Matrix is becoming more than the norm (wife cheating thread)...

[Hooligan Harry]

Just goes to show that it isn't just the chicks who grew up in broken homes that engage in improper behavior. The floodgates are open for even "normal" women to partake of their carnal desires, despite a decent upbringing.

So true. The sooner people realise that this IS normal behavior for woman the sooner they will stop being so surprised when this **** happens to them or someone they know. A stripper or a church girl, YOU NEVER KNOW. Its not bad women being bad women, its women being women. Women are opportunistic by nature when it comes to interpersonal relationships. Its not just with men, its with all their relationships bar family (and even that can be a tad iffy at times too. I have known sisters to compete for men FFS)

Consider how many men you know that have had lifelong friendships with people. Im willing to bet that there are men here who have been friends with some people since kindergarten. You probably have friends you have not spoken to in 3 years but if you hooked up it would be as if you saw them yesterday. You form lifelong and long term friendships with people because you understand to your core what loyalty and trust means. You know that those relationships require loyalty and trust. It is an unspoken given. Men need their packs and its a survival mechanism hardwired into us, which would fail horribly if we could not be loyal or trustworthy. Why do you think so many men are into team sports? Why do you think they organise "boys weekends"? Why do you know you could give a genuine friend $100 000 to watch for you and he would not spend it? Would not even think about spending it?

How many women do you know of that can say the same thing about their own relationships? Their concept of friendship is different. Their concept of "relationship" is different. They tend to be SELFISH in their relationships with people. Its how you make HER feel. Its how you support HER. Its about what YOU bring to the table. Its what YOU are expected to provide. Its what you do for HER. She just has to be there.

How can you expect loyalty from a woman when she has no real concept or understanding of it? That deep seated knot you get in your stomach when you know a mate needs help is something I do not think they feel. They feel the pain of potential loss which drives them, not the pain of failing to meet an obligation. There is a massive difference between the two.

The minute there is no significant pain in the loss of the relationship is the minute the relationship will be something she will not bother trying to protect. Which is why divorce rates are through the roof. This why this statement...

This is what happens when women have absolutely no fear of any consequences. No fear of losing the house. No fear of losing the kids. No fear of having the "lifestyle she's accustomed to" diminished in any way. Hell, no fear of physical harm. The only way to offset vag moistening from other men, these days, is with the fear of losing you- if she stops thinking that you're a catch, or dosent care for you anymore, then all bets are off.

...is so true.

Now you can accept this or you can continue to live in fvcking Disneyland.

Whats the solution though? I wish I knew. What I do know is this. Woman cannot be expected to go against their own nature. I dont expect them too and I certainly dont resent them for it. I love women even though they are not perfect and they are completely unreliable. For all their bad qualities, they have their very good qualities too

What I can do as a man is make sure that I have my **** together. I can make sure I dont buy into this modern day, emasculated vision of what a man is supposed to be. I can make sure I dont compromise my own character and values. I can also make sure that when it comes to women and sex, I will no longer feel obliged to operate within the rules we are expected to operate within when I know for a fact she does not have the capacity to do the same.

The rules worked because women had something to lose. The minute they had nothing to lose they started breaking the rules. Its not that she is a low quality woman, its that the environment you are playing the game in is a low quality environment.

Either change the environment or change the way you play the game. Or continue to delude yourself into thinking that there are "high quality women" and continue to see yourself and people you know getting burned when they cant deliver everything she hoped for.

 

[Tazman]

Well, who has "incentive"? That was the stuff of prior generations when divorce wasn't an option. Aside from those who mistakenly think "we have to stick together for the kids" down to "we have to stick together for the medical insurance" down to the guy who needs to stick it out because it's gonna cost him a small fortune in the divorce, there is no incentive. What? An incentive would be trying to revive a formerly wayward wife to a life where you have to wonder - for the rest of your life - if she every time coming home late from the job or the grocery store was because of traffic or because she was blowing her latest lover? That blows, pun intended.

I believe it's partly because of the times we live in. The incentive at one time was mere "survival". Now instead of a select few, damn near everyone has so many "options" that it becomes difficult not to indulge, people have too much time on their hands. Most people will take advantage of any benefit they have until they have exhausted it, that's what I believe is happening now. Women are at an advantage (thanks in part to feminism), they can be as whimsical as they want without facing any of the harsh realities that you mentioned.

It doesn't mean you have to be paranoid about every woman you're with, it just means that you need to look out for number 1 (yourself). You can remain cognizant and observant of your surroundings without obsession or paranoia. In fact, the more "aware" you are the more comfortable you'll be, at least that's been my experience.

