Single again! Read my break-up email.

[Demon]

Re: Devils advocate

Originally posted by Oscar Wilde
So your attitude is to disrespect everybody until they prove that they've earned your respect? Interesting. How does that work for you?

I suspect that that is not the way you operate.

Oscar.

No. Respect is never freely given. Respect is earned. However, being considerate is freely given until disrespect is earned. Things like respect are not one-way operations as your post seems to dictate. If you freely give respect to anyone and everyone, you're a fool.

 

[thissucks003]

This thread is somewhat amusing. I wonder how many guys who have posted on this actually have had the experience of dating a single mom? I am not talking about one or two dates. I am talking at least a month or more. I have dated three.


TS

 

[Dark Nimbus]

Originally posted by Oscar Wilde
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Starman

But as far as the idea that Parents should love each other more than their children is poppycock and idealistic.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Absolutely, 100% agreement.

I don't agree with you guys on this point. Why is it idealistic to love your wife more then your children? You're the one that chooses your wife based on your list of wants and needs, and if you don't fully love her you shouldn't be getting married to begin with. If you're poor at choosing the right partner in the first place, that's your problem, and if you can't make a LTR work, that's your problem too. Just don't have kids if you can't get a single relationship to work or you can't hold it together like a real man should. Yeah people drift apart and change as they get older, but there has to be something solid that you both see in one another that will never change regardless of what the future brings. If it means constantly communicating with your partner and reminding yourselves about what positive qualities you see in one another, so be it. I think you guys think it's idealistic because you see the tremendous amount of divorces out there and the general public acceptance of it, and use that as a cop-out in case your own relationships are a failure. It's a way to avoid taking any blame for your decisions, or more directly one of the biggest decisions you could ever make (to have kids).

You don't get to choose your kids, so yes you love them and protect them at all costs, but it's your wife that was 50% of the reason you have those kids, and could have more if you wish, so isn't it reasonable to assume you should show her the most love of all? You shouldn't be having kids with someone you don't love in the first place, and when you both do decide to raise some kids, I think it's vital that the kids see mom and dad as the head of the household in every single way, except when it comes to protecting them.

Again, in the original post it's different since she was already a single mother, but if you're the biological father it's your job to run the show with your wife being second in command. It's like being a captain of a ship. If you spend your time comforting and focusing most of your attention on the passengers instead of running the ship with your officers, the ship won't be sailing to it's full potential.

 

[Demon]

Let's look at the love-priority issue from another angle:

A married couple have two kids. They're having problems and they think divorce is the best option. Should they divorce because they know it's the only way out and they want out? Or should they stay together for the kids? My opinion alongside that of many others is the former. Never stay together for the kids. If you do stay together for the kids and both of you remain unhappy, the kids will eventually see this and become psychologically affected (e.g. depression from growing up in an unhappy family).

My parents were talking about divorce and I've always told them that if they feel it's the right decision to make they should do it, but they haven't done it so it seems to me they feel they can make it work.

The idea is to love your children 100% until they're well-off enough to be out on their own. When they reach that point, they become individuals and then you're given the choice to let those emotions go. It depends on who you are. If you're like Rev, you would have beat up your kids and your wife "out of love." At least, that's what you'd say in court. Anyway, when children are added to the equation, the quality of love between two partners can depreciate or appreciate. It depends on the quality of the individuals.

 

[Starman]

Its Idealistic..because of TWO thing

#1 BIOLOGY -
The basis for FAMILY. Why do you think the family bond between humans is so strong? and the relationship between mates so shakey?

Do you really honestly think humans can love someone else not biologically linked to them ..Over their own child?

#2 Conditional/Unconditional love..Your mate becomes your partner..on a value-for-value basis. he/she gives you love..and you return it..but if one gives less than he takes..he/she is out the door..its kind of a "love" contract..you give me love and I will return it to you

Now on the flipside..child/parent relationship is based on Unconditional love..while the child or parent may not be perfect..the blood ties still remain..your child in essence is yourself..and how can you not love yourself?

SO why is it idealistic to love your wife more than your kids? I dont think you will really ever know until you have your own or you are as smart as me.

