Is it Ever Right to Call a Woman a Second Time if She Doesn't Return Your Call?

[Tazman]

I think it depends on what you want. From my experience, persistance "may" get you laid, but not much else. If that's all you want, go for it.

It's not set in stone of course, but if a woman is truly interested in you, believe me, she will make it easy for you. My biggest downfall was simply not doing anything.

I think it's a myth that women require us to be ever vigilant in our efforts to get them. However, they will have you believe this when in fact all your interactions with them (the one's who were interested) were skillfully executed.

Women are as equally strategic (if not more so) in getting with the men they want, as men are in getting what they want. If she's expecting your call you better believe she isn't going to miss it, at the very least she'll be sure and run into you if she was unable to return your calls for some reason.

I think the amount of effort you put into trying to get a particular chick directly relates to the amount of interest she has in you. More effort = less interest.

Think about it, striking up a conversation, getting a phone number, then calling to set up a date and leaving a voicemail is all you should need to do. You've done your part, ball's in her court.

 

[DjVelvet]

I think it depends on what you want. From my experience, persistance "may" get you laid, but not much else. If that's all you want, go for it.

It's not set in stone of course, but if a woman is truly interested in you, believe me, she will make it easy for you. My biggest downfall was simply not doing anything.

Agree and disagree, from my experience from the past, i got into 3 LTRs (not just about getting laid) through persistence (Not to be mistaken with desperation). They do not have high interest in the beginning. During the dating stage, some of them flakes, some of them do not show high interest initially. Through confident persistence, they somehow or another break down their defense and we were together.

(Please do not add the comment saying that she has higher power than me after we are together. That's bullsh!t. LTR's a different ballgame.)

It's true that women make it easy for you when they like you. I'm charming, but not to the extent of celebrity lvl charming. I can't expect all girls to like me and show high interest when we just meet up. And if i am going to Next her just because she don't show high interest, I'm going to lose tons of future opportunites, definately not my style.

And trust me 101%, good quality women are worth being persistent about. Show no desperation and be a man at the same time. Its a thin line between persistence and neediness.

Please read Allen Thompson's articles. They are more realistic than some craps posted here.

 

[Mr. Me]

I don't leave a message unless it's a last resort. I don't think all women usually return calls when a guy first calls them anyway. I think you have to size up the situation. This just happened to me recently, let me see if your take is the same as mine.

Met a gal at a party, talked a bit, C+F, and asked for her number. She starts with "why do you want my number?" kind of stuff, so I know she's not that interested but I'm smiling and good humoredly bantering back. We volley back and forth a bit that way and then says "ask me for my number before you leave" but as I'm replying "that would be now" she's turned and gone off.

I'm at the party mingling for about another hour, not bothering with her at all. When I left, I happened to pass by her and said goodnight. She stops me and asks, "I thought you were going to ask me for my number?" and I cooly said "Well, you didn't seem interested when I did ask" and she says "I'll give you my number".

So I look at her and take out my pen and she giggles and gives me her number. When she giggled, I felt that was her saying "See? I got you!" I should've hemmed and hawed instead. And then, I should've smiled and said, "no thanks". But I took her number.

Anyway, everything she did meant to me that it wasn't very promising, but I'm going to try and see for sure, right? So almost a week later, I called her. It was a Thursday night, 9 PM. No answer, so I didn't leave a message. I tried her again Sunday night at 7, no answer, didn't leave a message. Monday night at 8:30, no answer, didn't leave a message and then Wednesday at 9:30, no answer. Hey, she's a schoolteacher and these are all school nights! You'd think she'd be around her phone one of those times. So by that point, I figured she screens her calls. She must give her number to everyone. I reasoned that she gave me her number because I wasn't chasing after her and it fed her ego or something to get me to take her number. But I didn't forget that originally she threw off my request for her number.

So on that last call, I left a brief message. This was just in case she doesn't answer calls from numbers she doesn't recognize. Just that I had called and here's my number if you'd like to return the call. No "I've been trying to reach you", no "I'd really like to see you", no "hey let's go out sometimes" no nothing but name and number, said with a bit of a grin in my voice. Now she knows it's my number and would also know it's me who tried reaching her a few times. So that message, to me, was my last resort. I'm not surprised that I haven't heard from her, and it's been a week since I left that message.

