No real motivation to meet/date girls anymore

[Manure Spherian]

Agree strongly. I’m like your cousin and I dated (and married) men who matched me in SMV. Water always seeks its own level. I too have a cousin who met her husband on Match. She is a tall cute woman who has a PhD in statistics (she’s a college stats professor) and he’s a very cute Italian computer exec who is a little heavy set. They both have gregarious personalities and laugh all the time. Like you said, they match. They are happy & doing well.

Acceptance is key for people. There IS a woman out there who will be attracted to every man. Not everybody is going to date a super model or a porn star looking girl.

Good post as usual. I think this is likely an unpopular opinion, but I think ordinary men attempting to game especially-high-SMV women make themselves look desperate, especially if the woman is intelligent, has good judgment, and comes from an intact, well-to-do family or insulated community.

Before marrying, a second cousin of mine a was flagrantly hypergamous. And she could be so because she was intelligent, pretty, and from a good family. She would not go on a date with a man unless he was not only high earning, but also in a high-skilled profession (law, medicine, or STEM). She would not go out with others even if they were high earning. She married a tall, handsome dentist with his own practice.

Hypergamy does not backfire for the aforementioned women so long as they go for high SMV men of good character. These women also know damn well who’s in their league and who’s out. Men cannot just talk their way into their lives.

 

[BeExcellent]

Good post as usual. I think this is likely an unpopular opinion, but I think ordinary men attempting to game especially-high-SMV women make themselves look desperate, especially if the woman is intelligent, has good judgment, and comes from an intact, well-to-do family or insulated community.

Before marrying, a second cousin of mine a was flagrantly hypergamous. And she could be so because she was intelligent, pretty, and from a good family. She would not go on a date with a man unless he was not only high earning, but also in a high-skilled profession (law, medicine, or STEM). She would not go out with others even if they were high earning. She married a tall, handsome dentist with his own practice.

Hypergamy does not backfire for the aforementioned women so long as they go for high SMV men of good character. These women also know damn well who’s in their league and who’s out. Men cannot just talk their way into their lives.

That’s true. For me (daughter of a prominent lawyer, neighbors with a state governor, whose kids I grew up with) in an affluent community, this is simply normal.

I was a black sheep for choosing a business owner in the nightclub business as a first husband, and he never completely fit in with some of my social circles.

But I seriously dated a dentist with his own practice, a guy who had an MBA and is an investment banker who helps run the large family ranch; I dated lawyers, doctors and entrepreneurs exclusively. That is what I grew up understanding and that is what fits. My current husband is a technology professional and working on launching his own business.

It is however an unpopular opinion here with the unsuccessful. Those here who are successful and themselves in the high SMV segment of men understand this completely and are witnesses to it, and date hot, smart, accomplished women.

 

[BergischerLöwe]

You write you’re not attracted to sixes and sevens. If you don’t mind me asking, are you a six or a seven?

Are you watching porn? I believe porn use can desensitize men through repeated exposure to exceptionally attractive women, making it so that the man routinely fantasizes and becomes around such women while losing the ability to be aroused by ordinary or cute women.

I have never had such a problem as my libido and mental makeup had it that I was able to be aroused by ordinary looking women, nor did I ever seek exceptionally pretty women to impress other people. I am of moderate SMV (middle class, 5’10”, modestly attractive, but bodybuilder physique) and I’ve always accepted that.

You of course do run the risk of being life-long lonely if you are have ordinary SMV and cannot form a relationship with an ordinary woman.

I’m just curious. Are dating apps that bad? Two of my cousins, sisters, both married with children, met their husbands on Tinder years ago. Two of my divorced friends have other women (pretty much wives without government papers) they met on Bumble, one of whom has a second child with his woman.

What’s worth noting is that in all examples, such people met their matches. For example, the guy with a second wife and second kid with her, he’s fat and ordinary looking, and his wife is fat and ordinary looking (and they both obviously are aware of who they are). One of the cousins, she’s high earning, very attractive, and highly intelligent, and her husband is the same (she’s a corporate executive, he’s a film director).