Haven't you ever in your life had to stand up for yourself even though it was uncomfortable, not popular, not what you'd want to do BUT you HAD to do it. WE men have that sense, it's what makes us men.Not to sound antiquated, but it's why we're attracted to the personas of a John Wayne, Clark Gable or Gary Cooper. And why women are. These qualities resonate and last through generations because they're universally masculine. It has that masculine quality to it that registers. Deeply. It doesn't always work for us, but we have it nonetheless. Those that don't are considered spineless, true?

I agree, but I'd say going against the grain in the here and now requires one to throw away the notion that there are "quality" people out there. This is what's being sold to you, this is why guys are falling for these women that are wolves in sheep's clothing. You can't just define people in absolute terms. You can certainly judge people based on whatever trends you observe, but don't lose sight of the fact that people can and do change (circumstantially). That's what causes "complacency", believing you can just sit back and relax because you're with a "quality" person.

Again, I'm not going to pretend that it's never a guys fault when relationships end, but at the same time, where do you draw the line? I'm seeing something different happening out here. I'm seeing more men who are p-ssy whipped and doing everything but "neglecting" women and are being discarded like old news papers, what's worse is these women who complain about a lack of communication aren't saying anything to these men, they're just out there branch swinging like ninjas in the jungle.

 

[Trader]

So true. The sooner people realise that this IS normal behavior for woman the sooner they will stop being so surprised when this **** happens to them or someone they know. A stripper or a church girl, YOU NEVER KNOW. Its not bad women being bad women, its women being women. Women are opportunistic by nature when it comes to interpersonal relationships. Its not just with men, its with all their relationships bar family (and even that can be a tad iffy at times too. I have known sisters to compete for men FFS)

Consider how many men you know that have had lifelong friendships with people. Im willing to bet that there are men here who have been friends with some people since kindergarten. You probably have friends you have not spoken to in 3 years but if you hooked up it would be as if you saw them yesterday. You form lifelong and long term friendships with people because you understand to your core what loyalty and trust means. You know that those relationships require loyalty and trust. It is an unspoken given. Men need their packs and its a survival mechanism hardwired into us, which would fail horribly if we could not be loyal or trustworthy. Why do you think so many men are into team sports? Why do you think they organise "boys weekends"? Why do you know you could give a genuine friend $100 000 to watch for you and he would not spend it? Would not even think about spending it?


How many women do you know of that can say the same thing about their own relationships? Their concept of friendship is different. Their concept of "relationship" is different. They tend to be SELFISH in their relationships with people. Its how you make HER feel. Its how you support HER. Its about what YOU bring to the table. Its what YOU are expected to provide. Its what you do for HER. She just has to be there.

Very observant - relationships between men can be strong - almost all female friendships are paper-thin

What I can do as a man is make sure that I have my **** together. I can make sure I dont buy into this modern day, emasculated vision of what a man is supposed to be. I can make sure I dont compromise my own character and values. I can also make sure that when it comes to women and sex, I will no longer feel obliged to operate within the rules we are expected to operate within when I know for a fact she does not have the capacity to do the same.

The rules worked because women had something to lose. The minute they had nothing to lose they started breaking the rules. Its not that she is a low quality woman, its that the environment you are playing the game in is a low quality environment.

Either change the environment or change the way you play the game. Or continue to delude yourself into thinking that there are "high quality women" and continue to see yourself and people you know getting burned when they cant deliver everything she hoped for.

Yes - that's why I say women are hyper-sensitive to their environment. If it's a low quality environment that allows women to get away with much - you can bet your money they will see how much they can get away with.

Yes - screw the rules that society promulgates. Screw the fact that she *expects* you to play by certain rules. In the end of the day, YOU are the creator of your values and rules - and you can damn well reject the *rules* that others (especially girls) try to impose on you.

Repped the whole post

 

[Tictac]

When you have to ask "what kind of person" is capable of this, you haven't yet realized that ANYONE is capable of this. Some more than others, obviously, but only a fool thinks that HIS girl is "above" that.

I do now know this. But that does not answer the question. When your own short-term needs overtake your mind, you’re just an animal. And we are animals. We are also more.

It sounds to me like you are blaming the man for your wife's indiscretions.

No. I’m just saying that if you know, you’re a lowlife.

It has been my experience and the experience of other men I know that in almost every case, it is the married woman who is the aggressor.

Who’s the aggressor is not important. I acknowledge that, at minimum, my wife chose this. The question is, are you a man? If a man is someone that will stick his d*** in anything with no regard to consequences, then he has no standards. Any talk of being anything other than a mindless brute if that’s okay is moot. Homo sapiens did not get to the top of the food chain this way and won’t stay there if that’s the way we’re going. Humans may be led by their genetics and instincts but they are a long way from ‘all’ or even ‘most’.