So now I put it to this community: I threw out her number. I don't see how being persistent in this case and calling again would lead to anything happening here, because I think I sized her up. Any thoughts on second calls?

 

[Frank2500]

Re:

I think I've heard quite a lot on this topic so far and I appreciate each of your responses. I'm quite amazed at the number of hits it has received-it quickly went from less than three hits last Saturday afternoon to almost 1,000 hits at the moment. I guess part of the reason why I feel reluctant to call more than once is because I've been played enough in most of my attempts at dating. If you guys remember the beginning of this post, I mentioned how I have even met some women in the past who have given me their numbers and indicated a semblance of high IL only to tell me later on when I try to reach them to set up a date, that " I have a boyfriend and I will not be able to meet you for lunch," like one said to me, claiming that "you are a very attractive guy, so it was hard for me to resist your offer. I hope that you can understand."


I also once met a woman at my former university's computer lab when I was in my mid-twenties. After I made my move, she gave me/wrote down not one, but two phone numbers. When I called her and we began talking over the phone briefly, she actually had some dude pick up the other line and say to me "Yo, don't call my girl no more, man."


So I've seen it all and I hope you guys can understand where I'm coming from. It's unfortunate that there are so many cold-hearted and insensitive women out there, yet at the same time they always claim that a good man is hard to find. It's a shame that good men in general have to go through so much crap and so many women who behave this way before they ever end up finding one who could perhaps finally help them begin a relationship that would be healthy and would help their hearts to heal from all this pain and all these wounds.


I've done the calling back two and three times before. It for the most part haven't made much of a difference for me and at my age and at this point in my life, I just feel as if I've past that stage of trying to chase women down. I have been through so much pain and my heart definitely needs a break after all these years, from all this madness. I just want to meet a woman who for once acts "normal."

 

[mzilla2]

Mr Me:

I think your initial call timing was right, however, I would have left a message on the second call and stopped calling after that: while it's possible that a chick with high IL might return your call after 4 calls, it's very unlikely. Making no more than 2 calls will help you weed out the genuine from the fakes.

And the 4 calls showing up on the call display prolly freaked her out, as she didn't have your #, and couldn't put the number to your name until after 4 calls when you finally left a message; IMO at that point most chicks would read that as a sign of desperation or creepiness. I should add that its a safe assumption that ALL women screen calls, have caller ID and secure voicemail and are experts at exploiting all telecommunications - they do not "lose" or "miss" messages.

Persistentence comes to play when a chick is returning your calls, but not making plans with you: In that case, drop contact for a few weeks and call again - she might just bite!

 

[mzilla2]

Frank, I hear ya but thats why this site exists - women are not "normal", in as much as we like to hope they think about things in the same manner men do... I would say your one call rule *might* be limiting some possibilities for you due to womens' inherently fickle nature.

And don't look at the rejections or unreturned calls as a failure so much as rather look at you pulling the numbers as a success! I mean, you've got chicks with boyfriends giving you their number - you're the man IMO!

 

[Mr. Me]

mzilla, thanks for that.

I hear you, yet I'm thinking "needy/desperate" comes off from a guy calling the next day and then calling 3x a day, leaving messages all over the place. Me, I called a week later and then 3x spread over the course of another week, finally leaving a simple message. I guess it depends on the gal if she sees that as needy or as someone intermittently trying to reach her.

All women screen you say, and I don't argue that except to say it's not all. If women are giving their numbers out to guys that they want to see again, then there are going to be those women who likewise expect they'll be answering calls from numbers they don't recognize. There's a woman I'm dating currently that did just that when I called her some time after obtaining her number.

Concerning the woman I posted about previously, given all the indications that made me dubious about her, I was giving her a chance to show me if she was indeed a screener or not; someone having no intentions of communicating further when she hands out her number.

Had I left a message on the second call to her, I'd be going up against the popular custom of women being reluctant to return calls to men they haven't even had a date with, let alone not spoken to on the phone, and I'd be left in the dark never knowing if she was of that category, in which case another call to her may have been warranted, or continue on to see if she was a screener, in which case I'd be more confident in tossing away her number, and not leaving me to be a victim of circumstance but rather having a more accurate assessment of the situation.

