard to lead people when they have very little incentive to follow you as you don't pay them.

Yah. Well that's why you find investors and pay them with investors money. I tried the partner thing a few times and let me tell yah, unless you are all on the same page, you are in for rough sailing. I don't believe in partners anymore. Employees, contractors, joint ventures, investors, but not partners.

 

[AAAgent]

Yah. Well that's why you find investors and pay them with investors money. I tried the partner thing a few times and let me tell yah, unless you are all on the same page, you are in for rough sailing. I don't believe in partners anymore. Employees, contractors, joint ventures, investors, but not partners.

Once again, if only it were that easy. Most smart investors don't fund single founder startups. If the business was established and generating some revenue then that might be a different story. Here are the reasons below why VC's, Angles, and Incubators don't fund single founder startups.

1.) Too much work for a single person.
2.) If the founder dies, you lose your whole investment.
3.) If founder leaves, you cannot replace him.

Go take a look at the majority of the companies being funded now, and i guarantee you they will be teams of atleast two where the teams compliment each other. Most business's require many skill sets, upfront capital investment, and alot of work. For one individual to be able to do all that is extremely tough.

Met with the lawyers and the meeting went well. They are actually a sponsor to one of the local incubators that provide 20k in funding but will take a 10% stake non negotiable. I prefer the other top incubators in the country as they have better networks and mentors and can negotiate on stake. Their firm has represented 18 of the total 30 companies that they've funded. He thinks we'll get a bid at any incubator we apply for. Price is reasonable.

Met with two programmers that are good friends. They used to be my neighbors. One is backend and does dabble in a bit of android and the other is mobile iOS. They have good chemistry which is good but they are very laid back. They don't seem to be rockstars but the fact that they are manageable is good. They've agreed to meet up for a final interview where I will bring in other programmers to vet them.

Things are going well so far.

 

[backbreaker]

Once again, if only it were that easy. Most smart investors don't fund single founder startups. If the business was established and generating some revenue then that might be a different story. Here are the reasons below why VC's, Angles, and Incubators don't fund single founder startups.

1.) Too much work for a single person.
2.) If the founder dies, you lose your whole investment.
3.) If founder leaves, you cannot replace him.

Go take a look at the majority of the companies being funded now, and i guarantee you they will be teams of atleast two where the teams compliment each other. Most business's require many skill sets, upfront capital investment, and alot of work. For one individual to be able to do all that is extremely tough.

Met with the lawyers and the meeting went well. They are actually a sponsor to one of the local incubators that provide 20k in funding but will take a 10% stake non negotiable. I prefer the other top incubators in the country as they have better networks and mentors and can negotiate on stake. Their firm has represented 18 of the total 30 companies that they've funded. He thinks we'll get a bid at any incubator we apply for. Price is reasonable.

Met with two programmers that are good friends. They used to be my neighbors. One is backend and does dabble in a bit of android and the other is mobile iOS. They have good chemistry which is good but they are very laid back. They don't seem to be rockstars but the fact that they are manageable is good. They've agreed to meet up for a final interview where I will bring in other programmers to vet them.

Things are going well so far.

\

I got to side with warrior here. My first business would probably be public right now if not for my selfish, silly, egotistical business partner I had. I was at a point either quite or beat the living **** out of him. Dude called my GF a ***** and pushed her down for NOT PAYING HIS ENERGY BILL lol.

I will never have a business partner again. that's one of those things you just have to learn. There are times I wish I had someone to ease the load off me, but in the long run it's worth it.

 

[AAAgent]

\

I got to side with warrior here. My first business would probably be public right now if not for my selfish, silly, egotistical business partner I had. I was at a point either quite or beat the living **** out of him. Dude called my GF a ***** and pushed her down for NOT PAYING HIS ENERGY BILL lol.

I will never have a business partner again. that's one of those things you just have to learn. There are times I wish I had someone to ease the load off me, but in the long run it's worth it.

