pLaYtHiNg's Improvement/Discovery Journal

[KontrollerX]

"if they like you, they will stick around. Some guys here don't agree with with-holding, many saying that a woman who won't put out by the 3rd date is 'wasting' their time. (Of course, if your only mission is to achieve sex, then they are right)."

She IS wasting their time.

If a guy hasn't hit it by the third date regardless of whether his ultimate goal is to just have sex or to get into a long term relationship, the smart man, the man that knows his own worth and his own value, who knows that life is short will not let some woman blue ball him for an extended period of time using up his company and his valueable time to entertain herself with getting what she wants while he gets nothing that he wants.

Many women look at this from a one sided perspective of well all the guy wants is sex but again we can turn that right around and say well all a woman wants is a man on her arm at all times to provide some entertainment.

Well that "entertainment" or that "time" spent has a price and if one woman won't pay the bill another one will.

The intelligent DJ who knows his own worth values his time so its not a question of if that DJ likes you rather its a question of using Anti Dump's Machine which says "does she like you? and if the answer is yes she's going to show it by doing what is necessary to keep you and that involves fvcking you and she will fvck you sooner as opposed to later". Even in the pimp game the pimp's don't move on a woman unless she is giving him massive eye contact. That is just the rules of the game.

The AFC who thinks he's a DJ on the other hand will agree with what a chick like you just said Plaything in order to suck up to you such an AFC will say "I agree with Plaything because I'm not like other guys, and because I'm not like these smooth cool player DJ's that makes me a better man, a moral man, a good guy and I'll prove to you I really like you Plaything by letting you blue ball me for 6 months before I ever expect you to fvck me and if at the end of the 6 months you don't want to fvck me thats ok I'll be your friend or let you consider me your boyfriend, I mean its not like it matters what I want, gender roles are obsolete in this feminist world, you wear the pants girlfriend, tell me what to do and what we are, I'm all for it, I'm not like other guys, I'm not like those mean intelligent players who demand the best for themselves out of life and go after what they truly want as I think needless and painful self sacrifice makes me noble and honestly it just gives me a self righteous rush of adrenaline to live in this self defeating way as I jack myself off to sleep at night dreaming that one day you may let me touch you oh precious queen of mine, so um yeah you'll definitely respect me for this mindset as women like all human beings obviously respect only the most moral and self sacrificing of men".

^^^
The AFC mentality that I just laid out as an example is of course one of the most brutal and idiotic kind of thinking. As human beings and animals we all must strive towards our own survival before all other persuits but the retarded self defeating doctrine of altruism, that complete and total self sacrifice for a woman's greater good over their own is the type of thinking that plagues every AFC mind keeping their progress as men stalled.

The AFC needs to embrace Ayn Rand's version of selfishness over altruism which says help your fellow man or woman but never at the expense of your own life or needs. Which in other words means if you have water in the desert to spare go ahead and give a dying person that spare so they can live but if all you have is your own water keep it to yourself and stay alive. Don't be an altruistic fool.

Anyway getting back to sex and dating Rollo always says...

2. Iron Rule of Tomassi #3
Any woman who makes you wait for sex, or by her actions implies she is making you wait for sex; the sex is NEVER worth the wait.

This also applies to women's "sexual filibustering".

When a woman makes you wait for sex you are not her highest priority. Sexuality is spontaneous, chemical reaction between two parties, not a process of negotiation. It's sex first, then relationship, not the other way around. A woman who wants to ƒuck you will fly across the country, crawl under barbwire, climb in through your second story bedroom window, ƒuck you like a porn star and wait patiently inside your closet if your wife/GF comes home early from work - women who want to ƒuck will find a way to ƒuck. The girl who tells you she wants a relationship first or "just isn't comfortable with you yet" is the same girl who ƒucked the "totally hot guy" in the foam cannon party in Cancun with her girlfriends on spring break half an hour after meeting him.

If a girl is that into you she'll ƒuck regardless of ASD or having her friends in the room videotaping it at a frat party. All women can be sexual, you just have to be the right guy to bring it out in them, and this happens before you go back to her place. If you have to plead your case cuddling and spooning on the bed or getting the occasional peck on the cheek, you need to go back to square one and start fresh. You cannot negotiate genuine desire.

This is exactly why you spin plates.

And don't get me wrong Plaything I can understand a girl using a little bit of ASD ie anti slvt defense if she really wants a guy to respect her enough to be in a relationship with her but yeah I think no more than three dates is an acceptable period of time for a woman to hold out.

A DJ isn't necessarily callously using the three date rule to hop from bed to bed as quickly as possible rather the rule can both help for guy's that just want to do that and guys that genuinely want to start up a relationship and find a girl that is genuinely interested in them.

Now a girl that holds out longer than three dates may indeed be genuinely interested in a guy but no DJ is going to listen to anymore lip service about how she really likes him and wants to see him again after he dissapears because she hasn't given it up after that magical third number.

He's going to want to see some words verified with actions and again its a perfectly fair number for a guy to hold to especially in this age of the hook up culture.

 

[pLaYtHiNg]

If a guy hasn't hit it by the third date regardless of whether his ultimate goal is to just have sex or to get into a long term relationship, the smart man, the man that knows his own worth and his own value, who knows that life is short will not let some woman blue ball him for an extended period of time using up his company and his valueable time to entertain herself with getting what she wants while he gets nothing that he wants.

I understand your point of view, KX, the problem is this strongly contradicts the way I was raised. It's difficult to change mindsets about these sort of ingrained thoughts. I'm not even sure how I would go about it, (and yes, the funny thing to say here would be to tell me to start putting it into action and actually doing it). However I am talking about mental preparation, and separating sex from everything else so that it can be guilt free, and never a regret. Life is too short for regrets.

What I want to know is, beyond the 3 date rule, is there no middle ground between giving it up too early and waiting too long? I've never waited 6 months, but I've never given it up after just three dates. I would say the mean time I've waited to be around 2 or 3 months.

