Juggler Workshop Review & Lay Report (VERY LONG)

[Don-Wan Kenobi]

Originally posted by Liz
PDX,
I had written a post telling you that all of this sounds pathetic, and that anyone could score with a two-bit ho, but it didn't post.
Here's the idea though.
Even hot chicks can still be skanks. If this chick slept with you after just meeting you than she is indeed a skanky ho.

You're saying that any woman who sleeps with a man after just meeting him is a skanky ho. Anyone can score with a skanky ho. And anyone who scores with a skanky ho is pathetic.

In your own words, this is a "How to score with a skanky ho" post aimed at all of the members of this forum looking to be more pathetic.

I don't have a problem with that. I'm not one to preach morals or to disagree with those belonging to anyone else.

However, I do not agree that just anyone can score with a woman, even if she is dispositioned to entertain the thought of intercourse with an attractive stranger (I'm sure this represents just a small minority of women). I think anyone who makes this sort of attack on Nick's game is undercutting all of the effort and strategy he pours into his seductions.

It's hard work. I've tried my hand at sarging (I admit to some half-hearted attempts. I am far more accustomed to and successful when it comes to ritual dating). No woman will jump right on top of you by virtue of the fact you are a man. You make it sound a LOT easier than it actually is and it's almost insulting in light of the fact that this is an area where you (and probably most of the male dissenters) have NO EXPERIENCE.

Is it fair for you to make these sort of... assumptions? Well, for you it is and so there is no use arguing that it is not.

However, from where I'm coming from, this information is what I need and I do not consider myself pathetic. I can attest to how difficult it is to approach, establish a reasonable rapport, and close with a pretty girl at a club, a bar, restaurant, classroom, anywhere. I'm not blessed with the genetics of Brad Pitt or Arnold Schwarzeneggar so I need confidence, game, and strategy... whether I'm trying to open with a woman I've just met or I'm trying to close with a woman I've been "dating." Posts like this one are extremely helpful. And pathetic are my friends who laugh at this kind of advice, never make an ounce of an effort to change their "strategies," and end up broken-hearted or lonely time after time ater time.

DWK

 

[Nicholas Hill]

Guys,

as much as I would love to stick around I really can't while I'm in Uni - I have too much work to do.

I will say this, however. If you think an article should be in the Bible, you really should use the suggestion feature. That damn thing took two hours to code.

There's no chance I can do anything about it until the start of April, but while it's up there, its going to be considered and probably added. People will also get curious, as they are the first set of links that appear before the main bible.

Nick

 

[il_duce]

I'm still wondering what a Statement Of Intent is.

 

[Drew]

Originally posted by il_duce
I'm still wondering what a Statement Of Intent is.

Statement of Interest might be easier to understand.

 

[SexPDX]

Great post, DWK.

I confess. I am addicted to this thread! Maybe it's just because I am a perversely narcissistic bastard who loves that this thread is about me. I don't know.

Originally posted by Don-Wan Kenobi

However, I do not agree that just anyone can score with a woman, even if she is dispositioned to entertain the thought of intercourse with an attractive stranger (I'm sure this represents just a small minority of women). I think anyone who makes this sort of attack on Nick's game is undercutting all of the effort and strategy he pours into his seductions.

It's hard work. I've tried my hand at sarging (I admit to some half-hearted attempts. I am far more accustomed to and successful when it comes to ritual dating). No woman will jump right on top of you by virtue of the fact you are a man. You make it sound a LOT easier than it actually is and it's almost insulting in light of the fact that this is an area where you (and probably most of the male dissenters) have NO EXPERIENCE.

Notice how DWK emphasizes the importance of experience in what is being discussed. Notice how he points out that he has been in the field doing this himself and knows what is invovled and some of the challenges one faces. Regardless of his skill level, this post is coming from an man who HAS BEEN IN THE GAME.

