mrRuckus' 5x5 madcow/bill starr journal

[mrRuckus]

Manuva, I really don't endorse any type of training.

I've seen the 3-4 day rest between workouts before.. but i always see them labeled as for hardgainers who have poor recovery ability. So when a hardgainer switches to more infrequent training they suddenly do see gains because they're finely out of perpetual overtraining. But these same programs are whole body type lifts with Workout 1 and Workout 2 repeated every 3-4 days. You mentioned a more traditional body part split.

And even those nowadays everyone is rebelling against for various reasons (for example, you can't really separate body parts too well in isolation but i guess that's taken care of if you leave giant gaps between workout days)

I think a ton depends on the individual. And not only that but how advanced the individual is. For all we know if i start working out every 4 days i'll grow slower or i might suddenly be able to lift cars.

It looks like you advocate constant recovery but madcow2 is more into slow accumulation of fatigue followed by a period of slowly stripping away fatigue and repeat.

I'm actually looking a bit at Hypertrophy Specific Training now. I've been following this one guy's journal who was doing 5x5, which is more strength oriented than size, and finished a good run of it.. and changed to HST, which is focused more on muscle growth... and he claims that HST is giving him the best strength gains of his life. Then of course other people get the opposite effect.

I really have no idea and don't advocate anything too much beyond eat, rest and too much volume is the devil for most people.

So in the end if have no idea what i'm going to do... except:

next post!

 

[mrRuckus]

Wednesday Sept 13 2006

Squats
135, 160, 195 (cutting the volume a bit and skipped set 4)

Press
75, 90, 105, 120 (personal record done easily and usually this is my hardest exercise... damn body always pulling tricks on me)

Deadlift
185, 225, 260, 300 (Easy as pie. still feel like i could add a bunch more weight)


So my left bicep was achy again after deadlifts. So the obvious solution is that since i'm worrying about my squats stalling and all that i might as well let the bicep get 100% and recover at the same time. Thus I will skip friday and all of next week and slave myself to light cardio. That muscle in my hip needs some freakin rest too.

Then i'll decide whether to just quit 5x5 and move to and try HST. Or to start where i left off on 5x5... OR to reset the weights back a couple and take a running start again. Is the running start needed if you do an entire 11 days off? Recommendations?

 

[mrRuckus]

One thing i forgot to mention was that i think my bench on monday wasn't so good because of a few things.

I did dips on friday in chest style when i normally do them mainly for triceps so maybe it was extra worn out. And i usually take creatine before i workout and on monday i forgot. Shrug just ideas why maybe i screwed up my bench.. not excuses!

 

[Warboss Alex]

..if you feel beat up, rest up. Take a week off, do some cardio, eat some ****ty food, give yourself a physical and mental break, it'll do far more good than harm. If you feel you can keep gaining, keep on truckin'. Simple as!

 

[Warboss Alex]

and you've been on 5x5 for what, 3 months now? and you're gaining with it. I say stick with it for another 3 months. You can't really gauge the effectiveness of a routine over a 10-12 week period.. more like a year.

 

[Madcow2]

I cannot believe you use this as an example.

You seem to have an understanding of some more advanced training principles, yet you don't understand the basic differences between strength training and walking?

The difference is intensity of the activity or how close a given rep or step is to a 1RM effort (i.e. let him pull a tractor or sled to add resistance to walking). That was what I was driving at. Intesity and volume are related and impact on the organism flows from how these parameters intersect over a workout and over a period.

No offense, but I can't take seriously references to homemade webpages and forums as evidence. However, I agree with the majority of what you're saying.

The other side to that is that this is all very commonly known information. You are welcome to research it yourself to verify it - pick up Enoka's Neuromechanics, Zatsiorsky's Science and Practice or Siff/Verkhoshansky's Supertraining and you will cover it completely including full reference information. So you can either trust them (and the post from Meso is probably one of the best S&C coaches in the nation heading a regional olympic training center and likely a future coach of the US team) or read it all and learn for yourself. Honestly though, this stuff is common knowledge - nothing special. If you have a background in this, you will not dispute anything there. It is very basic.

So we're pretty much agreed... he needs to rest.

How can he be overtrained if he is getting stronger? I don't agree - no one else would either. Other than his bicep bothering him (which is local) he has no negative symptoms and certainly none of fatigue or overtraining. One of the very first ones is a performance decrement - he's still setting PRs - it isn't there nor are any other common issues.

