Is there any solution? I feel like there's no good answer for me. It's all a mess

SW15

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I'm already in therapy and have been for some time. There's little therapy can do in fixing my issues meeting women tho, at least that's what it seems like
Conventional Cognitive Behavioral Therapy is incapable of turning a man into an elite level seducer. You might need to read Albert Ellis' "The Art of Erotic Seduction" to deal with a psychotherapist that is helpful in seduction. The typical psychologist, psychiatrist, or mental health counselor is a chump beta male or a woman. Most of the chump beta males are already married men. Some of these married men are also getting cucked by their wives. Neither a chump beta male or a woman with an advanced degree is capable in turning a man into a seducer.

I'm not crapping on psychological treatments as a whole as they can be helpful in other elements of life and good for the whole person. Therapist sessions are not designed to make someone a good approacher of strangers, app swiper, or excellent DM'er of women on Instagram. Psychological well being does not get a man a good first approach or a first date.

women nowadays are hostile to being approached.
No, they are not. That doesn't mean that they won't be accept your date offer or that they'll even stick around the conversation long enough for you. They won't be outright hostile to you either unless you have subpar looks. Because my looks are around a 7, I don't have to deal with that. I have also regularly approached women 10+ years younger than I am. I have no fear of being labeled a creep either.

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Your main solution is to first off change your bad attitude. You must be open to change and changing everything. You must lift weights, exercise, reduce body fat, shave your creepster, outdated mustache, and probably work on your overall personality.

Neil Strauss changed his attitude by hanging out around Mystery and other PUAs and went from a complete zero to a great seducer who could get threesomes with elite looking women. He accomplished this as 5'6" balding man.
 
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Serenity

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Alright, strap in, this is going to be a long one. I have only read the OP, not bothered to read all the replies so far. I will pick out bits of it with quotes and reply to that, offering my perspective.

I'm becoming increasingly convinced that trying to date or meet the kind of woman I really want is a futile effort and that it's unrealistic to think that I'll ever achieve my goals as far as my love life.
Right off the bat it might be worth following this intuition, trying too hard might be a larger part of the problem than most would think.

Firstly, I've only ever been able to meet women from apps. I've used apps since I was 18 and to this day it's the only way I know how to meet women
Apps appear to offer advantages in terms of dating, but it's an illusion. If it's romance you seek, which I assume you are, this is an unlikely place to find it. You'll know too little from profiles and chats, it's physical dates where you'll soak up most of the information about who they are. Dates, which is your window to get to know them face to face, take a lot of time, but that's given that there's a match first and then a conversation leading to one, taking even more time. What I'm getting at here is that it's extremely inefficient for what you seek compared to any sort of mingling with multiple women present, where you can talk to several briefly for a short while to see if you vibe so to speak.

Apps are a complete dead end yet I'm forced to rely on them.
Ask yourself who is forcing you, seriously. It's you, nobody else. You have a choice even if you refuse to recognize it. You are fully responsible for this and fully capable of choosing otherwise, but you choose not to and then lie to yourself saying you're "forced to".
Before anyone says "just meet girls in real life, bro", let me explain why that option isn't viable either. To this very day, I have never gotten with any girl that I've initially met irl. It hasn't happened like that at all. I have no experiences of pulling the cute girl from class when I was in college, or hooking up with a woman from a party, or being introduced to a girl via social circle and eventually dating her. I have none of those fundamental experiences with meeting women irl that normal guys are supposed to have.
That is one intricate excuse. You haven't done it before or it hasn't happened, thus you can't start now? Are you "forced" to let your past define your future? There's nothing you can do now to change? If you're determined not to change, then what's the point of even asking for help? Seems you already have your excuses sorted out and is simply just unwilling to leave your comfort zone, how is anything we say going to change that? Change will only come when you take responsibility for your choices and choose differently going forward.

Historically, whenever I've come across a woman irl that I found attractive, I've suppressed my attraction since I always know that nothing will come of trying to pursue her.
I call this shooting yourself down before she does it. You don't know sh!t before you've explored it, even if you are right most of the time there's no certainty until you've tried. This is how a closed mind operates, you make your conclusions up in your mind instead of seeing how it concludes in real life and assume it to be real.

I have absolutely no way of meeting women naturally in real life.
You do, but you deny yourself that option to the point you truly believe you have no way. It is self-deception though, lies you tell yourself to avoid what you find uncomfortable.

I can't do cold approach since it's not compatible with my nature as an introvert, and I'm scared to death of being labelled as a creep for trying it.
The first half of that sentence is the lie you tell yourself to avoid facing the second part of that sentence. You avoid fear, this is fairly natural actually, but this type of fear is exactly what's holding you back.

