Purpose of School?

[Pook]

Originally posted by Interpol
This is only a logical statement if you make the assumption that my time spent in college is completely worthless.

No one is saying that college is worthless. But if you do little more in college than do well on tests, your college becomes nothing more than a piece of paper degree.

With a university, you have very smart professors available to you. You have many resources available to you. I learned a lot when I 'branched out' and took classes I normally wouldn't take, like acting. Acting was a lot of fun for me and I hope to do more of it. What knowledge does acting have in anything? Nothing much. But it really changed the way how I thought to communicate, and communication is always a very big deal.

it's a simple fact that most people just aren't that motivated or inspired! The world needs followers just as much as leaders. If everyone was a leader, no one would get anywhere.

A business is not where you declare yourself leader and everyone follows you. That may be politics, but not business. The first (free) chapter of the book, Art of the Start, by the guy behind the Macintosh gives a very good overview on how the small business start ups really work.

Let us say I make a company called Pook Inc. The mantra and mission statement of the company is to celebrate and show everyone 'how to be a man'. This could be done through books, magazines, videos, seminars, whatever. The business model is how the business will recieve income from doing this. There, I just made my typing on a 'how to get girls' forum into a business. It is that easy.

All businesses have a mission, a type of crusade of bettering the world somehow. Google's mission is not a search engine. Google's mission is communication. This is why if Microsoft came out with its own google-like search engine, Google will be far ahead with its other models of communication. What's annoying is that by being the employee, you fulfill the company's mission. But if you start a business, you are defining the mission. And it can be anything.

You don't have to start a business or invest, but everyone ought to know their options. Oddly enough, many people work hard, study hard, go into debt a lot of money, to go into an Ivy League school in hopes of working for college drop outs like Bill Gates, and Michael Dell.

 

[Pook]

Originally posted by RepphIz
what do u mean rich!? as in have millions? when ur a lawyer or a doctor, tell me u wont make millions off these professions! or real estate agent (realtors i think)!?

doctors pull off $100,000+ per year! 10 years a million is in your bank

The doctor and lawyer have a lot of money, yes, but they do not have wealth. Wealth is defined by how long you don't have to work.

Take the example of Sandy and Charles. Sandy dropped out of high school. With no career options, she got training in hair stylists, and proceeded to open her own business. She hired other girls and trained them. She soon created a business sytem of hair stylists.

Charles, on the other hand, went to law school. Once he got out, he was paid by the hour (as lawyers are). He made lots of money but he also had lots of expenses.

Questions: which one can take a vacation when he/she wants to? Which one can retire? Which one is free?

Sandy is the financially free one. If Charles doesn't work, he doesn't get paid. But Sandy can go on a vacation, return, and find her business more profitable than when she left.

It's not about the income. It's about the cashflow.

 

[RepphIz]

Originally posted by Pook
The doctor and lawyer have a lot of money, yes, but they do not have wealth. Wealth is defined by how long you don't have to work.
if you have a lot of money, u dont have to work as much as opposed if u didnt

Take the example of Sandy and Charles. Sandy dropped out of high school.
sandy is doomed :crackup::crackup:

With no career options, she got training in hair stylists, and proceeded to open her own business. She hired other girls and trained them. She soon created a business sytem of hair stylists.

Charles, on the other hand, went to law school. Once he got out, he was paid by the hour (as lawyers are). He made lots of money but he also had lots of expenses.
expense? dont they both have the same expense?

Questions: which one can take a vacation when he/she wants to? Which one can retire? Which one is free?
id say the lawyer, more money, more vacation, more chance or better luck of retiring

Sandy is the financially free one. If Charles doesn't work, he doesn't get paid. But Sandy can go on a vacation, return, and find her business more profitable than when she left.
how is that possible that she leave and find her business growing without her!?

It's not about the income. It's about the cashflow.
explain because they are the same thing arent they!?

 

[Engetsu]

Make the right decision, and go into medicine or pharmacy if you really want to make school worthwhile.

