Setting Boundaries is an Agreement.

[stevo]

I am pro-boundary, but I am also one of the biggest proponents of always keeping in mind that your relationship can abruptly end. So boundaries or no boundaries, that has nothing to do with accepting that kind of mindset.

You are waiting to catch her cross a boundary for it to be over. I'm watching her prove herself.

Boundary: You end up liking the part of her that reflects the person your terms made her into.

No boundary: She acts like her default self while you determine if/when to move on.

Plus name calling someone else with a different opinion should not be the culture on here, we cant always agree on every detail but we agree on the main point, which is do what works for you!.

 

[Peña]

I am also one of the biggest proponents of always keeping in mind that your relationship can abruptly end.

Why make a boundary?

There is not a man on this planet that does not have an insecurity about something. Walk a tightrope over the grand canyon to prove me wrong. This doesn't mean that the man is his insecurity. It just means the man is subject to his insecurities until he learns how to overcome them.

This has been the subject of religious texts the world over.

True words.

 

[Peaks&Valleys]

No logical significance whatsoever. The implication I guess is that if I agree with one thing he said then I must accept all things, which is obviously fallacious.

You missed the point.

When referring to how to make a relationship work, why would you quote someone who doesn't get into relationships?

Mystery, though arguably the originator of speed seduction, said himself that he doesn't how to keep a quality woman around.

Understand? Didn't think so.

Well, if you all understand that, then maybe some of you anti-boundary folk should stop with the name calling, calling us insecure and controlling.

It's not meant to be name calling. Seriously, should we pu$$y foot around what we think, so no one gets offended? We're telling you straight up, what we think, intended as a means to help, not to put you down. There's crossing the line, but what we're saying is in the name of science, to help the human race! It's a study of the brain. Psychology, if you will.

There's another thread on here where the OP says that women don't like sex as well as men, and that no man has consistent access to pvssy. My reply was "I do, and I have never tried to hurt her or play mind games with her".

Where is this thread you speak of? In an Exclusive relationship, I have never not had consistent access to pvssy. What's the point of going into an exlusive relationship, so she can cut you off from having sex with other chicks and her? :crazy:

See, I despise game playing. I am very upfront and honest, that's the way I conduct my business. And that's why I make my expectations clear at the beginning of the relationship. You guys want to make it look like I am insecure and controlling, but I am actually just upfront and honest, and that works for me.

So be it, bro. I'm not neccessarily calling YOU that, you may be just that, up front and honest, okay. However, like I've said before, you've been with the same chick for 9 years, although, that's a good track record for not cheating, it's only one chick. Did she have any guy friends before she met you? Did she even want to hang out with any other guy friends before, during your exlusivity. With her, it may just have been a passing thought to her, when you said it, it was something she had already assumed and/or expected.

No biggie bro.

With your case, I have a feeling, it wouldn't have mattered if you said "No guy friends" or not.

First off, damn that guy comes off as a douche. Secondly, I don't see the connection to what we are discussing. If you understand that we are not chaining our girlfriends up in the basement, then you should understand that we are not sitting around "talking about our feelings" with them either. We're talking about a one time statement of our expectations. And I've never had to bring it up again in 11 years.

Speak for yourself. Although, there's a lot more to the video than the "talking about our feelings" part. lol

 

[zekko]

Where is this thread you speak of? In an Exclusive relationship, I have never not had consistent access to pvssy.

The thread is not that interesting, but my experience is the same as yours, which is why I disagreed with the dude:
http://www.sosuave.net/forum/showthread.php?t=223953

So be it, bro. I'm not neccessarily calling YOU that, you may be just that, up front and honest, okay. However, like I've said before, you've been with the same chick for 9 years, although, that's a good track record for not cheating, it's only one chick. Did she have any guy friends before she met you?

For what it's worth, Peaks, I think you are one of the more reasonable of the anti-boundary folks.

I've had two LTRs of considerable length (not including my high school girlfriend, who I dated for three years). I was with my (now ex)wife for 10 years. She firmly believed that opposite sex friends could cause trouble, so we saw eye to eye on that.

My current girlfriend, who I've lived with now for 11 years, she had a few orbiters. They were pretty harmless, but when she pressed for exclusivity I told her I would never seriously date a woman who hung out with male friends. So she got rid of them, since I was the priority. She didn't need the orbiters anymore, she found something better. BUT I got rid of the plate that I was seeing at the time also, so it all seems fair to me. It was all just part of the "becoming exclusive" process.

Boundary: You end up liking the part of her that reflects the person your terms made her into.

No boundary: She acts like her default self while you determine if/when to move on.

