Question for the guys who are married/have been married.

[betheman]

So if I answer 30 years of happy marriage does that give me more credibility? What about if I say we've been together in a committed relationship for 30 years but only married for the last 3? Any change in credibility there? Also is the relationship suddenly doomed because I signed the dreaded papers?

You guys argue about there being no need for a man to get "officially" married yet somehow I don't think the paperwork is the issue.

Firstly, stop being so defensive

Credibility? yes if you have been married say more than a few years, gone through a bit of turmoil which is all part of marriage.
for me, id been married for over 20 years, 4 kids, all grown up now, I felt very much like you for many many years. My ex wife had our children despite being hospitalised each time and suffering post natal depression each time, she deserves a fccuking medal, she chose to do that because she loved me.

However in time, we grew apart, we went through a lot of adversity and along the way lost the ability to enjoy each other, always seemed to be work or do or some other massive stress impinging on our life.

no one else involved, we separated and divorced, we are still close though and I amde sure she and the kids were and are still looked after.

Im not knocking marriage, for the most part I loved it and the regrets of not living the single life are outweighed by the joys the marriage brought, 4 great kids, a delightful grandaughter and a great son in law. I think I was quite lucky.

life changes, people and situation change, these are just other things to factor into marriage.
I can also see why some men are put of marriage from some of the horror stories out there, men do make bad choices but there are also some very devious and manipulative women out there, mine wasnt one of them, it all boils down to screenign and qualifying and NOT RUSHING IN!

good luck to you and your wife slick, you both sound happy, long may it continue

 

[Tazman]

I think it's very telling that when you ask guys to be "specific" about "why" they themselves got married or want to get married, it's like pulling teeth (in this particular thread).

You see all kinds of reasoning, rationalizations, even shaming toward those who dare to even ask the question, but alas, no straight forward answer to a very simple question (with the exception of Backbreaker's last post, which took some egging on from The Assistant.

Make no mistake, these questions are only being asked for the sake of discussion, most guys reading this already have opinions as to why, I just needed explicit statements from the guys themselves to avoid arguments that would inevitably arise if people were to go off assumptions. Yet it seems almost impossible to see something along the lines of "The reason/s I got married is/are _________".

Instead you get all kinds of explanations surrounding the pertinent question being asked, which is why did YOU get married, plain and simple.

I'm not trying to bust balls, just trying to get to the meat of the discussion.

I just saw your response Slickster, but again, the word "commitment" isn't very explanatory. We already know marriage is a form of commitment. What's the difference between a commitment made with marriage and one without it? Why did you choose to make this form of commitment?

 

[betheman]

Why?

we were friends, we became close, she was sexy, grounded, funny, didnt flake, had the same values and moral beliefs I did.
I was in my mid 20's I liked the idea of having kids, to do that, I believed in marriage as a way of providing the most stable upbringing for them, security and committment, I loved my wife, marriage is thestrongest statement of comittment you can send out to your partner, your family and the outside world, I wanted that and so did she

 

[Slickster]

Betheman: Sorry if it seems like I'm getting defensive but as I'm sure you know this isn't exactly the most marriage friendly forum. Which is exactly why I don't like to give out too many details about my married life. I haven't been married for long but so far so good. Hopefully if things go sour I will be as lucky as you.


Tazman: I'm pretty sure I've said it twice now. I got married because I WANTED to make THAT commitment. I guess that must be difficult for some people to understand. I didn't need to make a long list of pros and cons or analyze it to death. I wanted to be married to her. It really was that simple for me. Hopefully that is straight forward enough.

 

[Tazman]

So far the only person who gave straight answers was Backbreaker, after some prodding. Saying the reason you got married was because "you wanted to make that commitment" is stating the obvious and remains evasive so long as you don't define what is meant by your use of the word "commitment".

Actually, Betheman gave more of an answer after reading his last post. His reasons can be discussed, unfortunately I don't have time right now. lol, I haven't posted this much in a while.

 

[user43770]

If you are going to get married, you better do it young so that you don't have to settle for the cougs and ****-carousel leftovers that remain single into their 30's and 40's.

