Juggler Workshop Review & Lay Report (VERY LONG)

[MR_PERFECT]

I've spent the last 4 hours reading this thread. SexPDX wrote an excellent post. To be honest, I don't want to hear about the failures. Telling us about those would be a waste of time.

Meeting the woman at the airport was being in the right place at the right time, but getting laid was all SexPDX. With all the time spent in the car with her, it was either going to make or break him.

I think a lot of the criticism was justified: each guy got something different from the post. Elite Womanizer was concerned about your success rate. I'm more interested in how you started conversations with women in any environment. I think it benefits all of us to read discussions like this. The critics you had actually added to the post. Most guys felt like they had to take sides instead of reading objectively.

I don't know why Elite Womanizer was banned from this site. I've read a few of his posts and he had some valid points at times.

 

[SexPDX]

Originally posted by MR_PERFECT
I've spent the last 4 hours reading this thread. SexPDX wrote an excellent post. To be honest, I don't want to hear about the failures. Telling us about those would be a waste of time.

Meeting the woman at the airport was being in the right place at the right time, but getting laid was all SexPDX. With all the time spent in the car with her, it was either going to make or break him.

I think a lot of the criticism was justified: each guy got something different from the post. Elite Womanizer was concerned about your success rate. I'm more interested in how you started conversations with women in any environment. I think it benefits all of us to read discussions like this. The critics you had actually added to the post. Most guys felt like they had to take sides instead of reading objectively.

I don't know why Elite Womanizer was banned from this site. I've read a few of his posts and he had some valid points at times.

Why is Elite Womanizer banned??? The better question is: why should I have had to ASK for that to happen?

I did not ask EW to be banned because he disagreed with me. It was not a matter of opinion we were dealing with here. What he said did not communicate anything intelligible other than his motivation to cast me in a negative light. Whatever point he DID have went out the window in terms of validitity when he took my comment about juggler's frame of rejection out of context and recasted it as contradictory to the statement I made about rejection how GUNWITCH frames it. These are not "differences of opinion" we are dealing with, this is an inability to engage in a meaningful discussion. Allen recognized this too when I pointed it out and that is why EW is banned.

Besides, it's not like he contributed anything.

-PDX

 

[copeland]

Juggler "Method" Revisited

Originally posted by juggler

“The bulk of making a connection and getting a woman is the middle game…closing is really just an extension of the middle (game).”

Yes, the “middle game” is considered the phase where you build up the attraction. Closing on the other hand is not a direct extension of this. When you close you do more of a ‘making use’ of that attraction than a continuation of creation of it. Strike one.

Originally posted by juggler
“For the most part I wanted the workshop participants to get really good at the middle…Sure the workshop participants did not close alot of girls but that is because I didn't let them.”

Although I agree that the middle is the most important, it loses a lot of its value when you can’t take advantage of your efforts. A weak unskilled close lowers her attraction towards you.

Not knowing how to close properly is one of the leading reasons why women flake, which is why so many guys bytch about how getting girls’ numbers is a waste of time. They rationalize to themselves (esp. at asf) that if you can’t lay them that day, the phone number is useless. Think about that, and tell me how logical that sounds to you? Very illogical almost to the point of disillusionment. Strike two.

Originally posted by juggler
“I pulled them out of good situations time and time again.”

Is it a crime to number close AND try to fu*k the same girls at the club or anywhere else that night? Or what about going around getting several numbers and kisses under your belt before trying to bring a girl home? Not many people in your work shop got a chance to do any of that because according to you, you “didn’t let them”. Well then how are they going to learn how to do it? They aren’t because they’re on the wrong path.

Let’s take a look at a simple analogy that resembles the importance of following through with number, kiss and fu*k closing . We’ll suppose you’ll be running the 400 yard dash in the Olympics. Is it logical to practice running only the first 300 yards until you’re the fastest in the world? Of course not, come competition day, you still have 100 more yards left and chances are you’re going to run out of steam and not be able to capitalize on your positioning. Strike three. You’re out!

On a final note, you may think that closing is as simple as saying “I want to see you again” or something to that respect, and sometimes it can be. But successful pick ups don’t have to immediately end with the number close, or any close for that matter. It’s called a mid-game close where you solidify the attraction and increase it even more. This means being skilled at going from phase to phase like it’s nothing. Same day f*ck closes are much easier using that advanced technique.

 

[SexPDX]

Re: Juggler "Method" Revisited

copeland, I like your posts. You and I have disagreed on a few things in the past but I am always able to tell where you are coming from and it often resonates with some of my own experiences. From what I can tell, you are a player and not a wannabe. Cool .

