Is There a Such Thing as a Faithful/Loyal Woman?

[zekko]

I'm human, as you say. Under the right condition, circumstance, and emotion--if I am in an exclusive relation--I won't cheat.

You say that now, but 20 years later, you never know what your situation might be. Just takes one moment of weakness. Not calling you a liar, but most likely a woman might say the same thing about it, and be completely sincere. But as I've said, people change, often in ways you can't foresee.

Why bother with exclusivity in the first place if there is a possibility (no matter how remote) that you think she may/will cheat?

That's a perfectly valid point of view, although I don't see it that way. This is more of a philosophy that I've learned as I've gotten older. A relationship doesn't have to last forever for it to have value. If the exclusive relationship is working in the here and now, and for the foreseeable future, I'm able to enjoy it for what it is. That doesn't mean I expect my girlfriend to cheat, I don't. But I also realize that there are no guarantees in life.

 

[l_e_g_e_n_d]

That's a perfectly valid point of view, although I don't see it that way. This is more of a philosophy that I've learned as I've gotten older. A relationship doesn't have to last forever for it to have value. If the exclusive relationship is working in the here and now, and for the foreseeable future, I'm able to enjoy it for what it is. That doesn't mean I expect my girlfriend to cheat, I don't. But I also realize that there are no guarantees in life.

I view relations as temporal, but not from a cheating perspective; rather people growing apart having learned the "lessons required" of the connection.

But with cheating, I'm not so forgiving. I don't give free passes due to "biology." We are all responsible for our behaviors, fickle women especially.

Once laws start exonerating female criminals due to their whimsicalities, then, maybe, I may rethink my position.

 

[taiyuu_otoko]

To all the seasoned guys both in and out of exclusive relations: what is your opinion?

I've had a few long term relationships (more than couple years). I'd be surprised to find out if any of them cheated.

I've also been the other guy a few times, although never with a married woman.

But, not to be a d!ck, I believe the question "are there any loyal women" misses a couple of variables.

Namely that a girl will much more readily cheat on a guy she's in a relationship that she doesn't feel much attraction or respect, but she'll be much less likely to cheat if she values and is attracted to the guy she's with AND he's made it very clear what his boundaries are.

Not to mention that just in the united states, with 320 million people, there's bound to be a few that were each others first and haven't strayed since, so technically, the answer has to be "Yes, there are loyal women" based on simple statistics.

On the other hand, "loyal" may not be the best descriptions in many of those. If a women believes she's going to hell if she cheats, her behavior is in her best interest, and might be described other than "loyal."

However, another question might be "what would it take to create a situation where a woman wouldn't dare cheat on me, and would it be worth it" might not even be valid. It could be that there are too many variables out of our control.

Perhaps ALL men and women would cheat under the "right" circumstances, but many of those are highly improbable, so they never actually cheat.

My own belief is one can only do one's best (maintain high value, set clear boundaries, sort and vet as well as possible ) AND be ready just in case something goes south.

 

[PeasantPlayer]

Maybe, fact is we all won't meet that one for us in this lifetime for whatever reason

 

[BeExcellent]

One dude says he makes $750,000 a year. The other dude says he makes more than that. Both dudes walk into a bar making that much and worry about a woman being faithful to them.

Sheesh would you goof balls knock it off with the **** measuring contest? I mean it's cute but I'm starting to think y'all are sweet on each other chasing all over the bloody forum

 

[bigneil]

I now strongly suspect that l-e-g-e-n-d = ImTheDoubleGreatest.

 

[ChristopherColumbus]

Don't get lost in the metaphors @Legend. For example, say you 'invest' in a relationship, this is just a manner of speaking. Do not run with this language and then start reducing all human interaction the level of the market place. As important as the market may be, it is peripheral to a man's life...NOT the central concern.

 

[l_e_g_e_n_d]

I now strongly suspect that l-e-g-e-n-d = ImTheDoubleGreatest.

Now that we got your annual income from $750k down to $455k, let's delve further into your "predicament."

A contract programmer like yourself contracts jobs and is likely to be employed a maximum of 26 out of 52 weeks per annum. You do have to secure jobs, correct? Twenty-six weeks of actual work per year (not including advertising, soliciting new clients, and networking) is generous and would mean you have a very successful practice.

Accordingly, your $455k annual income has now fallen down to $227.5k.

You are now my bltch.

 

[BeExcellent]

In all seriousness back to the original question posed.

Yes.

But it is becoming more rare with each stratification of each generation which I find unsettling for my children. It's tougher to navigate for younger singles I think, but I think human emotion is not irreducible to logic.

Women who love you deeply will exhibit loyalty.

There are women who will be loyal out of their morality and character.

There are women who take seriously the loyalty of the marriage covenant. Those women are mostly married.

There are women who exhibit all those things combined.