Chicks are the ones who blame the other party for ruining a relationship. Fact of the matter is, your wife was SOLELY responsible for the damage caused to your family.

Absolutely! Their decision (first hers, then his) had nothing to do with me. But her solely responsible? Hardly.

I would even go so far as to say that he did you a favor. Now you KNOW your wife. Before, you didn't.

Yes.

I know it is comforting to think that the mating game should be a fair deal for everyone who puts forth the effort to "do their part", but nothing could be further from the truth. It is actually the highest stakes, most cut-throat form of human interaction that exists. There is a BIOLOGICAL REASON why people are motivated to cheat. Unfortunately in this situation you were the one who got the raw end of the deal.

See above. If this is ‘all’, humanity is doomed. For six years, I was a combat soldier and frequently in environments where the stakes were far higher than a piece of ass and ‘cut-throat’ was no metaphor. And I behaved in a way consistent with that. I have the proof, I am alive. I did that because I (then believed) that I was defending a way of life where savage arts could be moderated for a common good. Again, humans are not run solely by genetic programming. That is why I have a code and live by it. If we’re to go back to the logic of survival of the fittest, fine. I’m trained and experienced. You do not want your world to go there. Its ugly.

I am informed by 'society' (whatever that is) as to how to live with and among others. And I am led led by genetics and evolution. But I am not ruled by either. If you are you are controlled by either or both of these phantoms, you are not a human being. If ruled by society, you are nothing more than an ant in a colony. If you're ruled by genetics, you have no capactiy for thought. If that's how you justify your behavior, good luck with that. Neither you nor your society will do well for very long.

So the responsibility falls squarely on the woman IF SHE LIES, but the man shares the blame if he is aware of the marriage?

Yes.

Understand something- the man doesn't owe you ANYTHING. HE isn't wrecking a family, the WIFE is. HE has no accountability, and is not a "lesser" man for taking advantage of a sexual opportunity.

This is narcissistic tautology. Yes, she chose. So did he, and with foreknowledge. In my world, he is not a man. She is worthy of neither me nor our children. Less than 100 years ago, I could have killed them both and never seen the inside of a prison.
Sexual opportunity is everywhere. So are opportunities to take whatever you want whether earned or not. With no standards, values or expectations, there is no civilization. I do not want to re-enter the world of the barbarian. Been there, done that. We are accountable to each other or we are nothing.

Just goes to show that it isn't just the chicks who grew up in broken homes that engage in improper behavior. The floodgates are open for even "normal" women to partake of their carnal desires, despite a decent upbringing.

Sad, true and for many reasons. But we all choose, sometimes badly but not without consequence. We learn too. I’m a different person now. You here are a part of my learning for which I am grateful.

My code is my own. Without one, I don’t know how to live and question how others might pretend to do so.

I have found my freedom in an unfree world. It flows from my standards, values and expectations.

Where is yours?

Fidelity, Courage, Love,
Tictac

 

[STR8UP]

I have found my freedom in an unfree world. It flows from my standards, values and expectations.

Where is yours?

Fidelity, Courage, Love,
Tictac

I think you are disconnected from reality.

You say that "society is doomed", yet manipulation, backstabbing, and infidelity have been common since the dawn of time.

You are simply falling into the trap of believing that you need to be "above" all of that, and that you are somehow a "better" person for it.

You deny your inherent self-interest. You see yourself as a noble warrior. When you DO slip up, you rationalize, just like the rest of us.

 

[trent81]

Why are you guys over analyzing this?

I fuvked a married woman and you know what she told me?

I AM HORNY.

I married him when I was young, I am looking for a different type of man now.

I want something different, I hate him for making me cry all these years.

He neglected me.

THIS IS NOT ROCKET SCIENCE. HERE IS WHY WOMEN CHEAT;

SOMETIMES SHE IS A whovre
or
SOMETIMES SHE DOESN'T GET WHAT SHE WANT'S AT HOME SO SHE VENTURES.

It's up to the man to 1) put up with it 2) leave 3) kill her.

Choose wisely. **** happens. No need to over analyze this. Sometimes **** doesn't work out. But let's turn the coin around. Let's say the man cheated; 20 bucks says she is attracted to you more than before.

WOMEN WANT THINGS THEY CANNOT HAVE OR KEEP SOMETHING THEY ARE AFRAID OF LOSING.

 

[ThunderMaverick]

I'm in STR8's corner when he says it's absolutely NOT the man outside of the marriage's fault that the woman cheated. It absolves a percentage of the responsibility of the woman's move and puts it on the guy who she had a choice to sleep with.