Originally posted by copeland
Yes, the “middle game” is considered the phase where you build up the attraction. Closing on the other hand is not a direct extension of this. When you close you do more of a ‘making use’ of that attraction than a continuation of creation of it. Strike one.

I don't necessarily speak for Juggler but I doubt he will respond to this post so I will clarify this. I think what he is trying to say is that if you are good enough at the middle game then closing is not something that entails so much effort that you will make an entire "phase" out of it.

Juggler's approach is to make the seduction as SHARED an effort as possible. A lot of methods out there, SS for one, are monologue focused, Juggler emphasizes dialouge. He made me realize that a lot of my previous efforts involved too much FORCING of things. Now, I am much more polished in my interactions because when I close (which I don't A LOT lately judging strictly by percentages) it's a natural extension of the interaction rather than something I force. I have had girls close
ME more often than was happening before.

Originally posted by copeland
Although I agree that the middle is the most important, it loses a lot of its value when you can’t take advantage of your efforts. A weak unskilled close lowers her attraction towards you.

I agree. In fact, I lump in closes that involve pressure tactics or manipulation under what you are calling "weak unskilled closes", such as DeAngelo's "do you have email" bit. Anything progessed that is an any way forced I do not consider genuine progress. It's worth saying that there are many top PUA's who disagree with me and will tell you that they can be effective tactics but these guys are after !closes even if the tactics involved jeapordize her long-term attraction to you. As much as I am thought of as the "quick lay" guy on this forum (and I am not AGAINST quick lays!), I do want the women to STAY attracted to me.

Originally posted by copeland
Not knowing how to close properly is one of the leading reasons why women flake, which is why so many guys bytch about how getting girls’ numbers is a waste of time. They rationalize to themselves (esp. at asf) that if you can’t lay them that day, the phone number is useless. Think about that, and tell me how logical that sounds to you?

I think the problem with this on ASF (which influenced the development of my game a lot) is that many guys, like me, went through a period where they went out sarging specifically to get #closes. They got really good at that but the numbers were almost always flakes. They then arrive at the conclusion that numbers are worthless and you have to go for the same day lay. The position I have come around to now is that neither the number nor the lay should be the goal. The goal should be the the RAPPORT and the ATTRACTION. If you can make THOSE THINGS the goal and get good at doing that then closing is easy because you don't have to FORCE it. It just becomes a natural extension of the interaction and pushing for a lay or a number at any particular time is not as crucial because you have the confidence that these things are on the way and will happen out of mutual desire because you are laying the groundwork correct AND not going anything that's going to kill the rapport that has been built and is being built, forcing things inappropriately is one such thing that risks that.

As much as Juggler's help has polished up parts of my game, I don't really think Juggler views himself as having a "method". It's just that when he explains it for the purpose of teaching it, it comes out as such.

Right after the workshop I tried to model what he did completely for a while but I have had a few recent interactions with girls that have gone well and have got me thinking that what we call Juggler's "method" is really just based entirely on his ability to hold interesting conversations where he makes smooth progress in rapport, be warm and open, be non-threatening, and be comfortable with the fact that he is into her and not be afraid to express that at the proper stage of rapport. I certainly don't have to model him TOO closely to do all that. I don't think I am "doing Juggler", at this point I think I am just doing SexPDX.

-PDX

 

[Sisko]

Well I only read your orrigial report and a few posts besides it Nick.
This reply is just meant to say a great job and keep on doing it.
Since you got so many critics, this is meant to stop you from loosing motivation to post here.
Many people benifit from your reports and posts, so tumbs up.

 

[cynetix]

Excellent post

Good job PDX, and thanks much for sharing the wealth.

cynetix

 

[copeland]

Re: Re: Juggler "Method" Revisited

Haha, the player lifestyle has definitely got me

Originally posted by SexPDX
“I don't necessarily speak for Juggler but I doubt he will respond to this post so I will clarify this. I think what he is trying to say is that if you are good enough at the middle game then closing is not something that entails so much effort that you will make an entire "phase" out of it.”

There’s really not much he can respond with, in terms of disagreement or clarification. My points were solid and he knows it. If you take away anything from the post, it should be that follow through is critical for developing your closing abilities. That’s about as concisely as I can put it.

Originally posted by SexPDX
“I agree. In fact, I lump in closes that involve pressure tactics or manipulation under what you are calling "weak unskilled closes", such as DeAngelo's "do you have email" bit. Anything progessed that is an any way forced I do not consider genuine progress.”

It’s about smooth transition into closing. Would it be smoother to close after having talked about what she’s doing with her friends later in the week, or after having talked about what kind of food her dog likes to eat? It’s about timing, which can indeed be intentionally altered.

