mrRuckus' 5x5 madcow/bill starr journal

[Madcow2]

Nice program Found this randomly on a late night google.

What you are experiencing is improved conditioning i.e. less DOMS/soreness. Even when it comes to cardio and sprints, basically just active recovery which helps tremendously. Pretty much the best thing to do when you are ultra sore to the touch (which is not what you ever want) and can't train because of it is to go and stretch and do some light work to get things moving along. This will get blood in the muscles and flush them out facilitating recovery.

But all in all you are adapting to the increased workload and making solid progress. Just keep at it and if you are making progress after 12 weeks (your original cutoff from post 1) don't you dare stop. The best thing in the world for your lifting and building muscle is increasing your squat, bench, row, dead, overhead etc... - so don't fix what isn't broken. Even if a lift or two has issues, just reset them but continue on the main program (providing it isn't the squat). It will get damn hard toward the end so enjoy the smooth steady run that enables you to carry it the distance. At the very end you will struggle and fail to get all 5 reps. Carry it forward and try to get them the next week even if it's just 1 more rep that's progress and a rep on your 3-4 rep max is a significant achievement so as long as you can get an extra rep you aren't done. When you go two weeks back to back (everyone has a random bad day once in a while) without progress or another rep or even backslide slightly, it's time to reset (or change something) and possibly take an easy week in between.

Also the book Practical Programming will be out sometime in the next few months. Amazon has it for $14 so you can't really go wrong. Ripp/Kilgore/Pendlay lay out multiyear training plans. Basically they explain when, what, and why to change variables to foster continuous progression. This way you aren't flopping between cookie cutter programs but this gives you the understanding and sample template to know what variables need to be manipulated to keep progress going.

Think about this example - most bodybuilders swap exercises, rep ranges, and split/templates around all the time when they start to plateau. They never think to alter intensity/load and volume. Here's basically Ripp and Glenn's entry squatting template, notice how they only change something when progression stops and their changes are strictly in volume and load. Not saying it has to be one way or that's the only thing to change, but this is a FAR more astute methodology and if you like lifting and enjoy progressing, it's something that would be good to know. There is nothing revolutionary in the book, but it serves to uniquely bridge the gap between the recreational lifter or coach and the hard to approach texts where one typically find the theories which assume a strong background in science and application. Maybe this gets BBers out of the "what routine is next" mindset and into a proper one that enables them to think about longer term planning for their goals and progression.

there are really so damn many ways to squat, even to squat with 5 sets of 5, or 6 sets of 4, or 4 sets of 6, or any similar thing, that there is not really any one program... im always hesitant to even write it out as a "program" becasue i dont really know what we will be doing in 4 weeks when we start such a thing... it kind of adapts as it goes.

but there seems to be some confusion as to the pyramid version or the non-pyramid version, so ill try to briefly explain the differences.

the EASIEST method we use for squats, and the one which rip used for beginners, is a simple pyramid program, the weights are pyramided BOTH monday and friday... and another leg exercise is used for wednesday, usually front squats for the young and athletically minded, sometimes leg press for the old and feeble.

say a person tests at 200lbs for 5 reps on their initial workout. well then monday they might do the following sets for 5 reps, 95, 125, 155, 185, 205. fairly equal jumps, ending with a 5lb personal record. if the last set is successfull, then on friday they will go for 210 on their last set, with adjustments on the other sets to keep the jumps about even as needed.

the average beginner can stay on this exact simple program for anywhere from 4 weeks to 4 months, as long as they continue to improve at least 5lbs a week, most can do this for quite a while.

when they stop improving, the first thing he does is to drop a couple of the "warmup" sets down to one or two reps, to decrease fatigue and allow a few more personal records on the top set... so that 200lb top set of 5 workout at this point would at this point have the 155lb set at maybe 3 reps, and the 185lb set at one or two reps, then try for 5 at 205.

this change usually lets people get new personal records for another 2-3 weeks, sometimes more.

at some point, of course, this doesnt work anymore. so now we change the monday workout to 5 sets of 5, still with heavy front squats or for some lighter back squats on wednesday, and the same pyramid on friday, trying for one top set of 5. the 5 sets on monday with the same weiight will be some amount less than the current personal record for one set of 5.

usually with this raise in volume, the weights are set somewhat lighter than they were, and people are given a few weeks to work back to their personal records, then try to go past them, invariably they will pass them, and invariably eventually they will stall again...

at this point we usually lower the volume of training, raise the intensity, in some form we will go with lower reps, lower amounts of sets, cut out a day of squatting, something to allow a raising of the numbers... again, the numbers will raise for a while, then stall again.