Sounds like some legal mistakes you made there. I've already protected myself as the original founder. Although my founders have equity stakes themselves and do technically have partial control in the company, i can at any time remove them. If i fire them for not performing what they were supposed to, i pay them for whatever it is they paid for their stake, which is pennies on the dollar (legally you can't give away ownership, it has to be bought even if it's just for pennies). If i fire them without cause, i pay them fair market value for ownership of the company.

 

[AAAgent]

Since i'm documenting this entire learning process i thought i'd get a bit more specific. I wanted to make this update on myself as an individual. Working a full time job that roughly accounts for about 45-50 hours a week and then working on my business after hours and also working out as much as i can in the gym and MMA (have not gone as much lately) I have noticed some changes. Some of which are obvious.

I'm feeling exhausted and sometimes go to sleep right when i get home. Gym time is getting less and less. It was recently end of Q3 so i have to crunch a little bit for better bonus numbers and Q4 is also going to be crunch time as i have my largest bonus coming. I try to be fair to everyone i come across in life and treat everyone with respect but i'm starting to learn that I need to change. Life is not fair and you can't always put everyone on equal footing.

As a business owner I need to take charge. I've realized this. Trying to be everyone's mom and make sure we're all happy doesn't work. It's not how leaders act and people also don't respond well if you act like this.....So, i've started to act more confident and demanding (i have done this but i don't like it) but people respect me more this way.

During the last 4 years i've made alot of development and progress as an individual and in regards to my career. It's been to the point where my friends and family are surprised. Nothing amazing but from where i started I came a long way and now make more money than most of my friends. At first my friends were proud and happy, then slowly jealousy and resentment started to show. They would ask me for advice and i would tell them to do this, that and that (a ton of hard work and proactiveness) and most of them did not do this and made no progress. One person did listen to me and i helped him get his job he has now when he wasn't able to get it before but he still resents the fact that he had to follow my advice. Now, instead of being happy for me, they think i'm a bit ****y/overconfident but i try to explain it's more from the experiences i've had to go through.

So there's a bit of jealousy. On top of that, this work is a bit stressful. Although everything seems to be going well nothing is guaranteed. I still need to be accepted into the incubator and actually receive the money and until that happens i won't feel re-assured. I had no programmer connections at the start of my business and now i'm about to sign two of them. sometimes the stress gets to me and i try to talk to my friends about it but they really don't care or they may even see it as bragging. I also realized i can't show any of this weakness to my current founders or prospects. It doesn't help for the morale or character. So sh1t is getting tough and nobody cares and i will need to smile and keep on a facade so that my team is motivated to continue working.

Also, i'm starting to also get a bit more confident/****y. Whatever you want to call it. Chances of getting funded seem to be getting better and better by the day. By March 2014, my company could be valued at 200-300k and come October 2014 it could be potentially in the millions. This is assuming everything goes according to plan.

I try to stay level headed and i'm able to contain my excitement ATM, but one wrong thing could happen and i could be back at square 1 with nothing. Once funding happens i'll need to revisit and make sure i'm still level headed.

Things i've learned :

1.) Being the head of a business is exhausting and this is coming from a person that normally works 50 hour work weeks and works out 10-20 hours a week. The pressure of achieving results is what taxes my body the most. Managing people and expectations and the future of the company and knowing that 1 potential mistake is the end of my dream.

2.) People close to you will be jealous and it's best to keep your plans minimally to yourself for as long as possible. This way you can maintain your friendship.

3.) Most people including your friends don't want to hear about your problems. Whether their good or bad most people just would rather you kept them to yourself.

4.) If you want to be a leader, act like a leader. The leader shoulders all the responsibility and is supposed to ensure morale is as high as possible. There is no babying anyone as a leader as you will lose respect and make things harder going forward.

 

[Cieg]

How was it now? Have you got any profit now? Business is a no joke and is somewhat difficult I guess.

 

[AAAgent]

I feel overwhelmed today and was pondering giving up. Not realistically but i imagined how much free time i would have which would also be relatively stress free. But obviously no one can know this except me and this journal.

48 laws of power

Rule 30

Make all your accomplishments seem effortless.

 

[The_flying_dutchman]

My man, I've been following this thread for a long time. From what I've read so far, it leads me to believe that putting this project on hold(for now) might be the best option.