...if the answer is yes she's going to show it by doing what is necessary to keep you and that involves fvcking you and she will fvck you sooner as opposed to later".

To keep a man, yes, sex is definitely in order. (And just so you know, I mean, I don't want anyone to think I'm a frigid prude; I have been an extremely sexual person when I felt safe/accepted/loved in the past. In my experience that always was within the context of an exclusive arrangement).

I'm just not as able to open my mind to having sex with someone I'm not exclusive with. I am trying to remain very open-minded regarding this, but I don't feel that sex that early on + being non-exclusive will result in something that's not equally fun for me, you know what I mean? As much as I'd hate to admit it, if nothing ultimately came of it, (let's say, an exclusive dating arrangement), I would feel used and or maybe taken advantage of. Heck, I might even feel that way, even if something came from it. (Not that it's ever happened, but I can imagine it is a possibility). I know no one really wants to hear that, but it's the truth, and a real downer at that.

I also don't want you to think I am trying to argue the three date rule, just understand why it is, and discover how I may get over ASD, and why I should.

A DJ isn't necessarily callously using the three date rule to hop from bed to bed as quickly as possible rather the rule can both help for guy's that just want to do that and guys that genuinely want to start up a relationship and find a girl that is genuinely interested in them.

Thank you for posting this. It really helps me to think outside the box. Until you posted this I had kind of wondered if the 3 date rule wasn't just a way to bed as many girls as possible. Now I understand it can also help a man gauge a woman's level of interest.

 

[Captain]

the problem is this strongly contradicts the way I was raised. It's difficult to change mindsets about these sort of ingrained thoughts.

This is what a lot of the men who come here have to go through. They've spent their entire lives thinking one way, and all of the sudden they have people telling them everything they've been told is wrong.

What I want to know is, beyond the 3 date rule, is there no middle ground between giving it up too early and waiting too long? I've never waited 6 months, but I've never given it up after just three dates. I would say the mean time I've waited to be around 2 or 3 months.

Not really, it depends on the point of view of the people who are involved. Having sex after a year of dating is a big thing for a 15 year old, not so much for Gene Simmons.

To keep a man, yes, sex is definitely in order.

It depends what kind of man you want. You'll be able to keep an AFC nice guy around for a long time without sex (or without much sex.) The kind of man you'd actually want to have sex with are the ones that will probably leave if you withhold it.

I'm just not as able to open my mind to having sex with someone I'm not exclusive with.

A lot of women think like that, but if the alternative is to lose the man that they are crazy for, they'll go along with it.

 

[edger]

I'm just not as able to open my mind to having sex with someone I'm not exclusive with.

As much as I'd hate to admit it, if nothing ultimately came of it, (let's say, an exclusive dating arrangement), I would feel used and or maybe taken advantage of.

Learn from the woman, newbies. The excuses a woman will hide under, in order to aquit herself of ego stroking and wasting a guys time.

 

[pLaYtHiNg]

It depends what kind of man you want. You'll be able to keep an AFC nice guy around for a long time without sex (or without much sex.) The kind of man you'd actually want to have sex with are the ones that will probably leave if you withhold it.

I like this. It is true, however, I don't plan on not being sexual within a relationship.. I mean, I do like it too! By saying the kind of man I'd "want" to have sex with is probably the type of guy to leave if I withhold it... are you referring to...? Experience? If you wouldn't mind elaborating for me, I'd really appreciate it.

A lot of women think like that, but if the alternative is to lose the man that they are crazy for, they'll go along with it.

This is the bottom line. I can think of a time, in my not so distant past, where I may have missed an opportunity for a relationship with someone I really, really liked because I was still under the thought processes of withholding, and even a little fear. If I'd known then what I know now things probably would have turned out differently.

Learn from the woman, newbies. The excuses a woman will hide under, in order to aquit herself of ego stroking and wasting a guys time.

Thanks. I am honestly here to educate myself and broaden my horizons, so to speak, and all you can post is a shameless criticism of my reflections and very real feelings.

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

I think one of the biggest mistakes guys against a 3 Strikes rule make is assuming that it means a guy would be so preoccupied with sex that you couldn't wait for 4-6 dates. They assume that a 3 Strikes rule (or any rule dependent upon sexual reciprocation) makes them Players at best, superficial and sex-concerned at worst. Nothing could be further from the truth.

The mistake is to presume that a 3 date policy is some form of punishment for the girl for not having 'put out' soon enough to verify interest. It's not punishment, it's a fail-safe that serves to protect a guy from some protracted personal investment for a very limited return. For example, I play golf and when I want to improve my game I hire a golf pro. I pay him $120 for 3 lessons, so $40 per lesson. At the end of my 3rd lesson I assess whether or not my game's improved and I can decide to continue with him or, if I see no improvement I can choose to find another pro and do the same. I'm not punishing the pro for doing this, I'm simply looking for the best value in an area I wish to improve in.

The misunderstanding is to see a 3 Strikes rule as a threat. "She'd better put out after tonight or I'm outta here". I can see why that would place a burden upon a woman, but you must take into account why a 3 Strike rule would even be a necessary concept. 3 dates (and I mean real dates, none of this coffee / lunch crap) over the course of 3 weeks should be ample time to make the assessment as to whether a woman has interest and attraction enough to become intimate. Anything beyond this is indicative of filibustering on a woman's part and usually points to an only lukewarm IL if at all. In this way a 3 Strike rule benefits both men and women; why would either sex want to engage in a relationship that was lackluster from the start? Why would either want to be involved with a person who was settled on or settled for?

It's urgency and anxiety that makes for genuine, chemical-fueled sexual desire - not comfort, not familiarity. This is precisely why I say Any woman who makes you wait for sex, or by her actions implies she is making you wait for sex; the sex is NEVER worth the wait. It's not that you can't have sex with her, it's that the sex is compromised, second choice sex. It becomes mundane before anyone's clothes come off.