a this point, another raise in volume is needed, and at this point we will go to the program that most usually associate with the "5 by 5"... squatting 5 sets of 5 with the same weight 3 times a week, lighter on wednesday and heavier on mon and fri. you are all familiar with this i think, we raise the volume for 2-4 weeks, then slowly cut the volume aned intensity of most workouts, going for a big workout every 1-2 weeks, might be a single, a single set of 5, or even one big 5 sets of 5 workout. with people cycling down for a big contest at thsi point we might go for lower reps and try for the big singles.... with someone not at a place where a big peak is needed, its just cycling down to less sets but keeping the reps at 5, and trying to make a pr on a set of 5. this can be repeated several times over and over, but at some point you have to have a period of lower intensity training for a while in between cycles.

i will add that often, for the people with higher goals who want to really train hard, i will start right in with the 15 hard sets a week version, but with weights low enough that they can endure it, and when they get in condition and get used to the volume, will then go back and start at the normal place where rip starts right from the beginning. i find that people who have been athletically active, who have been training on other programs, etc, usually do well with an initial 4-8 weeks of high volume lower intensity training to get them mentally and physically used to this sort of training, get their form changed to a good squat, etc.

this post describes as much as a year of training for most people, with some that adapt well it is stretched to two years.... two years from when they start their initial "pyramid" workouts, or their initial month or so of conditioning with 15 moderate sets a week to when they get through their first real cycle with heavy weights and 15 sets a week cycled down to a peak.



it seems simple. it is.

Anyway, looks good so far. Enjoy the program.

 

[mrRuckus]

Nice program

Hey.. wow. Welcome. I read (present tense) your stuff on bodybuilding.com under a different name.

Pretty much the best thing to do when you are ultra sore to the touch (which is not what you ever want) and can't train because of it is to go and stretch and do some light work to get things moving along.

To the touch? Hmm i don't know if i've ever had that. Did i give that impression?

Really what has been the hardest with squats lately and holding me back is soreness in my inner right hip. I really don't know what that's called or if "inner hip" is even accurate. A few inches into the middle of the leg from that crease between your crotch and leg. It's probably just the area where football players get a groin pull. Sorry i never had to name it before or think about it. The only time i feel it is while squatting.

But really that went away and was a nonissue on friday. Sometimes it just makes it hard to get out of the hole on a squat.

But all in all you are adapting to the increased workload and making solid progress. Just keep at it and if you are making progress after 12 weeks (your original cutoff from post 1) don't you dare stop.

I forgot i even said that long ago. I just meant i'd see if the program gave me good results or not. I hadn't even thought of stopping 5x5. I have been thinking maybe next I'd do HST next (months away...) and see how that works for me and come back to 5x5 maybe, though. I saved a post of yours about doing that. *digs through his google notebook* http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpost.php?p=8850187&postcount=2

Do you still stand by what you said there? I don't really want to jump around between things too much though.

Even if a lift or two has issues, just reset them but continue on the main program (providing it isn't the squat).

Wait.. if the squat gets stuck what do i do? Reset the whole thing even if the others don't stall? I see my squat stalling before my deadlift does.

As far as rest goes... i should just keep plowing ahead with no break until i stall right? I know DC and HST have those cruise or "strategic conditioning" off weeks, but do you don't really need a recovery week if you're still progressing at a good clip, right?

Think about this example - most bodybuilders swap exercises, rep ranges, and split/templates around all the time when they start to plateau. They never think to alter intensity/load and volume.

Last week when i thought my squat was going to stall, i actually started thinking maybe i should back the squat weights on Wednesday down a little just to make sure i had the gas in me for Friday lifts. It never occurred to me to think to do fewer reps on the "warmup" sets day of a PR lift though. I won't toy with those things quite yet.

Anyway, looks good so far. Enjoy the program.

Yeah thanks a lot for the nice write up of the program and taking the time to read and respond to this journal.

 

[simon]

Really what has been the hardest with squats lately and holding me back is soreness in my inner right hip. I really don't know what that's called or if "inner hip" is even accurate. A few inches into the middle of the leg from that crease between your crotch and leg. It's probably just the area where football players get a groin pull. Sorry i never had to name it before or think about it. The only time i feel it is while squatting.

I get that only when squatting, too. Don't know what the **** it is though.

 

[mrRuckus]

Week 11

Monday Sept 11, 2006

Squat
135, 165, 192.5, 230, 260

Bench
105, 135, 155, 185, 210x3 (BOOOO!!!!!)

Row
90, 115, 135, 155, 180x0 (BOOOOO!!!)