She had the choice of breaking a vow and a promise: the man who f**ked her did NOT make a verbal agreement and sign a paper saying "this half is yours, this half is mine. OH, AND I promise to be true and faithful to you"

The man has no obligation to be loyal to the wife OR the husband; there's no ring on his finger.

The point is, the guy wouldn't have fu*ked her if she didn't spread her legs and break the commitment to her husband.

No one held a gun to her head. In my opinion, when you're married you can't make a move without that S.O. When you're single you don't have to do anything for anyone. You don't agree to another person's demands to be faithful when you don't agree to being lawfully exclusive.

 

[Desert Fox]

this whole thread makes me cry on the inside... :'(

 

[Hooligan Harry]

Why are you guys over analyzing this?

I fuvked a married woman and you know what she told me?

I AM HORNY.

I married him when I was young, I am looking for a different type of man now.

I want something different, I hate him for making me cry all these years.

He neglected me.

THIS IS NOT ROCKET SCIENCE. HERE IS WHY WOMEN CHEAT;

SOMETIMES SHE IS A whovre
or
SOMETIMES SHE DOESN'T GET WHAT SHE WANT'S AT HOME SO SHE VENTURES.

It's up to the man to 1) put up with it 2) leave 3) kill her.

Choose wisely. **** happens. No need to over analyze this. Sometimes **** doesn't work out. But let's turn the coin around. Let's say the man cheated; 20 bucks says she is attracted to you more than before.

WOMEN WANT THINGS THEY CANNOT HAVE OR KEEP SOMETHING THEY ARE AFRAID OF LOSING.

When do we listen to the emotional rationalisations women make and take it as blunt truth? When the rationalisation is the version of "truth" that appeals to us the most.

She did not make a commitment to herself. She made a commitment to her husband. Which means that DESPITE

1) Being horny
2) being bored
3) him making her cry

her commitment to him, and indirectly a commitment she made to herself, is that she would not stray. That was part of the agreement, agreed to before God (im an Athiest, but still) him, her family and closest friends. Her commitment should supersede her own requirements and desires. This is what a commitment is to a partnership, be it marriage or business. When it becomes about the individual instead of the unit, IT IS ****ED.

She does it because there are no repercussions for her actions. She gets the house, the kids, half the assets and she gets her alimony check and the sympathy of the world for having to remain in a loveless marriage. And she sets it up under the blanket of security that the marriage provided.

Unlike the man who gets caught ****ing hookers. He is a pig for refusing to stick it out in a loveless marriage and has to accept the fact that his indiscretion will cost him his kids, house, half his assets and the respect of his friends and family.

There are reasons to analyze this. The better you understand something the easier it is to make sure you are aware of the potential outcomes and what would be required of you as a man to make sure it does not happen to you. Understanding the dynamic of interpersonal relationships is important. I would think that at our age the need to "game and sarge" would no longer be the main crux of our lives.

I dont fvck married women. There are enough single women out there looking for ****. I am not that hard up that I need to tap every piece of ass that comes my way, especially the trouble that comes with ****ing another mans wife. Why the hell do I want another mans scraps? I dont quite understand why any man with options has the need to pursue married women. Are they THAT hard up for ass?

If I am looking to get my end off, there are boatloads of 20 something party *****s looking to get railed. They are a "low quality woman" just like the married ***** would be.

I wont **** fatties and I wont **** engaged/married women. It would mean I would have to compromise my own character and values. I dont approve of women who cheat on their husbands, children and families. Im not going to encourage it, just like I would not buy crack for a fvcking drug addict.

 

[ketostix]

When do we listen to the emotional rationalisations women make and take it as blunt truth? When the rationalisation is the version of "truth" that appeals to us the most.

She did not make a commitment to herself. She made a commitment to her husband. Which means that DESPITE

1) Being horny
2) being bored
3) him making her cry

her commitment to him, and indirectly a commitment she made to herself, is that she would not stray. That was part of the agreement, agreed to before God (im an Athiest, but still) him, her family and closest friends. Her commitment should supersede her own requirements and desires. This is what a commitment is to a partnership, be it marriage or business. When it becomes about the individual instead of the unit, IT IS ****ED.

She does it because there are no repercussions for her actions. She gets the house, the kids, half the assets and she gets her alimony check and the sympathy of the world for having to remain in a loveless marriage. And she sets it up under the blanket of security that the marriage provided.

Unlike the man who gets caught ****ing hookers. He is a pig for refusing to stick it out in a loveless marriage and has to accept the fact that his indiscretion will cost him his kids, house, half his assets and the respect of his friends and family.