I am starting to think this forum is not actually for guys who are IN THE GAME. I am starting to think it's for guys to comiserate about their problems with women with other guys who have the same problems. I am starting to think that it's a place for some people to get their jollies off by talking like they know more than they do by parrotting "DJ" truisms. I know many guys like my posts. But seriously, guys, if you are not IN THE GAME my posts are NOT helping you.

I know this forum is big on the idea of not making women a major focus of your life. That's a good concept from a number of perspectives but it does bypass a simple FACT: pick up is a skill, skills take practice, the average guy cannot do pick ups. Sure the average guy can do get a good amount of phone numbers if he works up the confidence to approach, fluff non-directionally and ask for the number. That's not what I am talking about here. I don't want phone numbers if it's not given to me because the girl is already anticipating future contact with me before she even hands it to me. To be honest, I DON'T get many phone numbers. But every number I DO get is just about a sure lay.

And I am sure many people get the idea that I have sacrificed many other things in my life over the last year in order to improve my skills in the game. This is correct and it's a sacrifice I am prepared to make. It's a personal choice. NEVER ONCE have I recommended that anyone model SexPDX without reservation. Take what you learn from me that helps you do what YOU want to do and leave behind that which you don't want. This is called SHARING INFORMATION AND EXPERIENCES. I would like to see more people look at it that way.

Getting a complete stranger you approach on the street to be REALLY into you and if that stranger is a woman, cultivating feelings of attraction, is a tall order for the "average guy" which my critics say I am no better than at this. My critics are NOT in the game. DWK, on the other hand, IS or HAS BEEN.

vectorz points out that I had logistics on my side in the pick up detailed in this report. He is correct. However, to even IMPLICITY suggest that that is all I needed for this lay is a comment coming from someone who is NOT IN THE GAME or at least not in the way I am.

Originally posted by Don-Wan Kenobi

Posts like this one are extremely helpful. And pathetic are my friends who laugh at this kind of advice, never make an ounce of an effort to change their "strategies," and end up broken-hearted or lonely time after time ater time.

DWK, send me a PM or an e-mail and I will point you in the right direction if you are in the game FOR REAL and want to improve. I am seriously considering confining my posting to private forums and to a lesser extent mASF until more people here get in the game the way they have to be to improve their skills and start demonstrating a willingness to LEARN SOMETHING from each other.

-PDX

 

[vectorz]

Originally posted by SexPDX
vectorz points out that I had logistics on my side in the pick up detailed in this report. He is correct. However, to even IMPLICITY suggest that that is all I needed for this lay is a comment coming from someone who is NOT IN THE GAME or at least not in the way I am.

Ok, this makes plenty of sense. You're saying I'm right but I don't get a say because of what you assume. Terrific.. let's get this guy into law school. He's brilliant. Get over yourself, you insecure creature you.

 

[Bungo Pony]

Originally posted by SexPDX
I know this forum is big on the idea of not making women a major focus of your life. That's a good concept from a number of perspectives but it does bypass a simple FACT: pick up is a skill, skills take practice, the average guy cannot do pick ups

I'd like to add something to this statement. This forum is all about improving one's life (mostly men). However, women are a major part of any man's life whether we like it or not. The fact is that many men fail when it comes to landing a woman. They don't know how to deal with an attractive woman in their presence. That's why this forum touches on women an incredible amount. However, in the process of learning how to deal with women, you pick up a lot of very good skills along the way such as initiating conversation with a total stranger, and building rapport with that person. The points SexPDX made in this thread are a great way to achieve these, and are also quite new ideas to this forum. They are excellent to add to one's game, who has overcome the shyness of approaching a woman he does not know.

 

[awake]

I was reading this nice post, but got tired after seeing such stupid debate.

What is the best way to deal with this kind of debate?

Well, I assume that the DJs have read books about personal interactions, if not you should. Go ahead and read some of those, Lieberman's books are good.