I also want to bring some perspective to the term "cold approach". Typically it's seen as walking up to a woman and starting a conversation with underlying romantic and/or sexual intentions. Not that there's even anything wrong with those intentions, but they don't need to be present and personally I prefer starting neutrally. Are you a creep for walking over to a woman simply to talk? No, it's normal behavior in a lot of common settings. I think it's common to perceive "cold approach" as going over to that woman you don't know, trying to charm your way into either her heart or her pants. There's pressure in that, a goal and not attaining that goal is defined as failure.

I think that's the wrong perspective, it's at least a completely useless way of seeing it. A cold approach to me is just walking over to a slightly interesting woman to strike up a conversation, that's all. There's something wrong with her if she thinks that's immediately creepy in and of itself, you're just talking. It doesn't need to go anywhere, you go in to see where it goes and then decide based on that. You're not just there to try to get her, you're there to see if you even want her because you can't possibly know that without at least a little bit of interaction.

Also, introversion isn't a hindrance to 1 to 1 conversations. If you can't even do that then you're not just an introvert, you're a social recluse.

There's nothing suggesting that I'm even capable of doing that since I've made it to 27 without it ever happening.
I've seen guys make it decades further into their life having the same experience and the same mindset, fortifying their broken belief system for every year that passes. I'm convinced some of these guys just never make it out of their own web of lies and die having lived up to only a fraction of their potential. How many more years will it take before you start doubting the path you're on? When will you start asking yourself the critical questions and really dig down to find the truth beyond all your excuses? When will your desires in life surpass your fears?

I know these questions scared me a lot more than "maybe looking like a creep" about 10 years ago when I set out to enlighten myself and found this forum amongst other resources. I'd almost do anything to prevent finding myself on my deathbed later in life with a billion regrets for every time I chose to not give something a chance because I thought "I knew" how it would play out. I fvcking don't and more times than not I was surprised to find I was wrong about what I thought I knew. Socrates had a point when he said "all I know is that I know nothing".

But like I said, even in the unlikely event that I meet a girl irl I'm never capable of turning that opportunity into anything.
Certainly not with that attitude.

In short I don't think there's anything I can do besides make peace with my situation, keep fruitlessly swiping away on apps, and hoping and praying I luck out.
I think you're right, you should just give up. Don't even bother swiping on the apps, just delete them and find your happiness doing something else entirely. You don't need women, so far this endeavor is just dragging you down anyways, so what's the point? It is kinda stupid to keep doing something that just fills you with hopelessness, right? Who in their right mind would continue torturing themselves like that? You have your solution, give up to find peace. I'm not even joking, I urge you to do this.

fate is railroading me into being perpetually unsatisfied
Wait, didn't you just recognize you have a choice? Give up, find peace. Why are you blaming fate? You're the one choosing to continue doing sh!t that perpetually leads to dissatisfaction. Who's holding a gun to your head forcing you to continue? So far it seems it's just yourself.

never being able to meet and date the kind of women I actually want
I'm going to give it to you straight, you might never find that woman even if you do change your mindset. However, if you stay on your current path you wouldn't give her a chance even if she was right in front of you, because you'd fail to recognize the opportunity before it slips away. That's why I'm criticizing what I'm criticizing about you and yet also unironically tell you to just make peace with the idea that the opportunity might just never arise.
 

Serenity

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Had to split my post because it got too long (I warned you all)...

It's so frustrating, and even on this forum nobody has been able to give me a viable, realistic, sensible answer to solve the problems I've described. Is there anything I can do, or is it over? Please be honest and realistic about what my options are, if I have any
I've done my best here, but ultimately it's all up to you. There's nothing I or anyone else on this forum can say or do to convince you of anything unless you choose to see what we see in order to understand. Maybe you perceive me as attacking you, maybe you perceive this as enlightening, I don't know for sure yet. I'm guessing you're going to deny and deflect all across the board, but I'm hoping my guess is incorrect. Maybe my efforts here are wasted, but if so I can at least hope for someone else to find some use in my perspective, if not then I at least tried instead of telling myself it's not going to work.
 

BergischerLöwe

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Conventional Cognitive Behavioral Therapy is incapable of turning a man into an elite level seducer. You might need to read Albert Ellis' "The Art of Erotic Seduction" to deal with a psychotherapist that is helpful in seduction. The typical psychologist, psychiatrist, or mental health counselor is a chump beta male or a woman. Most of the chump beta males are already married men. Some of these married men are also getting cucked by their wives. Neither a chump beta male or a woman with an advanced degree is capable in turning a man into a seducer.