As far as 4 days between sessions, basic research shows that it takes a minimum of 4 days before muscles start to supercompensate from an intense strength training session.

How intense? How much volume or work? How much rest for each combination? This is where volume and intensity factor in as well as conditioning of the individual. What might rip you appart, might be quite manageable for someone else due to work capacity and conditioning. What he is doing may or may not be that intense for him, he really only has one heavy set with the ramps (so only 5 reps above 80%). Plenty of guys would laugh at the workload being done here. If all 25 reps were above 80%, that might change (and there are still some guys who could handle that without too much issue depending on whatever else they were doing).

The bottom line here is that he is getting bigger and stronger - how can that not be supercompensation and adequate rest? He certainly won't maintain this forever and it might be getting hard for him but he has a run over 11 weeks, if something was terribly wrong with the parameters he'd either be stopped in his tracks early or be cruising easily.

I know you're more into Dual Factor Theory, however you cannot honestly say that if you workout hard on monday, you're going to be ready to give 100% again on wednesday as MrRuckus is doing.

I don't see him giving 100% on Monday - he has one heavy set in each exercise that he's been making consistently for some time. Also, the program undulates workloads into a heavy/light/medium setup so even if Monday is 100%, Wed certainly isn't. No one works at 100% of their capacity all the time in any sport or activity. Take a look at the programs used by elite sprinters - the majority of their work is not 100% even though sprinting is less intense and more volumous than typical weight training.

This program has been used successfully for 30 years. Many variations exist for different levels and work capacity but typically the layout is similar. For a novice to intermediate lifter it is generally very manageable. Tons of people have used this program and varriants with great success for a long time. Maybe you can compare your credentials and track record in training others with Bill Starr - I personally don't know of many humans on the planet that can even come close to his accomplishments, knowledge, and record. Granted it is always better to have a program tailored specifically to an individual but there is no frequency or overtraining flaw here and he is obviously using it successfully so there is no problem.

Essentially, you don't like the frequency and see it as causing overtraining. Frequency does not exist in isolation from the other variables that compose the program (volume and intensity but also the layout in application, in this case weekly undulation of loading). It is very obvious that number one, he is not overtrained in any way, and number two, he is getting bigger and stronger so the program is working for him. No knowledgable person on the planet would dispute these claims. There is no overtraining, he is getting adequate rest to continue, he will rest more when he needs to when he stops progressing. You don't fix what isn't broken.

 

[Madcow2]

So in the end if have no idea what i'm going to do...

Dude, don't get down. You are doing fine. Watch the bicep. You are not overtrained, you couldn't continue to add weight if you were. While cookie cutters are seldom perfect, this one seems to fit you quite well. If it was too slow for the rate of progress you are able to make, you'd have a longer run. If it was too fast, you'd be done by now and maybe have gotten 1-2 weeks of PRs at the max. If you were overtrained, you'd be missing all your lifts and getting worse and worse (plus in real overtraining you feel like total garbage and can't even think straight). No one who knows this stuff would tell you anything else. Just keep plugging away, you are doing fine. Just keep it up.

 

[mrRuckus]

Thanks, madcow

I did cardio a few times last week... took the weekend off then did cardio yesterday after work and plan to do the same tonight.

i mean to do cardio in the morning before eating but i haven't been getting to bed early enough to do that. did at least once last week.. maybe twice i forget.


I might be going in Friday and do a light workout to prepare myself for next week. Real light. Just to tell my muscles not to get lazy hehe.

I'm not sure if i should set back the weight on everything or not yet though.

 

[mrRuckus]

ugh i tried to lift yesterday and it wasn't so good

squats
3 warmups.... 225x5, 225x3

bench
warmup sets... 195x4, 150x8

rows
warmup sets... 140x5

Are you supposed to have the weight drop so fast? i lost 15 lbs on bench, 35 lbs on squats and 35 lbs on rows in a 9 days of resting.

How can my nervous system forget so much so quickly. boo.

 

[manuva]

Watch it increase from here now you've rested it though.

 

[Madcow2]

Are you supposed to have the weight drop so fast? i lost 15 lbs on bench, 35 lbs on squats and 35 lbs on rows in a 9 days of resting.

How can my nervous system forget so much so quickly. boo.

That's unexpectedly severe, you'll get it back fairly quickly, just start light and build up.