I think there is a third category of woman, which my girlfriend falls into. And that is the woman who molds herself to fit the man's world. She still retains all her personality, she's one of the most laid back and cool girls I have ever met. But the woman has to join the man's life, the man doesn't join the woman's life. As Tyler from RSD says: You are the tree, and the girl is the squirrel running around it. You are the island, and the girl rows around it in her boat. Metaphorically speaking.

 

[sylvester the cat]

Exactly. As guru stated a long time ago, the manner and mindset is what matters. Boundaries can be set from either a secure or insecure mindset. It is not the boundaries which are the issue, it is the mindset behind setting them.

If done from a position of weakness, of course they are useless and should never be done in this manner. If they are from a position of strength and expectations prior to commitment, then it is a whole new story.

Good. Then it looks like we are making headway.

For if a man does not care either way then it does not matter whether he sets out boundaries or if he does not for he does not care either way, no?

A man can set out boundaries from a secure or insecure frame and a man can not set out boundaries from a secure or insecure frame.

What matters is the mindset. Do you agree?

 

[Soolaimon]

So wait a minute.....purchasing her equity in a house is "paying her off large sums of money"???

No, it is not. You are just buying her portion of equity in the house. This is VASTLY different from a divorce and payment to the ex-wife.

Your argument holds no water.

You're crazy. When your relationship ends she is going to want whatever she paid into the home. Then she will walk away with the money that devalues your home. If she paid more or equal she may fight you on the home in court. You are still losing something like a married man does. Nothing you say holds any water. It never has. Keep trying to save face in your de facto marriage.

Nobody is controlling her, she can do as she wishes. And so can we as a result.

Right. Just like setting no boundaries with her. She is free to do as she wishes cause women have free will. Nice contradiction!

She can still go out for drinks with a co worker without you even knowing. Thus breaking your boundary cause she can't let you know. Boundaries make it easier for women to hide their affairs. It's easier to spot shady behavior with no boundaries.

I don't care if she accepts or declines the expectations of commitment

I believe you do care. That's why you are setting boundaries and expectations. Cause you care more than she does.

Expecting a woman to do something is totally different than having her actually doing it. Ask pairplusroyalflush and Social Leper how their verbal expectations turned out.

Always go on women's actions not their verbal words.

Nobody is controlling her, she can do as she wishes. And so can we as a result.

But you are doing her, yourself and the relationship a huge disservice if you do not communicate the expectations at the onset of her exclusivity request, simply because too many betas have trained her that, she can do as she wishes without repercussions or expectations.

So she can do as she wishes with boundaries. She can do as she wishes without boundaries.

Don't you see the fallacy and contradiction to your boundary theory?

When she can do as she wishes your expectations won't matter when she can do as she wishes not to follow them.

She isn't going to care about any repercussions or your expectations when she is breaking your boundary. That's why she is breaking your boundary. She doesn't care what happens. Are you people that stupid?

Telling her your expectations once isn't going to make any difference to her.

It's about interest and attraction. That's it.

If you told her once great. If you didn't you don't need to. As long as she is attracted to you she will be with you.

When her attraction is gone, she will be gone, even when you stated your expectations to her "once".

Still you guys can't understand that.

You guys think just cause you told her once she won't break your boundary and accepts your expectations.

She will agree to your expectations when her interest is high. She can still hang out with male friends behind your back. She can change her mind about your "agreement" later. You guys can't understand that either.

That is no measure to determine any success for boundaries nor does it filter anything.

Well, if you all understand that, then maybe some of you anti-boundary folk should stop with the name calling, calling us insecure and controlling.

LOL. You boundary guys can call the names yourself but you can't take any criticism of being called insecure when that's how you appear.

We're talking about a one time statement of our expectations.

If what she wants is to hang out with orbiters and male friends, then she is free to do that.

She is free to do whatever she wants.

So the boyfriend tells her once that he doesn't want her to hang out with any other men.

A month later she fvcks her old fvck buddy after he texts her to come over and fvck.

She is free to do whatever she wants. I've always said women have free will and you guys argued with me.

What good was the one time statement of the expectations?

It was useless.

I always leave the logical fallacies to you and Soolaimon(a true grandmaster)..

I am the Grandmaster of truth, wisdom, knowledge.

You like to live in a black and white world of fantasy and delusion.

Your last ex broke your boundary with ease refusing to come home from an orbiters house who you argued with on the phone to come home instead of enforcing your boundary.

You and Social Leper caved in on your boundaries like a house on weak foundation.

Telling a woman a one time expectation is easy for her to disregard when she can do as she wishes.

Women have free will to do what they want just like I've been telling you.

How are those fallacies?




I guess VikingKing and Tictac giving "red dots" didn't like what I had to say about boundaries.....Too bad

 

[Ft Steak]

Ft Worth Texas should be renamed Ft Steak Texas. Ft Worth is a dumb name. Ft Steak is a better name. Ft Steak should require every resident eats at least one steak daily. The steak capital of the world. Ft Steak Texas.