 

[Giovanni Casanova]

Originally posted by Dark Nimbus
I think you guys think it's idealistic because you see the tremendous amount of divorces out there and the general public acceptance of it, and use that as a cop-out in case your own relationships are a failure. It's a way to avoid taking any blame for your decisions, or more directly one of the biggest decisions you could ever make (to have kids).

No, it's got nothing to do with the divorce rate nor does it have anything to do with "copping out". It has to do with this: Quite simply, if you're a good parent, you love your kids more than you love anything. More than you love a woman, more than you love sex, more than you love yourself. Now, if it bothers you that if you ever have kids your wife will love them more than you, I'd suggest you either get over it or never have kids. If you find a woman who will love you more than her kids, she would fall into the category of Women to Steer Clear From.

Originally posted by thissucks003
This thread is somewhat amusing. I wonder how many guys who have posted on this actually have had the experience of dating a single mom? I am not talking about one or two dates. I am talking at least a month or more. I have dated three.

I've dated a couple, and am with one now... have been since last July.

 

[Dark Nimbus]

Originally posted by Starman
Its Idealistic..because of TWO thing

#1 BIOLOGY -
The basis for FAMILY. Why do you think the family bond between humans is so strong? and the relationship between mates so shakey?

The family bond is only strong when the parents have a good strong relationship. If you think all relationships between mates are shaky, you've got issues to work on, and you've obviously not picking the right girls to spend your time with.

Do you really honestly think humans can love someone else not biologically linked to them ..Over their own child?

Yes I do honestly think that, because it's not ONLY your child, your wife makes 50% of it's genetics so it's as much hers as yours.

#2 Conditional/Unconditional love..Your mate becomes your partner..on a value-for-value basis. he/she gives you love..and you return it..but if one gives less than he takes..he/she is out the door..its kind of a "love" contract..you give me love and I will return it to you

It depends on the relationship. There are times I might want to be left alone and my feelings aren't as strong for my girl, but it's normal and a rational person knows this and won't be looking for the exit sign the moment it happens. Every relationship has its hurdles, but don't get into one if you're not ready for the long haul. I suppose some guys are just better off in STR's and not having kids where they can avoid the responsibility of fatherhood, because thinking of a relationship as a "contract" (thanks organized religion) instead of a selfless unity with another person you've learned to trust over time is just wrong.

Now on the flipside..child/parent relationship is based on Unconditional love..while the child or parent may not be perfect..the blood ties still remain..your child in essence is yourself..and how can you not love yourself?

Unconditional love yes, but you should have that for the mother of your kids too because those kids didn't magically appear there at your command. I don't know about you, but I don't sign contracts when I get into relationships, I learn over time if I want to be around a girl and if they have the qualities I'm looking for in a partner and mother then I'll open up to her and start building what's called a "relationship".

SO why is it idealistic to love your wife more than your kids? I dont think you will really ever know until you have your own or you are as smart as me.

You're right, I won't fully know if my thinking is sound until I have kids, but I'm smart enough to think things through and comprehend the basic principals that are required. Btw, am I to assume you have kids and speak from experience oh wise one?

 

[Giovanni Casanova]

Originally posted by Dark Nimbus
Yes I do honestly think that, because it's not ONLY your child, your wife makes 50% of it's genetics so it's as much hers as yours.

Right. You'll love your kids more than your wife, and she'll love the kids more than you. And that's how it should be. Why is that so difficult to understand?

 

[Demon]

You f*ckers are straying off-topic. Remember? This thread is about this prick Rev who trashtalks two children ages 4 and 6. Then smiles when the single mother basically tells him he's immature.

 

[Giovanni Casanova]

Originally posted by Demon
You f*ckers are straying off-topic. Remember? This thread is about this prick Rev who trashtalks two children ages 4 and 6. Then smiles when the single mother basically tells him he's immature.

I think we've covered the part about Rev being an idiot. But part of the email that Rev received said that her kids came first, which has apparently alarmed some guys who apparently think that's an outrage and a sign of a highly dysfunctional mother -- I mean, gads... a mother who puts her children above a guy that she's dating... or even one she's married to? It's particularly ironic in the context of this thread, where RKTek seems to be advising Rev not to go for any woman who would love her kids more than him, when in fact Rev is a poster child for why a woman SHOULDN'T love any date/boyfriend/fiance/husband more than her children.