The other domains are bull. As was said higher up (don't remember by whom): it's who you know, not what you know.

 

[RepphIz]

Originally posted by Engetsu
Make the right decision, and go into medicine or pharmacy if you really want to make school worthwhile.
yea! be a doctor! a pharmacist! they are all good jobs! whatever you work as, work work hard!!!!

The other domains are bull. As was said higher up (don't remember by whom): it's who you know, not what you know.

if that was true, u wouldn't need to be nothing
JUST WORK, it's WHAT You know ,NOT who u know, who u know=useless

 

[Interpol]

Originally posted by Pook
The doctor and lawyer have a lot of money, yes, but they do not have wealth. Wealth is defined by how long you don't have to work.

Take the example of Sandy and Charles. Sandy dropped out of high school. With no career options, she got training in hair stylists, and proceeded to open her own business. She hired other girls and trained them. She soon created a business sytem of hair stylists.

Charles, on the other hand, went to law school. Once he got out, he was paid by the hour (as lawyers are). He made lots of money but he also had lots of expenses.

Questions: which one can take a vacation when he/she wants to? Which one can retire? Which one is free?

Sandy is the financially free one. If Charles doesn't work, he doesn't get paid. But Sandy can go on a vacation, return, and find her business more profitable than when she left.

It's not about the income. It's about the cashflow.

Cute little story, what you neglect is the FACT that most businesses fail within the first 5 years, especially businesses started by people who just get out of high school!

All your arguments have based around your belief that college trains you to be an employee and a robot and teaches you nothing about running a business. But Sandy goes to beauty school and somehow learns how to run her own salon? You don't even mention the possibility that Charles could come out of law school and start his own law firm! By painting things in such black and white terms and neglecting crucial facts you are contributing to the UNREALISTIC EXPECTATIONS that run rampant on this board.

I don't know how old you are or how long ago you went to college, but nowadays any top-tier business school offers entrepreneurship programs. A few of my friends (undergradutate students) already own and run their own businesses on top of their schoolwork! My school even has a program that will help you develop a business plan and refer you to venture capitalists even if you are only a sophomore or junior! Can you explain to me how this is "training [them] to be employees"?

Another implied theme in your posts is that if you graduate from college and go work for someone else, you are doomed to be an employee for life...That is BS! I would strongly encourage people who hope to be entrepreneurs to spend time working for other people first so that they see how business works from ALL perspectives before thinking they now how to run one. How can you motivate and understand your employees when you don't even know what it's like to be one?

 

[Jvesti]

I personally dropped college to emerse myself into entrepreneurial ventures to follow my passion to learn how to effectively run businesses and develope the abilities crucial to becoming highly effective as a human being that they dont teach at college. The drum of ambition kept beating louder and louder which droned out my school studies. Eventually I got mononucleosis which forced me to drop out that semester. I haven't been back ever since. That was about a year and a half ago.

You may ask why? The reason being is being weighing in the pro's and con's WHICH BOTH HAVE. The necessity for college in regards to what I want to do simply does NOT make sense. In fact I believe a college degree can trap a person in mediocrity. After meeting countless people upon people interested in entrepreneurship i keep seeing the same thing over and over.

Why does college not make sense to me. Maybe things can be extricated from this:

- I dont need a diploma to start a business.

- I can run a successful business without having to sit in a class and get a piece of paper. Its proven, in fact only 10% or less of the self mades billionaires in this country have any kind of degree in business. Most have lib arts degrees about 30% are college dropouts. The percentage of drop outs goes higher as you look at the top 20 self made richest in US. Dont believe me go to www.forbes.com and study the list.