1) The sales dude hasn't invested his heart into the operation the way you have. Basically, he's along for the ride if things work out, if it doesn't, he doesn't look like he'd give a d@mn. This guy is piggybacking on you. The only problem is that he ranks higher than you in your day job so if you damage that relationship you'll put yourself in a tough spot at work.

2) You're too overly reliant on other peoples' participation. You need programmers because you lack programming experience, and you also need programmers on board for investors. And you're also reliant on investors, whom eventually will start meddling in the day to day affairs if things take off. The more people involved, the more drama they'll cause. This is the nature of people - they will bicker and argue just for the sake of bickering and arguing.

3) The technology arena is constantly evolving and changing. And though your idea might be a great idea now, it may or may not be relevant 1 or 2 years down the road-- it would probably take that long just to get the business up and running anyways.

My man, I hate to be a downer, but in this case, and out of concern for an SS brother, I think the best option would be to put the project on hold for now.

 

[synergy1]

I am going to have to agree with the poster above - you have a quandery since you bring no technical acumen or money to the table. Sure you mention all the intangible stuff like delegating, 48 laws of power, calling for money but the reality is you have no tangible progress or ability to move past where you are. In my opinion here are the options on the table:

1- Get a technical guy. Odds are anyone worth their salt will be working. Convincing them to leave their job would be a difficult one.

2- Get the money. Earn enough to pay for a programmer to get an alpha build so you can actually present something to investors.

3- Learn to code for yourself. This might or might not be difficult depending on your own intelligence and persistence ( believe me coding is more about the later)

Ask yourself honestly what you have right now. Just the idea? How can you move past that? Really think about the answer to that. An investor doesn't want you to tell them - they want you to show them. What do YOU have to show right now?

I'll tell you that if you want to get a technical guy on board, you WILL need to offer something more than the preliminary idea because they WILL leave as soon as things get difficult.. This I can tell you from experience when a friend started the idea of the last business I was in but needed my technical expertise to do the benchtop engineering/ academic interface. I left based on a number of factors, but the primary owner being nothing but dead weight ( not saying you are) was one of the chief reasons. I wasn't going to pour my heart and soul into something for someone else who did nothing and was freeloading.

You are still young. Make it happen. If its a solid idea, do it at all costs. Can't make the money, or get a guy? Wouldn't you still learn to code if it ment a 1 million dollar payout someday? I know I would start learning programming tonight if this was the case!

Good luck.

 

[backbreaker]

I am going to have to agree with the poster above - you have a quandery since you bring no technical acumen or money to the table. Sure you mention all the intangible stuff like delegating, 48 laws of power, calling for money but the reality is you have no tangible progress or ability to move past where you are. In my opinion here are the options on the table:

1- Get a technical guy. Odds are anyone worth their salt will be working. Convincing them to leave their job would be a difficult one.

2- Get the money. Earn enough to pay for a programmer to get an alpha build so you can actually present something to investors.

3- Learn to code for yourself. This might or might not be difficult depending on your own intelligence and persistence ( believe me coding is more about the later)

Ask yourself honestly what you have right now. Just the idea? How can you move past that? Really think about the answer to that. An investor doesn't want you to tell them - they want you to show them. What do YOU have to show right now?

I'll tell you that if you want to get a technical guy on board, you WILL need to offer something more than the preliminary idea because they WILL leave as soon as things get difficult.. This I can tell you from experience when a friend started the idea of the last business I was in but needed my technical expertise to do the benchtop engineering/ academic interface. I left based on a number of factors, but the primary owner being nothing but dead weight ( not saying you are) was one of the chief reasons. I wasn't going to pour my heart and soul into something for someone else who did nothing and was freeloading.

You are still young. Make it happen. If its a solid idea, do it at all costs. Can't make the money, or get a guy? Wouldn't you still learn to code if it ment a 1 million dollar payout someday? I know I would start learning programming tonight if this was the case!

Good luck.

If I didn't have the technical know how to actually put together a computer from the ground up my first company would have never taken off.

you are correct. you have to bring something to the table. money or the skill to do something.