 

[jophil28]

THis is how I see it.
A woman's initial interest level is not "on or off" like a man's .
David D puts it well - " Her IL needs to be slowly dialled up" (like turning one of those big volume controls on an old radio) , and you can only create a limited level of interest on the first night that you meet her . (I can hear STR8UP shaking his head already -)
ANy overt displays of high IL from her, that you may observe on the first night, mean little in the long haul.
Sometimes men assume that her gushing means that she wants to f**k . NOT SO ! It is usually the case that she is simply in "party mode' .That flirty gushy stuff is her flirty "party trick"...which is designed to draw you into her frame and her game.
If you do not believe that this gushy stuff is just an act, then ask yourself how many times have you boned a woman who pulled this on the same night . Low score, guys ??

A few regular posters will disagree with my next statement, but it is true from my experience.

After your initial encounter (and in the following 48 hours ) any IL that she had in you starts to subside RAPIDLY . Two days later she will be barely able to recall what you said to her and what you looked like. Additionally she is subject to the usually wacky women thinking the next day ."He is probably a - player/pedophile/ stalker/ jerk/tax avoider/ internationsl thug / drugger or smooth talking vegetarian who is too weak to cut meat. She is likely to also have you on the witness protection program, or on weekend detention for some moderately dramatic felony....


SO, three days later. when you call, all her emotions that you triggered on the first night have subsided and she is now convinced that you are a "suspect" in any one of a number of ways depending of the creativity of her anxiety driven imagination.
(WE men NEVER realize the full extent of woman's fears)

Now we have a classic dilemma. You, the pursuing male, are planning to call a woman whom you do not know, and who does not know you. In the absence of evidence about you she will have inserted her worst imaginings.
Your IL remains intact but hers has dimiinshed BECAUSE the triggers which created it were removed when you said goodnight to her a couple of nights ago.
THis explains ,perhaps, why she was all over you when you met, and then does not return your call three days later .The Volume knob has returned to close to the zero position.

What to do ? THis is what works for me - EMAIL !!

Connecting with her the next day or within two days via email with some brief but skillful C&F is magic. It dials her up again before her IL hits baseline.
It also give you TIME to plan your next strategy ..You can set the pace and the style of convo.

THis also almost eliminates the possibility that she will not pickup or blow you off when you do call her. You can discuss via email WHEN you plan to call her. She will be expecting and anticipating your call.

I get great results with this strategy.

 

[mzilla2]

Some good observations Jophil, I'll mull 'em over.

 

[guru1000]

This comes down to who you are.

I have a real ****y and arrogant demeanor. I say things like "When was the last time a good looking guy got your number within 15 seconds of talking to you??" or I'll convo for 30 seconds and then take her on the first date saying "I dont call for first dates, we go now or you'll never have a chance." or "If i dont call you within the next few hours , it just means I'm not too interested." or "I dont call women ,they call me".

I get responses like "You are so arrogant" or " You are the ****iest guy I ever met" or "I can see you are used to getting your way" or " I can see you are used to getting spoiled by women"

I dont use lines, I say what and how I feel at the moment.

So naturally with who I am, i could never call twice. Usually if i do call , it will be within the first few hours of getting the number and I'd say something like " You know why I called you within the first few hours? Because I can."

Calling twice contradicts me and my style. Everyone's demeanor and game is different. You have to do what works for you.

 

[JeeperCane]

I guess I'm a little late to the thread, but from my experiences, with all the forms of communication today, people delete voice mails and emails by accident more times then you would think. I know I do it with my personal emails and voice mails because after a long day at work, the last thing I want to do is listen to or read all the ones at home.

That said, from my experiences with women and their own absent-mindedness, if I'm really interested in her, I'll wait two or three days after the first attempt, leave another voice mail/email/etc and then THAT IS ABSOLUTELY IT. One failed return can be chalked up to a mistake. Two and you need to move on. I think we may have our guards up a bit too much at times. Another follow-up, if you really want to, isn't a problem IMO.