- If i need to educate myself on a subject to get an understanding of it I go and DO IT! I go to the library, I go to the bookstore and I actually DO things involved in it. This is the information age!!! There is no secret knowledge hidden away at a college somewhere that I can only get in a secret college textbook. Why should I pay some self righteous arrogant liberal professor to spout **** to me in the reading almost verbatim. I dont need someone to hold my hand to read a book. (but generally at the younger ages, discipline hasn't been developed to do so and in some cases never developes)

(On a sidenote, most of the best lesson i've learned have been through DOING and taking risks, esp in sales)

This is something most people lack that CANT be taught in college, most people aren't going to pick up books and study on their own initiative in a very intense way. Usually it takes pressure from family, friends, being graded by others, fear for them to pick up books and study. College is a great way to force motivation, but once you get out, what then?

This takes personal initiative to develope and can't be taught. Initiative seperates leaders from followers.

- I only see a job as a means of raising funds FOR MY BUSINESS VENTURES. Therefore looking at college as an investment to create money. If i spend 50-100k on college 4 Years. Looking for the highest payin job Engineer/business management. I will come out of the gates makin 25-40k and really no more for a few years. THEN I will have my tuition fees to contend with.

OOOPS forgot about grad school that's another 2 years and more money.

Whereas if i needed to raise funds through a job I can simply get a real estate agent license, car sales, high end service sales and apply my initiative/ethic I have DEVELOPED and realistically be able to make 60 - 120k even more within 2 or 3 years. (yup i can work 14-16 hour days, 6-7 days a week and a love it)

Even as a union electrician I can make 40k and above within about 4 - 5 years. I'll have a pension fund starting. And won't have outrageous tuition bills to contend with.

- Every wealthy businessman I know does not have a college degree. For example - my step cousin is making a killing real estate investing in cali.

And my father's uncle created a multi-mill advertising firm, invented things etc without one.

- Every person in college or with a degree I know that seems extremely enthusiastic about entrepreneurship can';t bring themselves to act. I've networked heavily and notice that there is no action especially in the younger individuals.

You can't teach action, you can't teach risk in school. These people are trapped in cush lifestyles they can't pull themselves away from. They've got their tuition bills to pay, bills for the nice toys they bought with this newly found money they were never taught to handle. If they jump from their jobs, their risking their career as an employee, looking like a consistent worker, essentially wasting the use of their degree.

P.S. Most of these people look to me for advice and business education and knowhow and try to partner with in businesses left and right. Yet I'm the guy who has 2 semesters of community college education and almost failed out of high school. Shouldn't it be the other way around?

I think one of the main reasons college is counter productive if you want to be FREE and able to have that "ummphh" to go out and conquer the world is this:

"Caesar wanted to conquer Britain. So he took his troops to Britain, burned the ships behind them and said to his men, “Now it is win or perish, we have no choice”. They won."

I refuse to give myself a tempting second choice. Because even if the second choice is great I will live a life of regret of coulda shoulda woulda.

- Even at Babson "the entrepreneurial college" as they call themselves. Only 15% of the student body ever start a business.

- As for the networking concern: I've had no problem developing networks with the best and brightest of the young in the boston which most are basically going to be very successful 10 - 15 years down the road. (Including A-Unit) We all are. Including in-roads into all the networks in the colleges.

Pay 20-30k a year, just because i dont want to develope enough chutzpah to go out there and network myself in the colleges and their entre clubs without attending them??? Highly not worth it if your willing to face your fear and have self confidence.

If anyone can prove me wrong please do. I wasn't indoctrinated with self righteousness and black and white right/wrong that college and testing will influence you with. Everything is in shades of grey and has pros and cons. So i love to proven wrong because that's the only way i can grow.

A reason to join college where I'll be able to have a multi-million dollar company more swiftly with a college degree. I've already found the market opportunities so no need there.

Anyways I'm done here.

 

[belividere]

I appluad all of you guys who have the motivation and ambition to go out and do what you want.

My oldest friend has been involved in real estate over the last five years on top of his full time job. The kid busts his ass but loves it and probably will retire well before me. He never went to college and didn't ever want to.

Then there is me on the other hand. I've probably been in school longer than most on this board, just finished year 8 and looking at 2-3 more. I've found a passion just as all of you have, though mine lies in an academic endeavor. Had I never gone to school I would have never known. Had I not gone to school I also would most likely been stuck in the robot/employee position anyway. How many people do that regardless of whether or not their educated?