Also, drops like this are one of the reasons you don't see REAL lifters with REAL coaching taking time totally off in big blocks except after competition or a planned vacation. If they have an issue with recovery, they will simply alter the workload rather than stopping all activity. I'm not saying to never take time off, you have your life and a mental break is nice, but that there are reasons that stopping all lifting as a kneejerk reaction is a pretty suboptimal way of handling things. Also, if you were truly in a fatigued state and overreaching - you'd have felt sort of miserable and not just been missing weights (the symptoms are obvious). After a block of concentrated loading, you just don't feel so good totally aside of strength levels (meaning your body is pushed hard and it is telling you to backoff this is accompanied by hormonal changes T/C and other indicators - Glenn, Lon Kilgore, and Mike Hartman have all done research in this area as to predicting levels of fatigue and loading).

Missing lifts and not progressing happens all the time, the need and desirability for a true deload is a separate matter which may occure in conjunction or may not, fatigue may be tolerable but you simply can't adapt to a given stimulus anymore without some variation. And then of course the desirability or optimality from a performance standpoint of 1 week plus of zero training is another matter.

Either way, I'm not sure why you chose this route exactly, I know I certainly didn't recommend it, but obviously you will have to reset the weights. I wouldn't be overly concerned, it's just the loss of some time and being recreational without a set competition date affords you as much time as you want. Maybe reread some of the other stuff I've written here.

 

[mrRuckus]

I took time off because i had a hurt bicep (aching, not sore) and something in my hip kept bothering me when i squatted. I don't know how else to heal those things when nearly every lift would have aggravated the bicep and the hip thing keeps me from doing a full squat and costs me a rep or two sometimes.

The good news is that neither bothered me the other day.

The other part is that i think part of it was that i was mentally drained on friday (dealing with a girl personal issue and she needs slapped in the head) and tired from not enough sleep. I didn't even feel like lifting at all after just 2 exercises. I had planned to do dips too.

I don't think tired killed me THAT much but i know it hurt.

 

[mrRuckus]

Week 13. Week 1 after break.

Sept 25 2006

Squats
135, 155, 185, 217.5, 240x4

Bench
100, 125, 150, 175, 200

Pendlay Rows
85, 105, 125, 145, poo on last set i barely did 4th.

Hyper
35x10

Alright it's coming back. Except rows. I hate rows. I barely get better at them. And you can't just struggle extra hard to finish a rep and if you try really hard to get a rep from the very start you miss it from ending up cheating with your hips. Bah. Oh well i'll work way back up soonly.

 

[mrRuckus]

Wed Sept 27
Squats
120, 150, 185

Press
72.5, 87.5, 102.5, 115

Deadlift
190, 230, 267.5, 307.5



Thurs Sept 29

Squats
120, 150, 185, 210, 245x3, 185x8

Bench
100, 125, 150, 175, 205x3, forgot to do the x8 set

Row
75, 92.5, 115, 130, 150x5, 115x8

Dips (chest)
(BW+35)x8,2,2 (RP)

BB Curls
65x10,4,3 (RP)

 

[A-Unit]

Re:

mrRuckus,

I'm not hijacking your thread, rather inserting my comments.

You began this 5x5 journal, what, maybe 3 months ago?
To be dieseled out like so many guys who've put their time into the iron game it takes years. If you can commit, solidly to at least one year of true lifting, that includes dips, chinups/pullups, squats, bench, and deads, I think you'd be pleasantly surprised. More so than you would be if you NEVER began.

I read your initial threads, and this most recent page.

If you're doing 5x5, great. It's a good starting point. Down the road, maybe you'll want to change to 20 rep squats, and/or try a DC routine, or ask for his counsel. Or even Iron Addict's counsel.

So long as you're getting your protein in big quantities, eating your good fats, some carbs, especially around your workouts, YOU WILL GROW and IMPROVE. If you're not, week to week by 2.5lbs, or an extra rep, add more protein/fat, or take an extra day. Try side activities, like yoga, or see a chiro if you can. Do the cardio as it aids in recovery, metabolism, and lean body mass. It also will help the body better than being so sedentary.

The only thing one can do to gain more mass and strength is ALTER HOW you do the BIG 3. That's it. Deads + Squats = 70%+ of total muscle, as you probably know. What other exercise would help as much as those 2? Would focusing on the eccentric part of the lift? Or maybe super slow lifts? Or maybe static contraction training? No. These are like throwing darts around bullseyes. It doesn't cover the main point, that SIZE follows STRENGTH. Some guys don't appear strong, but they are. Many wrestlers don't have massive size, but they do have great strength evenly distributed throughout their body, mainly b/c they spend their time handling their weight plus another wrestler's weight. Eventually you create the strength that YIELDS the visible size. And the best way to effect the most impressive size with the least stunning genetics is by lifting big, on parts that when they grow, create the greatest visible increase. All supplementary body parts grow as a result of the increase in core strength. Weak biceps are not necessary on a body characterized by a weak back, weak pullups, weak rows, etc.