 

[KontrollerX]

"I like this. It is true, however, I don't plan on not being sexual within a relationship.. I mean, I do like it too! By saying the kind of man I'd "want" to have sex with is probably the type of guy to leave if I withhold it... are you referring to...? Experience? If you wouldn't mind elaborating for me, I'd really appreciate it."

He's referring to the DJ ie the man of confidence who is cool, ****y and funny and highly enjoyable to be around. The DJ is the man that challenges you and brings out the best in you, and a man you cannot get enough of when it comes to either simply chatting and spending time with him or getting it on with him. He's the man that is quite simply electrifying.

The AFC's on the other hand are guys that no woman wants to be sleeping with or associating with as anything other than a friend, these guys are pvssies and not confident at all, they can't make you feel all that good as they can barely make themselves feel good enough to get out of bed in the morning. A kind woman may give an AFC a chance to date her for a while but she's soon going to realize he's not her type and so as to avoid hurting his feelings she'll lead him on and gradually transition their relationship to friendship and then complain to her girlfriends asking where all the real men went.

The AFC will put up with getting no sex from you for months or years at a time so long as you string him along and give him hope that there will be a chance for him with you at some undefined point in the future.

The DJ of course as we all know will bail on you if he deems you are disinterested in him via not letting him hit it on the third date.

The DJ has all the qualities of a man that you and most women want so this is what the poster means when he says the guys you want to sleep with and be with etc will not put up with being frozen out of sex for long.

They take their time very seriously and the natural DJ's may even view your withholding sex as a mean spirited passive show of disrespect. They will then be insulted and move on to looking for other chicks at which point women that really liked those guys will then go and complain about men to their girlfriends when really it was that woman's lack of knowledge on how to proceed that screwed her up with that guy.

"This is the bottom line. I can think of a time, in my not so distant past, where I may have missed an opportunity for a relationship with someone I really, really liked because I was still under the thought processes of withholding, and even a little fear. If I'd known then what I know now things probably would have turned out differently."

In your case Plaything I'd advise you to work on getting the mindset of making a guy you really like wait no longer than 1 month to hit it. And that really follows with the three date rule especially if say you date a guy that is spinning plates and only date him once a week. Thats 21 days you've known eachother and just about a month so you can see you both aren't exactly strangers by that time and the guy will come to respect you for the short amount of resistance time you put up.

"Thanks. I am honestly here to educate myself and broaden my horizons, so to speak, and all you can post is a shameless criticism of my reflections and very real feelings."

I doubt edger posted this to insult you.

He was moreso pointing out to the lurkers and struggling AFC's who just found the site of how your mind as a woman works.

You are here to genuinely unplug and improve, this is true but in this journey we get to see your thought processes before you are fully awakened and it is an excellent learning tool of re-inforcement for all of us guys and would be DJ's of how the game is to be played because of how the default ie unawakened female mindset is.

 

[prairiedog24]

LOL...

Kontroller you can think what you want about sex... but I can definitely call you out for bull**** on so many levels.

You guys are correct in pushing for more "masculine" men. I've been pissed off for awhile about how easy it is for me and others to be raised in a much more feminized enviornment. That's the reason I love this forum and realizing some of the ways I'm too emotionally soft. But you're flat out wrong on one area: sex.

If you're not hitting in by the 3rd day it's not worth it? WTF man. How many of the REAL men that this country used to have decades ago would have said that. My grandfather is perhaps the most man's man I've ever met, and I also happen to know that he's only been with ONE female. He also just celebrated his 60th wedding anniversary.

So modern culture doesn't want to wait for anything... delay of gratification is out of style. I get it. You don't see me barking at people for being loose. But when you try to spin the reserve, and claim that if you're not nailing a woman to the mattress by the 3rd date, you must be an AFC... dude, that just proves that your DJness is more about being a jock than any kind of actual relationship expert.

I don't say *** to try and defend plaything. I don't give a damn about her. I said what I said because it's the truth. You can try and spin that as weakness as much as you want, but that weakness has kept divorce out of both sides of my family for as far back as we can trace.

When all my grandparents, uncles, aunts, cousins, etc all have happy marriages while the rest of the world is falling apart (less than 50% success rate) I'd say that they're on to a little bit of old world wisdom about what being real men and real women should look like.

So you want to sleep around every day... great. Go for it. I'm not trying to stop you. But if you want to bash those who don't as feminine, AFC, or or whatever, get a grip. Such talk doesn't jive with current research and it doesn't jive with past history (i.e., the real American "men" that you guys often try to emulate).

 

[KontrollerX]

prairiedog24 I wasn't even replying to you or mocking you with that post brah.

I'm speaking strictly to Plaything about AFC mentality as I see it.

If you don't agree with my take on what constitutes an AFC mindset towards sex and dating thats all fine and dandy as far as I'm concerned but its going to remain my view.

I will however try to address some of your concerns now so maybe you can see where I'm actually coming from as opposed to where you think I'm coming from.

"and claim that if you're not nailing a woman to the mattress by the 3rd date, you must be an AFC... dude, that just proves that your DJness is more about being a jock than any kind of actual relationship expert."

For me its not about promoting a jock mentality rather what I promote here is guys getting the best deal for themselves and not wasting their time. What I'm saying and what my actual opinion is it is AFC to hover around a woman for months or years with the promise of sex at some future date hanging around your head as bait.

With a woman thats really interested in you sex becomes a non issue as she will be all over you sooner rather than later.

Infact read Rollo's last post in here as he describes what I'm getting at better than I have.

The three date rule once again is not about being a jock or a stud it is a fail safe to both help a guy find out who are the women that are really attracted to him and to weed out the women who are simply using that guy for company and entertainment and have no intention of giving it up at any point.