 

[diplomatic_lies]

Originally posted by RepphIz
doctors pull off $100,000+ per year! 10 years a million is in your bank

You'd be surprised.

Taxes: About $30K will go to the government. If you live in Europe, that's probaly $40K to the government.

Expenses: Food, clothing, wife, etc. $20K at minimum for doctor-worthy lifestyle.

Status expenses: As a doctor, you have to drive a Mercedes or an Audi, otherwise all the other doctors will laugh at you and call you a retard. The higher your social status, the more expenses you have to build that high image. That's another $20K down the drain.

How much are you left with? $30K a year. That's not a lot.


Don't forget, you don't make that $100K until much later. Most graduate doctors (at the age of 25) only make less than $50K.

 

[RepphIz]

Originally posted by diplomatic_lies
You'd be surprised.

Taxes: About $30K will go to the government. If you live in Europe, that's probaly $40K to the government.
30k? 40k? what the hell, where did you get those numbers from!???

Expenses: Food, clothing, wife, etc. $20K at minimum for doctor-worthy lifestyle.
im curious, whats the minimalist expense a person of a businessman or investor can go at?

Status expenses: As a doctor, you have to drive a Mercedes or an Audi, otherwise all the other doctors will laugh at you and call you a retard. The higher your social status, the more expenses you have to build that high image. That's another $20K down the drain.
hahaha :crackup: :crackup: :crackup: id laugh and call ua retard too if u dont have a good car and ur a doctor

How much are you left with? $30K a year. That's not a lot.
well evne then, a b usinessman or investor couldnt do better!!

Don't forget, you don't make that $100K until much later. Most graduate doctors (at the age of 25) only make less than $50K.
wait so ur saying doctors dont make $100k right away!? so when do they start making $100k?

 

[Pook]

Originally posted by Interpol
Cute little story, what you neglect is the FACT that most businesses fail within the first 5 years, especially businesses started by people who just get out of high school!

Of course businesses fail. Just like Don Juaning, you don't get your first girl. The Don Juan does not go to 'school' to become a Don Juan. He goes out there and fails a lot in order to become good. It's no different with money.

All your arguments have based around your belief that college trains you to be an employee and a robot and teaches you nothing about running a business. But Sandy goes to beauty school and somehow learns how to run her own salon? You don't even mention the possibility that Charles could come out of law school and start his own law firm!

If you don't want to do anything more than just work for someone else, that's ok. But why not let people in on all the options they have?

Sandy will learn business much faster than Charles. Why? Because Charles is an egghead. He has been in school so long that he is scared of making mistakes (because that is what school teaches. Study and don't make mistakes).

The problem with the typical small business format, such as Charles and his law firm, is that he is always working in it. If he goes on vacation, so does his business. Sandy can go on vacation and still have cashflow but Charles cannot.

By painting things in such black and white terms and neglecting crucial facts you are contributing to the UNREALISTIC EXPECTATIONS that run rampant on this board.

What if you fail? Then you just 'get a job' like anyone else or try again. There is a lot of possibility out there and it does no good for being scared about it.

I don't know how old you are or how long ago you went to college, but nowadays any top-tier business school offers entrepreneurship programs. A few of my friends (undergradutate students) already own and run their own businesses on top of their schoolwork! My school even has a program that will help you develop a business plan and refer you to venture capitalists even if you are only a sophomore or junior! Can you explain to me how this is "training [them] to be employees"?

It's wonderful that a college would put out an entrepreneurship program. However, how do you 'pass' the program? How could they possibly 'test' it? It's a cute idea, but like a Don Juan University Class, completely irrelevant.

Another implied theme in your posts is that if you graduate from college and go work for someone else, you are doomed to be an employee for life...That is BS! I would strongly encourage people who hope to be entrepreneurs to spend time working for other people first so that they see how business works from ALL perspectives before thinking they now how to run one. How can you motivate and understand your employees when you don't even know what it's like to be one?