You are still young. Make it happen. If its a solid idea, do it at all costs. Can't make the money, or get a guy? Wouldn't you still learn to code if it ment a 1 million dollar payout someday? I know I would start learning programming tonight if this was the case!

my first company's idea was unique enough that we had TWO different venture capital firms willing to give us up to about 200k but they wanted half the company. it was a brilliant idea that hadn't been done. But we thought enough about the idea that we were like dammit, I'm not giving you half my company. I don't care if it takes us 5 years to come up with the money, 50% is too much. we were willing to give up a percentage at the time, but not half. Even while we were broke, we weren't' willing to do that.

I see this a lot in my field as I own a web development company, I see these all the time these guys come up with ideas and they want you to work for free. They are willing to give you a percentage of sales / the company and my first thought is always, well ****, if it's that good of an idea, why don't you A. save up the money and pay for it so you don't have to give anyone ANY percentage of the sales (that's what we did with our company) or B. just learn how to program yourself? I'm a self taught PHP, Flash, Flex programmer. It's hard but not impossible. I still to this day handle any flex or flash based work that comes across our table which isn't a lot but it's enough.


If learning a programming language was the difference between me launching my million dollar idea and failing, that language wouldn't have a chance.

In short, you haven't invested enough. You want to do this with other people's time and other people's money, but not yours. You don't' want to waste YOUR time learning a language or waste your time saving money. That's not going to work. it just doesn't work like that. You have no skin in the game.

 

[The_flying_dutchman]

If I didn't have the technical know how to actually put together a computer from the ground up my first company would have never taken off.

you are correct. you have to bring something to the table. money or the skill to do something.

EXACTLY. Simply being the captain, the innovator, the guy with ideas, the business leader, or any other esoteric moniker simply won't cut it. If you can't bring technical skill, then you'd better bring money. If can't bring the money and you have to rely on outside funding, then you don't even own your idea anymore, the investors own it now. AAAgent is trying to set up an army of soldiers fighting for a common goal, the truth is he's surrounded by mercenaries whom will abandon the campaign as soon as difficulty sets in, or the difficulty outweighs the money.

This is why at first I recommended outsourcing the programming to either India or China and own the program. Then sell it off to whomever would buy it. Rinse and repeat.

Not everyone can be Steve Jobs and be an "innovator" or "creator" or "mogul" or whatever moniker we keep hearing on the news. Sometimes the best way to get rich is to be clever, not smart.

 

[backbreaker]

EXACTLY. Simply being the captain, the innovator, the guy with ideas, the business leader, or any other esoteric moniker simply won't cut it. If you can't bring technical skill, then better bring money. If can't bring the money and you have to rely on outside funding, then you don't even own your idea anymore, the investors own it now. AAAgent is trying to set up an army of soldiers fighting for a common goal, the truth is he's surrounded by mercenaries whom will abandon the campaign as soon as difficulty sets in, or the difficulty outweighs the money.

to take it a step further, my first company's niche was selling microATX form factor customized pc's that allow you to customize them without knowing anything about them from any point in the computer. I got the idea (the company was originally my idea, my brianstorm) working at best buy as a tech and seeing all these people over paying for **** they didn't need to gte **** they did need. paying 1500 for a pc just because you wanted the good sound card and memory in it, paying 2000 dollars for a ga ing pc when you don't need a true gaming pc you just need a bad ass graphics card for photoshop work, etc. But they build their own because they don't know how.

that's a true need. so we built a platform that allowed for users to build a pc build a computer from any part of the computer, and it was 100% guranteed to work. For instance, say you knew you needed a really good grahpics card but didn't' know anything else. You could start with the graphics card. From there the platform would chose which motherboards worked with that and you can pick one, then the platform would chose which memory worked with that, then the platform would chose which processors worked with the mainboard, etc.

keep in mind, this was 11 years ago this was bad ass **** back then. PHP was in it's infancy at the time.

i say that to say, not only did we build these custom computers, I learned how to program because the guy who was going to build this platform wanted 15 grand. i said fvck that, went to Barnes and noble and learned ASP.NET to the point where we could get SOMETHING up. it took 4 months to learn that much code. 4 months, staying up all night, and the finished product sucked ass lol, but it was workable enough to where i could pay a professional 1000 to finish it off instead of building the entire thing. in retrospect it wasn't even all that bad just was kinda buggy. for my first time, it was bad ass.

my point being, delegation is good when you have resources. when you d on't have resources, you have to roll up your sleeves and get **** done. OR figure out how to do ****.