My view is that AFC's have a loser mentality, a weak mentality where they will let women lead them around and dictate when they get to have sex, what activities will constitute a date and many other things so the ideas and values I promote are really about giving a man back his power and sense of worth, its once again not about being a jock, its about being a man and taking charge of one's life so that you as a man lead a woman instead of the other way around.

Men want sex, women want relationships and its sex first or no relationship can even exist anyway. Until the deal is sealed all a woman and a guy are is very good friends or masturbation buddies and thats just not manly. No DJ is going to be content with some woman giving him a handj0b yet not allowing him to close the deal or be satisfied with heavy makeout sessions for long giving him a wicked case of blue balls.

AFC's on the other hand are fine with that and its this AFC "I'll take what I'm given and like it" mentality that I want to stamp out in guys that come here as the sooner they stamp it out the sooner they will acheive a great deal of success.

AFC's become DJ's when they become focused on getting what they want rather than what other people say they should have.

"but that weakness has kept divorce out of both sides of my family for as far back as we can trace."

Lasting marriages in families don't always mean the couples are happy.

A couple that stays together could simply be doing so for economic reasons, for the kids, because they are afraid they are at an age that they can't find anybody else, or because their immediate peer group would be ashamed of them.

Lots of reasons for a marriage staying together outside of actually being happy and in love.

And also your families long history of apparent marital bliss as you yourself have said is indeed from another time.

A time when the society at large ostracized people for getting a divorce and held cheaters and adulterers accountable via social punishment for their foul deeds.

Well the world has changed and today the righteous are not rewarded.

The scum are and to succeed in a world where villainy is promoted as being the in thing you simply recognize you are in Rome and do as the Romans do and live it up.

So you go ahead and try and get a lasting and happy marriage going in today's world and when you are at 10 years in let me see the results of the lie detector test I want you to take for the questioner asking you this question: "Your marriage has reached its 10th year but are you genuinely happy and fulfilled within it?"

If your test results indicate that you are and you even make it to 10 years of marriage in today's society using the oldschool methods your family has been using for generations I'll be the first to congratulate you.

 

[STR8UP]

This is the same basic idea I use. It's really just common sense... if they like you, they will stick around. Some guys here don't agree with with-holding, many saying that a woman who won't put out by the 3rd date is 'wasting' their time. (Of course, if your only mission is to achieve sex, then they are right).

This is all men and women REALLY need to know about each other.

Primary Goals

Man= sex

Woman= attention

When a woman withholds sex, and man who values his own time will duck out if he feels as if the woman is using him for attention, regardless of how much he likes her.

That doesn't mean that I personally will automatically call it quits after a third date- that's just a rule of thumb. There are lots of mitigating circumstances that might make me cut out earlier or hold on longer.

I went out with a chick a couple of times awhile back. Perfect rapport, her body language told me that she was into me, the whole nine. The second time I went out with her, she gave me a ride back to my car. I went in for the kiss and got the cheek. I didn't call her back, and she made no effort to keep in contact with me. I think I made a good call.

When you hold out on sex for two months you are shortchanging the guy. You get attention, he gets blue balls. I don't blame YOU, because he should know better and move on, but I still believe that you aren't living up to your part of the bargain, thus you are not likely to find too many men of value that will accept this type of arrangement. Guys who value themselves and their time will not continue to jump through your hoops without you jumping through some of his.

You are stuck in the whole "this is what I was taught" mode. It's no different than the AFC that is taught that the way to a woman's heart is through fancy dinners and flowers.

Bottom line is that dating today is a bloody war. The upside down nature of it all has created a very unfriendly environment for building relationships. Our "serial dating" culture has set up a system where we have to turn and burn to find an ideal mate, if that is what we are looking for.

My take on this is that you are not only shortchanging the dude, but you are shortchanging yourself by playing this waiting game. I respect the fact that you are trying to avoid being "used", but honestly, it's more paranoia and fear (instilled when you were younger) than anything. You are probably going to miss the better quality men if you continue the same way you always have, IMO.

 

[pLaYtHiNg]

It's not punishment, it's a fail-safe that serves to protect a guy from some protracted personal investment for a very limited return.

I have a better understanding of this now.

Anything beyond this is indicative of filibustering on a woman's part and usually points to an only lukewarm IL if at all.

I guess I have been guilty of this recently, but it definitely wasn't due to "lukewarm interest levels" at all... I just thought it was the 'right' way to be, as a woman. The notion I had prior to visiting these forums is that I would be considered a slvt or wh0re to have sex with someone that early on. That's not labeling I'd be proud of.

It's not that you can't have sex with her, it's that the sex is compromised, second choice sex.

Would you mind explaining how the sex became compromised or second choice sex? Just having a little difficulty wrapping my mind around this one.

They take their time very seriously and the natural DJ's may even view your withholding sex as a mean spirited passive show of disrespect. They will then be insulted and move on to looking for other chicks at which point women that really liked those guys will then go and complain about men to their girlfriends when really it was that woman's lack of knowledge on how to proceed that screwed her up with that guy.

WOW, who would have thought withholding sex was an insult? Definitely not me! I agree, it is probably the woman's lack of knowledge versus lack of attraction that would lead to things dissolving quickly. I can say for sure, that it was a lack of knowledge on my part, in my situation.

...so you can see you both aren't exactly strangers by that time and the guy will come to respect you for the short amount of resistance time you put up.

I am acclimating myself to this mindset, but seeing that i don't date very much, (okay most guys I attract are just plain weird) it will probably be some time before I meet someone I really like again. I like that a man will appreciate the lack of resistance, but am also worried about being branded as 'easy' or whatnot. I guess there is no way around that?

You are here to genuinely unplug and improve, this is true but in this journey we get to see your thought processes before you are fully awakened and it is an excellent learning tool of re-inforcement for all of us guys and would be DJ's of how the game is to be played because of how the default ie unawakened female mindset is.