How's that for on-topic, "f*cker"?

 

[Dark Nimbus]

Originally posted by Giovanni Casanova


No, it's got nothing to do with the divorce rate nor does it have anything to do with "copping out". It has to do with this: Quite simply, if you're a good parent, you love your kids more than you love anything. More than you love a woman, more than you love sex, more than you love yourself. Now, if it bothers you that if you ever have kids your wife will love them more than you, I'd suggest you either get over it or never have kids. If you find a woman who will love you more than her kids, she would fall into the category of Women to Steer Clear From.


I've dated a couple, and am with one now... have been since last July. [/B]

See, I just don't agree with that, because I think you should love your kids more then anything/anyone EXCEPT your wife. I know you're dating a single mother but as I said that's a different situation in that they are her kids and she SHOULD love them more then she does you the outsider. If they're biologically your kids however, they'll be better off seeing your desire to dedicate more attention towards their mother then them. Now if that bothers YOU, feel free to do it your way, because I'm sure it won't ruin the kids either way since in both situations they're not being neglected or shown a lack of love. The difference is they can go out and explore the world and in the back of their minds always know there is a strong foundation at home they can fall back on if life kicks them in the a$$. It also shows that relationships can and should be strong, and that they as the kids have a place in the family unit but aren’t not the main focus.

 

[Dark Nimbus]

Originally posted by Giovanni Casanova
Right. You'll love your kids more than your wife, and she'll love the kids more than you. And that's how it should be. Why is that so difficult to understand?

What makes you think she'll love the kids more then me? It will be our decision to have kids in the first place, and to raise and love them, but that wouldn't be possible if we didn't agree to it and if we didn't love each other first and foremost. Why is it so difficult for you to see it from my perspective?

 

[Giovanni Casanova]

Originally posted by Dark Nimbus
See, I just don't agree with that, because I think you should love your kids more then anything/anyone EXCEPT your wife. I know you're dating a single mother but as I said that's a different situation in that they are her kids and she SHOULD love them more then she does you the outsider. If they're biologically your kids however, they'll be better off seeing your desire to dedicate more attention towards their mother then them. Now if that bothers YOU, feel free to do it your way, because I'm sure it won't ruin the kids either way since in both situations they're not being neglected or shown a lack of love. The difference is they can go out and explore the world and in the back of their minds always know there is a strong foundation at home they can fall back on if life kicks them in the a$$. It also shows that relationships can and should be strong, and that they as the kids have a place in the family unit but aren’t not the main focus.

As I said earlier in this thread, it was clear as I was growing up that while my parents loved each other very much, they loved their children first and foremost. This did not f*ck us up in any way, and now that we're out of the home, I'm not worried that my parents are going to fall apart. There is a strong foundation there. But, to use an extreme example, if both my father and I were tied to a train track, and a train was coming, and there was only time to save one person, my mom would have chosen to save me. The same is true of my father.

The girl I'm with currently has a daughter, who is now 16 months old. When I first started dating her mother, she was 4 months old. While the biological father is around, he isn't really "around", if you know what I mean, so therefore I've been the main father figure in her life. That's a responsibility that I reluctantly accepted because I wasn't so sure I'd be the best choice for a father figure, but it's a responsibility that I now embrace. Not only do I now love that girl as if she was biologically mine, but I put her needs first above those of mine or of her mother's. Not only does Jen understand this and accept it, she wouldn't want it any other way. Same for me.

 

[Giovanni Casanova]

Originally posted by Dark Nimbus
What makes you think she'll love the kids more then me? It will be our decision to have kids in the first place, and to raise and love them, but that wouldn't be possible if we didn't agree to it and if we didn't love each other first and foremost. Why is it so difficult for you to see it from my perspective?

The short answer is because you're wrong. The longer answer is that while it's possible for your wife to love you more than the children, the simple fact is that if your wife truly loved you more than she loved her children, your wife wouldn't be a very good mother.

 

[Starman]

Dark Nimrod,

If you are going to refute my statements supported both by evolutionary theory/psychological journals, and divorce rate statistics..

at least be concrete with your answers, instead of giving "this is how life should be" answers to support your claims.