I think men who can’t accept their matches are headed to loneliness. Unlike some others, I don’t think a man can game his way to the SMV ladder. High SMV women (I don’t just mean their looks) aren’t stupid; if anything, they’re very in touch with who they can attract. If I recall correctly, @BeExcellent covered this and I appreciated her thoughts on the matter. (BeExcellent, you obviously don’t have to comment but I think you have a realistic take on matters.)

I'm attracted to sixes and sevens so long as they have a nice body, and my standards as far as women are concerned aren't actually that high. I'm not going for instagram model types. In terms of looks I'd ideally want a woman who's pretty attractive but not intimidatingly so. So like a girl with a decent face and a reasonably nice body who doesn't look like she's made of plastic. I would be happy if I ended up with a seven in the face with a good figure and a nice rack. I'd say I'm about a seven now but I'd be more attractive if I lost the slight excess bodyfat that I still have. I lift weights and I have for a few years, and my physique has improved but the bit of belly fat that I still have has been slow to come off, and I'm still at a higher bodyfat percentage than I should be. To clarify I don't really look fat while wearing a shirt but there's still excess bodyfat that needs to go.

Other than that I at least vaguely look like I lift. I want to get below 20% bodyfat but it's been very slow going, though fat loss has improved since I started traveling mainly by bicycle instead of driving. Ever since I started lifting I've wanted to be able to get women who care about the state of their bodies as I do. However none of the girls I've been with were the kind that went to the gym, and excluding the few cases where I was with a woman who was naturally thin, all the women I've been involved with were on the chubbier side. They still had attractive faces but they could have stood to lost some weight. I understand that I still should work on getting to below 20% bodyfat in the meantime. Recently I've been gaining weight but losing fat, which is odd.

Dating apps worked better for me in the past but over the years they have given me diminishing returns in both the quality and quantity of matches, especially since 2020 or so. Apps have been ruined by the greed of the companies that run them. Now in order to even have a chance on the apps you have to pay for premium features, and I myself did in the past but no longer since my momey is better spent elsewhere, not supporting these dating app companies that keep single men on a hamster wheel. These apps aren't really designed to actually pair someone up with somebody compatible, but to keep you paying and swiping, hoping that your perfect match is right around the corner. It's like a casino slot machine, they don't want you to win the prize, they merely want you to keep playing and paying.

I do not watch any hardcore porn (defined here as any material depicting sex acts between a man and woman), and the last time I did was more than eight years ago. I'm well aware of the subversive effects of porn and how the porn industry is a psychological weapon being targeted at us. Thus I don't consume hardcore images, and I think it's indirectly cucking yourself to jerk off to material of that kind since basically you're watching a woman you find desirable be taken by another man and pleasuring yourself from that image. It's no different than being a voyeur or one of those loser guys that like to watch their girlfriends have sex with someone else. That said I still occasionally jerk off to softcore images where it's just nude photos of women, but I'm trying to reduce this as much as possible. However in my case the problem with nofap is that it gives me horrible beer goggles and brings my standards down far too much, and I always fall off the wagon with nofap anyway. It can't be sustained for very long.

I think as far as the women I've been able to attract, I've mainly had to settle for less than I'm worth. Most of the time the women have been far more attracted to me than I have been to them, and the few times I've been with a hotter girl it's never any affair that's lasted for more than a couple weeks. It feels like I've been ripped off since most women I've been with have been a tier or so below me in looks I'd say. I've seen guys considerably less attractive than me with girls that are pretty hot, and it always pains me to see this as in this case it's a guy that's nerdier and less masculine than me getting to date the kind of woman I've largely been unable to attain. I think there's something holding me back, and I think it's mainly my personality and the lack of opportunities to meet women naturally. Apps are such a limited scope but they're the only way I can even be seen by women, and since I find the quality and quantity of matches I get on there to be unsatisfactory it always feels like I'm being ripped off and prevented from meeting the kind of women I actually want.