My freakin left bicep has been hurting for 2 days now. I have no idea why. It's aching... not sore. It affected my bench (stabilizing) and row. Could barely finish the 4th set of rows so i didn't even try 180 because it would have gone no where... and it wasn't just my bicep. The weight felt HEAVY.

Not sure if i'll drop the weight back or try again with the bench. I'm going to back the rows down a few weeks. I've been cheating the tiniest bit on the last set of them lately anyway using some hip thrust.

I sure feel like crap on days that i don't blast a PR.

 

[manuva]

Week 11



My freakin left bicep has been hurting for 2 days now. I have no idea why. It's aching... not sore. It affected my bench (stabilizing) and row. Could barely finish the 4th set of rows so i didn't even try 180 because it would have gone no where... and it wasn't just my bicep. The weight felt HEAVY.

You're over training. You need more than 2 days between workouts, the minimum is about 4.

You've been overtraining your body since you began this program and now you're starting to see the cracks appear. Take a week off from lifting completely. No light lifting, no reduced sets, just stop altogether.

Your body needs it.

When you start training again, allow 4 days between sessions.

 

[Madcow2]

You're over training. You need more than 2 days between workouts, the minimum is about 4.

You've been overtraining your body since you began this program and now you're starting to see the cracks appear. Take a week off from lifting completely. No light lifting, no reduced sets, just stop altogether.

Your body needs it.

When you start training again, allow 4 days between sessions.

Why do you need 4 days? You walk every day without issue? You could probably do a single max lift rotated around with no other work for quite a while in less than 4 day increments? There's a balance here between intensity (%1RM), volume, and total workload over a period (which incorporates frequency into the intensity x volume calculation).

If you were overtraining since day 1, how would you possibly have gone through 4 weeks of ramping to current PRs and then on to 6 weeks of constant personal records? Everyone who knows anything about fatigue (and overtraining is simply accrued fatigue) and recovery knows that even in the precursor to overtraining, which is a phase called overreaching (you need to be a total class A nimrod to get to real overtraining), that performance will stall and even drop anywhere from 5-15%. No trainee with much experience can make PRs in this situation and certainly not for another 6 weeks. A linear program is self regulating in that towards the end you will be training very hard and nearing this stage, when PRs slow, then stop, and possibly backslide you need to reset the weights back and possibly change some variables. I'd brush up on dual factor or fitness/fatigue theory, repeated bout effect, etc...Overtraining is all at the nervous system because in a trained individual muscular recovery is almost never the limiting factor. To add to this the nervous system recovers at a far different rate that muscle/strength/fitness is lost, this then leads to undulating loads you see in periodization or even the undulating loads you see during the week in this program (think of it as periodization within a week and even to a degree, off days also fit this mold).

I'd probably start here, read the whole thing but specifically topic #2: http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow1/Topics/Training_Primer.htm
Then go on to this explanation between dual and single factor theories: http://www.higher-faster-sports.com/PlannedOvertraining.html
And lastly this will illustrate how this is utilized at various levels in planning up through the best weightlifters in the world: http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/48-post3.html

That's about it for overtraining, there is certainly the potential for overuse issues if one is unaccustomed to this type of work. A symptom might be the onset of tendonitis even while strength and performance are climbing fast. It's not that you can't ever do this type of work but merely it was too much too fast and you couldn't go from point A to point C without issues so more acclimation and increase of work capacity was required with more time at intermediate point B. This tends to occur in stronger experienced lifters who simply don't devote much time to these exercises (meaning they do 3x10 1x per week so around 30 reps at peak 70-75% versus 75 reps at peak 80-87%). Often times this is compounded by the program's effectiveness in that they start getting stronger fast and it's just too much of an increase for the connective tissue and structure.

As far as the bicep - ****, who knows. Stuff happens, maybe a combination of the weights getting heavy and a lot of workload. Maybe just a freak accident. Maybe it goes away in a few days. Maybe not. Not enough info to diagnose but typically with BBers, it is never ever ever their biceps that get overuse symptoms (they do way too much biceps work for that to be a weak link).

 

[Madcow2]

Week 11

Monday Sept 11, 2006

Squat
135, 165, 192.5, 230, 260

Bench
105, 135, 155, 185, 210x3 (BOOOO!!!!!)

Row
90, 115, 135, 155, 180x0 (BOOOOO!!!)



My freakin left bicep has been hurting for 2 days now. I have no idea why. It's aching... not sore. It affected my bench (stabilizing) and row. Could barely finish the 4th set of rows so i didn't even try 180 because it would have gone no where... and it wasn't just my bicep. The weight felt HEAVY.