I'm not crapping on psychological treatments as a whole as they can be helpful in other elements of life and good for the whole person. Therapist sessions are not designed to make someone a good approacher of strangers, app swiper, or excellent DM'er of women on Instagram. Psychological well being does not get a man a good first approach or a first date.



No, they are not. That doesn't mean that they won't be accept your date offer or that they'll even stick around the conversation long enough for you. They won't be outright hostile to you either unless you have subpar looks. Because my looks are around a 7, I don't have to deal with that. I have also regularly approached women 10+ years younger than I am. I have no fear of being labeled a creep either.

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Your main solution is to first off change your bad attitude. You must be open to change and changing everything. You must lift weights, exercise, reduce body fat, shave your creepster, outdated mustache, and probably work on your overall personality.

Neil Strauss changed his attitude by hanging out around Mystery and other PUAs and went from a complete zero to a great seducer who could get threesomes with elite looking women. He accomplished this as 5'6" balding man.
If I approached a woman I wouldn’t be able to shake the feeling that I’m bother her and that she doesn’t want to talk to me. After all that sentiment appears to be what women are saying now. There’s so many women who say that they’re tired of being bothered and approached in public. Also as I’ve said if there’s women that are more compatible with me chances are they hang out at home most of the time anyway so I’ll never meet them.

I do agree that therapy doesn’t address the problems with women that I have. It’s frustrating when everybody in the dating advice community just says “get therapy” or “go out more” or some other vague advice like that. I think you’re also correct in saying that there’s aspects of my personality that I can work on. But I’ll never be able to become one of those really extroverted, sociable, charismatic guys that go out and party and approach women all the time. I’m always gonna be an introverted, low energy, more socially reserved kinda guy, and there’s nothing wrong with that, but there are probably aspects of my personality that I can change. Then even if I remain my introverted self I can at least have more things working in my favour. At the end of the day I can’t force myself to become a completely different person and change everything about myself in the hope that I’ll meet more women that way. That wouldn’t be very realistic. I have to change myself so that it still compliments my nature and works in accordance with it and not against it. What aspects of my personality do you think should be improved?

I already lift weights and love going to the gym. It’s truly something I enjoy and I always get so mad when I have to miss a day of training. I should indeed keep reducing bodyfat, maybe I’ll consult my doctor or a dietician to help me. Losing bodyfat will make me more attractive and confident, but it still won’t really improve my issues meeting women since I have like no opportunities to meet them anyway. But for health reasons I need to get below 20% at all costs.

I’m reluctant to shave my mustache since I look too boyish without one. Even though handlebar mustaches aren’t as much in style I still really like the way it looks on me and it’s a classic Central European style. I genuinely think it’s cool that I can grow one like that, and since I can’t grow a full beard if I want to have facial hair a mustache is the only think that looks good. It’s gonna take me a while to decide whether or not to shave it off since I’ve had it for a long time and I think it looks cool. At least you’re not telling me to cut my long hair short lol
 

Manure Spherian

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slightly overweight
As I said in the other thread, your loneliness appears to be caused by a women carrying fifteen to 20 excess pounds! Over and over you’ve said such women are attracted to you, even ones with redeeming qualities, yet you are choosing not to move forward with them because of weight that YOU can help them lose in three months, maybe less!

I believe you are are not a homely man, but likely you’re not strikingly handsome either! You are also eccentric, which is fine for the women you actually attract. But again, slightly overweight, which can be reversed, is keeping you from possibly having a satisfying relationship.

Perhaps I simply cannot relate because I have a libido and bodily chemistry that allowed me to be very turned on by ordinary, moderately-attractive women, and I find it hard to believe that some men have chemistries that are so unique that they cannot do the same; my suspicion is that SOME men who are absolutely hung up on “8’s, 9’s, or 10’s,” are mostly so because they want to impress others.

My wildest three-month fling in life, what I call “porn come to life” was with a slightly overweight woman with a nice shape and a pretty face. It was actually something some men might consider a blessing from god.
 

Create self-fulfilling prophecies. Always assume the positive. Assume she likes you. Assume she wants to talk to you. Assume she wants to go out with you. When you think positive, positive things happen.

Quote taken from The SoSuave Guide to Women and Dating, which you can read for FREE.

Manure Spherian

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“get therapy” or “go out more”
It depends on the therapist. Certainly a male therapist who understands and doesn’t mince words about sexual dynamics or women. My retired therapist was awesome and told it like it is. He would actually be considered red-pilled though the term didn’t exist when I was his client. By today’s standards he’d also be considered misogynistic.

Perhaps you can take a cue from a line he said that stuck with me, “They’re all pink inside”. He also once told me during the days I didn’t quite understand women, “If you don’t find a woman, you will be the most miserable man on earth!”
 