 

[Frank2500]

Re:

I'm more inclined to agree more with guru, although our approaches are different in the sense that even if I do the C+F, I don't give off that in your face arrogant style when I make a move. Nonetheless, I have given mny additional reasons why I feel reluctant to call more than once these days. I've done the calling more than once things many times before and it really hasn't made much of a difference at all. The fact in all of this is that if the woman does really intend to give you a chance, you won't have to be chasing her down as much. It would just be a welcome change for me to at least meet a good, down to earth, sensitive and non-shallow woman for once in my life. I've come across way too many of the bad ones and I probably still would end up meeting a lot of them along the way, which is why I also have to continue maintaining that edge I have developed as a result of my experiences and also thanks to the help of this site.


If I may digress here for a little bit, those of you who are gym regulars, do any of you agree that quite a good number of women in gyms seem to be quite shallow and superficial? For some reason, many women in gyms seem to behave as flaky and shallowly as those in clubs. Gyms seem to attract a lot of those same kinds of women.

 

[Martin Shabazz Jr.]

You know sometimes its the ego talking. Frank the tank has a rule that says he won't call a girl second time but alot of it I think is ego invested by thinking: "I am adonis, if this chick doesn't call me again why should i waste time with her, she should be climbing on high mountain just to be with me!". That's fine attitude to have but then again some other guy will be getting to butter her muffin that very night because Frank didn't even bother to call and she had nothing else to do.

The reality, it doesn't matter how attractive and charming you think you are, if you don't get a good rapport with a woman, she isn't going to neccessary view you as if you are a god and therefore she doesn't owe you anything.

People say being presistence is an AFC trait but its only if you have the AFC mindest of desperation that it will be a turn off. If you call her again from a position of power and let her be known that you want to see her and through your words, you are a better catch then the other suiters she will know exectly where you stand and who you really are. As you build more rapport, her attraction with you will be higher and therefore during that time if she doesn't return your calls, then you know all hopes lost.

But I will repeat myself, early on, a woman doesn't owe you anything. I believe that little rapport early on in the seduction phase (while getting her number) results in situations like this. So intead of just asking a woman for her number, talk to her a little bit more, get her excited about you and laugh at your jokes, tighten that part of the game that needs to be tighten and you won't worry about her not returning your call.

Good post.

One thing that the game and others with more game than me have taught me is the number is really just a number. It is just a means of getting in contact with her. Nothing more, nothing less. When upon first meeting her, if neither of you are pressed for time, take the interaction as far as you and her are comfortable taking it. That's where the term "insta-date" comes from.

I think guys have a tendency to treat the number like one of Willy Wonka's golden tickets; often times out of insecurity. They are insecure about escalating the situation. Maybe they are still partially jacked into the matrix and believe that they need to call and go on a certain amount of dates before
they can get sex.

The thing is when you escalate on the spot you stand a higher chance of rejection because you are calling the girls bluff. You could have just played it safe and went for the number and probably got it. But you would have either never known whether she was truly interested or didn't have a lasting enough effect on her to register as anything more than passing entertainment.

 

[Tazman]

I don't get this whole women aren't "normal" and they're "absent-minded" etc. They are very normal, but they have leverage over most men because we are expected to initiate approaches. They behave this way simply because they can, the demand for f-ckable women is much higher than the demand for male providers, especially in places where women are able to obtain resources with relative ease. If it were reversed we'd behave the same way, why wouldn't we?

I've seen what interested women go through just to get a certain guy to approach them, let alone go out on a date. With these women, they let their guard down after you initiate the approach, phone call and set up a date. They don't just forget about you and move on because you didn't meet their quota of initiated calls.

When you approach a woman, she knows instantly that you want to f-ck her and she will make it easier or harder depending on how much she likes you and how you compare to other prospects, it really is that simple. If she doesn't even bother to return your call she's going to make you jump through hoops, if even that.

I think Frank2500 wants to find a woman he doesn't have to work "hard" to get, that's going to be difficult unless you really strike a particular woman's fancy, but it's not impossible, in fact it's the only way I got laid.

It's up to you, do you want to be with a woman who likes you upfront or do you want to play the game of "I'll prove to you I'm better than the other men in your life because you're worth more than me".