Not sure if i'll drop the weight back or try again with the bench. I'm going to back the rows down a few weeks. I've been cheating the tiniest bit on the last set of them lately anyway using some hip thrust.

I sure feel like crap on days that i don't blast a PR.

Give your bicep a rest for a bit, don't keep pounding on it. You do not want it getting any more serious. Is this a kink in the program? Yeah it is but that's the deal when you get hurt. Rest it for a bit, then start very light on it with lower volume to test it for a bit. Stay away from things that aggrivate it right now. Pounding hard on an injury is a good way to take a 2 week interruption and turn it into a 3 month or potentially chronic issue down the road.

I would also hope you don't row underhand or do the Yates Row. This puts the biceps in direct jeopardy as they are exposed directly as by far the smallest and weakest link in a chain of otherwise very large powerful muscles. Just ask Dorian - this is a great way to rip a bi especially if you are working at your limit. Any idea on what might have caused it?

 

[Madcow2]

To the touch? Hmm i don't know if i've ever had that. Did i give that impression?

No, I was just illustrating the point of active recovery vs. sitting around and not doing anything. You are probably somewhere in between - but keep in mind that you may not be recovering 100% and you are sucking up all the recovery you can each time. As the weights rise, eventually you'll run into a stall (welcome to weightlifting - it's just a game of keeping the stimulus and progress outpacing the workload and fatigue, in the beginning it's a context of workout to workout, then week to week, then month to month or 2 months, and at the end it's a multi-year plan for elite lifters at their very best - there's even a book titled a System of Multi-Year Training in Weightlifting by Laputin).

Really what has been the hardest with squats lately and holding me back is soreness in my inner right hip. I really don't know what that's called or if "inner hip" is even accurate. A few inches into the middle of the leg from that crease between your crotch and leg. It's probably just the area where football players get a groin pull. Sorry i never had to name it before or think about it. The only time i feel it is while squatting.

But really that went away and was a nonissue on friday. Sometimes it just makes it hard to get out of the hole on a squat.

I wrote something about overuse above in response to another poster, think about that and watch it. Typically programs are designed for the individual, and knowing if you hadn't done much squatting maybe I'd adjust for that in some way. Cookie cutters don't allow that. Some won't have issues, most people obviously haven't (if you read BBing.com), but some will so you need to watch and back off if necessary. It's no big deal, this is a lot harder training than most are used to and a generic perscription will be all over the board so take care of your body, it won't be long at all before this is nothing and you can raise capacity again.

I forgot i even said that long ago. I just meant i'd see if the program gave me good results or not. I hadn't even thought of stopping 5x5. I have been thinking maybe next I'd do HST next (months away...) and see how that works for me and come back to 5x5 maybe, though. I saved a post of yours about doing that. *digs through his google notebook* http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpost.php?p=8850187&postcount=2

Do you still stand by what you said there? I don't really want to jump around between things too much though.

Yeah, HST is very similar and a good compromise. You get in some higher rep ranges and leverage some of the neural gains (and generally don't subject your body to as much weight), but the principles are all the same even down to fullbody and 3x per week frequency (although this can also be altered). It also allows you to get in a bit more isolation work. Not a full iso heavy 5 day split crap, but just some select exercises to target weak points for your bigger lifts or aesthetics.

Wait.. if the squat gets stuck what do i do? Reset the whole thing even if the others don't stall? I see my squat stalling before my deadlift does.

As far as rest goes... i should just keep plowing ahead with no break until i stall right? I know DC and HST have those cruise or "strategic conditioning" off weeks, but do you don't really need a recovery week if you're still progressing at a good clip, right?

This program is based on the backsquat, and that's a damn good exercise for piling on muscle and serves as a base for the other lifts. But really in the context of overtraining/fatigue - this is systemic and it's best to keep it together. And when the squat starts to go and stall, it will have an impact on everything just because it's a big effort and taxing so it's a good point to reset everything or make some other change. Now if you just overestimated your squat and every other lift was flying along, don't worry, but if you have some time in and things start to get heavy and stall, reset the whole thing.

Last week when i thought my squat was going to stall, i actually started thinking maybe i should back the squat weights on Wednesday down a little just to make sure i had the gas in me for Friday lifts. It never occurred to me to think to do fewer reps on the "warmup" sets day of a PR lift though. I won't toy with those things quite yet.

Yeah, there's a lot of things that can be done and can work. This is kind of the art of training and this is what makes a great coach - knowing what to do, why to do it, and when to do it for a given lifter. That's why I suggested Practical Programing (now November 30th it looks like for release). This is the real real key stuff and right now I think it's the best way for a recreational lifter to get this type of info and start thinking along these lines. The other ways involve years of lifting, years of reading, and a lot of discussion with people who actually do have a lot of experience and can help guide you.