Obviously those attacking pdx are really immature, and don't get the scope of this post.
SexPDX wrote a great post, but IMHO he is missing not game (it is clear for me that he has it) but the ability to argue and defend his points. Just stay calm dude, and ignore such stupid replies you got here.

When you show you lost composture or got mad, you are giving away your control, and such nor you nor your haters will get any credibility.

Why try to hard to defend your position?, your position is clear and most of us get it and agree with it.

This is not a forum to brag about how many girls you can fvck or what is your success percentile (success on what standards, for a guy saying hi is success, for another a threesome), that is why you don't read often statements as "I have fvcked 67 girls".

This is my take: the haters don't have anything else to do but attack this kind of posts because they have no game.
And if you lose composture while being attacked, then, you know your game is not complete and there are some areas of your life that you need to improve fast.

 

[prosemont]

Great post PDX. Congrats on your effort. Also, know that some of us are reading these posts and find them useful, but have no comments other than "nice post dude" and so don't post at all. Your posts are not in vain. I personally have had almost no time because of work requirements, so I may reread this post again in about a month when I get back out into the field.

I don't know what's up with the metacontextual comments on here questioning credibility, etc. All of that completely misses the point. The point is precisely to glean what you can from a quality post like this and leave the rest. If none of it can help you, then simply move on. Geesh.

It's almost like someone reading Dale Carnegie or Anthony Robbins and, instead of learning something, pointing out how because Dale Carnegie made some enemies his entire book on making friends becomes suspect. Or pointing out some perceived flaw that Anthony Robbins has and therefore saying that his book is useless and has no credibility. Do you guys know how idiotic that sounds?

A couple of quick comments, though, which may be useful for others:

--the shear time and energy and the fluency attained in sarging all weekend will improve your skills. Think of it as getting into sarging shape.

--If you consistently approach with a decent product and marketing, you will get laid. Or ....... for you guys with the "morality issues," you will increase your opportunity to get to know, court, and eventually marry high quality women of your choice because you will have availed yourself of the ability to a. meet more women, and thus b. be better able to differentiate personalities and characteristics, and c. then be able select one that is right for YOU so that you can meet her parents and move towards a LTR.

--It is important to have a skilled third party review your body language and techniques. This can be a huge time saver in pointing out things that may have taken you years, if at all, to discover. A lot of this will be very individualized. PDX's talking with his hands up high or henpecking may be issues for him because he is relatively tall whereas they may not be issues for guys who aren't as tall. The point, again, is to have someone skilled review YOUR presentation.

--One more thing: I'm sure it's in your post somewhere, but this highlights the fact that people need to get OUTSIDE of their heads and try to look at their presentation as other's would see them.

I don't know how to put this into words exactly, but I think a lot of people go through this mental gyration when meeting and talking with women (or anyone) and they are stuck so deep in their own heads about what to say and do that in the meantime they are presenting horrible body language or are fumbling with words or miss what is actually being said to them so that their response is off-base, vague, inappropriate, or negative. Try to look at yourself and your presentation from the outside, as other's would see you, while at the same time mentally concentrating on her.

A lot of people think if they aren't concentrating on themselves and their own thoughts they won't know what to say or do, but quite the opposite happens actually. If you concentrate on her, you will almost automatically, fluently without even thinking about it, have material to fire back with. Just have enough faith in yourself that that is not a problem for you, and it will happen. If you are so concerned about yourself, though, you will be so bound up that you won't be able to respond at all or, at best, with weak presentation.

Kudos Nick.

 

[juggler]

I don't know about all this flame. It gives me a headache just thinking about reading all of it. But I do think that Womanizer's original question was a valid one though.

The bulk of making a connection and getting a woman is the middle game. Opening is easy, closing is easy. The middle is easy too and should be fun. But it is where the concentration of the sarge should be. It is the meat of the issue.