 

[SW15]

I snagged a pdf copy of Day Bang and read thru some of it.

You have some interest in having a woman life if you were able to read some of Day Bang.

I like how it gives specific examples of different venues and has ideas about different openers. The latter is good since if I approached a girl I don't have much of an idea about what to say. However there's a few problems. The only approach venue described in the book that I actually frequent is the grocery store, and in my case I don't see approaching women in the store to be something that would work.

The GALNUC framework is a good framework. I have enough approaching experience now that I can freestyle in approaches but I still think it's a good framework. I like the Open, Stack, Vibe, Investment and Close framework from the London Daygame Model from Torero-Krauser too, but I think that's a more advanced principle than GALNUC. Anyway, it's all theory. The most important thing to do is go out into the real world and make approaches. You don't have to approach in every daygame venue. Some daygame venues work better than others. I like grocery stores a lot for approaching but some other guys tend to prefer malls and coffee shops. Every guy has a daygame venue that's going to be a best fit for him. The only way to figure that out is to go out in the real world and do approaches.

Women are much more guarded and reluctant to be approached than they were at the time the book was written. Also I think trying to approach a women at the store would be a bit too conspicuous and other people would notice me trying to do that and I don't want to be seen as the weird long-haired guy that tries to chat up women while grocery shopping.

Day Bang was released in September 2011 and I read it soon after it was released. It was written in late 2010-2011. You have somewhat of a valid point with women discouraging approaches more now than in 2010-2011, but you're really grasping at straws and making excuses. A man can still go out and make approaches in the real world in 2023.

Furthermore even if I were able to manage to talk to a woman in public without making her uncomfortable, the conversation would very likely just fizz out and nothing would come of it. I don;t really see myself being able to approach in public and actually get a number out of it. Furthermore I don't see hot women at the grocery store very often, and if I do they probably are either already spoken for or wouldn't have much in common with me. The chances of me meeting a woman in public who's not only attractive but has things in common with me who's also single and interested are too remote to ever count on.

Most random, non-bar approaches fizzle out within 30 seconds due to a lack of female interest in most cases OR an extremely poor male conversationalist. In my experience, it is due to a lack of female interest since I am a strong conversationalist. Even good approachers will get rejected over 90 out of 100 times. Most women that you'd approach in a mall, a grocery store, in a park, on a path, or in a gym/fitness class are in the market for a new penis at the time you approach them. Most won't outright mention their boyfriend or husband, but they'll give off such strong indicators of disinterest through body language or one word conversational answers. They also won't ask you any questions about yourself or do anything to extend the conversation.

Since I'm someone who has never gotten with a woman I've initially met irl, meeting a girl irl and getting a number and a date out of it is quite literally an unprecedented scenario for me.

Every man starts somewhere with approaching. A journey of 1,000 miles must begin with one single step. You seem unwilling to take that first step.

 

[BergischerLöwe]

You have some interest in having a woman life if you were able to read some of Day Bang.



The GALNUC framework is a good framework. I have enough approaching experience now that I can freestyle in approaches but I still think it's a good framework. I like the Open, Stack, Vibe, Investment and Close framework from the London Daygame Model from Torero-Krauser too, but I think that's a more advanced principle than GALNUC. Anyway, it's all theory. The most important thing to do is go out into the real world and make approaches. You don't have to approach in every daygame venue. Some daygame venues work better than others. I like grocery stores a lot for approaching but some other guys tend to prefer malls and coffee shops. Every guy has a daygame venue that's going to be a best fit for him. The only way to figure that out is to go out in the real world and do approaches.



Day Bang was released in September 2011 and I read it soon after it was released. It was written in late 2010-2011. You have somewhat of a valid point with women discouraging approaches more now than in 2010-2011, but you're really grasping at straws and making excuses. A man can still go out and make approaches in the real world in 2023.