This is strawman. I never said that you do not learn by being an employee. What I am saying is that there is no job security these days, and that if you want to retire well, you must create your own financial structure.

If people think that a college degree, no matter how excellent, will give them riches, large or small, all by itself, they will be sorely surprised. Even the employee will be unlearning and relearning again and again throughout his careers.

What is the problem with offering an alternative to the rat race?

 

[Engetsu]

:nono: Sandy and Charles are isolated cases, thus, irrelevant.

Going to school opens up your mind and critical thinking abilities.

Starting a business without any higher education is an amazing way to fail.

I'm deceived... I would have expected much more common sense out of a heavily-worshipped poster such as Pook.

 

[Interpol]

If you don't want to do anything more than just work for someone else, that's ok. But why not let people in on all the options they have?

Stop putting words in my mouth! I never said anything like that.

Sandy will learn business much faster than Charles. Why? Because Charles is an egghead. He has been in school so long that he is scared of making mistakes (because that is what school teaches. Study and don't make mistakes).

Sorry, but I just plain disagree with this. You may believe this deep down with all your heart, but can you actually demonstrate this? How about you show me a study that proves empirically that those without any college education are more succesful in business ventures than college graduates? Oh, what's that? No such studies exist? All studies show people with college degrees are more succesful than those without? Oh, well ok then.

The problem with the typical small business format, such as Charles and his law firm, is that he is always working in it. If he goes on vacation, so does his business. Sandy can go on vacation and still have cashflow but Charles cannot.

Now you're just not making sense. How exactly is Charles' small business different than Sandy's? Why is she free to go on vacation but Charles is not? Please explain your line of thinking.

What if you fail? Then you just 'get a job' like anyone else or try again. There is a lot of possibility out there and it does no good for being scared about it.

I'm not scared about it, I'm simply trying to give people a more realistic view of their chances of success. I'm not discouraging people from taking risks, but you've been ignoring the risks completely!

It's wonderful that a college would put out an entrepreneurship program. However, how do you 'pass' the program? How could they possibly 'test' it? It's a cute idea, but like a Don Juan University Class, completely irrelevant.

Now you've fallen into the same logic than you're accusing me of! It's not important whether they pass or fail, its the EXPERIENCE THEY GAIN. How is real-world experience possibly irrelevant?

You also dodged my question: Does such a program train them to be robots? Could it be that NOT ALL colleges are employee factories??? Gasp! What a shocking thought for Pook!

If people think that a college degree, no matter how excellent, will give them riches, large or small, all by itself, they will be sorely surprised.

I've never claimed a college degree is a ticket to riches, in fact I said myself (either in this thread, or the "Most Useful Classes" one) that many people have very distorted views of what a college degree will do for them. But this is simply another case of managing UNREALISTIC EXPECTATIONS.

If someone goes to a mediocre college, gets mediocre grades, gets their degree, and is stuck with a 25k a year job when they expected 100, that is a product of their own unrealistic expectations. I am not speaking on behalf of these people.

What is the problem with offering an alternative to the rat race?

There is no problem. Don't misinterpret what I'm trying to say. I am not anti-entrepreneurship in any way, shape, or form. I am simply trying to balance out the extreme anti-college sentiment here, correct the many misconceptions of a college education that you've stated, and give people a REALISTIC, COMPLETE view of their options.

 

[belividere]

Rather than spending all your time chasing worthless girls, invest in yourself. Pvssy comes, pvssy goes, but YOU are forever.

Last I checked you aren't forever. ***** comes, ***** goes yes at the same time you also reach your expiration date. Your money isn't going with you. Rather than spend all your time chasing money and materialistic outputs focus on things that make a difference.

You made a couple of dollars working within the system? Great, how does that actually change anything? You are putting materialistic happiness as a priority, the SUV, the happy family, the care free life. .etc.

You are fooling yourself and no one else. You are all drones to the economic machine pretending to be independant. You're success depends on the market and interest rates.