Yeah thanks a lot for the nice write up of the program and taking the time to read and respond to this journal.

No problem. I've always loved weightlifting and I get a lot of pleasure out of seeing people progress and learn. The learning component is particularly important because there is so much bull**** floating around. It's not really very hard. It's not retardedly simple either where a single "do this" will get you optimally from A to Z but people largely just don't know jack **** and need some working examples to illustrate certain points.

If you haven't read the Training Primer I wrote up a while back, it's a decent read although you might already be familiar with a lot of it depending on how much of my stuff you've read. http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow1/Topics/Training_Primer.htm. Basically I figure that this contains just about everything to set people straight and if novice lifters read it, they will have a good comprehensive understanding and a lot less likely to be mislead by the bogus stuff floating around.

This is also a good read for you: After 5x5 What Next: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5466367&postcount=958
If you are into more theory after the Training Primer you can always wade through this: http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/training-forum/best-meso-training-theory-8500.html or even pick up Science and Practice or Supertraining (much harder reading) but honestly I'm hoping that Practical Programming will fill that giant gap for people. We'll see.

 

[mrRuckus]

You're over training. You need more than 2 days between workouts, the minimum is about 4.

You've been overtraining your body since you began this program and now you're starting to see the cracks appear. Take a week off from lifting completely. No light lifting, no reduced sets, just stop altogether.

Overtraining? I've been accumulating fatigue as planned. Then i can back off the aggressiveness with the weights a little bit with some active recovery and backing down the weights and let my nervous system catch up and pummel my new records into the ground again.

And if overtraining is gaining 40 lbs on my squats, 35 lbs on my bench, 50 lbs on my deadlift and 25 lbs on my bent over row in 10 weeks then overtrain me overtrain me!

 

[mrRuckus]

Give your bicep a rest for a bit, don't keep pounding on it.

I would also hope you don't row underhand or do the Yates Row. Any idea on what might have caused it?

I do the pendlay rows from the floor. I've tried to follow your 5x5 description as much as possible.

And my bicep feels fine today. I don't think it's a lingering thing at all. If anything it's just annoyed by the barbell curls that i don't do very often. I usually don't do direct bicep work and it was probably just mad at me from Friday.

 

[mrRuckus]

This program is based on the backsquat, and that's a damn good exercise for piling on muscle and serves as a base for the other lifts. But really in the context of overtraining/fatigue - this is systemic and it's best to keep it together. And when the squat starts to go and stall, it will have an impact on everything just because it's a big effort and taxing so it's a good point to reset everything or make some other change. Now if you just overestimated your squat and every other lift was flying along, don't worry, but if you have some time in and things start to get heavy and stall, reset the whole thing.

I'm not sure if i'm stalling on my squat or not. It was hard last Monday... then it was easy on Friday. Then it was hard on Monday again and i barely did it.. i didn't go as low as usual on the last 2 reps. I can see myself on Friday being able to put on 7 more lbs and be able to do 3 reps. What I think might be stalling is the 5 rep range. The 3 i can do easy and never have any problem with it at all. It's almost like i can just do 3 reps on monday then the same weight for 3 on friday then raise the weight on monday and repeat. This is the same with the 3 reppers on bench (and rows now that i think about it). It's just so much easier to do 3 at a higher weight. Does this mean i just don't have the endurance? But ~7 lbs for squats and ~5 lbs for bench progress a week in the 3 rep range is still good progress so maybe i shouldn't even worry about the monday lifts only hitting 3 or 4 reps in the final set as long as the Friday lift keeps increasing.

It's just getting confusing to me.. i only want to do what's fastest in the long run ya know? Even if it means sitting on my butt for 2 weeks. I try not to be anal which is why i can be like "oh well i missed some lifts on a couple days it's not like i'm going no where"... but at the same time maybe just resetting back the weights 2 weeks would let me recover enough to go back to making records on BOTH monday and friday again.

I guess what i'm sitting on now is whether i should reset a couple lifts... all lifts... or none of the lifts and be happy with slower weight gains and sometimes only gaining a rep or two at the same weight.

If you haven't read the Training Primer I wrote up a while back, it's a decent read although you might already be familiar with a lot of it depending on how much of my stuff you've read. http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow1/Topics/Training_Primer.htm. Basically I figure that this contains just about everything to set people straight and if novice lifters read it, they will have a good comprehensive understanding and a lot less likely to be mislead by the bogus stuff floating around.