 

[Frank2500]

Re:

Tazman, thanks for sharing your perspective as well. Trust me, if there's any man in this country who has worked extremely hard for many years to get with a woman after getting her number, it is me. I've done that for several years and believe me, at least as far as I am concerned (based on my own personal experiences) no matter how hard you work for certain women, you won't get anywhere if they don't want to give you a chance. So this has nothing at all to do with me not wanting to work hard but rather my disappointment that for much of my attempts at dating, I've tended to often meet the bad ones. I am disappointed and also amazed that in this country, there appears to be such an over supply of really bad, cold, arrogant and insensitive women out there and that a man for the most part has to go through so much crap before you could even meet a decent one.


Basically, what I'm saying is that I've past that stage of chasing women down because of my experiences and also my age. At 29, I'm not that young anymore. Like I had said, if I were still in my early 20s, that would have been different. But I have reached a stage in my life where I too have to set some standards and I'm a bit tired with the shallow game players out there. I deserve a lot better and I'm not going to settle for less ever again.

 

[the_absolute]

I had made a long post about this. It was deleted because my age wasn't showing up at the time.

The gist of it was:

Never leave a message on an answering machine/voicemail when following up a contact close. You can call a couple or three times if she doesn't answer, she doesn't have your number anyway so isn't specifically not answering your call.
If you don't get her the third time: TEXT. Say "Hey, (your name) here, call me back" or something.

If she doesn't call, bail out. You'll run into her again at some point, then you can tell her you're not sure you like her any more, you don't like people who are rude, after all. Make a solid date for coffee and tell her to send you a picture. Don't call her before the date just show up exactly on time.

 

[Frank2500]

Re:

When a woman gives me her number, I don't expect to call her without leaving a message and I don't have the time nor the patience to be given the run around and to be played games with at this stage in my life. I've dealt with that enough already. Aside from not calling more than once, even if I called her twice or three times, (which I absolutely won't do) I see no reason at all to text message her if she's not responding to my calls in the first place. When you talk to a woman and she gives you her number, she realizes 90% of the time when she gets a call from an unfamiliar number that it may be you calling. So all of the unnecessary game playing is pointless. If she's willing to give you a chance, you'll know from the first call and you won't have to be chasing her down. I've past that stage and I deserve a lot better, so I stick to my original point.

 

[the_absolute]

When a woman gives me her number, I don't expect to call her without leaving a message

Bear in mind you are talking to a void, so your message would have to be either extremely businesslike - which would possibly divert away from the spontaneous attraction she thinks prompted her to drop her contact defense - or very charming, which is quite difficult to pull off without seeming fake (you're faking it, you're talking to a void) and it's VERY easy to slip up on any kind of phone message, and it's there to be listened to again. Believe me, a phone message can totally destroy the image she has in her mind from having met you the other night in a social setting. Any diversion from that image (apart from a positive/growing one) is a negative and probably a disqualifier.

and I don't have the time nor the patience to be given the run around and to be played games with at this stage in my life.

Games like she lost her phone charger or is a chick so doesn't always carry her phone?

I've dealt with that enough already.

So you're not doing something right. Maybe you should consider not leaving phone messages until she has invested in you somewhat....

Aside from not calling more than once, even if I called her twice or three times, (which I absolutely won't do) I see no reason at all to text message her if she's not responding to my calls in the first place. When you talk to a woman and she gives you her number, she realizes 90% of the time when she gets a call from an unfamiliar number that it may be you calling.

Is it possible that she gave her number to a few different guys? How about she gets a LOT of calls anyway? She is a Hb 8-10 after all, and therefore will be getting calls A LOT. The reason for texting her is as follows:
It's not that she's not responding to your calls, it's that she didn't answer her phone. Maybe it's broken or dead or whatever. You are a dominant and of high value but are also at least moderately persistent at this point. You've made a selection and intend to at least follow it up. You are texting her with a COMMAND. "Hey, Call me."
Don't assume what a woman "realizes" about her phone, and frankly if you think it's a pain in the ass to listen to ringtones up to three times for a total of about one minute as opposed to leaving a voice message and risking displaying lower value by seeming over familiar or awkward, or just "different on the voicemail" and not getting your mark, then I think your cost/benefit analysis could use some work.

So all of the unnecessary game playing is pointless.

Aren't you posting on a forum about running game? It's ALL game, bro. If you can't play it how can you expect to get the prize?