MORE important is you're dedication to improving your health, physical fitness, dedication to nutrition, and the fact you get out there and lift week in and week out. It isn't about the perfect plan, but the PERFECT WORKOUT now. If a guy is weak, he should begin to learn proper form with the major exercises he will begin to make a staple in his powerlifting/bodybuilding diet. Once he knows form, he works to increase weight within a given rep scheme for a given protocol.

The body for life series has done as much damage as it has good because it's given people the mentality of 2 things...

[1] It can be done in 12 weeks.
[2] That all programs should be measured by the success of BFL, and if it doesn't match it well enough, scrap it, regardless of the individuals genetics, body, habits, and health patterns.

It helped get people into it, but people don't realize TV is fake. Right to the core. And that people might ENDORSE a product, but Anna Nicole Smith had MORE surgery done than she did exercise on her fat body. Even her face looks nothing like it used to. A woman of her size couldn't possibly dump weight that fast, and look like she's nearly a model again. Not when she was topping 200lbs and then some.

Your numbers look great and the main emphasis for ALL people, the only barometer by which we can measure success is strength. Through strength we determine improvement, and through improvement we can measure a concurrent increase in muscle mass. One could factor stamina, but that is not of consequence right now. Strength yields mass, stamina does not. If you're growing within a certain rep range, you are growing muscle mass. Bottom line. Nice job.



A-Unit

 

[Warboss Alex]

The only thing one can do to gain more mass and strength is ALTER HOW you do the BIG 3. That's it. Deads + Squats = 70%+ of total muscle, as you probably know.

your size will always be proportionate to the weight you can use for a 20 rep squat and your 10RM for the deadlift...

 

[mrRuckus]

Wednesday Oct 4

Squats
135x8 (i really don't think my legs can keep up with 3 days a week of squats. 2 is fine but this middle day sucks so i just stopped today..especially if i'm doing cardio too - incline walking)

MP
75, 90, 105, 120 (PR)

Deadlift
195, 235, 275, 310x2

Wow 310 was hard. 307.5x5 was tough last week but only 2 on 310?? I don't even think they were a good two! . I should just have just turned it into 5 singles but hindsight... Oh well i'll get 5 on it next week. At least 4. okay 5!

 

[mrRuckus]

A-Unit,

I really don't know where that came from. What I mean is sure lots of what you say is great but I don't know what inspired that post. I'm confused.

I've been lifting for over a year now... maybe not perfectly all the time but i've surely gotten bigger and stronger and I always progress somehow each work out.

What does body for life have to do with anything? I don't even know what that program is.

 

[Warboss Alex]

A-Unit,

I really don't know where that came from. What I mean is sure lots of what you say is great but I don't know what inspired that post. I'm confused.

I've been lifting for over a year now... maybe not perfectly all the time but i've surely gotten bigger and stronger and I always progress somehow each work out.

What does body for life have to do with anything? I don't even know what that program is.

the A-man is just saying that physiques are built over time and not achievable in 12 weeks as (for example) BFL is endorsing.. basically, just be patient and grind out the basics. they'll never betray you.

 

[mrRuckus]

Fri Oct 6

BW=193 lbs

Squats
125, 155, 185, 225, 250x3, 187.5x8

Bench
102.5, 135, 155, 185, 207.5 x 3, 155x8

Pendlay Row
95, 115, 135, 135, 160x4, 120x8

Dips (chest)
(BW +35)x8.5, 3, 2 Rest Pause (8.5 cause i got all the way to the top but just BARELY couldn't lock out my elbows. i stayed in that position for a good 5 or 6 seconds struggling to lock out before i started just dropping down. I barely got the 2nd rep on the last part of the rest pause too but i won that struggle at the top )

BB Curls
67.5 x 8,4,3 Rest Pause

The 8 rep set of squats is getting hard! The 3 rep set was actually easier. Good, good.

Accidently screwed up my row numbers. Oh well i actually did MORE work than intended on them and a 4th rep on the 3 rep set.

Okay so i'm back into the groove of things and am just about back to what i was before the break. Time to bust through the previous records.