Most random, non-bar approaches fizzle out within 30 seconds due to a lack of female interest in most cases OR an extremely poor male conversationalist. In my experience, it is due to a lack of female interest since I am a strong conversationalist. Even good approachers will get rejected over 90 out of 100 times. Most women that you'd approach in a mall, a grocery store, in a park, on a path, or in a gym/fitness class are in the market for a new penis at the time you approach them. Most won't outright mention their boyfriend or husband, but they'll give off such strong indicators of disinterest through body language or one word conversational answers. They also won't ask you any questions about yourself or do anything to extend the conversation.



Every man starts somewhere with approaching. A journey of 1,000 miles must begin with one single step. You seem unwilling to take that first step.

I don't really get IOIs from women in public, at least none that I ever notice. This makes me reluctant to approach as well

 

[SW15]

I don't really get IOIs from women in public, at least none that I ever notice. This makes me reluctant to approach as well

That's a good issue to consider. Without IOIs, approaches are less likely to result in arranged dates. You would have more conversations that go nowhere and fizzle out within 30-60 seconds.

At the same time, Millennial women are worse at signaling interest than predecessor generation. This was something that I started to notice in the early 2010s. It would be difficult for me to imagine that Gen Z is better at signaling interest than Millennial women have been.

One of the best seducers I know never looked for IOIs in bars because he knew how poor Millennial women were at signaling. Also, he's 6'4" and he relied a lot on his height to lead to results.

You are a late Millennial so I'm imagining that you're mainly dealing with Gen Z women, who was smartphone zombies before they hit puberty. With the early Millennials like myself, the smartphone stuff didn't start until our 20s.

 

[BergischerLöwe]

That's a good issue to consider. Without IOIs, approaches are less likely to result in arranged dates. You would have more conversations that go nowhere and fizzle out within 30-60 seconds.

At the same time, Millennial women are worse at signaling interest than predecessor generation. This was something that I started to notice in the early 2010s. It would be difficult for me to imagine that Gen Z is better at signaling interest than Millennial women have been.

One of the best seducers I know never looked for IOIs in bars because he knew how poor Millennial women were at signaling. Also, he's 6'4" and he relied a lot on his height to lead to results.

You are a late Millennial so I'm imagining that you're mainly dealing with Gen Z women, who was smartphone zombies before they hit puberty. With the early Millennials like myself, the smartphone stuff didn't start until our 20s.

It may be true that women of my generation are worse at signaling interest, but even so there's gotta be some IOIs that they're capable of showing. That said I never receive IOIs in public either way.

 

[BergischerLöwe]

So I caved and started paying for hinge again. Probably won't have any difference in how many matches I get but for now we'll see. God I hate having to resort to this but my only hope to meet women is to make my profile on dating apps super awesome and super visible

 

[Manure Spherian]

So I caved and started paying for hinge again. Probably won't have any difference in how many matches I get but for now we'll see. God I hate having to resort to this but my only hope to meet women is to make my profile on dating apps super awesome and super visible

What’s your ultimate goal with women? Find one and commit, perhaps marry? Spin plates indefinitely?

 

[BergischerLöwe]

What’s your ultimate goal with women? Find one and commit, perhaps marry? Spin plates indefinitely?

Ideally I want to have a lasting relationship with a woman I'm attracted to and who's compatible with me, somebody I'm really into and not just settling for. Idk if I'd get married on paper, I think what I want is a common law wife if that makes any sense. I don't want to be spinning any plates or go thru a series of long term relationships that last a few years each. Ideally I want to meet someone I really like and can see myself with in the long run, buy some land, settle down, and live a good life. I'm not asking for much, just a woman who I'm attracted to and has things in common with me. I don't want to have kids tho, it's really important to me that any woman I end up dating also doesn't want any. I'm so fed up with the dating world that I want to just meet someone good enough so that I can have the sort of relationship I want and not have to deal with the dating scene ever again.