 

[diplomatic_lies]

Originally posted by RepphIz
id laugh and call ua retard too if u dont have a good car and ur a doctor

That's exactly why doctors and lawyers don't end up being that rich. They HAVE to buy good cars, a good house, lots of expensive clothes, mod cons, etc.

wait so ur saying doctors dont make $100k right away!? so when do they start making $100k?

I thought like you when I was 16 years old.

Then I saw the national average graduate salaries. Doctors start making $40K on average. Lawyers, also $40K.

You'll be at least 30-35 before getting that coveted $100K. Then maybe after tax and expenses, you'll manage to save $10K.

You are all drones to the economic machine pretending to be independant. You're success depends on the market and interest rates.

Only if you spend your life working. Plenty of people made money during the Depression.

 

[quest]

Originally posted by belividere
Last I checked you aren't forever. ***** comes, ***** goes yes at the same time you also reach your expiration date. Your money isn't going with you. Rather than spend all your time chasing money and materialistic outputs focus on things that make a difference.

You made a couple of dollars working within the system? Great, how does that actually change anything? You are putting materialistic happiness as a priority, the SUV, the happy family, the care free life. .etc.

You are fooling yourself and no one else. You are all drones to the economic machine pretending to be independant. You're success depends on the market and interest rates.

maybe someone can help me out here..

but someone who was rich, then went broke said (something like)

"i spent 90% of money on alcohol and girls, and wasted the other 10%"

i really like that.

so many people think alcohol and girls is a waste of money.. but its SOOO much better then having the fastest computer with the best games.
(replace computer with car)
(replace fastest with biggest and car with house)
etc. etc.

gimmie beer and girls. i'm not a greedy man.

 

[Teh_SeXiness]

A teacher of mine told me (particularly my career teacher) that we only go to school to learn how to learn. It seems stupid, but it is true.

 

[Page]

Originally posted by Engetsu

Starting a business without any higher education is an amazing way to fail.

not true. the current education system is designed to produce employees, not business owners, etrepreneurs, and investors. That's why schools give students meaningless assignments and endless deadlines. it's to shape them into employees.

School taught me nothing about leadership, organization, and most importatly, creative innovation. I had to do that myself by learning from people in whose footsteps I wish to fillow. Granted,school did teach me ways to convey leadership-oriented ideas (such as writing and public speaking) but it left me to assemble the pieces on my own.

The ability to successfully start and manage a business is not something you can learn in school, and its not something just anyone can do w/o changing how they think. some people are naturally suited for it and enjoy taking risk to get ahead. These people are natural leaders and innovators, and the world belongs to them. Other people are standard products of the system and have been conditioned to look for safety and stability in the realm of finances, so when they sense risk, they run like hell. These people are natural-born employees and will spend their lives working for the natural-born leaders and innovators. These employee-types cannot ever be successful in owning business and investing unless they change the way they think.

 

[Page]

Originally posted by diplomatic_lies
Plenty of people made money during the Depression.

Hell yes. That's when the Kennedys made it big.

 

[Teh_SeXiness]

Originally posted by Page
not true. the current education system is designed to produce employees, not business owners, etrepreneurs, and investors. That's why schools give students meaningless assignments and endless deadlines. it's to shape them into employees.

School taught me nothing about leadership, organization, and most importatly, creative innovation. I had to do that myself by learning from people in whose footsteps I wish to fillow. Granted,school did teach me ways to convey leadership-oriented ideas (such as writing and public speaking) but it left me to assemble the pieces on my own.

The ability to successfully start and manage a business is not something you can learn in school, and its not something just anyone can do w/o changing how they think. some people are naturally suited for it and enjoy taking risk to get ahead. These people are natural leaders and innovators, and the world belongs to them. Other people are standard products of the system and have been conditioned to look for safety and stability in the realm of finances, so when they sense risk, they run like hell. These people are natural-born employees and will spend their lives working for the natural-born leaders and innovators. These employee-types cannot ever be successful in owning business and investing unless they change the way they think.

Amen.