Where do you think you're going to end up if you get divorced? You'll be thrown into the same dating market, only you'll have spent the prime of your life with one woman.

 

[Slickster]

So far the only person who gave straight answers was Backbreaker, after some prodding. Saying the reason you got married was because "you wanted to make that commitment" is stating the obvious and remains evasive so long as you don't define what is meant by your use of the word "commitment".

Actually, Betheman gave more of an answer after reading his last post. His reasons can be discussed, unfortunately I don't have time right now. lol, I haven't posted this much in a while.

Sorry Tazman, I figured you were directing your argument in an attempt to make me admit that I was somehow pressured or brainwashed into marriage. Hence my statements that it was something I wanted to do.

If you want me to list some reasons for getting married just so you can counter with "Why couldn't you accomplish those things without signing some papers" then why bother? We all know there is no logical or physical benefit for getting legally married other than some faint notion of security or family. It has made me very happy though and for that reason it is worth it to me.

Throughout this entire debate my only real point has been to provide another perspective to the anti-marriage view. I really feel there is an unfair bias that isn't being recognized either.

At the end of our lives we all end up dead anyway. We all want to spend our time living in a way so that when we reach the end we are content with our lives, choices, and experiences. If we can make it that far with little or no regrets then that is somehow deemed success in my opinion.

If choosing to believe in marriage means that I'm living in the "matrix" and not seeing things as they truly are then I guess I'm just blind, dumb, and happy. If I manage to make it to the end feeling happy and content about my choices in life then what does it matter?

If my marriage blows up in my face and I come to realize the so called "truth" about marriage am I in any worse position than the guy who knew better and never got married in the first place? Financially maybe, but the financial implications of divorce don't concern me much. It's not like we get to take our money with us when we die. If anything I'll lie on my deathbed knowing that at least I tried.

While many guys around here want to buck the system and never get married due to the financial risks. I choose to buck another system and not let money be the primary focus of my life. The risks of divorce don't worry me and marriage seems worth it to me. In fact I choose not to think or focus on such things as they are negatives. I believe that our thoughts create our realities.

I'm sure you'll say that if I never signed those papers I could still look back, reflect on my life and be happy with that choice. I probably could. All I know is that after many, many committed LTR's I've never felt as good about my life as I did after I got married.

If my wife and I don't make it. I'm sure I'll be fine. I'll be better for the experience.

 

[Jitterbug]

Slickster, this forum isn't a secret place where anti-marriage guys gather. Rather, Western society and modern culture are very anti-marriage. I'm on a few other forums related to my hobbies (nothing to do with women) and the guys there are just as anti-marriage. The social & legal environment they live in created their attitude.

I do understand the importance of choosing the right woman to marry. My father taught me plenty about that, and he himself practiced it diligently. However, in his time, men had more power, and in the case of divorce, he would not be in his wife's mercy.

In our time, women have enormous social and legal power over men. The only thing you have is some pseudo-psychological power (might be called Game) over a woman. The finance part in a divorce of course is a huge factor, but there are many other ways a pissed off soon-to-be ex-wife can really ruin a man. You are at your wife's mercy. Your positive attitude is somewhat admirable, but do understand that many men don't consider such a weak position desirable. I don't want to have to worry that one day, if I'm unfortunate enough to be weak, and that my Game slipped a little, the one person I have close to me and am supposed to trust with my life will hit me where it hurts the most. From what I've seen, no wife initiates divorce when times are good. It's always when the husband is down & weak. Some wives deliver a few extra kicks just for good measure, and our legal system and society applaud them.

It's no surprise that when there's no incentive to get married but huge life-ruining risks instead, men don't want to.

 

[Slickster]

Slickster, this forum isn't a secret place where anti-marriage guys gather.

Really? Maybe it's time for a poll?

The finance part in a divorce of course is a huge factor, but there are many other ways a pissed off soon-to-be ex-wife can really ruin a man.

Can you expand on that?

You are at your wife's mercy.