 

[sylvester the cat]

I partially agree on the mindset is what matters on the setting or not setting.

However I disagree on your second statement. Not caring depends upon what it is that we "do not care about". I could lose my gf tomorrow and I do not care because I can replace her. However I DO care that as long as I have given up other sexual options that she in turn must conduct herself in a manner befitting of a committed relationship.


Remember, indifference is powerful, but it's application is not universal nor is it your only toolset for obtaining what you deserve in return for the value you offer. One can be indifferent but one should also always have expectations. They are not mutually exclusive.

A man can care that his gfriend conducts herself in a befitting manner by setting boundaries and by not setting boundaries. Do you agree?

 

[sylvester the cat]

The expectation that she conducts herself in a manner befitting a woman in a relationship is there regardless of setting the boundary.

The challenge today is that beta men are too afraid to have an expectation, and thus women are never trained on the proper way to conduct themselves when in a relationship.

One of the major purposes of the boundary is to reset that training so she behaves in the proper manner of respect towards said relationship. Without the verbal communication at the onset of her exclusivity request, she quite simply does not know any better.

Either that or you just defined a low quality woman. Does a high quality woman need to be told this?

 

[zekko]

The expectation that she conducts herself in a manner befitting a woman in a relationship is there regardless of setting the boundary

Agreed. One of the benefits of a boundary is that if she tries to hang on to her orbiters too hard, or if she outright disagrees with it, then it saves you from wasting any more time with her (except maybe as a plate). If you do as some suggest here, and "wait for the situation to come up", maybe months or years later, you've wasted all that time with her since she is unfit for LTR status (for me, anyway).

betas are perfectly happy for their women to run amok and so for many women this is the new normal.

The idea that effectively dating (i.e hangouts, going for drinks, texting, etc) other guys is wrong is less prevalent than you might think.

Right, my girlfriend's ex-boyfriend was in favor of having opposite sex friends. In fact, he ended up cheating on her. She was somewhat surprised that I wouldn't put up with them, and I got the feeling she appreciated and respected that I had a (perhaps) wiser, and more mature viewpoint. A decent woman should be able to learn from you and grow.

Regarding opposite sex friends: I think the younger you are, and the way youth culture is (now and in the past), the more likely you are to have opposite sex friends. It takes awhile to learn that "men and women can't be friends" - not really, so it's no surprise that the older guys here are more likely to be against it. I'm not saying there are no exceptions, but I generally believe that to be true, and there is plenty of evidence to support that if you read this forum.

 

[sylvester the cat]

the reality still exists that we have successfully set boundaries, we get laid whenever we wish, while the anti-boundary crew has their women dating other men and doling out sex.

This is a fallacy. The truth is that dishonorable women cheat on both men who do and men who do not set boundaries verbally at the onset of a relationship. It is not the boundary that prevents a woman from cheating but her quality of character and no amount of boundaries (passive or aggressive) will change that.

That only men who set boundaries verbally at the onset of a relationship get laid whenever they wish is also a fallacy. The truth is both men who do and men who do not set out verbal boundaries can get laid as much as they wish. It is not the boundary setting that determines whether a man gets laid but his desire and will to act upon that desire to get laid.

I defined the reality of how women are trained today. I do not define the quality of women based upon how a beta trained them. If she provides what I desire, without dragging the baggage I disqualify for, and she is trainable, then she meets my definition of "high quality".

When we train people to do certain things what is the best way to train them? Verbally or actively? Can a man build muscle by reading a book or does he go to the gym and start lifting weights? Does a man learn game by sitting in a classroom lecture or by going out in the field and sarging?

In any case this really isn't a pro or anti boundary argument as we have already established both parties set boundaries (one passively, the other aggressively) and by doing so show they are unwilling to accept disrespect from their woman. If a man wants to waste his time learning what he could have discovered at the outset then so be it. That is his business. So what are we arguing about again exactly?

 

[zekko]

In any case this really isn't a pro or anti boundary argument as we have already established both parties set boundaries (one passively, the other aggressively) and by doing so show they are unwilling to accept disrespect from their woman. If a man wants to waste his time learning what he could have discovered at the outset then so be it. That is his business. So what are we arguing about again exactly?

Everybody sets boundaries, even if they only set them in their mind. Except maybe for a very few people who have open relationships AND firmly believe in them.

Apparently however, when we talk about boundaries, we are specifically talking about a girl hanging out with orbiters and "male friends" while in a relationship. Because that seems to be the only subject people object to having boundaries about. Everyone seems perfectly okay with not allowing your girlfriend to smoke, to spend your money, to run up credit card debt, overeating, having bad habits, etc. But if you're not okay with her going out with male friends, THAT'S when the "insecure" word comes out, and they start accusing you of being controlling.

