I don't get PUA's

[backbreaker]

I'm a lot like zekko in this regard.

yesterday I was at a NA meeting and the chick I posted about a few weeks ago she brought her daughter, who is a little cutie pie, about 6 years old anyway and I commented as they walk din that she looks just like her momma and the girl said "oh thank you very much" and I said "i didn't say that was a compliment" #burn lol

and i can tell for the entire meeting that got under her skin. then she comes up to me after the meeting and she says that that is a compliment because my daughter is a doll. and in reality the girl is pretty, i was just ****ing with her and i figured i could joke with her like that and apparently i can't


but my point being, like, this is textbook PuA ****. now she's questioning herself now all i had to do was go in and sooth it over, get the number, **** her brains out . especially after sitting there poundering that **** the entire meeting.

but you know what, after the meeting i went to her and i apologized to her and i told her that i was just ****ing with her, and i would not have made that comment to her if i didn't think she was very pretty and could handle it. that made her feel much better. lol that's probably game in itself but that's not why i did it.

i did it because i felt like ****. i don't joke with women like that, not even my wife, that's just not who I am. i was just in a really ornery mood yesterday. I get like that sometimes. I had no right or reason to randomly talk **** to this woman lol.

And that's what I am realizing. PUA material isn't natural. whatsoever. I dno't get the guy who could do something like that and feel okay with himself at the end of the day. And what does that say about the woman that this **** works on? my wife would have told me to take my short ass on somewhere if i pulled some **** like that with her when i first met her and i tried to pick her up.


At some point you have to ask yourself.. what is more important? getting laid or having self esteem? see guys who come here and don't get ***** think ***** brings self esteem and it doesn't. Being a man who has values is where your self esteem is built and women are a by product of that. but when you start to do **** like talk **** about women to make them feel bad to **** them, how can you have self esteem doing that ****? how can you like the person you see in the mirror?


I guess what i am tryhing to say is not getting laid isn't the worst thing on the face of the planet. I'd rather be single than to stoop to some of the levels pua's will stoop to to get *****.

 

[Lexington]

Negs are neither good or bad per se. They are simply a tactic which can be used effectively if the situation would favor their use. It's like saying bullets are bad; that's not necessarily true.

Being a single mother and whatnot, this girl probably has some insecurities. Your comment obviously hurt her feelings. That's not really the aim of a neg as I understand it.

Consider a hot girl at the club who is near her peak SMV. Let's say she's 21, 22 and dressed to kill. She's hot and she knows it. She's got guys drooling over her. She's used to guys and girls being intimidated by her looks. Many of these broads have huge egos. Of course, many people would too if almost every person they met started kissing their a$$.

To make things worse, this girl is out with her friends and they're out to have a good time. Her emotions are on a high. Guys just stare at them and those that do approach make feeble attempts because they are so psyched out. Do you think a couple negs might work in this situation? I think they could be used effectively.

Obviously there has to be some attraction there; negs would be useless coming from an obese, poorly groomed, smelly loser. But, if you are in the "I'm considering f*cking you" category, they can help to move you to the "I want to f*ck you" category. You have to be calibrate them to the situation but they are good.

You ask what does it say about a guy who uses negs or a girl who responds positively to negs? One could rephrase he question to ask what it says about a girl who can't take a joke. Because at the end of the day, negs are supposed to be in good fun, not to destroy a girl's self-esteem.

Of course, that's not to say that most people couldn't benefit from a total annihilation of their egos every now and again to keep us humble......

 

[Mike32ct]

I never liked putting people down. I don't even like c&f.

I think being PLAYFUL is great. You can easily do this without making fun of her personally.

But I never understood the whole "ball buster" thing. I just don't get it. Sure, close friends can rib each other sometimes as a sign of affection (no homo), but doing it to strangers or people you hardly know makes no sense to me.

The PUA myth is that it's ballbuster or AFC wuss - no in between. I disagree. There is nothing weak about being respectful.

I'm probably just overly sensitive to it due to past bullying.

 

[Colossus]

Negs, c&f, hot/cold, all the PUA tricks are really just veneers for a lack of experience and masculine presence.

I mean I used to neg the pants off girls. It did work, to an extent....but now I just don't care. If I "neg" a girl it's incidental.

I really think most 'game' stuff is overblown and repackaged. This is referring to the manosphere and PUA sites in general. Just be the best, most masculine self you can be and have a dynamic understanding of female and intersex psychology. Experience, time, reflection.

 

[TheBrutalGourmet]

Do you think that the fact that her child was involved may have changed the whole dynamic? A neg that might have worked in another situation suddenly had new weight when her daughter was involved. I am a father and my mentality is not the same when my little girl is with me.

 

[Big Nuts]

NA meeting? Her self esteem was undoubtedly zero, her brain basically sponge brain square pants.......not sure how that would be a wise pick up move?