Gosh that seems a little over dramatic. I envision whips and torture when you speak like this. If she's truly that evil then take every thing then. I'll be fine with the clothes on my back. I'd walk out of there with a smile if that was the type of person I was dealing with.

It's no surprise that when there's no incentive to get married but huge life-ruining risks instead, men don't want to.

Fair enough but when almost every single man that has ever been thru a divorce blames it entirely on his wife it gets a little ridiculous. Not taking any responsibility whatsoever for poor choices and actions and then standing on the soapbox preaching against marriage is super biased. We all know that the majority of men out there are clueless pvssies when it comes to women. So why side with them when they fvck up their marriages?

I know I'm better than most guys out there when it comes to awareness in regards to women. I think most of the guys here are too. At least that's what they're aiming for. I think if you get to a point where you are enlightened enough then you will avoid a lot of the pitfalls that men have traditionally fallen into. Isn't that the point?

 

[KarmaSutra]

Having been married, then divorced (how many of you can say you were bought out of your marriage?), I have a voice of experience you guys who share this never have/never will mentality, would ever hope to have.

The remedy? All of my years of post marriage bliss have led me to this:

KarmaSutra's Love Lease!​

Look closely at any overpriced item you believe you have to own:

A rusty old joloppy who's use has been mired by many hands both inside and out of it's holiest of holies.

The apartment/house you're moving into, with the fresh coat of paint and new carpet (we all know some foolishness has happened before Benjamin Moore was applied to cover up her nastiness.)

Or the Jet-ski you so desperately yearn for. Which will be soon timeworn from all of the salty evil skimming crashed waves and her bile.

Like a wife, these items will need replacing with new and fresh toys to play with. Instead of an outright purchase with cash or, much worse; credit, it only makes logical sense to lease her.

If she's so intent on signing a contract, have her sign a year-long

KarmaSutra's Love Lease!​

.

You'll find her true intent known. The added bonus is that you can part ways amicably or, as is most realistic, you can cut your lease early without the Government noose tightening around your throat.

I'm completely serious about this and I have talked to two attorney's about this proposal. I'm in the process of patenting this Love Lease.

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

Why does a man get married?

I can remember a conversation I had with my late father where I was asking him about why he married my mom. I could never get a straight answer out of him, but he wasn't being elusive. I was younger and unmarried then, now that I'm older I think I understand he was telling me the the truth when he said "It seemed like a good idea at the time." He honestly thought he and my mother could make a life together when they got married in their mid 20s.

The reason I asked him was because I knew virtually nothing about their courtship and how such disparate personalities could come together and thus have me. He passed away back in September last year and I rooted through his old photo albums with my mom. Here was this life my father lived in these photos that I had no inkling of. Shots of my parents years before my brother and I even came into existence. Lots of shots from their sailing days in the early 60s, friends whom I had never heard of mention of, and an early life where no children were present. Just from perusing these shots I got a whole new perspective of my old man. He was in love with my mom, my mother who'd left the family in the mid 70s. They divorced when I was about 8 I think, and since then I've only ever known them as separate entities.

I think if most guys are honest with themselves, on some level they buy the idea that they and some idyllic woman can live out a plan or be happy together for a lifetime. I honestly couldn't tell you why I proposed to Mrs. Tomassi. I wasn't forced by pregnancy or emotionally coerced by some BPD's neurosis. I can only echo my Dad's words now, "It seemed like a good idea at the time." I still do, and I'm not naive as to knowing what could happen, and that women are fully capable of betraying a man after 20 years of marriage. There is no security in marriage.

Men are the true romantics, not women. They talk a good game, but it's men who are the real slaves to romanticism. It's men who conceive every romantic gesture. Mrs. Tomassi wears the wedding ring my father picked out for my mom all those years ago. The backstory is kind of lost on her, she just loves the ring and life goes on. We want to believe in the fairy tale. We want to believe we'll be the exception against all odds and every horror story. My father was probably the most uninspired man you'd ever meet when it came to women. He was very analytical, he was very ordered in his life, but he was also a hopeless savior for the women in his life. I wouldn't call him a White Knight; he was much too rational for chivalry, but he did what he did because even he, the staunch atheist, believed marriage could make you happy. At some point my old man looked at that ring in the jewelry store and thought "yeah, that's a good one, I could see that on my wife."