I have no problem with this at all, I am all for helping others learn. If honestly expressing my previous thought processes and feelings enables or empowers another, all the better. The problem I had with Edger's post was the presence of the word, "Excuses", to me that implies deliberativeness to the feelings and ideas that came naturally to me.

You are stuck in the whole "this is what I was taught" mode. It's no different than the AFC that is taught that the way to a woman's heart is through fancy dinners and flowers.

I am really understanding this, and working my way around and out of this mindset.

My take on this is that you are not only shortchanging the dude, but you are shortchanging yourself by playing this waiting game. I respect the fact that you are trying to avoid being "used", but honestly, it's more paranoia and fear (instilled when you were younger) than anything. You are probably going to miss the better quality men if you continue the same way you always have, IMO.

I wish I'd known this before. It kind of leaves me with a sick feeling to know he probably thinks I didn't like him enough to sleep with him, when in fact, I fought hard to remain a lady about it and not give it up!

 

[Captain]

I like this. It is true, however, I don't plan on not being sexual within a relationship.. I mean, I do like it too! By saying the kind of man I'd "want" to have sex with is probably the type of guy to leave if I withhold it... are you referring to...? Experience? If you wouldn't mind elaborating for me, I'd really appreciate it.

Men who are most attractive to women also happen to have options. If you're withholding sex from them, they'll just go and have sex with another woman.

 

[I'm in the Mood]

Okay first, you pretty much based this whole thread titled "improvement/discovery journal" on a single test. This action tells me that you're incredibly insecure and can't accept yourself for who you are.

You posted a picture of yourself, half-naked, on a site called "Hot or Not" and apparently are trying to look like a "play thing," because you want power, you want to have control over men through love. This is what I see. In your picture I see desperation and even a touch of hurt, possibly because of something haunting from your past. I really don't know for sure though, so you'll have to fill me in on exactly WHY you're seeking change before I feel comfortable helping you.

The effort you've put into this thread shows touches of low self-confidence, and your personal morals and beliefs are being twisted around by posters here. I highly suggest you don't listen to everything everyone says on this website. There is some truth, though some lies and hype, and you're going to end up confused about what moves to make.

From this thread, it sounds like you just want to be wanted. That could be why you came here, I don't know, but this site primarily teaches pick-up and seduction, and honestly you don't need to learn much because you already have what's attractive to men - a "healthy" body to lure them in. There's not much else you can to do attract or seduce that you don't already understand. The one position that I respect about you is you don't seem like one of those sex-obsessed women. If sex was your goal, the only mediation you'd need is stepping onto a street corner and making advances. However, maybe I'm wrong and maybe you posted here so you could be different or something, and I disapprove of that completely.

Truthfully, you probably can't become an "alpha woman." In fact there are extremely few men who can really call themselves "alpha males." They're just labels, and these labels come purely from perspective.

I'm thinking your problem is with your state of mind. I'm almost absolutely sure that this is your problem.

You're thinking too much, you're a woman, not a man. The curriculum on this site is exclusively for men to attract women. If you want a girlfriend, this would be helpful, but I doubt it.

This problem you call "improvement/discovery" is something you should be discussing with close friends and people you look up to, rather than a bunch of weird-ass guys sitting at their computers, creeping around a seduction forum.

This is all in my honest opinion.

 

[AAAgent]

I'm not saying with-hold sex from them but neither am i heading towards simply giving it up like the other guys are saying. Being a female your basically in control of how the relationship progresses sexually in a sense because the male needs your consent before anything happens.

As long as your sexually progressing at a steady pace there's nothing wrong with giving in, but if the guy tries to fvck you on the 3rd date and he hasn't even been to second base yet my opinion for a female is that's moving too fast. Make sure they run the bases before taking it in for a score.

The keyword is steady pace here. If the guy is moving at half a base for the first two dates then tries to steal home on the third, then obviously he has no self control and no consideration for you since he just made first the last date. If he's progressing 1-2 bases at a time and by the 3rd date he's already ran the bases and ready to bring it home i don't see anything wrong with that. The way you will feel with every person is different and that is why it really depends on how your relationship is going with the guy. If the connection is strong enough that by the second date you've been to third a few times, i would expect the 3rd or 4th date to be at the next level.

As for the emotions part. by controlling your emotions i mean protect yourself like all the guys here are told to protect themselves. Even if you decide to be exclusive with him while you begin to date him don't devote 100% to him. Just like a woman should be an addition to a mans life a man should be an addition to your life. women were given rights for a reason and that reason was so that they could stand on their own two feet instead on relying on their men.

Obviously the more you put into the relationship the more reward/return you'll get back just like anything else but you also have more to lose. If you put in 100%, you can get 100% back but then if the relationship goes sour, you will also lose 100%. Like i stated before, you as a female really have no control how the relationship will go, you can try to steer it in the right direction but in the end, whether its good or bad is determined by the male.

 

[pLaYtHiNg]

Okay first, you pretty much based this whole thread titled "improvement/discovery journal" on a single test.

Actually, I believe I said the test would be for fun and starters. This thread itself is not about the test, but the test is apart of the thread.

I have much more to discuss, and not necessarily about the test. I am in discovery "mode" and later will summarize my areas of improvement, but first I need to establish what areas I need improving in.

...so you'll have to fill me in on exactly WHY you're seeking change before I feel comfortable helping you.

I was spurred onto change by what meeting what I perceived to be a 'difficult' man, when in fact, I did not have the knowledge to keep his interests. Other than that, I have had many long-term relationships, none of which were too dysfunctional. (My last ex got into drugs right before I left him, and was the reason I terminated our relationship).

This problem you call "improvement/discovery" is something you should be discussing with close friends and people you look up to, rather than a bunch of weird-ass guys sitting at their computers, creeping around a seduction forum.