There are reasons to analyze this. The better you understand something the easier it is to make sure you are aware of the potential outcomes and what would be required of you as a man to make sure it does not happen to you. Understanding the dynamic of interpersonal relationships is important. I would think that at our age the need to "game and sarge" would no longer be the main crux of our lives.

I dont fvck married women. There are enough single women out there looking for ****. I am not that hard up that I need to tap every piece of ass that comes my way, especially the trouble that comes with ****ing another mans wife. Why the hell do I want another mans scraps? I dont quite understand why any man with options has the need to pursue married women. Are they THAT hard up for ass?

If I am looking to get my end off, there are boatloads of 20 something party *****s looking to get railed. They are a "low quality woman" just like the married ***** would be.

I wont **** fatties and I wont **** engaged/married women. It would mean I would have to compromise my own character and values. I dont approve of women who cheat on their husbands, children and families. Im not going to encourage it, just like I would not buy crack for a fvcking drug addict.

That's pretty much how i see it, Hooligan Harry. knowingly fvcking a married woman to me is no different than being a party to a business deal where your coming in to short changing and weasling out another business partner. It might be how things are commonly done now but it's not the way it should be.

 

[STR8UP]

I dont fvck married women. There are enough single women out there looking for ****. I am not that hard up that I need to tap every piece of ass that comes my way, especially the trouble that comes with ****ing another mans wife. Why the hell do I want another mans scraps?

1) Married women are often LESS trouble than supposedly "single" women
2) ALL women are some other guy's "scraps"

I dont quite understand why any man with options has the need to pursue married women. Are they THAT hard up for ass?

Every married women I have fukked, or any of my friends have fukked, have been the aggressor. It's a free piece of ass. No pursuit involved. That's the point. It's put out there on a silver platter, no B.S., no ASD, just raw sex.

The last one I fukked was on vacation. Friend of a friend. Got the vibe but didn't escalate. Hey, she's MARRIED....right?

Get a call at 2:30am after they leave my place, inviting me to come over cause married chick "wants to make out with you". I had initially gone home like a good boy, and it was little miss nurse (wife of a cop) who was aggressively pursuing ME. Second time we hooked up I got it all on tape. Guess who first mentioned making a video?

And they generally don't get attached like single chicks do. Bonus.

I have a friend. The epitome of "alpha". Knocks down a boatload of cash every year. Married with kids. Cheats like a mofo. Prefers chicks with husbands of boyfriends. Less drama. Both looking for the same thing. The single ones get clingy and cause trouble.

It's one big underground orgy out there. You can participate or sit on the sidelines.

I for one, am in.

 

[STR8UP]

That's pretty much how i see it, Hooligan Harry. knowingly fvcking a married woman to me is no different than being a party to a business deal where your coming in to short changing and weasling out another business partner. It might be how things are commonly done now but it's not the way it should be.

Wayyyy off base. Unless you have social ties to the guy, you can't make any kind of comparison to "weasling out" a business partner.

The obligations rest on those who commit to them. Third parties have no responsibility, especially in the mating game.

 

[Hooligan Harry]

Just because they are easy does not mean they are worth sticking your **** in. If someone else is going to tap that ass, so be it. They are free to do so. To be honest, I am not going to condemn them for it either. Its the way things are these days and its the result of the way society as a whole as shifted. But to buy into their emotional justifications for cheating is not on. Im not saying dont do the deed, just be man enough to admit that what you are doing is wrong and you cannot absolve yourself off all guilt. Its not a small transgression IF you do believe that women should remain faithful in marriage. Its a massive one. If you dont believe in the concept of fidelity then go nuts. Im not going to judge anyone.

I believe that women should be faithful in marriage and as a result I am not going to sleep with married women. No matter how hot or how easy she may be. Unless she is a swinger it is not going to happen unless I get duped into it.

I hate to give these married women the gratification of knowing that "they still have it" though. I know what value I bring to the table too and letting her know that she landed me gives her a little more credit then she deserves. As arrogant as it sounds, I dont quite see why she should have those feel good feelings I will provide when she is not worth the **** on my shoe.

A party girl or some tramp at a bar is a slightly less emotional **** than a married women is ever going to be. Women cheat for emotional reasons as much as they do physical, if not more. Which means that by sleeping with a married women she may not be clingy but the decision to sleep with you is an emotional one still and one you took part in.

Bottom line is that the average 32 year old married harlot has nothing on the 26 year old party tramp. They are both ****ed in the head and they are both more trouble than they are worth. I just choose to rather stick my **** in the party tramps hole, normally because they are hotter anyway. At least she was not cheating on her husband, and at least I am not helping her break an oath she took in front of everyone she knows. That can be some other Joe. The party ho will get there one day I am sure, and by that time I am hopefully fvcking her little sister.