 

[AAAgent]

@ dutchman, synergy, and bb.

You are all correct in what you said.

I think some of you did miss that I have vested money in the company and the company currently has about 10k in the bank not including the money i used to incorporate and get all the contracts set in place so that we are a legit business and are serious to our investors. Assuming that I can get the team together and keep it together for the application process for the incubators, we'll get an additional 25k and i have requested that the other founders put in atleast 5-10k by June 2014 otherwise their stakes are automatically cut in half. They understand that. So ideally, by june 2014 we'll have 50k+ to work with and the network/mentoring to make sure we spend it wisely and are on the right track.

As for the sales guy, he still isn't doing much but we are meeting every week. If there's a fall out between us, it doesn't affect my work much. I can also do the sales job myself but as you can see.....I can't clone myself and am lacking the time/energy. I have a few other sales guys in mind before i have to resort to going insane and taking on this role myself. Creativity is definitely being killed by this work overload.

I'm a hustler. I get sh1t done when it needs to be done. Drop me off in any country and i'll find a way to not only survive but get/develop the means to get home. I know what i have to do to get this business to succeed. I'm networking, going to events and speaking with VC's, getting introduced to people, calling/emailing/meetings with anyone and everyone in my network, i'm putting a team together that has skills in certain fields, and ultimately still learning to lead this team into the cycle of the business.

I am also learning programming and have started a few weeks ago. I've done a little bit back in highschool but my skills are more set for hustling. I'm will not in the near future be able to code for a company but atleast i am learning.

The team is going to be complete in a few weeks as 3 programmers have said yes. I just need to setup a day and time to interview them and test their technical knowledge and then decide on the ones to join the team.

So before you say, i have invested enough... I put all my savings into this business (10K+ and I have another 10k coming at year end once i get my bonus). I have over 100 emails relating to networking, recruiting, and sales. I've setup many in person meetings (coffee, drinks & dinners), phone calls, etc. I've written the business outline. I've researched the incubators for years, i've been in business competitions and have managed/started my own business in the past. I've spoken with my mentors who work with tech startsups for a living and I've prepared myself and the company to succeed barring market conditions and my mentors agree. They have afterall guaranteed that we will get a bid and are the founding sponsors of one of the incubators.

The sales guy is meant to get sales and if he can't then he's out.
The tech guys are meant to build a product/manage the tech team and if they can't, they're out.
I'm meant to build this team, and if i can't get technical guys on board to build a marketable prototype and a sales guy to show we have a market, than I as the CEO am out. I'm building the foundation so that the business can be successful. So far, i've done my job.

I appreciate all the advice and concern. And although there is some negativity as to whether i'll succeed or not, i'm confident i'm on the right track and i welcome the criticism. I am a bit overconfident but I have worked hard in the past and seen the fruits of my labor.

1.) I've held many local swimming records and a few are still standing today.
2.) i've been nationally ranked swimmer.
3.) Won global sales competitions, and many other work competitions (won an ipad & a trip to london).
4.) finaled in business competitions.

Hopefully these past experiences and my skills and experience will help me reach my goals and in a few months i can tell you all i told you so, like i've done many times in the past. Or i'll come back here acknowledging you guys were right.

On a positive note, there has yet to be an issue that has been brought up that I didn't have an answer to.

 

[AAAgent]

EXACTLY. Simply being the captain, the innovator, the guy with ideas, the business leader, or any other esoteric moniker simply won't cut it. If you can't bring technical skill, then you'd better bring money. If can't bring the money and you have to rely on outside funding, then you don't even own your idea anymore, the investors own it now. AAAgent is trying to set up an army of soldiers fighting for a common goal, the truth is he's surrounded by mercenaries whom will abandon the campaign as soon as difficulty sets in, or the difficulty outweighs the money.