I explained why I am here in this thread for you to read. By your post I'm really not sure you've read much of what I've written. To keep things moving along, I'd prefer not to have to re-explain everything.

As for the emotions part. by controlling your emotions i mean protect yourself like all the guys here are told to protect themselves. Even if you decide to be exclusive with him while you begin to date him don't devote 100% to him. Just like a woman should be an addition to a mans life a man should be an addition to your life. women were given rights for a reason and that reason was so that they could stand on their own two feet instead on relying on their men.

I'd like to say I am better at protecting myself through actions, (I.E. ASD) and not so much with my emotions. This is a good reminder, though, to always be on the look out for my best interest. I don't want to lose or forget myself and who I am by simply entering a relationship with someone. This is something I have had some minor difficulty with in the past, because I had been dating men who were insecure with me having my own life. (Some mildly jealous types, men I know would be defined as AFC here).

...you can try to steer it in the right direction but in the end, whether its good or bad is determined by the male...

I really believe this is true. Even on your best behaviour, you cannot expect more than another is willing to give.

I am ready to move on to the Sixteen Commandments... Will be posting my thoughts on this later on, as well as summing up what I've taken thus far, (advice wise), as steps toward my personal improvement. :rock:

 

[I'm in the Mood]

Actually, I believe I said the test would be for fun and starters. This thread itself is not about the test, but the test is apart of the thread.

The test that you took has nothing to do with you at all. The act of testing yourself isn't "for fun and starters," it's more of an overanalysis of yourself in, I think, a completely screwed up way. I disagree with all questions on that test and you should not need to take a test and post the results. It's not for "fun," it's for self-validation, because you're lacking self confidence.

I have much more to discuss, and not necessarily about the test. I am in discovery "mode" and later will summarize my areas of improvement, but first I need to establish what areas I need improving in.

You need more self confidence, and you should be evaluating yourself through experiences. You actually learn from revelations and putting yourself on the line; risking losing a man actually teaches you a lot. Sosuave is best at situational advice, but I haven't read any specific situations that you're focusing on - you're focusing on yourself in general which is an extremely complicated topic.

I was spurred onto change by what meeting what I perceived to be a 'difficult' man, when in fact, I did not have the knowledge to keep his interests. Other than that, I have had many long-term relationships, none of which were too dysfunctional. (My last ex got into drugs right before I left him, and was the reason I terminated our relationship).

What the hell does "I did not have the knowledge to keep his interests" mean? Dude, some relationships just fold eventually, it doesn't mean anything is wrong with you. You must both follow and lead a man to maintain a healthy interest level. Moreso, this "difficult man" is only one man. If one man doesn't like you, it doesn't mean you need to totally improve yourself. You're emphasizing on the "frustration" in AFC. A confident man or woman would have just moved on and left it at that. I see nothing wrong with you except witholding confidence and some frustration.

I explained why I am here in this thread for you to read. By your post I'm really not sure you've read much of what I've written. To keep things moving along, I'd prefer not to have to re-explain everything.

I read all of your posts on all three pages, and honestly it just goes on and on and on and on....Men aren't everything. Women aren't everything. You need to improve yourself through success in LIFE not through success in relationships.

I think you're making a bad move coming to this site. SS is so fvcking annoying when you come here with personal problems. I learned through the people I met, and I HIGHLY suggest you meet a girl or a guy who can help you out. Talking to creepy strangers online on a seduction website is the LAST thing I'd do if I was in your position. Make a friend somewhere and you'll gain more support and learn more than you thought you would.

Most of the guys here are going to fill your head with bullshyt. Don't do dat!

 

[STR8UP]

See sentences in bold.

The test that you took has nothing to do with you at all. The act of testing yourself isn't "for fun and starters," it's more of an overanalysis of yourself in, I think, a completely screwed up way. I disagree with all questions on that test and you should not need to take a test and post the results. It's not for "fun," it's for self-validation, because you're lacking self confidence.

See, plaything, you REALLY have to be careful what advice you take, especially if it's coming from high school kids (no offense, but people under 25 should be LISTENING instead of talking).

This poster would like you to believe that you are "over analyzing" yourself. People who seek answers NEED to analyze. It's the equivalent of telling the chump who gets no women to "be yourself" and you will eventually find someone who appreciates you for the loser you are! Not calling anyone a loser, but you get the point.

You need more self confidence, and you should be evaluating yourself through experiences. You actually learn from revelations and putting yourself on the line; risking losing a man actually teaches you a lot. Sosuave is best at situational advice, but I haven't read any specific situations that you're focusing on - you're focusing on yourself in general which is an extremely complicated topic.

1) Women generally don't need confidence. 99% of them have more than enough for landing a man.

2) Women don't learn well from "experiences" and "trial and error". Call it a flaw (I don't really see it that way), but women are not as conscious when it comes to assimilating and filtering information as men are. They aren't as god at self improvement. The other side to this coin is that women generally are better at relationships in general than men are. It's just that today radical feminism has screwed everything up so badly that even WOMEN can use some help.

What the hell does "I did not have the knowledge to keep his interests" mean? Dude, some relationships just fold eventually, it doesn't mean anything is wrong with you. You must both follow and lead a man to maintain a healthy interest level. Moreso, this "difficult man" is only one man. If one man doesn't like you, it doesn't mean you need to totally improve yourself. You're emphasizing on the "frustration" in AFC. A confident man or woman would have just moved on and left it at that. I see nothing wrong with you except witholding confidence and some frustration.

Ahhh....the automatic "next".

If you keep striking out it MUST be the pitcher's fault for not throwing you a good pitch, right?

This is how women think. Especially the ones who think they are always right, and the ones who don't care to improve themselves.

I read all of your posts on all three pages, and honestly it just goes on and on and on and on....Men aren't everything. Women aren't everything. You need to improve yourself through success in LIFE not through success in relationships.