If she's willing to give you a chance,

NO, it's YOU who is giving HER a chance. Always. You CAN spin her not answering her phone to your advantage in some cases, since unreliability and flaky behaviour is definitely a display of lower value,

you'll know from the first call and you won't have to be chasing her down. I've past that stage and I deserve a lot better, so I stick to my original point.

Actually I've got to say that even after she answers your call and, say, you chat on the phone, leaving her a phone message at such an early stage can still really **** things up for you. Also, I have to take issue with you saying what "you deserve". i usually hear women using that phrase "I deserve more" etc. In fact, sir, you can only tell what you "deserve" by looking at what you GET. If you don't play the game you don't deserve the prize, simple enough logic.

If you just want to get a girlfriend or something, so be it, but if you want to have your choice of any number of the hottest women in your city, my advice might be worth something.

edit: Really hot chicks with serious game in their play are WAY more satisfying to conquer, plus the wind-up period sends your testosterone and epinephrine levels way up which, as long as you can objectify your emotional experience, will make you that much more attractive to ALL women, simply through chemistry. Chicks with game are often dosing you with their own brand of nature's viagra or whatever you want to call it!

 

[Mr. Me]

Is it possible that she gave her number to a few different guys? How about she gets a LOT of calls anyway? ... It's not that she's not responding to your calls, it's that she didn't answer her phone. Maybe it's broken or dead or whatever.

Or maybe she's in a coma, or she's flown off to help the Sisters of Mercy in India for the week, or she's too busy feeding her cats.

Let's assume that, as per the example above, she's a gal that's giving her number out to lots of guys. But she's not answering her phone? You have to ask yourself: Why is she giving her number out so much if she's not going to answer the phone? It's because she's not giving her number out because she wants to be called by these guys, she just likes the ego strokes they give her when they call.

Sooner or later there will be one guy that they do want to see, and that's when she'll be answering her calls instead of letting it go to voice mail, at least until she knows his number. Either that, or she will scramble to return his call.

In this thread I see this thought that a guy should work on a woman who has low interest in him, because some day she may have higher interest in him, so he should not next her.

Yet, by not answering his calls and not returning his phone call when he does leave a message, she's next'd him.

So you take a woman with low interest and if you do hear back from her, and if she does agree to a date, and if she does happen to keep the date and go on a few more (which all of this is unlikely anyway), you may get her interest up a few notches, but all along you have to keep an eye out for why a gal with low interest would go out with you in the first place. Is she bored and you're simply better entertainment than her cat? Is she looking to make someone else jealous? Is she a gold digger? Is she just looking to be taken out so that she can meet other guys while you're in the bathroom? What's her motive if she's not all that into you?

And let's say you do rev up her interest after some time and now she's finally moderately interested in you. The question becomes, why have you spent time and energy on a woman who's, after all this time, only moderately interested in you? On the slim chance that she'll become highly interested? I'd rather skip over those that aren't that into me and go out several who are.

so your message would have to be either extremely businesslike - which would possibly divert away from the spontaneous attraction she thinks prompted her to drop her contact defense - and it's VERY easy to slip up on any kind of phone message,

It seems to me that if you talk too much in a message, you're more likely to slip up, being that the less you talk, the less your chances are of saying something stupid. So I think that when you do leave a message, it's best to be "businesslike" if that means it's just your name, number and the request to call back, put in a casual, affirmative tone. I don't think doing that puts a woman off attraction. Coming off as indifferent, if she's interested in the first place, getting that mixed message (you're obviously somewhat interested or you wouldn't be calling, but the message itself appears somewhat incongruent with that) makes it difficult to read you, and that's like catnip to them. Have you ever heard a woman tell you how she can't read you? I think that's very informative. Basically they're telling you this is what they do, read men. The minute a guy comes along they can't read, their interest gets spiked. Point is: you can't risk leaving messages that are anything more than businesslike, at least not in the beginning.

 

[the_absolute]

Yes the short message is best but still poses a risk. Obviously if you haven't established yourself as higher value than her in the first place there's not much point even calling.

The text is more to-the-point, if she's not answering, it's a COMMAND for her to call you. If she doesn't, like I said, you'll run into her again and will have established EVEN HIGHER VALUE because she "messed up".