But humans are irrational, unpredictable and dynamic, life itself is uncertain. You can never absolutely remove risk in human relationships.

You can a lot to reduce risk. All contracts carry risk and remedies to manage risk. You can screen & vet. There are lots of methods...the set boundaries method, the make expectations clear method...those are to me control seeking. I don't look to control or be controlled. My philosophical approach is very simple. Give lots of rope & observe. Do they hang themselves? Extend trust then verify through observation. Problem obviously is that past performance doesn't equal future result. So it will always be an exercise in faith.

Some are loyal for a reason, some for a season & some for life. You can't always tell who is who. You can't remove all risk. At some point you let go & surrender to emotional investment in another human being and love because you choose to love. It is vulnerability that leads to intimacy.

I find this to be a rhetorical question. To me the answer is obviously yes. Loyal ride or die women do in fact exist. I know many including myself.

Practical question: Where are they?

Doesn't matter until you are ready to take the risk inherent in the endeavor.

 

[l_e_g_e_n_d]

Cannot personally confirm that loyal women exist. All of my LTRs cheated(proven) and all of my STRs dated concurrently and/or admitted to cheating on prior men. I date women attractive enough to have plenty of options though.

I still believe loyal women exist as an act of faith based only on uncorroborated observation.

Something to consider: If ALL your past exclusive relations cheated on your and had BPD or other mental illnesses, is the problem with women or with your ability to vet them properly?

 

[Bingo-Player]

i havent had time to read through all the comments but my perception is this

you live in your own reality - if you are persistently paranoid a woman is going to cheat on you then chances are you will probably run across one that will

women are a gamble , relationships are a gamble, LIFE is a gamble .......you find a woman that ticks as many boxes as you can one that makes you realise they arent all the same

when you find this woman she SHOULD feel exactly the same way as you do and therefore you enter a dual reality with her

a reality where cheating would shatter you both

ive dealt with loads of bum women but ive always been able to see it comming and take the necessary action before anything terrible happend

women arent all the same , good ones are rare but they do exist

 

[Tenacity]

Throughout my life, within the context of exclusive relations, I believed there were a few quality women with self-restraint and -control, but with a few recent experiences, I am beginning to believe that all women under the right circumstance, emotion, and environment can and will cheat on you. The cheating to which I refer may not be physical but also emotional (bonding with other men, etc).

To all the seasoned guys both in and out of exclusive relations: what is your opinion?

Legend I think you are starting to come around to what I've been saying since I got here 2.5 years ago, and that there's a SHIFT in the market that creates circumstances that are beyond our control.

Here's the thing, and I'll try to keep this as short as possible.

- We are NO LONGER in a Patriarchial/Conservative dating/relationship market. In that market you had pre-defined roles of Masculinity and pre-defined roles of Feminity. You had order and structure. The men knew their place and the women knew theirs, and they EXISTED together because each one was a requirement for the other's survival.

- That market is GONE.

- Right now we are in a Wild Wild West in terms of the current dating/relationship market for the 18 - 40 year old range, where there's no defined definitions of Masculinity anymore, no defined definitions of Feminity anymore, getting pregnant out of wedlock is no longer a problem, getting pregnant by multiple loser dudes is no longer a problem, being a LOSER GUY with no ambition in life is no longer a problem, being GAY is no longer a problem, etc., etc.

- ADD on top of this the Fast Food Dating Environment of POF, OKC, Tinder, Facebook, and other Social Media websites...and you just have CHAOS.

Nobody is LOYAL to anybody anymore Legend because, quite frankly, why should they be?

* A chick can find another Legend within a week by just logging into a Social Media channel, matter of fact, another Legend is probably in her INBOX right now.

* Just like Legend can find another chick like HER within a week and matter of fact, that particular chick is in YOUR inbox right now.

It's the Wild Wild West. It's why marriage isn't working anymore. It's why people aren't loyal anymore. It's why women are flakey. It's why many guys have no ambition and are losers in life. There's no law and order, there's no structure, there's no rules........

So with that being said Legend, what I'm doing is just focusing on my Career/Investment aspects and continuing to have "fun" with women. I really honestly do not know if I'll ever do a legal tie-in (marriage or making kids) because I'm still operating in the Wild Wild West.

 

[mrgoodstuff]

Exactly. As long as their need for you to be the most attractive man in the room is met, she will be loyal.

Then she can get mad and cheat on you with a "ugly" guy.

 

[resilient]

... but that shouldn't mean complete control over emotion... just over the negative emotions.

Yes. Self-control is important, so you don't act on irrationality, become overly jealous, paranoid which with the pretense of mate guarding, actually has a reverse affect and pushes the person away as guilt is projected onto the significant other. The projection of fear decreases intimacy from the lack of trust/faith in the other person.

In the positive emotion of love we are connected to other people... perhaps even to the cosmos in some mystic way.