Perfect advice for a man- horrible advice for a woman.

I think you're making a bad move coming to this site. SS is so fvcking annoying when you come here with personal problems. I learned through the people I met, and I HIGHLY suggest you meet a girl or a guy who can help you out. Talking to creepy strangers online on a seduction website is the LAST thing I'd do if I was in your position. Make a friend somewhere and you'll gain more support and learn more than you thought you would.

Yea, cause the general public is usually pretty smart about things like this....

People come to this site because it is a concentrated base of knowledge you can't get from most people on the street. Pretty elementary if you ask me.

Most of the guys here are going to fill your head with bullshyt. Don't do dat!

Yea, especially the ones who have no relationship experience themselves.

I have been reminded as to why I haven't posted on the main board for years.

 

[I'm in the Mood]

See, plaything, you REALLY have to be careful what advice you take, especially if it's coming from high school kids (no offense, but people under 25 should be LISTENING instead of talking).

This poster would like you to believe that you are "over analyzing" yourself. People who seek answers NEED to analyze. It's the equivalent of telling the chump who gets no women to "be yourself" and you will eventually find someone who appreciates you for the loser you are! Not calling anyone a loser, but you get the point.

Man, being yourself is the power to think independently on your own terms in any situation without witholding your personality.

As for me, yeah I'm a high school kid. I'm only giving advice from what I've learned through life. I really look down on women who are disatisfied with their sexuality, I think she has her purpose here confused.

Btw that bullshyt test is a muthafvckin over-analysis, none of that sh!t means sh!t. She can analyze herself all she wants, but the test in the OP is totally irrelevant to making any kind of progress. Why not take the "do you svck or not?" test as well, you'll get the same benefits.

1) Women generally don't need confidence. 99% of them have more than enough for landing a man.

2) Women don't learn well from "experiences" and "trial and error". Call it a flaw (I don't really see it that way), but women are not as conscious when it comes to assimilating and filtering information as men are. They aren't as god at self improvement. The other side to this coin is that women generally are better at relationships in general than men are. It's just that today radical feminism has screwed everything up so badly that even WOMEN can use some help.

By self confidence I mean confidents in opinions, actions, morals, etc...all around confidence basically, so much that losing occasionally shouldn't affect her at all.

I disagree that women are bad at 'assimilating and filtering' information and that woman aren't as good at self improvement. Neither of these are gender-based, they're social barricades that have trapped women. Women can be just as good as men, but they need to let go of foreign opinions and learn to think independently, in other words, learn to truly be themselves and shape their own identities without being limited by sexism.

Ahhh....the automatic "next".

If you keep striking out it MUST be the pitcher's fault for not throwing you a good pitch, right?

This is how women think. Especially the ones who think they are always right, and the ones who don't care to improve themselves.

Yeah dude, women with this mindset usually have things all jumbled up incorrectly in their head. Analysis might futher harm women if they have this mentality. I suggest total self acceptance and modesty.

Perfect advice for a man- horrible advice for a woman.

So you think women shouldn't try to succeed in life? Sorry buddy, as much as you and I know that women love mating and sex, success in life can leave an even greater impact on them because it shapes pretty much everything around them and about them. It's their life!

Yea, cause the general public is usually pretty smart about things like this....

People come to this site because it is a concentrated base of knowledge you can't get from most people on the street. Pretty elementary if you ask me..

I made some friends on this site that completely changed my life...posting here didn't do sh!t at all. I mean I learned stuff but it didn't do sh!t for me, it was just vaguely understood ideas and disagreeing opinions.

Yea, especially the ones who have no relationship experience themselves.

I have been reminded as to why I haven't posted on the main board for years.

Asking strangers for advice on our lives and relationships...we've lowered ourselves near the bottom.

 

[pLaYtHiNg]

Asking strangers for advice on our lives and relationships...we've lowered ourselves near the bottom.

Why is that? Everyone has lives and relationships. Most of us can speak from experience.

"So Far Summary";

I have learned that embracing and behaving in a more feminine manner increases my 'value' to men. I've already stopped swearing. :cheer: I'm also making an effort to dress up just a little more when I go out now. It's kind of fun. The downside is, I get even more unwanted attention and I remember why I didn't like dressing up before. Having a man older then my dad flirting/following me through a parking lot was scary!

I am still working on accepting 'early' sex, or sex before a relationship. I do not know how I will feel about it for sure until it happens. I am keeping an open mind, and looking forward to the opportunity.

The guy whom I initially posted about when I came here e-mailed me yesterday, saying his phone was broken and that he lost my number. I did not e-mail him back. It was tempting, mind you, but hopefully he'll just forget about me. I was only interested in having a relationship, but now that he's dating someone else, I see no point in talking to him.

I thought about why my 'friendship' with him bothered me so much and concluded... A.) it wasn't defined, and B.) I've never been 'rejected'! It's funny, you'd think that I would have realized that was bothering me from the start, but it comes today as some sort of epiphany! His loss!

I feel like I'm forgetting to mention something important here... but onto Roissy's 16 Commandments! (I will abbreviate them here to save space).

 

[pLaYtHiNg]

by Roissy

I. Never say ‘I Love You’ first

Women want to feel like they have to overcome obstacles... The man who gives his emotional world away too easily robs women of the satisfaction of earning his love... Though you may be in love with her, don’t say it before she has said it...

In some sort of weird way that I don't quite understand, this is true! Especially saying it too early on...

II. Make her jealous

Flirt with other women in front of her. Do not dissuade other women from flirting with you...

I disagree with this... I believe no woman wants to be jealous, and if a protective feeling for the relationship isn't reciprocated it can lead to drama. I want no part of that. (Or is that me wanting to maintain control)?

III. You shall make your mission, not your woman, your priority

Forget all those romantic cliches of the leading man proclaiming his undying love for the woman who completes him... They in fact want to subordinate themselves to a worthy man’s life purpose, to help him achieve that purpose with their feminine support, and to follow the path he lays out. You must.. not lie to her that she is “your everything”...