 

[KarmaSutra]

This is the most important post any of us could ever read.

Rollo, condolences on your Pop.

Wonderful story. One which I have contemplated over. My mother is in recovery from breast cancer, and my Pop has a bum ticker and a brain tumor.

I'm familiar with the shortness of our lives here. I appreciate my Parents more now than I ever thought possible. When I go up North to visit my Mom, I'm going to write my Mom's life journey. Her passions, her purpose, the men in her life.

Everything. Nothing will be left out. I'm doing the same for my Pop now.

Incidentally, In my talks with Pop and the subsequent research,I recently found out I may not be the eldest Brother. I may have an older Brother somewhere.

It makes us better men uncovering the history of our Parents.

 

[Bible_Belt]

There is no security in marriage.

I think forgetting that little fact is the #1 cause of divorce and the ending of long relationships. After someone is around for a long time, it's easy to forget that they don't really have to be there, and thus treat them poorly. Both genders are equally guilty.

 

[zekko]

Fair enough but when almost every single man that has ever been thru a divorce blames it entirely on his wife it gets a little ridiculous.

For what it's worth, I freely admit I was not an ideal husband. As I told my soon to be ex-wife at the time, I was willing to take 50% of the blame. She, however, wanted to blame it 100% on me. She would bear no responsibility whatsoever (which was BS).

Regardless, as I said before, I'm not bitter about it. She seemed to suffer some sort of mental breakdown that caused her to react irrationally. I don't pretend to understand it. Some here have theorized that she was experiencing menopausal symptoms, which I suppose is possible.

I would have stayed with her, but she wanted a divorce, and was no longer a source of comfort for me, only irritation, so I happily let her go. It was a relief more than anything, like no longer pounding your head against a wall.

 

[cordoncordon]

Why does a man get married?

I can remember a conversation I had with my late father where I was asking him about why he married my mom. I could never get a straight answer out of him, but he wasn't being elusive. I was younger and unmarried then, now that I'm older I think I understand he was telling me the the truth when he said "It seemed like a good idea at the time." He honestly thought he and my mother could make a life together when they got married in their mid 20s.

The reason I asked him was because I knew virtually nothing about their courtship and how such disparate personalities could come together and thus have me. He passed away back in September last year and I rooted through his old photo albums with my mom. Here was this life my father lived in these photos that I had no inkling of. Shots of my parents years before my brother and I even came into existence. Lots of shots from their sailing days in the early 60s, friends whom I had never heard of mention of, and an early life where no children were present. Just from perusing these shots I got a whole new perspective of my old man. He was in love with my mom, my mother who'd left the family in the mid 70s. They divorced when I was about 8 I think, and since then I've only ever known them as separate entities.

I think if most guys are honest with themselves, on some level they buy the idea that they and some idyllic woman can live out a plan or be happy together for a lifetime. I honestly couldn't tell you why I proposed to Mrs. Tomassi. I wasn't forced by pregnancy or emotionally coerced by some BPD's neurosis. I can only echo my Dad's words now, "It seemed like a good idea at the time." I still do, and I'm not naive as to knowing what could happen, and that women are fully capable of betraying a man after 20 years of marriage. There is no security in marriage.

Men are the true romantics, not women. They talk a good game, but it's men who are the real slaves to romanticism. It's men who conceive every romantic gesture. Mrs. Tomassi wears the wedding ring my father picked out for my mom all those years ago. The backstory is kind of lost on her, she just loves the ring and life goes on. We want to believe in the fairy tale. We want to believe we'll be the exception against all odds and every horror story. My father was probably the most uninspired man you'd ever meet when it came to women. He was very analytical, he was very ordered in his life, but he was also a hopeless savior for the women in his life. I wouldn't call him a White Knight; he was much too rational for chivalry, but he did what he did because even he, the staunch atheist, believed marriage could make you happy. At some point my old man looked at that ring in the jewelry store and thought "yeah, that's a good one, I could see that on my wife."