This is why at first I recommended outsourcing the programming to either India or China and own the program. Then sell it off to whomever would buy it. Rinse and repeat.

Not everyone can be Steve Jobs and be an "innovator" or "creator" or "mogul" or whatever moniker we keep hearing on the news. Sometimes the best way to get rich is to be clever, not smart.

Outsourcing is highly frowned upon for a tech startup.

 

[The_flying_dutchman]

Outsourcing is highly frowned upon for a tech startup.

Yeah, I know. The dude on the previous page that was spewing all that racist nonsense was obviously a tech guy that has some kind of beef with Indian folks.

Let's ask ourselves why it's frowned upon: could it be because someone overseas can produce the same result at only a fraction of the cost? And now all the hipster, starbucks-drinking, tech f@gs have to justify their paychecks? I'm pretty sure that's the reason. It goes back to what backbreaker was saying in his other thread about VALUE, either you bring VALUE or you're weeded out in the game of life.

Anyways, from a business perspective, if you pitch your tech idea to programmers, what's to stop them from stealing your idea?

If I was a savvy programmer, and you pitched a million dollar idea at me, I'd feign disinterest. Then I'll steal your idea, program it myself, get it copyrighted, and get rich off it.

I don't consider myself a business leader or any kind of leader, I'm a mercenary. I'm interested only in my personal profit. If anyone wants my services, they're going to pay cash upfront. I don't want equity, I don't want to join your team, I don't care for innovation or revolutions, and I sure as hell don't want to "join you on this awesome ride", I want the muthafvckin money.

You see where I'm going with this? This is the mentality that these sales guys and programmers have. They're not interested in this business. They're out to profit from it and from you.

Which is why I put out the idea of just simply contracting someone to do the coding for you. And hey, why not consider a foreign company? They're smart enough to do the programming, but not clever enough (or have the economic means) to steal the idea from you.

My friend, I would encourage you to verse yourself in how/when to recruit soldiers and how/when to contract mercenaries to your advantage.

 

[backbreaker]

Yeah, I know. The dude on the previous page that was spewing all that racist nonsense was obviously a tech guy that has some kind of beef with Indian folks.

Let's ask ourselves why it's frowned upon: could it be because someone overseas can produce the same result at only a fraction of the cost? And now all the hipster, starbucks-drinking, tech f@gs have to justify their paychecks? I'm pretty sure that's the reason. It goes back to what backbreaker was saying in his other thread about VALUE, either you bring VALUE or you're weeded out in the game of life.

Anyways, from a business perspective, if you pitch your tech idea to programmers, what's to stop them from stealing your idea?

If I was a savvy programmer, and you pitched a million dollar idea at me, I'd feign disinterest. Then I'll steal your idea, program it myself, get it copyrighted, and get rich off it.

I don't consider myself a business leader or any kind of leader, I'm a mercenary. I'm interested only in my personal profit. If anyone wants my services, they're going to pay cash upfront. I don't want equity, I don't want to join your team, I don't care for innovation or revolutions, and I sure as hell don't want to "join you on this awesome ride", I want the muthafvckin money.

You see where I'm going with this? This is the mentality that these sales guys and programmers have. They're not interested in this business. They're out to profit from it and from you.

Which is why I put out the idea of just simply contracting someone to do the coding for you. And hey, why not consider a foreign company? They're smart enough to do the programming, but not clever enough (or have the economic means) to steal the idea from you.

My friend, I would encourage you to verse yourself in how/when to recruit soldiers and how/when to contract mercenaries to your advantage.

good lord this is one of the best posts I've read in quite a while on this forum.

AAAgent I'm telling you, this is spot on.

I see this everyday. and i mean EVERYDAY. There are some things that we have to outsource ourselves becuase we don't have the people in house to do it, mainly anything requiring Ruby on Rails programming. So I go to elance.com and i look for a ruby programmer to do such and such.