Pierce Manhammer

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My eyes are bleeding.

The OP has been told by every single active and willing póster ways to improve and how to start, three ways from Friday. Over and over and over again, ad-nauseum. The OP comes back and says the same shyte over and over and over again. The platitudes are nearly unbelievable.

Dude will not change and he’s getting some weird rise out of being the center of our attention.
 

SW15

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If I approached a woman I wouldn’t be able to shake the feeling that I’m bother her and that she doesn’t want to talk to me.
That's your perception and not reality. If a woman doesn't want to talk to you, she'll give you one word answers and won't help you along in the conversation. The conversation will fizzle out in 30-60 seconds. That stuff happens all the time to approachers like myself and other guys on the forum who actively approach like @Jesse Pinkman and @nicksaiz65 .

After all that sentiment appears to be what women are saying now. There’s so many women who say that they’re tired of being bothered and approached in public.
What women say they want and what women actually respond to in reality are two different things. Even master PUA Ross Jeffries said this back in 1992. The 68 seconds from where I've started this video explain a lot. Ross did a great job mastering the way of speaking in soundbites for media here.


I’ve said if there’s women that are more compatible with me chances are they hang out at home most of the time anyway so I’ll never meet them.
If you want to get laid conventionally (i.e. paying for sex indirectly), you're going to need to be less of a homebody.

I do agree that therapy doesn’t address the problems with women that I have. It’s frustrating when everybody in the dating advice community just says “get therapy” or “go out more” or some other vague advice like that. I think you’re also correct in saying that there’s aspects of my personality that I can work on.
Mental health therapy has value in certain circumstances but one of its key limitations is that it doesn't make anyone a great seducer. A mental health therapist has no training on what it takes to effectively start the seduction process. The typical mental health therapist cannot teach you how to chat up a woman in real life and arrange a date step by step. The typical mental health therapist cannot teach you how to get more matches on Tinder/Bumble and how to text more effectively inside those apps. The typical mental health therapist has no idea how to effectively slide into DMs on Instagram and arrange dates. That's not covered in academic training.

I’ll never be able to become one of those really extroverted, sociable, charismatic guys that go out and party and approach women all the time. I’m always gonna be an introverted, low energy, more socially reserved kinda guy, and there’s nothing wrong with that, but there are probably aspects of my personality that I can change.
So what? There are plenty of introverted men who are high quality seducers. How does an introvert seduce? Good introverted seducers are often good at non-bar approaching. Nightlife venues are for more extroverted and high energy personality types for the most part, though some introverts can be successful at some quieter lounge type places. Non-bar approaching is the best form of in-person approaching for the introvert. They can recognize indicators of interest (IOIs) and make it happen. I'll cover in a moment how you can get more IOIs so you won't have to do as much on approaches. I am an introvert. I have a lifetime notch count higher than most men's lifetime notch count. Introverts can be very good at assessing their own strengths and develop an approach and seduction plan that works with their introversion. You don't have to change that part of you. Quit making excuses.

I already lift weights and love going to the gym. It’s truly something I enjoy and I always get so mad when I have to miss a day of training. I should indeed keep reducing bodyfat, maybe I’ll consult my doctor or a dietician to help me. Losing bodyfat will make me more attractive and confident, but it still won’t really improve my issues meeting women since I have like no opportunities to meet them anyway. But for health reasons I need to get below 20% at all costs.
Good. If you can get big muscles and lower body fat, you'll have more IOIs in life. You could pick up women at the gym, the grocery store (using Day Bang techniques), or even a bookstore. If you like to read, you can hang out at Barnes & Noble and pick up women using Day Bang techniques. Also, a lot of Barnes & Noble locations also have coffee shops in there so you can run Day Bang coffee shop style game in there too. It's like visiting 2 venues in one.

I’m reluctant to shave my mustache since I look too boyish without one. Even though handlebar mustaches aren’t as much in style I still really like the way it looks on me and it’s a classic Central European style. I genuinely think it’s cool that I can grow one like that, and since I can’t grow a full beard if I want to have facial hair a mustache is the only think that looks good. It’s gonna take me a while to decide whether or not to shave it off since I’ve had it for a long time and I think it looks cool. At least you’re not telling me to cut my long hair short lol
If I were to have a mustache, I would look like either Tom Selleck or a 1980s porn star. I might think that looks cool but others wouldn't think so. My mustache might be perceived as creepy or something that a child molester would have.

Germanic handlebar mustaches with blond or light brown hair would look goofy. Almost every woman would be turned off by your mustache. You would not look too boyish without one and even if you did, it could help you in seducing the most desirable 18-22 year olds.