Great post as usual. And I agree 100000000% with your "men being more romantic" statement. Women love to fantasize about a great Hollywood romance, but in the end, it is men who truly are the romantics at heart. I think that is part of the reason men have such a harder time moving on from a breakup, where as women for the most part seem to move right on no problem. Of course there are other variables such as evolutionary traits in men like mating with as many females as possible and fighting for them, and also women can basically walk up to any man she doesn't know and say "lets have sex" and the man will, whereas a man would get slapped, but deep down, losing a woman truly strikes at a mans inner core and their need/want for romance.

 

[Slickster]

Good post Rollo,

Sorry to hear about your father.

Your post has me thinking about how much our parents relationships/marriages affect our own. Somewhere there must have been a study showing the relationship between divorce rates in that case. (ie. if the parents were separated/divorced is there a greater rate of divorce in their children's marriages.)

I think back on all my relationships and can see just how similar those girls were to their mothers. Also how the attitudes that they brought to our relationships were very similar to those of their parents.

I knew a lot of guys who would freak when they had to meet the girlfriends parents but that is really when you get your best insight to who your girl really is and who she will become.

Gosh, if you want to know if your girl is marriage material maybe you should just go spend a weekend with the family.

 

[Jitterbug]

Fair enough but when almost every single man that has ever been thru a divorce blames it entirely on his wife it gets a little ridiculous.

I don't really care about who blames who for what. After a relationship breakup, the fingers will start pointing. The big difference here is that social and legal powers are on HER side, not his. His blaming her is just blowing off some steam at best and bitter man's ranting at worst, her blaming him will get him socially ostracized and in legal troubles.

You do know that one of the standard procedures for divorce lawyers is to get the wife to accuse the husband of abuse, so she can get the kids, the house and more money more easily?

And yes I'm saying that you are at your wife's mercy in a divorce, because you are relying on her being a decent person and not using her tremendous social and legal powers over you to really fvck you up. Many men have found that cupcakes are not so merciful.

I do not want to be subjected to anyone's mercy if things don't work out (and there's a big chance that will happen).

 

[jophil28]

Gosh, if you want to know if your girl is marriage material maybe you should just go spend a weekend with the family.

"maybe" ?

I would suggest that close observation over time of her original family model is absolutely essential. The way that her family "does" marriage will be the way that she does marriage.

 

[sodbuster]

Maybe after almost drowning,I'm a bit more cautious about getting into a kayak,but for you to say I'm not going anywhere? Just because I'm not going your direction doesn't mean I'm not going anywhere. "Got the truck up and running." Bought land, negotiated a wind farm lease on it[KNOW there's oil under it-if it's going to make me money,not sure, found it in the 50's-wasn't feasible then],sending my eldest to college this fall [kids are a benefit I can see to marriage],investing in the market etc. Just choose not to be married right now. Would warn anyone to think twice about it.

 

[Slickster]

Maybe after almost drowning,I'm a bit more cautious about getting into a kayak,but for you to say I'm not going anywhere? Just because I'm not going your direction doesn't mean I'm not going anywhere. "Got the truck up and running." Bought land, negotiated a wind farm lease on it[KNOW there's oil under it-if it's going to make me money,not sure, found it in the 50's-wasn't feasible then],sending my eldest to college this fall [kids are a benefit I can see to marriage],investing in the market etc. Just choose not to be married right now. Would warn anyone to think twice about it.

Aww man you're taking stuff too literally. This whole marriage debate gets out of hand every time I swear. It sounds like you've got a lot of good and interesting stuff going on. That's great.

Your comment "Just because I'm not going your direction doesn't mean I'm not going anywhere." holds true. The same thing applies to those guys who want to get married. Just because it didn't work for you doesn't mean it won't work for me or anyone else.

These marriage threads always start and evolve the same. Someone asks a question about getting married. Then a bunch of guys get all negative about it. Next there are a few people who try to express a different more positive view and the discussion gets all twisted.

We all choose our own paths that "seem" right for us "at the time". Maybe we need to acknowledge that a bit more in these discussions and not be so critical.