Half the responses are going to be from California/new york based programmers charging you 35-40 dollars an hour for pretty generic ass work.
the other half are going to be from Indian firms charing you 8 dollars an hour for pretty ****ty work.

the truth lies somewhere in the middle. I don't mind paying 35 dollars and hour if that is how much something costs. But most US based programmers aren't worth what they want to be paid and frown upon outsourcing for no other reason than it's taking money out of their own pockets

****, int he olds days, you at least paid 35 dollars an hour for the guy and while it was overpriced, it was going ot get done. You an't even say that sometimes now. The quality of work has drastically been diminished. The boom of open source programming has turned the programming word into feast or famine. you have a few guys who actually know how to program and you have a lot of guys who know how to install modules and want to be paid 35 dollars an hour becuase they live in LA and have to pay bills.


I can tell you all this because i will hire a 15 year old from thailand to build my websites for me if he's the best person for the project i don't' give a **** about outsourcing, MY skillset can't be replaced, and that's the ability to sale projects. Regardless of WHO is programming the work, they both need me to get them the jobs.

 

[AAAgent]

Yeah, I know. The dude on the previous page that was spewing all that racist nonsense was obviously a tech guy that has some kind of beef with Indian folks.

Let's ask ourselves why it's frowned upon: could it be because someone overseas can produce the same result at only a fraction of the cost? And now all the hipster, starbucks-drinking, tech f@gs have to justify their paychecks? I'm pretty sure that's the reason. It goes back to what backbreaker was saying in his other thread about VALUE, either you bring VALUE or you're weeded out in the game of life.

Anyways, from a business perspective, if you pitch your tech idea to programmers, what's to stop them from stealing your idea?

If I was a savvy programmer, and you pitched a million dollar idea at me, I'd feign disinterest. Then I'll steal your idea, program it myself, get it copyrighted, and get rich off it.

I don't consider myself a business leader or any kind of leader, I'm a mercenary. I'm interested only in my personal profit. If anyone wants my services, they're going to pay cash upfront. I don't want equity, I don't want to join your team, I don't care for innovation or revolutions, and I sure as hell don't want to "join you on this awesome ride", I want the muthafvckin money.

You see where I'm going with this? This is the mentality that these sales guys and programmers have. They're not interested in this business. They're out to profit from it and from you.

Which is why I put out the idea of just simply contracting someone to do the coding for you. And hey, why not consider a foreign company? They're smart enough to do the programming, but not clever enough (or have the economic means) to steal the idea from you.

My friend, I would encourage you to verse yourself in how/when to recruit soldiers and how/when to contract mercenaries to your advantage.

Dutchman, you do make some valid points and it's not anything that has slipped by me. I work for a company and our software is all outsourced. Our frontend, backend, and mobile app have all been outsourced overseas.

Here are my horrible experiences and why VC's and anyone that is intelligent will not fund a tech startup that relies on outsourcing their core product.

The company i work for is able to sell because of our content. Simple as that. Our site is old and we get complaints all the time. We are asked to add these features and do this and that everyday. In the end, our site is ****. Sales and research hate our PD team because they make us look like idiots. Our website was built on **** code on top of sh1t code. It's so bad that our website redesign has come to the point where we have to create a whole new site because they can't redsign the crap we have. I have no issues with cheap labor, it's the smart thing to do but when cheap labor comes at the cost of sub par work that is a major issue. I've already touched on this in the past since you have been following you can read back on why. I'll also re highlight this here for those that aren't in the field.

Here's why outsourcing PD is horrible without the right network/people to verify skills.

1.) Work is often subpar. Very similar to products that were/are manufactured in China when labor was cheap. If you wanted great work, you stayed out of china. Cheap subpar work, go to china.
2.) Communication issues. It's very hard to get stuff done on time just the way you envision it when your team is a 14 hour plane ride away and you need to communicate the majority of things through email or if you're lucky through video chatting.
3.) language issues. If you don't speak the same language as your native tongue, there will be alot of confusion.
4.) Investors and even myself want the team within reach and being in India isn't possible.