Shaving off your mustache is the easiest thing to do.

I'm neutral on the long hair. It depends on the guy.

Your fashion might be outdated too.

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You also have an irrational fear based upon a faulty comprehension of statistics and mathematics about causing pregnancy. Wear a condom. Most of the women you'll have sex with at your age will be under 25 and using some form of birth control. The combination of condoms and a woman on birth control is very effective and you don't have to waste money on a surgery. Even condoms alone without a woman using birth control is effective.
 
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corrector

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If I approached a woman I wouldn’t be able to shake the feeling that I’m bother her and that she doesn’t want to talk to me. After all that sentiment appears to be what women are saying now. There’s so many women who say that they’re tired of being bothered and approached in public. Also as I’ve said if there’s women that are more compatible with me chances are they hang out at home most of the time anyway so I’ll never meet them.

I do agree that therapy doesn’t address the problems with women that I have. It’s frustrating when everybody in the dating advice community just says “get therapy” or “go out more” or some other vague advice like that. I think you’re also correct in saying that there’s aspects of my personality that I can work on. But I’ll never be able to become one of those really extroverted, sociable, charismatic guys that go out and party and approach women all the time. I’m always gonna be an introverted, low energy, more socially reserved kinda guy, and there’s nothing wrong with that, but there are probably aspects of my personality that I can change. Then even if I remain my introverted self I can at least have more things working in my favour. At the end of the day I can’t force myself to become a completely different person and change everything about myself in the hope that I’ll meet more women that way. That wouldn’t be very realistic. I have to change myself so that it still compliments my nature and works in accordance with it and not against it. What aspects of my personality do you think should be improved?

I already lift weights and love going to the gym. It’s truly something I enjoy and I always get so mad when I have to miss a day of training. I should indeed keep reducing bodyfat, maybe I’ll consult my doctor or a dietician to help me. Losing bodyfat will make me more attractive and confident, but it still won’t really improve my issues meeting women since I have like no opportunities to meet them anyway. But for health reasons I need to get below 20% at all costs.

I’m reluctant to shave my mustache since I look too boyish without one. Even though handlebar mustaches aren’t as much in style I still really like the way it looks on me and it’s a classic Central European style. I genuinely think it’s cool that I can grow one like that, and since I can’t grow a full beard if I want to have facial hair a mustache is the only think that looks good. It’s gonna take me a while to decide whether or not to shave it off since I’ve had it for a long time and I think it looks cool. At least you’re not telling me to cut my long hair short lol
What is your photoreeler score?
 

Clockwerk50

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I went to a therapist once. During my monthly sessions, I realized I was complaining about the same things over and over again. It came to the point that he was asking me the same questions. He would keep asking me what my goal was each time I went into his office, and eventually, during each hourly appointment, I would run out of things to say at the 30-minute mark. Evidently, I came to the conclusion that I was the only one who could solve my problems, not him, not the people behind the screen on Reddit/Sosuave, no one else but me, since obviously, other people have their own issues to deal with.

OP, you've been outside and seen the male competition that wouldn't think twice about pursuing the woman of your dreams. These individuals are taller, stronger, wealthier, more charismatic, etc. Do you think your ideal woman would choose you from this group of guys, teach you how to become a man, explain how to court women who look just like her, and help you solve all your past trauma out of sympathy and kindness? I don't think so. It's a dog-eat-dog world out there.

This thread reeks of venison, aka excuses. There are many things you can immediately change in your life, and the first thing I suggest is your pessimistic attitude towards life. No one is attracted to a stick in the mud with no ambition, extreme levels of unconfident self-esteem, and mental self-absorption. You're too much in your head.

You actually have a lot going for you since you're a musician and can probably communicate well. You just have to believe you're a great catch and be great full of everything you have. Some people are not as privileged as you. How would I solve your issue? I would think about how you can be more exciting, more happy. and what kind of life you can create where other people would like to be around you, both men and women alike. Women should never be the end goal here. After all, we are men, and we build...
 

Peace and Quiet

If you currently have too many women chasing you, calling you, harassing you, knocking on your door at 2 o'clock in the morning... then I have the simple solution for you.

Just read my free ebook 22 Rules for Massive Success With Women and do the opposite of what I recommend.

This will quickly drive all women away from you.

And you will be able to relax and to live your life in peace and quiet.