Funny thing is, half of the "anti-boundary" people now are NOT okay with their girl hanging out with male friends. But (in their opinion), under NO CIRCUMSTANCES are you ever allowed to say that to the girl, because if you do, then you are "insecure". It's a strange world.

 

[sylvester the cat]

Everybody sets boundaries, even if they only set them in their mind. Except maybe for a very few people who have open relationships AND firmly believe in them.

Apparently however, when we talk about boundaries, we are specifically talking about a girl hanging out with orbiters and "male friends" while in a relationship. Because that seems to be the only subject people object to having boundaries about. Everyone seems perfectly okay with not allowing your girlfriend to smoke, to spend your money, to run up credit card debt, overeating, having bad habits, etc. But if you're not okay with her going out with male friends, THAT'S when the "insecure" word comes out, and they start accusing you of being controlling.

Funny thing is, half of the "anti-boundary" people now are NOT okay with their girl hanging out with male friends. But (in their opinion), under NO CIRCUMSTANCES are you ever allowed to say that to the girl, because if you do, then you are "insecure". It's a strange world.

Ok. As I said before there is not a man on this planet that does not have an insecurity about something at some time. The insecurity does not maketh the man. A man can have an insecurity but that doesn't mean he IS insecure.

A man who sets boundaries out of an insecurity is subsequently secure as a result of said boundary.

Likewise a man who does not set boundaries out of insecurity or the fear of appearing insecure is also secure.

It is a matter of priorities.

 

[sylvester the cat]

I am with Zekko in saying that I will not stand by and let these people insult men and call them insecure for not wanting to commit to women who want to date other men.

As far as you know, you haven't been cheated on. This doesn't mean you haven't been cheated on.

As far as people name calling you I don't know why it bothers you so much if you are as secure as you say you are.

 

[Atom Smasher]

Question for All:

Why does a father set boundaries for his children?

 

[sylvester the cat]

I may not be a genius, but it seems to me the woman "won" this scenario if they are able to date as they wish without repercussions, even when in a committed relationship. And now we have men attacking other men for daring to say "no thanks" to that. It seems obvious to me that the anti-boundary men are fighting for the feminine imperative, even if they don't realize it.

As I pointed out before both parties set out boundaries and I have never heard it said by the 'antis' that their gfriends dating (in the true sense of the word) other men was acceptable.

For the record I have had this chat with my current gfriend at the point we went exclusive. It was an informal discussion where it was agreed that her seeing men friends and going nightclubbing was unacceptable and would result in instant downgrading to fbuddy at best and termination of any relations at worst. She also expected the same in return from me. She was smart enough to realise that this went without saying but we said it anyway. Verbal rules enforced by action should the need arise.

Perhaps it is the manner in which the 'antis' are in disagreement. I don't know. In my previous relationship this discussion never came up once and she regularly went out with male friends and I am positive that she never cheated on me but then I didn't really care that much for her really. Against my better judgement I actually care about this one so who knows? Maybe it did come from a place of insecurity. If I had it my way I wouldn't be in a relationship. I liked the freedom of singledom. It was less hassle and less worries and I was richer and healthier. Even now I am aware when I see a piece of a$$ that I know would be DTF I have to remind myself I am in a committed relationship so there is no reason to believe she secretly isn't doing the same - we are all rational beings with animal desires after all. Either way I'm man enough to admit it. Does it really matter? If she leaves, she leaves. I'm not scared of being single.

 

[sylvester the cat]

Question for All:

Why does a father set boundaries for his children?

Because a child, fairly new to the world really doesn't know any better.

How many people are really familiar with the law? A very small percentage yet they will be told by the courts that ignorance is no excuse should they inadvertently break a law.

 

[Peaks&Valleys]

Question for All:

Why does a father set boundaries for his children?

Can children choose another father if they don't like the current one?

 

[sylvester the cat]

If you think women know better then I challenge you how do they know better? Basic empathy? Its long been taught here that women have limited empathy when it comes to men. Cultural values? lol. Past boyfriends? Doubtful.

I'm not against boundaries. I was just answering the question.

We are not taught law in school yet ignorance of said law is not an excuse for a defense.

If both men and women are accountable for knowing right from wrong in a court of law then it seems reasonable that they should be accountable in a relationship.

 

[sylvester the cat]

Even in law there are degrees of culpability and the element of intent must be proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

Yes but aren't you implying a woman doesn't know the difference between right and wrong hence the need for boundaries?

A woman knows right from wrong. She may not admit it but she does know. If she insists on seeing other men whilst in a relationship that's all the elements of intent one needs.

What are we arguing about? I'm not even disagreeing with you. I'm starting to wonder if boundaries is even the real issue here or if this is just a giant p1ssing contest? Who can juggle words the most convincingly...