I have nothing against Indian people but they're known for subpar work because they are underpaid, understaffed, and extremely over worked. This is why Silicon Valley is in california and not India. They produce quality work and therefore are valued highly because they work under great working conditions. That's not to say there isn't talent in India, but when my network is all over North America and my team is better situated being local, it doesn't make sense for me to risk paying for ****ty work and having to repay someone on shore to redo it.


BB, no offense to you and your firm but I've done research on your company many years ago. The first year i joined ss, i researched Black17media and your company had horrible reviews. The customer service which was supposedly coming directly from you was noted to be horrendous and the websites were subpar quality that were rarely delivered on time. This was back in 2009 so i'm sure things have gotten better but still this is why i would prefer to stay onshore (seems like you outsource everything offshore). I'd rather pay a premium to get work i know is quality than pay for cheap labor than have to worry about having to have it redone. I've spoken to top development companies such as Sourcebits & Fueled. Those are the type of companies i'd go to. They have great reviews, on shore developers who you can actually meet in person if you choose to, etc.

Contracting someone to do the coding for me would definitely be an option if i didn't want to join an incubator but ideally, mercenary type of people like you (dutchman) only think about themselves. Majority of startups fail, and shouldering the entire burden on yourself and contracting someone to do all your work isn't ideal (it's more of a dream or perhaps if you were rich it'd be possible). I'm entering into a incubator that funded/helped launch Reddit, DropBox, and AirBnB.

Here are just a few questions on the applications:

Was any of your code written by someone who is not one of your founders? If so, how can you safely use it? (Open source is ok of course.)

Are any of the following true? (a) You are the only founder. (b) You are a student who may return to school when the next term starts. (c) Half or more of your group can’t move to the Bay Area. (d) One or more founders will keep their current jobs. (e) None of the founders are programmers. (Answering yes doesn’t disqualify you. It’s just to remind us to check.)

I may sound defensive and i probably am and it's because i believe everything i have stated here and I also have backing from industry executives supporting me.

@dutchman, when you look short term, mercenaries are great but long term they are a headache. You want soldiers who believe in you and your cause willing to fight to defend that cause on your side, not the guy that's looking for a buck and will peace out at any sign of major turmoil. Investors will see that as well and that's why they look at how the team is comprised. It's a major reason why companies are overlooked because companies are ultimately comprised of the people that represent that company. Sure i don't know how to code, but I will get this product launched on way or another and if a company really believes i have the capability to execute on that promise, they'll take a risk and invest. There are companies do make it by outsourcing but those are few and far between and they generally have the capital and experience and the security to make those types of risks.

As to stealing the idea. There is nothing stopping anyone from stealing the idea. I tell programmers straight up what the idea is. I do leave out a few key points here and there but they could start the company if they wanted to. They'd have to hire a sales guy and work out how the sales process is structured and make sure the sales guy performs. THey'd have to also hire a marketing guy and a guy to get funding for the project. It's not impossible, but for someone who didn't originate the idea, it'll take them time to work out all the kinks and develop the processes and have the balls/persistence to put everything into effect. Essentially they'd still have to do everything i'm doing and have a similar vision. If there is such a person, than great. He's more suited to do this than i am as he can code and has a better grasp on things. But those people are few and far between. That's why there's people like me called hustlers that have the vision, have the work ethic, and have the ability to put teams together and get funding and then there's technical people who have the skills it takes to bring that vision into reality. Each side is looking for the other side.

I could theoretically tell SS the idea (i won't just to be safe). The reason why i don't feel as threatened as most people normally would is because of the amount of work it takes to bring this product to fruition. Not only does everything i stated above need to be true, but to have the passion of getting this type of company/product launched is also another. This has been my life goal. I'm not out to just make a buck, i'm out to make a difference.

But i'm rambling a bit. I just got back from a good date that i really don't have the time to continue on pursuing. Hope you all have better luck than i do.

 

[The_flying_dutchman]

EDIT: nevermind, no need for me to go into rambling mode.

anyways, I'll continue to follow this thread and offer insight whereever I can, although mine is the perspective of a merc and not a guy with the passion for a long term commitment. But please don't take offense, my critiques are constructive and not meant to derail you. If anything, I'm a cheerleader on your side.