BergischerLöwe

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What is your photoreeler score?
I posted the nicest pic of me on there. A little lower than I thought it would be but it's only five votes. There's three notes saying they would have preferred a different hairstyle but my hair is longer in the pic than it is now.
 

corrector

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I posted the nicest pic of me on there. A little lower than I thought it would be but it's only five votes. There's three notes saying they would have preferred a different hairstyle but my hair is longer in the pic than it is now.
What was the score? You still did not answer it other than saying its lower than you thought. I use the pay feature in order to generate enough votes for an accurate assessment. According to photoreeler, I have a 3/10 looks rating. With a looks rating like that I definitely have an excuse not to do cold-approach and ignore anything that @SW15 has written on the matter as his experience as a 7/10 White guy doing cold-approaching would be vastly different than a 3/10 Bald Brown guy doing the same thing. Even if I were to adopt your negative mindset and validate all your excuses for myself, I still have a record that I spoke with a nice lady for 2 hours on another thread which means I'm not totally incapable of engaging an interested lady. However, I can see that I would have challenges getting my foot in the door or dealing with someone out of the blue without there been some sort of business or social construct where the girl is expecting me to talk with her or approach her. This echos your main issue with cold-approaching is the nature that it is rather out of the blue and your are disturbing someone's day and they are likely on the defensive as to figuring out what you want and you feel like you are backpeddling to justify that interruption.

However, it's important to have your score so you can at least know whether your excuses are valid, in applying them to yourself, or if you have a negative mindset that is crippling you as others have suggested.
 

BergischerLöwe

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As I said in the other thread, your loneliness appears to be caused by a women carrying fifteen to 20 excess pounds! Over and over you’ve said such women are attracted to you, even ones with redeeming qualities, yet you are choosing not to move forward with them because of weight that YOU can help them lose in three months, maybe less!

I believe you are are not a homely man, but likely you’re not strikingly handsome either! You are also eccentric, which is fine for the women you actually attract. But again, slightly overweight, which can be reversed, is keeping you from possibly having a satisfying relationship.

Perhaps I simply cannot relate because I have a libido and bodily chemistry that allowed me to be very turned on by ordinary, moderately-attractive women, and I find it hard to believe that some men have chemistries that are so unique that they cannot do the same; my suspicion is that SOME men who are absolutely hung up on “8’s, 9’s, or 10’s,” are mostly so because they want to impress others.

My wildest three-month fling in life, what I call “porn come to life” was with a slightly overweight woman with a nice shape and a pretty face. It was actually something some men might consider a blessing from god.
You may actually be onto something here. There's a few women I was with from like five or six years ago who have since lost weight, at least based on what I can extrapolate from social media. But when I was with them they were chubby. My last girlfriend had a few extra pounds but she still was pretty hot, she had an attractive face, an hourglass figure and a nice rack, she was just a bit heavier than what she could have been. Back in February of 2020, a few months after that relationship ended, I fooled around with this girl who was maybe like a 5.5 in looks and kinda chubby but as far as the actual sexual encounter was concerned she was quite good. We didn't have full on sex but what we did was fun and there may have been chemistry in that respect. But I only saw her once because she wasn't as hot as my ex was and she was also pretty nerdy and in general I didn't see it going long term with her. It was also right before covid and she was from a different state so it wouldn't have lasted anyway. But that encounter was memorable and I still think about it. Like I said tho I've seen guys way uglier and less masculine than me get hotter girls than I'm used to getting, so one would think I'd be able to do a bit better than the result I've attained thus far. I do think there are some things holding me back as far as the quality of women I've been able to attain.

It is indeed true that I'm not a homely man, but not strikingly handsome either. That's a fair assessment of what my looks actually are, even without ever seeing photos of me. In any case I need to keep losing bodyfat so I can become more attractive. I need to do that regardless of what my situation is. It would be great if I were able to date a woman who was also into going to the gym as much as I am, but I've never had the chance.
 

BergischerLöwe

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What was the score? You still did not answer it other than saying its lower than you thought. I use the pay feature in order to generate enough votes for an accurate assessment. According to photoreeler, I have a 3/10 looks rating. With a looks rating like that I definitely have an excuse not to do cold-approach and ignore anything that @SW15 has written on the matter as his experience as a 7/10 White guy doing cold-approaching would be vastly different than a 3/10 Bald Brown guy doing the same thing. Even if I were to adopt your negative mindset and validate all your excuses for myself, I still have a record that I spoke with a nice lady for 2 hours on another thread which means I'm not totally incapable of engaging an interested lady. However, I can see that I would have challenges getting my foot in the door or dealing with someone out of the blue without there been some sort of business or social construct where the girl is expecting me to talk with her or approach her. This echos your main issue with cold-approaching is the nature that it is rather out of the blue and your are disturbing someone's day and they are likely on the defensive as to figuring out what you want and you feel like you are backpeddling to justify that interruption.