Agreed, when we give our body to someone sexually, we're soul tied, so it's logical to have that deep mystic connection.

...our own individuality is not the summit of existence. If two lives are truly intertwined, and have grown together, you will have a loyal partner.

Here's where I take issue with that.

As someone else mentioned in this thread, people change. You can start off a LTR or marriage with deep mutual respect and adoration for the other person. Travel 5-10-15 years down the line with that same persaon... that person evolves. We're not finite beings. There will be many life changes that will occur within the relationship (i.e. significant other loses a parent, grandparent someone meaningful in their life and undergo a grieving period, illness, debilitating illness, cancer, develop an addiction, etc.). These are black swan events to an extent (more so in how the person and couple respond to it with resilience or division). They don't have to be detracting forces, these events can actually strengthen the bond if communication is strong and emotions are mutually respected. If the feelings aren't respected, resentment is present with stonewalling, contempt, or criticism; the relationship will begin to rapidly breakdown and be open to temptations. Spidey sense becomes hyper-aware.

It takes two strong people with firm identities to emerge through the trials and challenges of life. If both emerge together, the bond strengthens with an improved defense against outside threats. Some have said vetting can help in this thread, but it's not bullet proof. Again, it comes back to free will, we all have the potential to stray despite seemingly having it all together.

The relationships is like a tower of Jenga blocks. You can take a few out and the tower will still stand, find an unstable piece after enough blocks have been removed and the tower comes crashing down. I'm trying not to be pessimistic here, but it's just the reality of intention. There can be moments in the relationship that are reinvigorating that I believe add blocks back to that tower. I'm becoming longwinded here, yet I believe two people can be interdependent, yet have strong roots in morals and ethics/values that may help guard against threats while giving their partner the freedom to continually self-actualize in parallel growth.

 

[l_e_g_e_n_d]

Legend I think you are starting to come around to what I've been saying since I got here 2.5 years ago, and that there's a SHIFT in the market that creates circumstances that are beyond our control.

Here's the thing, and I'll try to keep this as short as possible.

- We are NO LONGER in a Patriarchial/Conservative dating/relationship market. In that market you had pre-defined roles of Masculinity and pre-defined roles of Feminity. You had order and structure. The men knew their place and the women knew theirs, and they EXISTED together because each one was a requirement for the other's survival.

- That market is GONE.

- Right now we are in a Wild Wild West in terms of the current dating/relationship market for the 18 - 40 year old range, where there's no defined definitions of Masculinity anymore, no defined definitions of Feminity anymore, getting pregnant out of wedlock is no longer a problem, getting pregnant by multiple loser dudes is no longer a problem, being a LOSER GUY with no ambition in life is no longer a problem, being GAY is no longer a problem, etc., etc.

- ADD on top of this the Fast Food Dating Environment of POF, OKC, Tinder, Facebook, and other Social Media websites...and you just have CHAOS.

Nobody is LOYAL to anybody anymore Legend because, quite frankly, why should they be?

* A chick can find another Legend within a week by just logging into a Social Media channel, matter of fact, another Legend is probably in her INBOX right now.

* Just like Legend can find another chick like HER within a week and matter of fact, that particular chick is in YOUR inbox right now.

It's the Wild Wild West. It's why marriage isn't working anymore. It's why people aren't loyal anymore. It's why women are flakey. It's why many guys have no ambition and are losers in life. There's no law and order, there's no structure, there's no rules........

So with that being said Legend, what I'm doing is just focusing on my Career/Investment aspects and continuing to have "fun" with women. I really honestly do not know if I'll ever do a legal tie-in (marriage or making kids) because I'm still operating in the Wild Wild West.

While I do believe your assessment may apply to the majority of the market, I disagree that it applies to the whole market. I just have had great experiences with women in the past who were loyal/faithful/committed to me and the relation. I have recently come across a bad batch (due to my ignoring red flags and not vetting properly), which made me question my internal beliefs.

As for the inbox of replaceable "Legends." Sure a woman of 9/10 status will have good-looking, successful men at her disposal. But there is only one Legend. Just as there is only one type of girl whom I desire. We each have our idiosyncrasies that create a "connection" with another, that no other person in this world could mimic. I am not interested in any HB 8/9; rather I am looking a very specific type of HB 8/9, who is very unique and compatible with my nature. So when I find her (as I have in the past), she would have proven herself to be leagues beyond the harem, and is, thus, not easily replaceable.

 

[bigneil]

Now that we got your annual income from $750k down to $455k, let's delve further into your "predicament."

A contract programmer like yourself contracts jobs and is likely to be employed a maximum of 26 out of 52 weeks per annum. You do have to secure jobs, correct? Twenty-six weeks of actual work per year (not including advertising, soliciting new clients, and networking) is generous and would mean you have a very successful practice.