When a man puts me on a pedestal, I know he is lying and lose respect for him. Furthermore, it makes him seem delusional and unaware of reality.

IV. Don’t play by her rules

If you allow a woman to make the rules she will resent you with a seething contempt even a rapist cannot inspire. The strongest woman and the most strident feminist wants to be led by, and to submit to, a more powerful man...

I agree. If a man is willing to let me run the show, he is not a leader, and I have felt burdened dating men like this. I can lead, but that doesn't mean I want to.

V. Adhere to the golden ratio

Give your woman 2/3 of everything she gives you. For every three calls or texts, give her two back... The idea behind the golden ratio is twofold — it establishes your greater value by making her chase you, and it demonstrates that you have the self-restraint to avoid getting swept up in her personal dramas...

VI. Keep her guessing

True to their inscrutable natures, women ask questions they don’t really want direct answers to... Evade, tease, obfuscate. She thrives when she has to imagine what you’re thinking about her, and withers when she knows exactly how you feel.


Once again, I think this will create drama. Women do need to know their place in a man's life, and we do want to know that we're important... (just not the focus, as mentioned earlier).

VII. Always keep two in the kitty

Never allow yourself to be a “kept man”. A man with options is a man without need... A woman knows once she has slept with a man she has abdicated a measure of her power; when she has fallen in love with him she has surrendered nearly all of it... Withdrawing all her love and all her body in an instant will rend your soul if you are faced with contemplating the empty abyss alone. Knowing there is another you can turn to for affection will fortify your will and satisfy your manhood.

A woman will 'withdraw all her love and all her body' when she finds out you're seeing other women! That's a protective measure. I believe any person, man or woman, should feel comfortable being alone, be strong enough to face it, if need be, and know where to draw the line with others while in a relationship. It seems like this is more about maintaining an ego... maybe someone can elaborate?

VIII. Say you’re sorry only when absolutely necessary

Do not say you’re sorry for every wrong thing you do... Instead, if you have done something wrong, you should acknowledge your guilt in a glancing way without resorting to the actual words “I’m sorry.” Pull the Bill Clinton maneuver and say “Mistakes were made” or tell her you “feel bad” about what you did. You are granted two freebie “I’m sorry”s for the life of your relationship; use them wisely.

I think you should say sorry when you feel it, not when it's 'expected' or to 'pacify' another. Don't apologize to others for their problems. (This is irritating and dismissive in my opinion).

IX. Connect with her emotions

Set yourself apart from other men and connect with a woman’s emotional landscape. Her mind is an alien world that requires deft navigation to reach your rendevous. Frolic in the surf of emotions rather than the arid desert of logic. Be playful. Employ all your senses. Describe in lush detail scenarios to set her heart afire. Give your feelings freedom to roam. ROAM. Yes, that is a good word. You’re not on a linear path with her. You are ROAMING all over, taking her on an adventure. In this world, there is no need to finish thoughts or draw conclusions. There is only need to EXPERIENCE. You’re grabbing her hand and running with her down an infinite, labyrinthine alleyway with no end, laughing and letting your fingers glide on the cobblestone walls along the way.


While this may be vague for some men to interpret, I think this is wonderful advice, as connecting to a woman this way is highly desired.

X. Ignore her beauty

... through positive experiences with so many beautiful women they lose their awe of beauty and, in turn, their powerlessness under its spell... Turn off that part of your brain that wants to put them on pedestals.


The idea behind this is to treat women with indifference. This can be intriguing at first, but can get old after a while, especially if a woman is seeking validation. I wouldn't want to never receive compliments!

XI. Be irrationally self-confident

No matter what your station in life, stride through the world without apology or excuse. It does not matter if objectively you are not the best man a woman can get; what matters is that you think and act like you are... Self-confidence, warranted or not, triggers submissive emotional responses in women.


One thing I want to say about this is, be able to actually internalize and maintain this act if you lack true self-confidence.

XII. Maximize your strengths, minimize your weaknesses

...you must identify your natural talents and shortcomings and parcel your efforts accordingly. If you are a gifted jokester, don’t waste time and energy trying to raise your status in philosophical debate... so play to your strengths no matter what they are...

This is great advice.

XIII. Err on the side of too much boldness, rather than too little

Touching a woman inappropriately on the first date will get you further with her than not touching her at all... they secretly love it when a man aggressively pursues what he wants and makes his sexual intentions known...


I hope this isn't something men will take out of context. It is true, you must make your needs known; having too much confidence is better then having too little.

XIV. Fvck her good

Fvck her like it’s your last fvck. And hers. Fvck her so good, so hard, so wantonly, so profligately that she is left a quivering, sparking mass of shaking flesh and sex fluids. Drain her of everything, then drain her some more. Kiss her all over, make love to her all night, and hold her close in the morning. Own her body, own her gratitude, own her love.

Make each time count!

XV. Maintain your state control

You are an oak tree. You will not be manipulated by crying, yelling, lying, head games, sexual withdrawal, jealousy ploys, pity plays, **** tests, hot/cold/hot/cold, disappearing acts, or guilt trips. She will rain and thunder all around you and you will shelter her until her storm passes. She will not drag you into her chaos or uproot you. When you have mastery over yourself, you will have mastery over her.

While I would wonder why a woman would behave in such ways, not enabling her is important. My brother always has to have the last word with his wife, and they are so full of drama, so perfectly miserable for each other. The advice to stand solid and not partake is excellent and does require self-control and awareness.

XVI. Never be afraid to lose her

...Love yourself before you love her.

Couldn't have said it better. A man who does not love himself cannot love another.

I found the Commandments not offensive, but enlightening to a degree. I did not agree with all that was said, but it opened my mind to ponder many things I had not been aware of before.