However, it's important to have your score so you can at least know whether your excuses are valid, in applying them to yourself, or if you have a negative mindset that is crippling you as others have suggested.
Right now it's around 5 but there's only been a few votes
 

BergischerLöwe

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I went to a therapist once. During my monthly sessions, I realized I was complaining about the same things over and over again. It came to the point that he was asking me the same questions. He would keep asking me what my goal was each time I went into his office, and eventually, during each hourly appointment, I would run out of things to say at the 30-minute mark. Evidently, I came to the conclusion that I was the only one who could solve my problems, not him, not the people behind the screen on Reddit/Sosuave, no one else but me, since obviously, other people have their own issues to deal with.

OP, you've been outside and seen the male competition that wouldn't think twice about pursuing the woman of your dreams. These individuals are taller, stronger, wealthier, more charismatic, etc. Do you think your ideal woman would choose you from this group of guys, teach you how to become a man, explain how to court women who look just like her, and help you solve all your past trauma out of sympathy and kindness? I don't think so. It's a dog-eat-dog world out there.

This thread reeks of venison, aka excuses. There are many things you can immediately change in your life, and the first thing I suggest is your pessimistic attitude towards life. No one is attracted to a stick in the mud with no ambition, extreme levels of unconfident self-esteem, and mental self-absorption. You're too much in your head.

You actually have a lot going for you since you're a musician and can probably communicate well. You just have to believe you're a great catch and be great full of everything you have. Some people are not as privileged as you. How would I solve your issue? I would think about how you can be more exciting, more happy. and what kind of life you can create where other people would like to be around you, both men and women alike. Women should never be the end goal here. After all, we are men, and we build...
Ok this is all good but how do I become more exciting? Idk how I'd do that exactly. It's true that I'm a musician but not as many women listen to the kinda stuff my band puts out. You're right that I have a pessimistic attitude but that's how I always have been. Any time I've tried to be more optimistic about things I just think I'm lying to myself. I just have a natural tendency to be more cynical for some reason
 

Gamisch

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Ok this is all good but how do I become more exciting? Idk how I'd do that exactly. It's true that I'm a musician but not as many women listen to the kinda stuff my band puts out. You're right that I have a pessimistic attitude but that's how I always have been. Any time I've tried to be more optimistic about things I just think I'm lying to myself. I just have a natural tendency to be more cynical for some reason
The game ain't for you dawg.

Some men are,( luckily) not meant to reproduce. Your blood line ends with you.

Accept that and live life. Women, game and seduction are not your cup of tea.

You'll die as an incel/ volceĺ. If it wasn't for your parents you'd be dead already.
 
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BergischerLöwe

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Alright, strap in, this is going to be a long one. I have only read the OP, not bothered to read all the replies so far. I will pick out bits of it with quotes and reply to that, offering my perspective.


Right off the bat it might be worth following this intuition, trying too hard might be a larger part of the problem than most would think.


Apps appear to offer advantages in terms of dating, but it's an illusion. If it's romance you seek, which I assume you are, this is an unlikely place to find it. You'll know too little from profiles and chats, it's physical dates where you'll soak up most of the information about who they are. Dates, which is your window to get to know them face to face, take a lot of time, but that's given that there's a match first and then a conversation leading to one, taking even more time. What I'm getting at here is that it's extremely inefficient for what you seek compared to any sort of mingling with multiple women present, where you can talk to several briefly for a short while to see if you vibe so to speak.


Ask yourself who is forcing you, seriously. It's you, nobody else. You have a choice even if you refuse to recognize it. You are fully responsible for this and fully capable of choosing otherwise, but you choose not to and then lie to yourself saying you're "forced to".

That is one intricate excuse. You haven't done it before or it hasn't happened, thus you can't start now? Are you "forced" to let your past define your future? There's nothing you can do now to change? If you're determined not to change, then what's the point of even asking for help? Seems you already have your excuses sorted out and is simply just unwilling to leave your comfort zone, how is anything we say going to change that? Change will only come when you take responsibility for your choices and choose differently going forward.


I call this shooting yourself down before she does it. You don't know sh!t before you've explored it, even if you are right most of the time there's no certainty until you've tried. This is how a closed mind operates, you make your conclusions up in your mind instead of seeing how it concludes in real life and assume it to be real.


You do, but you deny yourself that option to the point you truly believe you have no way. It is self-deception though, lies you tell yourself to avoid what you find uncomfortable.


The first half of that sentence is the lie you tell yourself to avoid facing the second part of that sentence. You avoid fear, this is fairly natural actually, but this type of fear is exactly what's holding you back.