I have not read ANYWHERE that loving your spouse before your children produces healthier kids.

Lovers come and go. We fall in love one day..and with another person another day. But the love for your child remains constant.

I'd say anyone who loves their partner MORE than their own children, really has some insecurity, and self-absorption issues..after all..isnt being loved by your partner in effect making you feel good about yourself? vs. the type of love your child can provide for you?

 

[Demon]

hehe gio. you know i love you... plutonically of course.

 

[Dark Nimbus]

Originally posted by Giovanni Casanova
As I said earlier in this thread, it was clear as I was growing up that while my parents loved each other very much, they loved their children first and foremost. This did not f*ck us up in any way, and now that we're out of the home, I'm not worried that my parents are going to fall apart. There is a strong foundation there. But, to use an extreme example, if both my father and I were tied to a train track, and a train was coming, and there was only time to save one person, my mom would have chosen to save me. The same is true of my father.

I know what you’re saying because I used the “burning house” example earlier on in this thread, and I said I too would chose to save the kids before the mother, but that’s not what I’m debating here. It’s your responsibility to protect your kids even if it means losing your life, but it’s a responsibility you take when you decide to have kids in the first place. Yes they are the priority when life and death are at stake, but any other time your main focus should be on making your woman happy, not primarily your kids. We’re agreeing on more then you realize, except it seems about the topic of priorities, which shift depending on the situation so it’s hard to get a strong foothold in this discussion.

The girl I'm with currently has a daughter, who is now 16 months old. When I first started dating her mother, she was 4 months old. While the biological father is around, he isn't really "around", if you know what I mean, so therefore I've been the main father figure in her life. That's a responsibility that I reluctantly accepted because I wasn't so sure I'd be the best choice for a father figure, but it's a responsibility that I now embrace. Not only do I now love that girl as if she was biologically mine, but I put her needs first above those of mine or of her mother's. Not only does Jen understand this and accept it, she wouldn't want it any other way. Same for me.

Well it’s obviously a winning situation for Jen, because she’s found someone to look after her kid should anything happen to her, and if you don’t mind that it’s not really your offspring you’re taking responsibility for, then more power to you. Personally I wouldn’t even consider dating a girl with kids in tow, but that’s another topic. As nice as it will be for Jen’s daughter that you put her above her mother, do you think the kid would feel any different if you directed that attention to making her mother happy? which in turn would make the baby happy.

The short answer is because you're wrong. The longer answer is that while it's possible for your wife to love you more than the children, the simple fact is that if your wife truly loved you more than she loved her children, your wife wouldn't be a very good mother.

Yeah, and if she loves the kids more then you, she wouldn’t be a very good wife. I don’t think there’s a right or wrong here since either way nobody’s really getting hurt, it’s more of a lifestyle choice on where your priorities are.

 

[Dark Nimbus]

Originally posted by Starman
Dark Nimrod,

If you are going to refute my statements supported both by evolutionary theory/psychological journals, and divorce rate statistics..

at least be concrete with your answers, instead of giving "this is how life should be" answers to support your claims.

I have not read ANYWHERE that loving your spouse before your children produces healthier kids.

Lovers come and go. We fall in love one day..and with another person another day. But the love for your child remains constant.

I'd say anyone who loves their partner MORE than their own children, really has some insecurity, and self-absorption issues..after all..isnt being loved by your partner in effect making you feel good about yourself? vs. the type of love your child can provide for you?

You didn’t answer my question Starman, so I’ll assume you don’t have kids and you “don’t really know” either. I personally don’t care what you’ve read or haven’t read, I’m just arguing a point to hear some feedback, and I don’t need quotes from your evolutionary theory books to prove me wrong, but obviously you don’t have a mind of your own so go ahead and quote your books for me if it’ll make you feel better.

Trust me, it wouldn’t make me feel insecure if my wife loved the kids more then me, it’s just not how “I” think it should work. Too bad if it’s not the typical evolutionary method and it goes against your beliefs, but survival is largely based on adaptation and maybe my way of thinking will make my offspring more confident then yours and eventually become the norm.