Sure you can close either way, but the former is a much better way of doing it. See how there’s no “forcing” involved and it seems more natural. In this case it would be a natural extension of the conversation. But does simply focusing on your middle game, teach one this skill? Not exactly, because you actually need forethought to carry it out when you wish, instead of waiting for the opportunity to come to you.

Another misconception many guys have is that it takes a certain amount of “talk time” to attract women. Nothing can be further from the truth. Strong connections can be made within several minutes depending on the venue. It’s the quality of your game that counts.

One way of measuring your game is through phone number flake rate. Go out and set about a 5 minute time limit for your interactions (10 minutes for bars and clubs). Know that you only have a limited amount of time to attract each woman. Then call them all and see how many you hook up with.

That’s kind of like the “say nothing but statements for a week” challenge. It will change the way you look at the dynamics of conversation, as well as improve your game.

Well those are my tips for the week. I’ll say some things about you’re original post whenever I feel like posting again. Remember that it’s about putting things in focus…and I’m out. Oh yeah, I heard that Deangelo is coming out with an icq close

 

[Charisma]

Hey this helped me alot, I do that pecking **** with really hot women, yet not with average girls, I'll try to get that fixed asap !

 

[Pancho]

Sheeiitt….i haven’t come to this forum in a long time, but I am glad I came back in time to read this post and the various responses. I have a couple of comments:

1) Damn, I can’t believe how much you have changed, SexPDX. Ol’ Pancho has been around for awhile, and I’ve seen you morph from this aggressive, alpha freak into a more contemplative, systematic freak (lol). If there is anything that has been holding you back in your quest to become an accomplished PUA, its your over eagerness. You’re still a touch to eager, as I noticed in some parts of your story (and in previous story), but your getting it under control and your starting to see results aren’t you?

2) Building rapport is SO IMPORTANT, and doing it with strangers is no easy feat…if its not something you incorporate into your everyday life, with everyday people, then you can’t internalize it….part of building rapport is being genuine, which is only possible when you build it into who you are. You have to remember that this stuff is not just helping you be a better PUA…its helping you be a better person, a person that those around you want to know. Best of luck in this.

3) I am sick of this “shes going to sleep with you anyway” or “shes a ***** or slut for sleeping with you after just meeting you” crap. Ya, there are some slutty girls out there…but do you guys honestly think even the sluttiest girl will just sleep with anyone with three legs? If that’s true, then why are so many of you having trouble getting laid?? You have to give yourself some credit…if she is sleeping with you, its because you did something right. When I had no game, even the slutty chicks wouldn’t touch me….

4) I am a horrible PUA. Partly because I don’t put enough effort into it, partly because I’ve accustomed (with good success) to picking up girls I meet through friends, or who are in my classes, and partly because I’ve been out of the game for awhile. I have almost no success at bars, I have **some** success at pubs, and Ive never done a cold pickup. I have a great girl right now, but if for some reasons things don’t work out (which I doubt..this girl is amazing), I would love to see your type in action. If Im ever in your neck of the woods, I’ll stop by. Would you suffer a guy coming along who has little skillz and show him the ropes? Im pretty good at the rapport thing, but I have a lot to learn.

Later,

Pancho

 

[SexPDX]

Wuzzzzup, Pancho!

Pancho! Talk about a sight for sore eyes, I have missed you.

Originally posted by Pancho
1) Damn, I can’t believe how much you have changed, SexPDX. Ol’ Pancho has been around for awhile, and I’ve seen you morph from this aggressive, alpha freak into a more contemplative, systematic freak (lol). If there is anything that has been holding you back in your quest to become an accomplished PUA, its your over eagerness. You’re still a touch to eager, as I noticed in some parts of your story (and in previous story), but your getting it under control and your starting to see results aren’t you?

Yeah, it's been great. Juggler really polished my game up in some key areas. In the workshop I learned a lot about making myself appear less threatening and I don't fight for the floor in conversations as much. I thought I had these things under control but Juggler was able to see these tendencies coming through in very subtle ways in my interactions that I never would have noticed myself.

Originally posted by Pancho
2) Building rapport is SO IMPORTANT, and doing it with strangers is no easy feat…if its not something you incorporate into your everyday life, with everyday people, then you can’t internalize it

Very true. I went kind of nuts with this. After meeting Juggler and seeing how good he was at building rapport with strangers I wanted to do EXACTLY what he was doing as quickly as possible. So I got to where making complete strangers "like me" became a compulsive behavior (and it still kind of is). What I am starting to realize though, is that since Juggler's chosen profession is a being a performer his job involves building rapport with people and what I saw him do is based on years of intense training and experience so it's no wonder he can make it seem so easy when he does it but I can't do it as well after only having had one weekend to be shown what he does. I guess it's more if that EAGERNESS, again! LOL!