I also want to bring some perspective to the term "cold approach". Typically it's seen as walking up to a woman and starting a conversation with underlying romantic and/or sexual intentions. Not that there's even anything wrong with those intentions, but they don't need to be present and personally I prefer starting neutrally. Are you a creep for walking over to a woman simply to talk? No, it's normal behavior in a lot of common settings. I think it's common to perceive "cold approach" as going over to that woman you don't know, trying to charm your way into either her heart or her pants. There's pressure in that, a goal and not attaining that goal is defined as failure.

I think that's the wrong perspective, it's at least a completely useless way of seeing it. A cold approach to me is just walking over to a slightly interesting woman to strike up a conversation, that's all. There's something wrong with her if she thinks that's immediately creepy in and of itself, you're just talking. It doesn't need to go anywhere, you go in to see where it goes and then decide based on that. You're not just there to try to get her, you're there to see if you even want her because you can't possibly know that without at least a little bit of interaction.

Also, introversion isn't a hindrance to 1 to 1 conversations. If you can't even do that then you're not just an introvert, you're a social recluse.


I've seen guys make it decades further into their life having the same experience and the same mindset, fortifying their broken belief system for every year that passes. I'm convinced some of these guys just never make it out of their own web of lies and die having lived up to only a fraction of their potential. How many more years will it take before you start doubting the path you're on? When will you start asking yourself the critical questions and really dig down to find the truth beyond all your excuses? When will your desires in life surpass your fears?

I know these questions scared me a lot more than "maybe looking like a creep" about 10 years ago when I set out to enlighten myself and found this forum amongst other resources. I'd almost do anything to prevent finding myself on my deathbed later in life with a billion regrets for every time I chose to not give something a chance because I thought "I knew" how it would play out. I fvcking don't and more times than not I was surprised to find I was wrong about what I thought I knew. Socrates had a point when he said "all I know is that I know nothing".


Certainly not with that attitude.


I think you're right, you should just give up. Don't even bother swiping on the apps, just delete them and find your happiness doing something else entirely. You don't need women, so far this endeavor is just dragging you down anyways, so what's the point? It is kinda stupid to keep doing something that just fills you with hopelessness, right? Who in their right mind would continue torturing themselves like that? You have your solution, give up to find peace. I'm not even joking, I urge you to do this.


Wait, didn't you just recognize you have a choice? Give up, find peace. Why are you blaming fate? You're the one choosing to continue doing sh!t that perpetually leads to dissatisfaction. Who's holding a gun to your head forcing you to continue? So far it seems it's just yourself.


I'm going to give it to you straight, you might never find that woman even if you do change your mindset. However, if you stay on your current path you wouldn't give her a chance even if she was right in front of you, because you'd fail to recognize the opportunity before it slips away. That's why I'm criticizing what I'm criticizing about you and yet also unironically tell you to just make peace with the idea that the opportunity might just never arise.
In the past I've tried to quit apps but I always end up coming back to them after a few weeks. It's like a drug addict vowing to get sober and then relapsing. Up to this point apps are the only way I've been able to be visible by women at all. In the past when I've tried to quit them I've always come back to them for this reason. Without apps I just get nothing, at least that's how it's been so far. You make a good point tho about not making cold approach just be about trying to get with a woman. Maybe it is better if I frame it as talking to someone without any other motive, but it's still gonna take me a while to have the courage to approach and to find a good venue for it. I feel like I'm gonna need to pay somebody to teach me how to approach and help me conquer my negative thoughts about approaching, but most guys who teach such things appear to be scammers. What coaching could I potentially get that's legit?
 

BergischerLöwe

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The game ain't for you dawg.

Some men are,( luckily) not meant to reproduce. Your blood line ends with you.

Accept that and live life. Women, game snd seduction are not your cup of tea.

You'll die as an incel/ volceĺ. If it wasn't for your parents you'd be dead already.
I don't want to have kids anyway so my bloodline ending with me is of no concern. Thank you for at least being honest with me and not giving me any platitudes. That's respectable and I truly appreciate that
 

Gamisch

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I don't want to have kids anyway so my bloodline ending with me is of no concern. Thank you for being honest with me and not giving me any platitudes. That's respectable
I am sorry man. I have close friends like this who'll also never reproduce . Their distance from the game became too big to make up and they're satisfied with it too. That makes them rather VOLcel than INcel.

Find bigger goals. I am a musician too. Make great music, the internet assures you someone will someday find it and benefit from it. Make music wuth your heart, not so you can "become famous ".

Stop typing these long azz pathetic posts. Put that energy in anything else ..women simply domt want you, and you dont want them.

I already told you to get other ,bigger goals in life such as helping the less fortunate.

If you get a woman i promise you she'll make the devil bluss by her evilness . Step out of the game if you are smart and pursue other things.
 
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