I think i've read every page and link on your geocities site . A bunch of them multiple times.

Again, thanks a lot.

mrRuckus

p.s. damn you for making all my pants not fit

 

[Madcow2]

I'm not sure if i'm stalling on my squat or not. It was hard last Monday... then it was easy on Friday. Then it was hard on Monday again and i barely did it.. i didn't go as low as usual on the last 2 reps. I can see myself on Friday being able to put on 7 more lbs and be able to do 3 reps. What I think might be stalling is the 5 rep range. The 3 i can do easy and never have any problem with it at all. It's almost like i can just do 3 reps on monday then the same weight for 3 on friday then raise the weight on monday and repeat. This is the same with the 3 reppers on bench (and rows now that i think about it). It's just so much easier to do 3 at a higher weight. Does this mean i just don't have the endurance? But ~7 lbs for squats and ~5 lbs for bench progress a week in the 3 rep range is still good progress so maybe i shouldn't even worry about the monday lifts only hitting 3 or 4 reps in the final set as long as the Friday lift keeps increasing.

It's just getting confusing to me.. i only want to do what's fastest in the long run ya know? Even if it means sitting on my butt for 2 weeks. I try not to be anal which is why i can be like "oh well i missed some lifts on a couple days it's not like i'm going no where"... but at the same time maybe just resetting back the weights 2 weeks would let me recover enough to go back to making records on BOTH monday and friday again.

You're doing fine. The proxy is the set of 5 on Monday. This is the whole goal - the set of 3 is just accomodation before you do it for 5. It just gets hard toward the end. Welcome to the world - you didn't think this would last forever did you? ****, we'd have 800lbs squatters in 2 years. This pace seems about right for you though. That's a nice run of weekly progress. If it was too slow, you'd be sailing smooth still and be out 20 weeks and if it was too fast, you'd have stalled before now. Even if you only get 3 weeks of 2.5% PRs for every ramp up of 4 weeks, that is still nice fast progress that many advanced lifters would kill for.

I guess what i'm sitting on now is whether i should reset a couple lifts... all lifts... or none of the lifts and be happy with slower weight gains and sometimes only gaining a rep or two at the same weight.

A rep on your 4RM is fricking huge. This is not some little pittance. Hit the equations and figure out the percentage impact on your 1RM. It's probably around 3-4%. We aren't talking about a 16th rep on your best set of 15 here. This is real fundamental progress. Keep grinding and fighting.

I think i've read every page and link on your geocities site . A bunch of them multiple times.

Again, thanks a lot.

mrRuckus

p.s. damn you for making all my pants not fit

Cool, glad it's helping. Sometimes I think no one reads it and everyone just picks off the programs - which for my purposes of teaching is totally counter to what I'm aiming for. That was actually why I didn't provide templates originally and struggled with it for a while, because to run the program reading it and calculating it out makes sure you are committed and that you understand it. The problem was most people weren't used to doing things like that or planning anything so a spreadsheet provides a good easy look to make sure you have it right.

Honestly, you seem to have a good handle on it and it's increased my faith that some actually do read my stuff (but of course the people who read are never the ones asking questions so reading the forums skews your view - like working in the complaint department). The last weeks are hard but keep it in perspective that this is where you are really struggling to push out your best and get those PRs come hell or high water (even if it's 1 rep on your last with the same weight, that's a PR). This is the time for "intensity" in the HIT sense so if it's going to be hard, psyche up or do whatever it takes to get that damn lift and keep it going. Do keep in mind that psyching is basically exciting your CNS or arrousal so it's also taxing independently of lifting, but at the end, you got to get it done so when you get to your heavy set and you know you may not make it, then clear your head and get ready for battle. This is where you make your stand.

 

[manuva]

Why do you need 4 days? You walk every day without issue?

I cannot believe you use this as an example.

You seem to have an understanding of some more advanced training principles, yet you don't understand the basic differences between strength training and walking?

You could probably do a single max lift rotated around with no other work for quite a while in less than 4 day increments?

Yes you probably could. However he is not.

There's a balance here between intensity (%1RM), volume, and total workload over a period (which incorporates frequency into the intensity x volume calculation).

Correct.

