I didn't think women could hurt me anymore

[SW15]

You lost me at "I met her on OLD"

Gentlemen how many times do I have to tell you THE WOMEN ARE ON THESE APPS FOR BLOODY GOOD REASON

Swipe apps are the bottom of the barrel for meeting people. However, they offer an illusion of convenience that a lot of people like.

It takes effort to go out into the world and approach strangers. A lot of people don't like the effort it takes to do that. For every 1-5 real world approaches I can make, I can swipe on hundreds of women. Swiping and texting might seem easier in theory. In reality, it is likely more inefficient than doing things in the real world.

Let's talk about that real world approaching for a moment.

When a man is doing real world approaching, he could be approaching women with swipe app profiles. It can happen with both non-bar approaching and bar approaching as I'll illustrate in a moment. Men who do real world approaching in bigger cities are often doing it in neighborhoods with a lot of unmarried people. That's a wise idea from a targeting perspective.

Men who do real world approaches in parts of a city with a lot of unmarried people could be doing non-bar approaches at grocery stores, on paths/in parks, in bookstores, in malls, in gyms/fitness classes, or on the street. When these men are doing their non-bar approaches, they don't know if they are approaching unattached women who are swipe app users. There's also a good chance they are approaching women in relationships who aren't with their boyfriend at that exact moment. There's a lot of inefficiency baked into non-bar approaching.

When men do approaches in bars, there's a better chance she's unattached and open to meeting new women as compared to randomly in non-bar venues. The women that men approach in bars could easily have swipe app profiles too.

The advantage of real world approaching is better screening upfront and the avoidance of a lot of bullshiit resulting from being in front of an electronic screen. Another thing that's really been bad for relational development in the last 15-20 years is text messaging. Text messaging de-personalizes the initial stages of interactions as compared to phone calls. I was cringing in reading about the texting that was happening in @FlexpertHamilton 's situation. All of this communication he described occurred over text messaging. Things could have played out somewhat similarly in an era where phone calls were the dominant medium. I could imagine some guy in the 1990s-2000s complaining about phone call issues too from a woman. On the whole, I still think phone calls are better than text messages, but good luck getting with trying to get women born in the mid to late 1980s or later to regularly have phone calls.

The best way in real life to avoid bullshiit is to only meet dates through a social circle. In theory, the social circle is vetting for crappy behavior like the behaviors @FlexpertHamilton experienced. A guy who only dates through social circle probably isn't dealing with the crap @FlexpertHamilton experienced. Social circle game has efficiencies built into it once the social circle has been created. The problem is actually creating that social circle.

In general, social circle interactions are better options in the shorter to medium to for finding a girlfriend. If you're looking for an extended relationship (1-5 years or more), your best bet for getting that with the least amount of grief and frustration is through a social circle. You won't have to do as many approaches in either non-bar venues or nightlife venues or take as many rejections. You won't have a miserable time on swipe apps.

For men with social circles, the problem with the social circle method eventually becomes sustainability as social circles get pissed at men who continually exchange girlfriends, even if the relationships are semi-long (1-5 years). A man might be able to pull 2 LTRs from a social circle without marrying one. After 2 instances, he will have typically bled the social circle dry unless he has a very expansive social circle. Most men with circles don't have an expansive enough circle to pull that off. Social circles are blue pill in general and would frown upon casual sex within the circle in most cases. This won't be a problem for a lot of men, since a lot of men are looking for a consistent sex partner and not necessarily looking to put up big notch count numbers.

The best way to meet women is through a social circle and the worst way to meet women is through swipe apps. In-person stranger approaching falls somewhere in between.

 

[kavi]

My blunt and to-the-point response to OP and others.

This is how it is and this is how it goes down.

Currently the woman has all the power in these kinda situations. For guys like you (and me and others) we dont get to meet too.many females so opportunities are hard to come by, and then we have to take those opportunities by smashing asap moving fast etc.

This is a problem. Its easy and simple whats happening here, the female doesnt really care she just wants to 'use' a guy for whatever experience and then discard him. She has all the power. When she reaches out after the first time you went straight to give her what she wanted, a good time, you didn't make her wait by first checking that she will stay in touch for a while and be stable but you gave her good romantic time straight away hoping that makes this a success.

I know it tough, but imo in today's market a guy needs to be rocksolid and making sure the female is stable and reliable before giving her the good romantic.time. better to talk and make her wait for s*x then she knows she cant just come and go and have her 'fun' with you at her convenience and 4then discard you.

Too.many guys are too eager to please and wanna take any chance for romantic fun instead of making her wait.

Ive had all these experiences which is why nowadays im all about letting the female know on advance what im about and i let them know im not interested in physical or romantic any of that until i first see that they can be stable for a while over text etc not blocking running away ghosting etc but being cool and.stable and reliable.

Ofcourse as guys we have been led to believe in some cases that we have to move fast and also we have been told that once we bang that chick good and quickly she will be inlove with us due to oxytocin blah blah and that winners move fast and losers move slow. But this is not how it is right now.

For those higher quality guys out there that are capable of keeping a womans interest my point is to deal with these type of problems you need to be rocksolid at the start and to some extent wait until the female gives up her game. This means not running out asap to take her out smash etc but waiting until she shows you that she is emotionally stable aint gonna disappear has been able to stay in touch consistently without drama for.some.time.

Bottom line is right now these women are all over the place in terms of their attention span and they only care about what THEY want and WHEN they want it. I high quality guy needs to adapt and not give in to it but to make her wait somewhat and take him seriously and she should be as a stable mature person.