 

[backbreaker]

NA meeting? Her self esteem was undoubtedly zero, her brain basically sponge brain square pants.......not sure how that would be a wise pick up move?

the woman in question has about 9 years clean and has a masters degree in physiology. she doesn't have low self esteem. if i thought she had low self esteem i would not have said it. i was just playing around with her and took it too far.

 

[backbreaker]

NA meeting? Her self esteem was undoubtedly zero, her brain basically sponge brain square pants.......not sure how that would be a wise pick up move?

the woman in question has about 9 years clean and has a masters degree in physiology. she doesn't have low self esteem. if i thought she had low self esteem i would not have said it. i was just playing around with her and took it too far.


the only thing about her is that, and in retrospect i should have known, she's put on about 10-15 pounds the last year or so and she's pretty self conscious about it. but even still she's like 5'6 135 and has a banging body.

 

[FairShake]

Flirting is, essentially, light teasing with a sexual connotation.

In this case you weren't flirting with that compliment, you were just an insulting d!ck. There was no sexual connotation and it doesn't sound like she was friendly enough with you to engage in playful repartee.

Just awkward all the way around. "Negging" is fine but you need to be socially calibrated to pull it off. This place is not full of guys who can do that myself and yourself probably included.

 

[Slickster]

BB I like the intent of this thread but I think the story you give as an example is a little off.

There are a couple different things at play here.

Teasing is going to work in some situations and totally bomb in others. You may control some of the factors like timing and delivery but what if she just found out her sister died or something like that. Some guys have the gift and can pull stuff like this off and still come off looking like the nice guy.

It sounds like your delivery was off and you didn't convey that you were just joking with them early enough. A little coy smile and a wink at the Mom right after you said it might have had the reverse effect and come off as a subtle compliment. I'm sure it wouldn't be too hard to convince the little girl either. It's just like comedy. It's all about timing and delivery.

You are right on about the PUA stuff. I do see some guys just be brutal to stupid chicks and they lap that stuff up. It does reflect badly on both sides.

In your example however it makes me wonder about that Mom's character. Why can't this lady pick up on some pretty obvious and maybe a little flirty fun? Maybe your delivery and sense of humour was spot on but she's just a dimwit.

Either way I like that you apologized if you sensed they were offended. Especially for the little girls sake.

 

[backbreaker]

yeah i was a prick that was uncalled for. i have my moments.

the point was not so much about necssarily PUA's just, the whole jerk routine in general. even if i give you that this is not textbook PUA it is textbook jerk and you have a lot of guys who think you have to be a jerk to get laid, i even quoted danger saying that in another thread earlier today. i can't do that. i'm not a jerk and i feel like **** being a jerk. normal dudes aren't jerks.

I don't want the forest of my post to get lost in the trees. my point being simply that there is a school of thought that, the only way you can get women to notice you is to be uncaring / a jerk / a sociopath / mean / ******* and i just don't have it in me. that to me is not how normal people behave with normal women. whatever name you want to put on it.

In your example however it makes me wonder about that Mom's character. Why can't this lady pick up on some pretty obvious and maybe a little flirty fun? Maybe your delivery and sense of humour was spot on but she's just a dimwit.

keep in mind, this same girl pretty much asked me out on a date about 2 weeks ago, so she likes me, and that coming from me i can see how it stung.

again not one of my better moments. it sounded a lot better in my head than it did out loud. it happens.

 

[tryst type]

That remark was insulting but I've said worse, it all comes down to your personality and how you project such statements.

If you say something with the right sly smile and playful inflection you can almost get away with anything. It just has to be blatantly obvious you're being a playful jerk and the words almost never matter when it's being presented in the right way.

In that sense teasing does work if you have the right tone, projection, vibe, behind it to convey playfulness rather than offensive. But yes there are still people who aren't keen on picking up what you're putting down so you have to calibrate.

 

[Jitterbug]

You botched a neg completely and somehow this is a bad reflection on PUAs?

 

[nismo-4]

PUA tactics are more effective the more you're physically and/ or financially attractive. That's what they don't tell you.

Case closed.

 

[zekko]

At some point you have to ask yourself.. what is more important? getting laid or having self esteem? see guys who come here and don't get ***** think ***** brings self esteem and it doesn't. Being a man who has values is where your self esteem is built and women are a by product of that. but when you start to do **** like talk **** about women to make them feel bad to **** them, how can you have self esteem doing that ****? how can you like the person you see in the mirror?


I guess what i am tryhing to say is not getting laid isn't the worst thing on the face of the planet. I'd rather be single than to stoop to some of the levels pua's will stoop to to get *****.

That's pretty much the crux of what has bothered me about this place since I"ve come here. How can you compromise your principles by becoming a jerk/@sshole/douchebag and still retain your self respect? Unless of course you have no principles to begin with.

We are told to never appease a woman, or supplicate to a woman. But I can think of no greater appeasement than to transform yourself into a douchebag just to gain her approval. Compromise your whole sense of self just to get laid? - Now THAT is supplication.

The joke is that it isn't even necessary to act like an @sshole to get laid.