If you were overtraining since day 1

You can't overtrain from day 1. Overtraining is accrued fatigue as you say, and builds up over weeks and months.

how would you possibly have gone through 4 weeks of ramping to current PRs and then on to 6 weeks of constant personal records? Everyone who knows anything about fatigue (and overtraining is simply accrued fatigue) and recovery knows that even in the precursor to overtraining, which is a phase called overreaching (you need to be a total class A nimrod to get to real overtraining), that performance will stall and even drop anywhere from 5-15%. No trainee with much experience can make PRs in this situation and certainly not for another 6 weeks. A linear program is self regulating in that towards the end you will be training very hard and nearing this stage, when PRs slow, then stop, and possibly backslide you need to reset the weights back and possibly change some variables. I'd brush up on dual factor or fitness/fatigue theory, repeated bout effect, etc...Overtraining is all at the nervous system because in a trained individual muscular recovery is almost never the limiting factor. To add to this the nervous system recovers at a far different rate that muscle/strength/fitness is lost, this then leads to undulating loads you see in periodization or even the undulating loads you see during the week in this program (think of it as periodization within a week and even to a degree, off days also fit this mold).

I'd probably start here, read the whole thing but specifically topic #2: http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow1/Topics/Training_Primer.htm
Then go on to this explanation between dual and single factor theories: http://www.higher-faster-sports.com/PlannedOvertraining.html
And lastly this will illustrate how this is utilized at various levels in planning up through the best weightlifters in the world: http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/48-post3.html

No offense, but I can't take seriously references to homemade webpages and forums as evidence. However, I agree with the majority of what you're saying.

That's about it for overtraining, there is certainly the potential for overuse issues if one is unaccustomed to this type of work. A symptom might be the onset of tendonitis even while strength and performance are climbing fast. It's not that you can't ever do this type of work but merely it was too much too fast and you couldn't go from point A to point C without issues so more acclimation and increase of work capacity was required with more time at intermediate point B. This tends to occur in stronger experienced lifters who simply don't devote much time to these exercises (meaning they do 3x10 1x per week so around 30 reps at peak 70-75% versus 75 reps at peak 80-87%). Often times this is compounded by the program's effectiveness in that they start getting stronger fast and it's just too much of an increase for the connective tissue and structure.

As far as the bicep - ****, who knows. Stuff happens, maybe a combination of the weights getting heavy and a lot of workload. Maybe just a freak accident. Maybe it goes away in a few days. Maybe not. Not enough info to diagnose but typically with BBers, it is never ever ever their biceps that get overuse symptoms (they do way too much biceps work for that to be a weak link).

So we're pretty much agreed... he needs to rest.

As far as 4 days between sessions, basic research shows that it takes a minimum of 4 days before muscles start to supercompensate from an intense strength training session.

I know you're more into Dual Factor Theory, however you cannot honestly say that if you workout hard on monday, you're going to be ready to give 100% again on wednesday as MrRuckus is doing.

 

[manuva]

Overtraining? I've been accumulating fatigue as planned. Then i can back off the aggressiveness with the weights a little bit with some active recovery and backing down the weights and let my nervous system catch up and pummel my new records into the ground again.

And if overtraining is gaining 40 lbs on my squats, 35 lbs on my bench, 50 lbs on my deadlift and 25 lbs on my bent over row in 10 weeks then overtrain me overtrain me!

No offense, but those are below average gains for a 10 week period, unless you're already an advanced lifter.

I can guarantee you - beyond any shadow of doubt - that with 4 days rest between sessions your lifts would have increased far more rapidly.

It's something I see regularly with new clients - their gains have stagnated so they come and see me. I ditch their old routine and create a new one with lots more rest, and their gains start to climb rapidly. Go figure.

 

[mrRuckus]

No offense, but those are below average gains for a 10 week period, unless you're already an advanced lifter.

I can guarantee you - beyond any shadow of doubt - that with 4 days rest between sessions your lifts would have increased far more rapidly.

It's something I see regularly with new clients - their gains have stagnated so they come and see me. I ditch their old routine and create a new one with lots more rest, and their gains start to climb rapidly. Go figure.

This post is really discouraging to me. I'm gaining too slowly? I could be gaining faster? Why is 50 lbs on squats and 35 lbs to my 5x5 maxes in like 10-11 weeks below average?! I even gained about 10 lbs. It's not like i'm a newbie anymore were adding 10 lbs a week is easy as pie.

On another guy's 5x5 journal he did this on his first run before stalling

Results on the 5x5
Previous 5rm New 5rm
Squat 255 310
Bench 235 266
Deadlift 275 330
Row 135 170
Military 135 175

Wouldn't i be able to do that on a reset followed by a new run now that my new 5RMs around his original 5RMs?

Anyway now i'm just feeling really discouraged. It's not fun being told i could've done a lot better. Feels like wasted time :/

 

[mrRuckus]

I know you're more into Dual Factor Theory, however you cannot honestly say that if you workout hard on monday, you're going to be ready to give 100% again on wednesday as MrRuckus is doing.