For the most part I wanted the workshop participants to get really good at the middle. Once you do that well the closing is really just an extension of the middle. (actually once you get really good it all becomes the same. No beginning, no middle, no end. It just is.) Sure the workshop participants did not close alot of girls but that is because I didn't let them. I pulled them out of good situations time and time again. The juggler method is highly geared to instant date and same day closes. # closes are very easy and not something we focus on unless that is the particiapants goals. We can't have guys just running off with every cute girl that gets into them

-Juggler

www.seductionarts.com

 

[Bungo Pony]

The juggler method is highly geared to instant date and same day closes. # closes are very easy and not something we focus on unless that is the particiapants goals.

Very interesting to hear from the one who developed the method and the purpose of it.

We can't have guys just running off with every cute girl that gets into them

Oops........ oh, you mean while the workshop is taking place, right?

 

[Chemistry]

Not bothered to read all the drama surroundin' the posts, but I read your initial posts last week and enjoyed the read...

 

[wheelin&dealin]

Juggler,

What clubs did you go to in Vancouver?

 

[vectorz]

Originally posted by juggler
... It is the meat of the issue.
For the most part I wanted the workshop participants to get really good at the middle...

If I read the workshop detail correctly, the meat|middle is basically body language, eliciting value via making statements vs questions. Anything else you could expand on how to 'make the middle more meaty'?

 

[anakin]

Bump!

Finally found the time to read this post and this is excellent stuff Nick. I think regarding the conversational techniques, I have been like this all along, although it was all purely subconscious, even before I came to this site. Reading this makes me understand to a greater depth what I have been doing and what mistakes I have made. The only issue was however that I am always inconsistent in my conversational skills based on my mood on that particular day.

Originally posted by SexPDX:
Also, it's good to demonstrate to potential targets by talking to non-targets in their vicinity that you are a confident person who is genuinely interested in people and who has no problem talking to a stranger.

Exactly. It also conveys that you are not ‘after’ girls and that you are a ‘genuine’ person.

I saw a girl in a club with white nail polish and I told her, "I like the way your nails glow under the black light." That opened really well, she was into me from the beginning.

LOL, that’s funny, cannot believe she fell for THAT… but women are incredibly vain, and I think you used this weakness to your advantage in the fact that you picked up on a small point which she spent time on (her nails) and praising that…

This was another example of intimidating body language for a person my size. Instead, Juggler said that the more intimate position I should move towards is hip-to-hip.”

This is one area where I disagree, if I understand this correctly (maybe in the US this can be pulled off, I don’t know, but rarely in Europe). To clarify, does that mean standing side-by-side or facing opposite to her? I raise this because I find that when you first meet, girls seem to prefer you opposite to them as opposed to you standing side-by-side (i.e. especially if you are sitting). Not only does the latter make it harder to communicate, but it’s more personal and girls you have just met may feel uncomfortable with that, unless you know them well. That is too direct.

While sitting beside a woman you are sarging it's also good to be turned at an angle that is towards her rather than straight ahead.”

.

This is of course the alternative, but doesn’t that come across as TOO aggressive when you first meet a girl? I prefer standing or sitting opposite to her.

Generating value by asking questions…very interesting…rarely have I tried this (and when it has, it’s been subconscious) ...but it makes me think…interesting point.

I think she was mainly just happy to be talking to a genuine person

THAT is INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT!! To be a genuine person, or to come across as one, together with the other traits is a very powerful ****tail.

I talked to the HB for a while after the interaction with AMOG and she did NOT mention that he was her BF. I think it's because he acted like such an ass that she was embarrassed to admit it.

Or the fact that he felt it was his moral responsibility to ‘protect’ the HB by making you less of a man by taking the juice…strange things happen when ppl are drunk!


I can recount to you guys the best cold pick up I have made, and it happened before I came to this site. This post makes me realise that I incorporated the above to the letter on that specific occasion, at a Uni conference, and it was just incredible. I have to add that when you approach, not only do you apply the DJ skills, but you must have a certain confidence, passion, enthusiasm and charm about your life that rubs off on to the girl. I was also making many statements about people and the world in general, together with my outlook, which she got very excited about. I never initiated any kino then however. That was probably the only flaw.