Now, I'm not saying every guy on here thinks it is necessary to become a jerk to get laid. But there is a significantly large segment, and the noxious influence of that argument permeates every corner of this place. Men are supposed to be the leaders, and if men will not act with honor, I guarantee you the women won't either.

Having said all that, I have no problem with negs. I don't think about negs though, I just think of it as teasing, I tease women a lot. They laugh and enjoy it because they know I'm not serious - which means I am not really being a jerk. If I was actually being a jerk, I WOULD mean it, and it wouldn't be teasing.

Regarding the original example, probably not a good idea to bring someone's children into it. I wouldn't even tease someone about having ugly children, or whatever.

 

[zekko]

I get what you're saying zekko, but you're veering close to the beta argument that Game (particularly jerk game) is phony and therefore beta in and of itself.

Not "Game" in general. But jerk game, yes, now that you mention it, jerk game does seem to be inherently very beta. The whole idea of I'm going to change myself into something that I'm not, that I don't even believe in, and the reason I'm going to do it is so that I will please women. Yep, sounds pretty beta to me.

If a guy is an a-hole and he gets plenty of women either because or in spite of it, well it's not my problem*. The beta boys out there doing their nice guy routines and buying gifts are running they're own shytty game.

Unlike seemingly everybody else here, I don't see real jerks running around doing spectacularly well with women. Certainly not with quality women. They may get some girls, but I don't see them doing any better than other guys who are simply cool, fun guys to be around, who also happen to be at least pretty decent looking.

I'd like to say that values and self-esteem and goals are the most important things, but when you strip it down life is all about sex and reproduction.

I know most PUAs consider "values" and "morality" to be social constructs that betas and feminists want to brainwash us with. But I know what I think, and I think there has to be certain values and morals that a society has, or it will collapse. That doesn't mean that I agree with the current crop of values that our society has - I think the current society is very oppressive overall, and lacking in freedom. Bottom line, I believe that you should think for yourself. But hopefully, you do have some morals and values that you think are important. But I know how many PUAs are, and I imagine I will be flamed for even discussing this.

 

[Lexington]

I want to know who these bad "PUAs" are that are promoting the idea that people turn into a$$holes. Certainly there are extreme folks who post on "Manosphere" websites/blogs etc. But most well-known PUAs (e.g RSD, Neil Strauss, Mystery, Krauser etc.) don't promote turning into a jerk. They promote adopting the positive aspects of the jerk and highlight the fact that jerks tend to get more pvssy than Nice Guys.

There are very few well-known PUAs out there that promote insulting women. As we've already established, there's a big difference between negs and flat out dissing someone.

 

[zekko]

But most well-known PUAs (e.g RSD, Neil Strauss, Mystery, Krauser etc.) don't promote turning into a jerk. They promote adopting the positive aspects of the jerk and highlight the fact that jerks tend to get more pvssy than Nice Guys..

You're talking about PUA gurus, and I agree most of them do NOT promote turning into a jerk. However, by promoting the positive aspects of jerks, by holding up the example of the jerk as the ultimate female fantasy, a lot of guys get the idea that being a jerk is the best way to attract women.
"Why pick and choose behaviors? If a jerk is what women want, why not just be a jerk?".

The smarter guru types like Pook make it clear that being a jerk has its downsides - women will tend to not want to stick with you. But a good deal of this forum, if not most of it, seems to hero worship the jerk.

Do we change ourselves when we work out every other day to improve our physique?

Do we change ourselves when we read or study something, to improve our intelligence?

So why is it, when we change ourselves by adjusting our behaviors.....suddenly it is bad to do so?

The first two points you mention are clear attempts to improve yourself.
How is acting like an @sshole an improvement in any way?
It doesn't improve yourself or the people around you.

If you want to improve yourself, act like a man. A responsible, confident, socially calibrated, masculine man. Hold that up as your role model, not the "jerk".

 

[backbreaker]

zekko took the words right out of my mouth.

Being a jerk has nothing to do with game. they aren't one in the same. I believe in game. i don't believe in being a jerk.

 

[zekko]

Recognize that doing what is in your best interest, in western civilization, is often referred to as being an @sshole. THIS is perhaps the best example of game there is or of being "the jerk".

Doing what is in your best interest is not being a jerk. In fact, if you are going to be in a position to help anyone else, or be a productive member of society, you have to be on solid ground yourself. You have to do what is in your best interest. There is no straw man.

THIS is the definition of "jerk":
"4a : an annoyingly stupid or foolish person b : an unlikable person; especially : one who is cruel, rude, or small-minded"
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/jerk

"5. Slang A foolish, rude, or contemptible person."
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/jerk

"offensive someone who does stupid, annoying, or unkind things"
http://www.macmillandictionary.com/us/dictionary/american/jerk_12

"4. Slang. a contemptibly naive, fatuous, foolish, or inconsequentual person"
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/jerk

"2. informal a contemptibly obnoxious person"
http://oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/jerk

Let me tell you a little secret about jerks. People don't like them.