I can understand your friends motivations and needs for secrecy. As a single man I dont have to worry about keeping a wife in the dark. Which means that as a single man I can really find almost no real value in sleeping with a married woman. Why do I need to be discreet?

In the same breath, I dont condemn men who cheat on their wives when they dont put out or because she let herself go. The hypocrisy that is Hooligan Harry knows full well that he will cheat on his wife one day. I dont even care how bad that sounds. There are different rules for men. Thats the way it goes. Ill work my arse off and give her everything she wants. Ill make sure my kids are well looked after. Ill treat her well. But I am going to fvck other women because I know her sex drive wont match mine. Her need for security and stability will be provided for. If she cant meet my sexual needs, I am looking elsewhere. Ill keep up my end of the bargain.

The reason why I will settle abroad is because i simply do not fit in here anymore. I expect my wife to be faithful and stay at home looking after the kids. I am going to have a mistress or two. I wont tolerate constant, bi polar irrational mood swings or bull**** either. Its the norm in most non western countries for successful men and I am of the belief that it is the most likely way to ensure that you have a successful marriage.

That probably sounds pretty ****ed up to any Brit, Yank or Aussie I am sure. I have just lived abroad long enough to know that their way is better for both parties.

 

[trent81]

My married woman pursued me extremely aggresively. She pursued me till I almost said "fuvk man, back off". She told me she was seperated, he had signed the papers. She told me (pursued me for three months) that all she ever wanted was to be held and hugged and told compliments. She spent easter, 4th of july, haloween, thanksgiving, christmas, valentines day, with me.......I figured, hey they are divorced!!!!! It turns out, he was purposely out of town. She went back to him. It's been almost nine months. Haven't heard from her. I started having feelings, thinking, damn maybe she does want to be with me. But quickly realized it was for her selfish means.




UNLESS I NEVER SEE HER TOMORROW MORNING (MEANING SHE IS AN OUT OF TOWNER OR SOMETHING). I WILL NEVER GO NEAR ONE, EVEN IF SHE COMES OVER AND SAYS TAKE ME, LIKE MY MARRIED GIRL DID. IF I KNOW HER FRIENDS OR SHE DOES NOT LIVE MORE THAN 150 MILES AWAY, ,,,,,NO WAY......I HAVE TO LIVE WITH THIS THE REST OF MY LIFE. WHEN I GET MARRIED, I HAVE TO THINK THERE IS ANOTHER "ME" OUT THERE. IT'S NOT A GOOD FEELING. DON'T DO IT, UNLESS YOU NEVER, EVER, SEE HER AGAIN.

 

[Tictac]

You are simply falling into the trap of believing that you need to be "above" all of that, and that you are somehow a "better" person for it.

You deny your inherent self-interest. You see yourself as a noble warrior. When you DO slip up, you rationalize, just like the rest of us.

I am above nothing, nothing is above me. I am better than no one, no one is better than me. I am the person I choose to be as best I can. Noble warrior? Depends upon how you want to define 'noble'. But warrior, yes.

I make mistakes, lots of them. I rationalize. As you say, its human. And I am ruthlessly self-interested and quite proud of it.

Trent has the best perspective on this thread. I just go that other step and won't 'go there' if I know. I don't want to be treated that way and so don't treat others that way. Simple, easy to do. And personal.

I like a large part of Harry's take too. But committment is a two-way street. If she shouldn't cheat, neither should I.

We are overanalyzing this. But its an emotional thing to have happen to you and the damage field is large.

For me, I just won't have it in my life. I've lived (imperfectly) in a 'no excuses' world for a long time. I get along pretty well there. I think I'll stay.

Tictac

 

[Colossus]

C'mon man. there is no right and wrong when it comes to this stuff...

And THAT is the difference between me and you. But I guess the world needs a Batman and a Joker, a Jedi and a Sith.

A word on morality:

It's important to note the difference between immoral (conflicting with held moral principles), and amoral (neither moral nor immoral). You or I might view a woman's behavior as immoral, but in her mind she may not even have a moral tenet that governs such behavior. She is just acting according to her impulses. This is how and why we qualify, rigorously.

I am not part of the club that believes convictions will always bend under natural imperatives, nor do I think morality is not a sham. It is a set of personal convictions. Guys see the contradictions in people's moral codes and make the incorrect conclusion that all morality is is a social construct with the purpose of serving society. To some extent, it is. But my morality is still going to differ from someone else's, or even society's collective benchmarks. For example, I don't think taking steroids is immoral, or even unethical in many cases. But most of society does. Now I didn't create this belief just so I could take roids guilt-free, but because I examined it critically and deemed that steroid use is someone's personal prerogative and should not be regulated. But that's just my morality, and I'm not going to impose it on folks who think steroids are always wrong.