Originally posted by Pancho
3) I am sick of this “shes going to sleep with you anyway” or “shes a ***** or slut for sleeping with you after just meeting you” crap. Ya, there are some slutty girls out there…but do you guys honestly think even the sluttiest girl will just sleep with anyone with three legs? If that’s true, then why are so many of you having trouble getting laid?? You have to give yourself some credit…if she is sleeping with you, its because you did something right. When I had no game, even the slutty chicks wouldn’t touch me…

AMEN!!! Glad someone else sees how ridiculous that is. If getting laid take no game then why are there so many unlaid guys here?

Ultimately one of the reasons I like this forum so much is the amount of variety we have here in terms of goals and ways of looking at things. However, one drawback is that you get a lot of mainstream (no game) thinking coming through on the boards with a lot of socially conditioned ideas that are not really useful to us and the "she's slut for sleeping with you so quickly" bullcrap is a perfect example of that.

Originally posted by Pancho
4) I am a horrible PUA. Partly because I don’t put enough effort into it, partly because I’ve accustomed (with good success) to picking up girls I meet through friends, or who are in my classes, and partly because I’ve been out of the game for awhile. I have almost no success at bars, I have **some** success at pubs, and Ive never done a cold pickup.

This is funny, you are like the opposite of me. I am good at cold pickups but I find more "traditional" ways of meeting girls (through friends, ect.) a little harder. I see it as an ASF exposure phenomenon. The ASF materials get the guy thinking outside the box, which is good, but sometimes the guy just finds another box in which to think. LOL!

Originally posted by Pancho
I have a great girl right now, but if for some reasons things don’t work out (which I doubt..this girl is amazing), I would love to see your type in action. If Im ever in your neck of the woods, I’ll stop by. Would you suffer a guy coming along who has little skillz and show him the ropes? Im pretty good at the rapport thing, but I have a lot to learn.

I'd love to meet you, Pancho. Shoot me a PM and we will see if we will ever be around each other in the forseeable future.

-PDX

 

[Don Ronny]

Ahh the good old days of SoSUave

They dont make posts like these anymore

 

[Eternal]

Originally posted by Don Ronny
Ahh the good old days of SoSUave

They dont make posts like these anymore

Which is why posts like these need to be "Archived."

*Very rarely said* To the Archive!

 

[syncmaster]

Bump because this is such a damn good post!

 

[h2o]

yes, BUMP, I have just discovered Juggler's stuff, and it is very good...I really like his style, and it is congruent with the whole being natural, just-be-yourself mindset

awesome stuff!

 

[Eulogy]

Holy craaaaaaaaaaaaaap @ 300$ ONLY.

 

[Ricky]

Good post.

I agree, rapport is so important to keep it lasting.

 

[ChristianCSI]

Hey guys,
Just wanted to give you a heads up that Juggler's new site is at www.charismasciences.com. We have some podcasts there, a great mailing list, a video of Neil Strauss and Juggler talking, and such and such.

SexPDX is the man.

 

[Vandermast]

SexPDX,

I liked reading your post & experience w/ Juggler Method, it didn't feel very long when I was reading it ( the flames here are halirous and don't get old) and a good confirmation to know you got laid right after the workshop using soley what you've learned in the weekend!

I want to know if you are still using Jugglers method?

So far most of it sounds to me like I've already met many jugglers in my life (highschool, friends, teachers, in clubs, myself. etc) It's different as it does not rely on openers or MM technique's material and that you yourself are the 'source' of it. So I wonder how attraction is created with this method as I believe attraction is a 2 way street that a woman must have with you so things can escalate to better things. Reason I ask is b/c I'm considering getting the ebook then going to a workshop. I admit I am liking his idea's already. And at the sametime, I do not want to walk into it and realize that I am naturally doing most of these things that he is teaching. How far have you been able to extend these skills into creating attraction where you might have not been able to in your past? (a good example was your LR by the way)

thanx in advance

 

[phatboi408]

I am fascinated by your experience with Jug. but what other work shops have you been to?

 

[resilient]

I just got back from a Charisma Arts bootcamp in LA. What an amazing time and eye opener. I can truly say it changed my outlook on life in a positive light. It didn't transform me into ladies man over night, but it definately gave me great life skills to build on. I can see why people in the community believe Juggler's Method helps people become better conversationalists.