I have no idea

Even DC builds 300 lb monstrosities with guys giving all they've got 3 days a week and they seem to grow like weeds lifting far heavier weights than me lifting like that for 8-12 weeks before a cruise week or two.

I always heard it was more the nervous system that needs to recover than the muscle itself.

 

[Throttle]

ignore manuva's carping about how your gains aren't impressive. YOU are making gains and THAT is impressive--think of all the idiots doing all the wrong things in & out of the gym and going nowhere with it. Screw this maximizing your potential stuff--nobody can tell YOU how to maximize YOUR potential. All you can do it keep making gains, and switch something up (volume, load or intensity, or at very last resort, switch programs) when you aren't. And when that happens most of us should take a close look at our diet before blaming our lifting.

This pissing contest stuff is total bull, so you'd do best to ignore it.

How many times in a row did manuva just say "No offense, but"? -- that's bull and he knows it. He WANTS you to take offense. He yap-yap-yaps about overtraining (not just with you but in other threads) but clearly you're not--you're making gains. End of story.

 

[mrRuckus]

A rep on your 4RM is fricking huge. This is not some little pittance. We aren't talking about a 16th rep on your best set of 15 here. This is real fundamental progress. Keep grinding and fighting.

Yea i suppose. I try not to think of it as "hey i added one or two reps this week" but more like i added one or two reps PLUS weight to the 4 sets before that... so in reality i completely increased my workload ability since last time instead of just "oh i got 1 or 2 reps."

It's just sad that i can't add 5-10 lbs and get all 5x5 every time anymore. And no i didn't expect that to work forever! But hey i am still getting most of the reps of the 5x5 at 5-10 more pounds but only getting 3 or 4 of them instead all 5.

A lot of the time 1 or 2 more reps is a bigger leap than adding weight too.
200x5 is more work done than 205x3, right? But i haven't even hit the point where i ONLY increase reps yet.

Thanks

 

[mrRuckus]

YOU are making gains and THAT is impressive--think of all the idiots doing all the wrong things in & out of the gym and going nowhere with it. Screw this maximizing your potential stuff--nobody can tell YOU how to maximize YOUR potential. All you can do it keep making gains, and switch something up (volume, load or intensity, or at very last resort, switch programs) when you aren't. And when that happens most of us should take a close look at our diet before blaming our lifting.

I want to maximize my gains. I don't like wasting time or energy. Whatever is quickest is what i want to do. I'm not afraid of hard work. If anyone has anything to say to help me realize my potential then i'm all ears.

I'm pretty sure my diet is just fine. I get my 2g/lb protein and more than a maintenance level of calories. Maybe i have too much whey but i can't afford and don't have the time to do much more cooking than i do (which is already a lot!).

How many times in a row did manuva just say "No offense, but"? -- that's bull and he knows it.

Yea i notice those sort of things too but i usually just assume some people like to be gruff and to the point and don't really intend to be too offensive. I know I do it a lot especially in the don juan sections.

Manuva's been around a while and usually seems to know what he's talking about so i respect whatever he has to say.

Thanks for your post.

 

[manuva]

Sorry if I came off harsh mate, I was tired didn't have the energy to express myself more eloquently.

I don't want to discourage you at all - I really believe in the all-round health benefits of training and would hate to think I've affected your motivation.

I'm passionate about personal training and I hate to see someone as dedicated as yourself not optimizing their training. (Although its worth pointing out that there are many different perspectives in the fitness industry and none of them can claim to be 'right' as such, they can simply have opinions on what works based on their own research and results.)

I can always tell when one of my clients has done a strength training workout 2 or 3 days before our session - their performance is sub-par, they lack energy, drive and generally this shows in their lifts.

Contrast this with a colleague I work with, who has recently changed his program after reach plateaus. He is using a 3 day split (with fairly average exercises IMO) but leaves 4 days between each workout... thats TWELVE days before repeating a muscle group. His gains have been phenomenal - his big lifts are flying up, and he's putting on slabs of muscle.

All in all, any routine that gives you gains is a good routine. And yours is obviously working, so congrats on your dedication.

As I mentioned before, there's always going to be different opinions in this industry, and none can honestly say they are 'right'. For every argument in favour of a specific type or style of training, there's going to be some pretty good arguments against it.

My advice is to try a few different methods and see what you enjoy most and what works for you best. Another friend, who is also a personal trainer, follows a pretty strange program which I would never endorse, yet he insists its the program that works best for him. He's a big guy, so all I can do is agree.

Don't get discouraged mate - that sure wasn't my intent. I was just hoping to offer some professional advice and maybe help you along in achieving your goals.


All the best.