Similarly with fvcking married women. This is a personal conviction. I don't hold some Disneyland ideal that by acting "righteously" I will somehow insure myself against being cheated on. I'm not saying I am ABOVE it, but I have actively chosen not to fvck married women, EVEN if they are the aggressor, because 1) I dont need to, 2) I dont want to be a part of someone else's wrecked life. You can sing yourself all the lullabies you want but if you knowingly choose to screw a married woman you are an active participant in fvcking someone else's life up. Yes, I know, it was her decision to screw you. But it was also YOUR decision to put your d!ck inside her. You could have screwed someone else.

I could really give less of a sh!t if you--Str8up, KX, or anyone else fvcks a married woman every day of the week. It's your life, live as you see fit. I know that most men will given the chance, and I know FULL WELL that most of my friends and many of my acquaintances would absolutely fvck my girlfriend if they were presented with the opportunity. Does that make them less of a friend? Not really, because they haven't acted on it. I also know that I have a d!ck and balls and I'm not immune to the temptations a man can experience.

I still hold that one of the most reliable ways to predict how a woman will treat you is to look at her parents and the dynamics of her family interaction. You don't have to take my word for it, do a cursory search of the sociological literature. I can also attest to this from A-1 personal experience.

That does NOT mean you have 100% insurance against her cheating. There is no such thing, despite the words you put in the mouths of us "moralists". You clowns conveniently look at a guy like Tictac and say "See!?! He chose a wife from a great family background and she still cheated on him. Your tenets are crumbling!! Bwahaha!!!"

I think generally when a woman cheats it is because some need--usually emotional---is not being met. The choice is 110% hers, but the man usually has a part he played in that situation coming to pass. It does not make him responsible for her actions, but more often than not he has something to be accountable for, whatever that is. Maybe he selected poorly, maybe he lost the frame, maybe he neglected her, mistreated her, or maybe, as sometimes happens, the universe just sh!t on him that day.

 

[STR8UP]

Harry, you make good points.

In another time and place I might feel the same way, but society has degenerated into one big free for all fukk fest and at this point it's useless trying to be one of the small handful of people who stand up for something. You're better off just making the best of it and taking advantages of situations that are presented to you.

For the record, I absolutely believe that women should remain faithful if they make a commitment to a man. But I am under no illusion that this is the case even half of the time. So my take is that I have no qualms with sleeping with anyone I am attracted to, regardless of relationship status, if I deem the rewards to be justifiable. If I'm in a relationship and some dude fukks my chick, I walk the other way without a word. It's just the nature of the game.

Sometimes you pay into that insurance fund and sometimes you cash out. I got tired of paying in and watching everyone else around me cashing out at my expense, leaving me battered and beaten. Nowadays I don't take things so seriously and it is working out much better.

 

[Tictac]

A word on morality:

It's important to note the difference between immoral (conflicting with held moral principles), and amoral (neither moral nor immoral). You or I might view a woman's behavior as immoral, but in her mind she may not even have a moral tenet that governs such behavior. She is just acting according to her impulses. This is how and why we qualify, rigorously.

I am not part of the club that believes convictions will always bend under natural imperatives, nor do I think morality is not a sham. It is a set of personal convictions. Guys see the contradictions in people's moral codes and make the incorrect conclusion that all morality is is a social construct with the purpose of serving society. To some extent, it is. But my morality is still going to differ from someone else's, or even society's collective benchmarks. For example, I don't think taking steroids is immoral, or even unethical in many cases. But most of society does. Now I didn't create this belief just so I could take roids guilt-free, but because I examined it critically and deemed that steroid use is someone's personal prerogative and should not be regulated. But that's just my morality, and I'm not going to impose it on folks who think steroids are always wrong.

Similarly with fvcking married women. This is a personal conviction. I don't hold some Disneyland ideal that by acting "righteously" I will somehow insure myself against being cheated on. I'm not saying I am ABOVE it, but I have actively chosen not to fvck married women, EVEN if they are the aggressor, because 1) I dont need to, 2) I dont want to be a part of someone else's wrecked life. You can sing yourself all the lullabies you want but if you knowingly choose to screw a married woman you are an active participant in fvcking someone else's life up. Yes, I know, it was her decision to screw you. But it was also YOUR decision to put your d!ck inside her. You could have screwed someone else.