Accordingly, your $455k annual income has now fallen down to $227.5k.

You are now my bltch.

Wow, your math skills are so remarkably bad. Meanwhile I got 760 on my Math SAT (99.9%). You are assuming all contracts end after exactly 6 months and that there is a 6 month gap after they end that runs through next Jan 1? When I currently have 3 contracts overlapping?? I'm in business. I can hire people and take on more contracts. I can create jobs that pay $80K per year.

You are still insisting that if someone says "I make $100K salary" that it is AFTER taxes?? So if someone else makes $455K salary you are saying that is going to be NET?

You are saying that being paid $100K salary W2 where you can't deduct expenses is the same as making $100 per hour for 2000 hours 1099 where you can deduct expenses? Hint to readers: one is about 33% tax and the other is 9% tax after expenses (you live within the IRS definition of acceptable expenses).

Can you find one job ad that puts the offer in NET versus GROSS?? I will bet you $10,000 you can't find one.

I earned $1920 today from home. Most people would be happy with that. I'm happy with that. It's the most I ever made. Second most was when Microsoft paid me $81 per hour while Apple paid $90 per hour ($1368 per day).

Question for legend: You've said repeatedly you earn more. What is your job title? Mine is Software Consultant. What is your hourly rate? Mine is $80 per hour. If anyone wants help obtaining my salary, I can offer help. What is legend offering you?

 

[l_e_g_e_n_d]

I'm sorry I have to do this to you, you seem like a nice guy:

Wow, your math skills are so remarkably bad. Meanwhile I got 760 on my Math SAT (99.9%).

Bragging about your SAT score? Not your GRE/GMAT? Don't let anyone hear you.

You are assuming all contracts end after exactly 6 months and that there is a 6 month gap after they end that runs through next Jan 1? When I currently have 3 contracts overlapping?? I'm in business. I can hire people and take on more contracts. I can create jobs that pay $80K per year.

Too bad they didn't test for logic on the SAT, huh. Who said six-month contracts? I stated simply that you likely "work" six months out of the year. And since you admittedly employ a programmer at 80k annual, we will subtract 80k from 227.5k, leaving an annual AGI of $147.5k.

You are still insisting that if someone says "I make $100K salary" that it is AFTER taxes?? So if someone else makes $455K salary you are saying that is going to be NET?
You are saying that being paid $100K salary W2 where you can't deduct expenses is the same as making $100 per hour for 2000 hours 1099 where you can deduct expenses? Hint to readers: one is about 33% tax and the other is 9% tax after expenses (you live within the IRS definition of acceptable expenses).

Study "Gross Income" and how to ascertain GI. A S/E individual does not declare their income plus a phantom ghost tax if they were W2.

You are augmenting your "tinyness" with income that you do not produce.

Question for legend: You've said repeatedly you earn more. What is your job title? Mine is Software Consultant. What is your hourly rate? Mine is $80 per hour. If anyone wants help obtaining my salary, I can offer help. What is legend offering you?

I'm a S/E VC. Look it up. Now you make $80 per hour? Did you not declare in the other thread that you earn $250 per hour? Can't even keep your story straight.

Now go get your shine box piker.

 

[taiyuu_otoko]

Doesn't matter until you are ready to take the risk inherent in the endeavor.

Not unlike Twain's thing on reading. "The difference between those who don't read and can't read is nothing."

Loyal women are essentially non existent if you aren't willing to put in the effort to find and create a mutually beneficial relationship with one.

 

[wifehunter]

Not unlike Twain's thing on reading. "The difference between those who don't read and can't read is nothing."

Loyal women are essentially non existent if you aren't willing to put in the effort to find and create a mutually beneficial relationship with one.

Loyalty just magically happens, because you want it to?? Wtf?

 

[taiyuu_otoko]

Loyalty just magically happens, because you want it to?? Wtf?

How in the world did you get "loyalty just magically happens" from my post? I can happen if you put in the effort. You've got to:

1) Be worthy of loyalty. No woman is going to be loyal to a homeless guy who jacks off on the street.
2) You've got to spend a lot of time disqualifying unqualified candidates
3) You've got to take plenty of risks
4) You've got to be willing to be loyal yourself
5) You have to have top notch relationship game, capable of setting and respecting boundaries regarding deep emotional issues.
6) You've got to realize that your life is no longer wholly your own. Mutual loyalty is based on compromise and exchange.

Loyalty is possible but it comes at a cost, as do all other valuable things. Ain't nothing free.

However the RAW truth is that most guys are NOT HIGH QUALITY enough for a high quality women to choose to be loyal to. To them, there truly ARE no loyal woman. Just like there are no jobs for a high school dropout without any skills. If you want a high paying job you need to have a lot of high quality skills and a lot of other skills.

You can't buy what you can't afford.

Life ain't fair.