Nevertheless, it was as if the two of us blocked out everything around us and were just completely focused on eachother. I had her number after talking to her for a time I cannot quite remember (not more than 15-20 minutes), even though her boyfriend was also at the same conference, though not nearby at the time.

I picked up all her details, and she insisted on taking mine, I never capitalised on the situation those few years ago, because I stopped at wanting to go further, and it also made me realise, inevitably, that you have to strike whilst the iron is hot…especially since what girls may feel is different from one day to the next.

Great stuff PDX,


ANAKIN

 

[rbd]

Originally posted by SexPDX
DWK, send me a PM or an e-mail and I will point you in the right direction if you are in the game FOR REAL and want to improve. I am seriously considering confining my posting to private forums and to a lesser extent mASF until more people here get in the game the way they have to be to improve their skills and start demonstrating a willingness to LEARN SOMETHING from each other.

-PDX

SexPDX:

You shouldn't let the objections of a vocal minority sway your opinion this much. I'm sure there are A LOT of people who lurk here and will end up taking your techniques and giving them a spin.

Personally, I enjoy your posts and find the techniques useful. Spring break is over for me and this week I'm going out on my campus and approaching HBs trying to make only statements. I am giving what little game I have a 180degree turn, from the traditional DJing mentality (keep it focused on her) to the one you and others are advocating at this time, and I'm finding this angle meshes with who I am MUCH BETTER. Approaching is actually getting exciting!


Keep up the posting.

Robby

 

[rbd]

Re: Bump!

Originally posted by anakin
Finally found the time to read this post and this is excellent stuff Nick. I think regarding the conversational techniques, I have been like this all along, although it was all purely subconscious, even before I came to this site. Reading this makes me understand to a greater depth what I have been doing and what mistakes I have made. The only issue was however that I am always inconsistent in my conversational skills based on my mood on that particular day.

ANAKIN

Anakin, I absolutely agree here with everything you said. Sometimes it is so hard for me to be outgoing, while other times (i.e. just today) I'll walk into a grocery store, for example, with a pimp cane (well actually it was a flag pole that I got some store clerk to give to me and start joking around with women.

This is why it is so important to do all the things you can to maximise your mood. What I mean by this is work out, eat well, and get plenty of sleep. It is amazing how this can influence your mood.

I think every DJ is different, and becoming and staying a DJ is about constantly learning and trying out new techniques and attitudes, with the goal of finding a set that both gets you the results you'd like and fits the person that you are or you see yourself being.

Robby

 

[XANEUS]

Sorry to interrupt with this... I'll have something more interesting to say after a thorough read as this looks like a VERY interesting post... But where do you guys go to read/post on ASF? The only ASF I was aware of is an archive...

 

[T Dog]

PDX,

You may have read Nick's and my debate over one of his treads a few weeks ago. So you know I don't agree with everything that Nick says.

Out of everyone here I think Nick does the most research and field testing. No one is more open to the different approaches and methods than him on this board.

Having said that, every technique is not the best technique for everyone. Each of us has a method or style that is unique to us and fits our personality. When you find this technique, talking to, attracting, and meeting women will become as easy as talking to and making friends with dudes.

Read what Nick a.k.a PDX has ventured into and reported on, it may not be 100% gold but it will have useful aspects about it.

It is up to YOU to see if it can add any value to your game. That is the true sign of a DJ.

T Dog

P.s. This post is accompied by a personal note to PDX.

 

[Ivan Drago]

SexPDX, great thread as always. I am really curious - do you have a certian goal you are going for? I can see that you took on Speed Seduction first, now Juggler's Workshop, what do you have planned next? It seems like you are doing everything possible in the field of seduction - any particular reason?