I could really give less of a sh!t if you--Str8up, KX, or anyone else fvcks a married woman every day of the week. It's your life, live as you see fit. I know that most men will given the chance, and I know FULL WELL that most of my friends and many of my acquaintances would absolutely fvck my girlfriend if they were presented with the opportunity. Does that make them less of a friend? Not really, because they haven't acted on it. I also know that I have a d!ck and balls and I'm not immune to the temptations a man can experience.

I still hold that one of the most reliable ways to predict how a woman will treat you is to look at her parents and the dynamics of her family interaction. You don't have to take my word for it, do a cursory search of the sociological literature. I can also attest to this from A-1 personal experience.

That does NOT mean you have 100% insurance against her cheating. There is no such thing, despite the words you put in the mouths of us "moralists". You clowns conveniently look at a guy like Tictac and say "See!?! He chose a wife from a great family background and she still cheated on him. Your tenets are crumbling!! Bwahaha!!!"

I think generally when a woman cheats it is because some need--usually emotional---is not being met. The choice is 110% hers, but the man usually has a part he played in that situation coming to pass. It does not make him responsible for her actions, but more often than not he has something to be accountable for, whatever that is. Maybe he selected poorly, maybe he lost the frame, maybe he neglected her, mistreated her, or maybe, as sometimes happens, the universe just sh!t on him that day.[/QUOTE]

Colossus,

Wll reasoned and stated. My moral code is my moral code. I will not (and cannot) force other to accept it.

Neither is my code quid pro quo. You are right. It won't protect me from the actions of another or the chaos of a random world. Its simply the way I choose to live and that includes who I live with and without - friends, wives, colleagues. I choose it along with the benefits and consequences that come with it. I am happier and more productive with it than without it, including its (sometimes heavy) costs.

I am not a moralist. We are though responsibe for our actions and their effects. When those effects include blowing up a family, I think you're a wanker if you proceed. And I don't tolerate that in a mate, with friends or anyone else.

I did lose frame and I am paying for it. Not from mistreatment though. Maybe from neglect and focusing on things I thought important that she did not.

That's why I'm here. To learn and do those things that might now lead to more of what I want, not less for me and for those important to me, principally my children.

Tictac

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

You know, whenever we go into these debates about infidelity (albeit usually from the male perspective), and it becomes an immoral / amoral / moralist ménage à trois, I always see the code in the Matrix and wonder, what is the greater moral imperative; to remain faithful to your morally obligated commitment with your spouse in spite of a loveless, passionless, sexless partner, or to break that commitment in order to pursue the obligation and commitment you owe yourself as "superior" Man deserving of a better "quality" partner?

What has moral priority, a commitment to yourself versus a commitment to marriage? You see it's easy to wave the flag of self-righteousness when the issue is a right vs. wrong issue. It's much more difficult when the question is right vs. right. I have no doubt that all the answers to this will be entirely circumstantial, rationalized twistings in the wind, and maybe that's what decides for you, but think about it for a moment in the terms of what one must sacrifice for the other.

 

[Mr. Me]

>> I'm seeing more men who are p-ssy whipped and doing everything but "neglecting" women and are being discarded like old news papers, what's worse is these women who complain about a lack of communication aren't saying anything to these men, they're just out there branch swinging like ninjas in the jungle.>>

Becoming a submissive male who "gives her everything she wants" loses a woman's devotion over time just as neglecting her would, and that's probably why those men who do not otherwise neglect their wives are being dumped.

>> but don't lose sight of the fact that people can and do change (circumstantially). That's what causes "complacency", believing you can just sit back and relax because you're with a "quality" person.>>

I think guys let their guard down because when they land a girl it seems to them that the job is done, over, mission accomplished, they have her. You probably realize that once you have a chick exclusively, you've only just started, you have to be able to keep them around.

So while for previous generations divorce wasn't an option, there were unhappy marriages, discontented spouses and discreet affairs. Today, same stuff goes on plus more, and it means we have to step up our game.

>> What has moral priority, a commitment to yourself versus a commitment to marriage?>>

Good question. I'd submit that if a partner becomes "loveless, passionless, sexless", as you put it in your post, then that partner has breached the marriage commitment. You didn't sign on for marriage to have her become a sexless roommate or to give you strife everyday. I know the idea is "for better or for worse", but I think that's misapplied when it comes to what's considered as "worse". Certainly if a spouse becomes abusive, that's worse, but you wouldn't be expected to remain in an abusive relationship. And if a partner cheats, that's worse, but you wouldn't be expected to remain in the relationship, in fact, it's been breached, so there is no further onus on the innocent partner to remain faithful and stay. How else may a relationship be breached? I'd say it can be breached by one partner becoming sexless or loveless. It's best to get out at that point, it doesn't serve either party well to stay, if you're both free then you both have an opportunity to find a better, more suitable, life companion.