 

[BergischerLöwe]

This reddit post sums up what I'm feeling:
https://www.reddit.com/r/AskMen/comments/14mg6h2

 

[BergischerLöwe]

Even if there's really nothing I can do to improve my situation with meeting women as I've described it here, at least one thing I can do is focus on reducing bodyfat. At least that's something I can control. Right now I lift weights (mostly the olympic lifts), eat a healthy, processed food and soy free, mostly vegetarian diet mainly consisting of milk, vegetables, beans, and cultured diary products, drink very little alcohol, and travel most places by bicycle. These have made a difference but I'm still over 20% bodyfat. What other things can I do to get my bodyfat percentage down to between 15 and 18 percent?

 

[Manure Spherian]

Even if there's really nothing I can do to improve my situation with meeting women as I've described it here, at least one thing I can do is focus on reducing bodyfat. At least that's something I can control. Right now I lift weights (mostly the olympic lifts), eat a healthy, processed food and soy free, mostly vegetarian diet mainly consisting of milk, vegetables, beans, and cultured diary products, drink very little alcohol, and travel most places by bicycle. These have made a difference but I'm still over 20% bodyfat. What other things can I do to get my bodyfat percentage down to between 15 and 18 percent?

1. Track calories and macros.
2. Increase physical activity and/or decrease calories.
3. Put on more muscle. Doing mostly Olympic lifts will not have as drastic an effect as a more size-focused routine will.

I don’t advise vegetarianism for your goal.

I don’t think reducing bodyfat will land you women you want considering your situation. I read some of your posts yesterday and, if I remembered some of what you said correctly, it seemed that what is keeping you alone is women being 20 pounds overweight. Other than that, do these women who you have the chance of “settling” for have redeeming qualities for your aim of a long term meaning relationship?

 

[BergischerLöwe]

1. Track calories and macros.
2. Increase physical activity and/or decrease calories.
3. Put on more muscle. Doing mostly Olympic lifts will not have as drastic an effect as a more size-focused routine will.

I don’t advise vegetarianism for your goal.

I don’t think reducing bodyfat will land you women you want considering your situation. I read some of your posts yesterday and, if I remembered some of what you said correctly, it seemed that what is keeping you alone is women being 20 pounds overweight. Other than that, do these women who you have the chance of “settling” for have redeeming qualities for your aim of a long term meaning relationship?

Sometimes the women I could settle for have redeeming qualities, but physically I’m not as attracted to them so I can never really catch feeling for them. I’m tired of mainly attracting women that are way more into me than I’m into them. I can’t force myself to settle, even if they have redeeming qualities. To do so wouldnt be healthy

 

[SW15]

I've had a goatee with a mustache before and I prefer the look of just the mustache. Plenty of guys with mustaches have girlfriends, I don't see why women would perceive it negatively

The mustache has a negative connotation due to its association with creepy 1970s-1980s porn stars like Ron Jeremy.

Having a goatee prevents you from such associations.

 

[BergischerLöwe]

The mustache has a negative connotation due to its association with creepy 1970s-1980s porn stars like Ron Jeremy.

Having a goatee prevents you from such associations.

Mine doesn't look like that of ron jeremy tho. Completely different style. I'm German so it actually makes sense to have a handlebar mustache lol

 

[SW15]

Mine doesn't look like that of ron jeremy tho. Completely different style

Every mustache has a negative association. Your handlebar mustache would be considered weird and outdated. A typical Millennial and Gen Z female finds anything unusual to be creepy.

I find that I have my strongest douchebag energy when I have a goatee. I have had a goatee before, a mustache/beard combo before, and been clean shaven.

 

[BergischerLöwe]

Goatee without a mustache would look weird on me. But I look worse clean shaven. I look the best with only a mustache, at least I think so. I've had a mustache and goatee before but I didn't like it as much.