To answer your question, OBVIOUSLY being loved by your partner makes you feel good, duh! But explain to me how that makes me self absorbed when I love my partner equally as much?

I won’t bother to comment on what type of love a child will provide me with because I don’t have kids.

 

[RKTek]

Originally posted by Quick
Mostly I disagree with your asessment of Rev's situation. I think you're superimposing your bad experiences onto all single moms.

Quick, your post makes sense and I agree. It is true I don't know Rev's situation and I wished he'd post again to further flesh out what really happened. I have had both good and bad experiences with single moms. The one good experience happened after the bad ones, which taught me what to look for.

I do not know Rev. Maybe what he did was out of line and the way he posted along with nuances of the email she sent him lead me to believe this scenario could have been a good Springer show episode. We will never really know.

You may all do what you want, but my personal experience shows me that should I ever be attracted to a single mom again, I'll want to find out as true as possible, the exact reasons she divorced the child(ren)s natural father. I'll pay particular attention to how classy she is and whether she is a more traditional woman regarding the role of men in society. I am a well-mannered, moral and decent gentleman, which it seems only well-mannered, moral and decent ladies recognize. Believe it or not, I've dated lower-class women who simply don't know how to handle a decent guy. In the past, to placate such women, especially if they're really attractive, I'll stop opening doors for them or begin cussing like a sailor to match their speech. No more. If my being a gentleman, a DJ, a MAN, makes them uncomfortable, then it's a red flag. It means she's not only used to being with rude JERKS, it also means that's what she wants. NEXT!

Single moms are more likely to have hooked up with a jerk who got them pregnant, then dumped them, which adds a whole trainload of baggage to their repertoire. Women also love to blame everyone else but themselves for their problems. If you ask them why they picked a jerk to date in the first place they probably won't be able to answer. When you as a gentleman, DJ, man come into her life and act like a real man who tries to EARN her respect, and she still doesn't get it, my brother DJ's, it's time to bail.

Whether Rev was trying to do that is hard to tell from his post. But you're right that's what I tried to do. If you hook up with a single mom and your intention is for an LTR/marriage, that's what you should try to do to. Be a gentleman, DJ and MAN to earn her respect. If she doesn't recognize it after awhile and give you clear co-equal dominion in the house, then you'll always be just a toy in her eyes.

 

[Giovanni Casanova]

Originally posted by Dark Nimbus
I know what you’re saying because I used the “burning house” example earlier on in this thread, and I said I too would chose to save the kids before the mother, but that’s not what I’m debating here. It’s your responsibility to protect your kids even if it means losing your life, but it’s a responsibility you take when you decide to have kids in the first place. Yes they are the priority when life and death are at stake, but any other time your main focus should be on making your woman happy, not primarily your kids. We’re agreeing on more then you realize, except it seems about the topic of priorities, which shift depending on the situation so it’s hard to get a strong foothold in this discussion.

I guess the problem is that I don't understand what the problem is. I say that a mom should love her kids more than anyone or anything, including the father -- and the father should love his kids more than anyone or anything, including the mother. You say, no, the mother and father should love each other more than they love their kids. But then we use examples where a parent is forced to choose between the kid and the spouse and we both agree the parent should chose the kid. Perhaps we disagree not on the concept but on the semantics of it... I don't really know. All I know is this: I love Jen as much as I love myself. But I love Hannah MORE than I love myself. Make sense?

As nice as it will be for Jen’s daughter that you put her above her mother, do you think the kid would feel any different if you directed that attention to making her mother happy? which in turn would make the baby happy.

I DO make Jen happy, and that DOES make Hannah happy, but that doesn't change the fact that Hannah is the number one priority for both of us. You act as though love is like money, and if I give all of it to Hannah, there will be none left for Jen. That's not the way it works. Hannah can be the most important thing to me, and I can love Jen very deeply, simultaneously. My love for Jen doesn't get reduced simply because Hannah is the first priority.

Yeah, and if she loves the kids more then you, she wouldn’t be a very good wife. I don’t think there’s a right or wrong here since either way nobody’s really getting hurt, it’s more of a lifestyle choice on where your priorities are.

I guess that depends on your definition of a "good wife", but to me, a good wife is first and foremost a good mother.