Ofcourse this only applies to men.able to.withstand the difficulties of hard mode. He must.hold her attention and then make her wait this takes the excess power and domimance from her and balances things a bit more.

 

[BackInTheGame78]

It wasn't a good sign when it took her 3 days to text after the first date bang.

Usually in those situations my phone is blowing up early the next morning.

 

[corrector]

The best way to meet women is through a social circle and the worst way to meet women is through swipe apps. In-person stranger approaching falls somewhere in between.

Except for in @MatureDJ case, where other guys get hugs and you get left out, or in your case where this did not work for you (as you admitted in other posts). If the best way doesn't work then what's left?

 

[FlexpertHamilton]

Did you ever consider that MAYBE the way you saw her was the way she saw you? If that's the case, you shouldn't be bothered by this.

Of course, but casual or not that doesn't mean ghosting and disrespect is okay. Even when I end things with FWBs I do it in person and tell them we can still stay in touch.

Oh ok, so we're gonna play games and jump to conclusions, cool.

How is that playing games? I didn't respond because I genuinely did not want to respond and wasn't even sure if I wanted to talk to her again. Waiting 24+ hours to get back to someone is unacceptable, I've never done it in that context and no woman has ever done that to me before.

So you've already moved on from a relationship that didn't exist, and might not have any problems, because she's taking too long to reply...and furthermore you're considering ghosting her or starting a fight when/if she DOES reply...

Dude, what is this? Why are you creating your own problems?

I'm not sure what you're getting at. Not replying/ghosting after 3 good dates with good sex and connection is cruel and disrespectful, end of story.

You lost that 'frame' where you take the lead when you stopped to ask her what she was doing that weekend. You had established yourself as a leader, but now you were asking her to make decisions. Should've made plans for the weekend (plans you would do alone, if she doesn't come along), then tell her she can 'join' you.

I tried that already and have many times in the past. She literally said "do you wanna hang out again?" and i said "how about Saturday" but she had plans already for that day. Suggesting a day out of the blue without knowing their plans isn't any more "decisive". Confirming their availability first is completely reasonable. In fact, I sometimes even ask women "what is your schedule like?" and they literally send me their calender, which makes it easier to plan out days at which point I can say things like "okay let's do x on this day".

I know the grander point you're making though, regards to making plans and asking her to join. Sometimes I will say something like "hey I'm going to get groceries and go to the gym, i'd love for you to join". But I do not agree that asking her plans puts you in a submissive role. In this case, I genuinely wasn't sure what my own weekend plans were and if I even wanted to connect with her, hence why I asked. I might've been down to just spend a few hours with her during the day, hence why I wanted to know her plans. But going forward, I will keep in mind it's better to just make your own plans and invite them along.

The more authentic you become, the more of these women you will meet. Don't be dazzled because you finally find someone with a genuine connection. If you keep working on yourself, you will find that the women you attract are more genuine like you are, because you both move beyond the superficial.

Yes I agree. I've actually found this to happen with more and more women lately, because I present myself authentically and adhere to the idea "seek first to understand before being understood". I remember a couple years ago I literally took mushrooms with a girl I had only banged once and been on 2-3 dates with, and it was an amazing experience and I had more of those deep, genuine conversations with her.

Slow down cowboy, why? Cause she didn't text you for days, looks like you're very invested in her.

I'll say it again. Not getting back to someone for days (24 hours, now it's been 48 hours), is unacceptable. I already said this incident made me over-invested, because it hurt.

Nice guy rage when the woman doesn't respond to his expectations. For a man who doesn't give a sh!te, you sure took the time and energy to write about her and insult her

Incorrect. I already knew she was crazy before this. She's on 3 medications and she has taken tons of drugs and has told me all sorts of weird shvt she thinks that was rather disturbing. For instance, she picks at her scalp and fingers until they scab over. She's crazy bro.

The initial ghosting should have told you all you needed to know about what you were getting involved with. When dealing with girls like that you enjoy them whenever they come around but don't lose sight of the fact they're flaky as heck and will vanish just as quickly as they re-emerged.

Yes, exactly.

It's actually a sign of strength to be vulnerable. Admitting our flaws and learning from them can help us grow. Many people may appear confident on the outside, but behind closed doors, they face their own challenges. Some might be struggling financially or dealing with personal or business issues. The key is to understand that everyone has their unique journey. In the words of Soren Kierkegaard, "do it or don't do it — you will regret both."
Good luck.

I find that forums like this don’t always provide the most positive feedback and lead to piling on when a guy is down and monday morning quarterbacking

It has been my experience that our body kind of puts us into a fight or flight feeling when we feel someone (not just in a dating relationship but friendships) subtly rejects us. This is common and i can understand how you feel.

of course this will then make you try to figure out how to fix things because we are men thats what we do.

Women are wired differently as we know. Part of me believes that since they tend to seek attention more than sex itself (there are some women with high sex drives but most much lower than ours), that women prefer novel or unpredictable attention. This is why when you give them lots of attention they love it at first because you are new but it loses its value with time and becomes predictable

its sad but in the early stages on of the best ways to keep a woman is to make her think she can lose you…and the best way to do this is to genuinely be busy… i think you did ok in your waiting game with her but she was even better at outwaiting you

I respect that you are honest and don’t act like some wannabe emotionless alpha dude. I think that’s totally normal. We are human not robots. I also had someone like that a few months ago. Something about her made you like her more than others but as you already know it’s not in your hands.

Thank you 3 for being real about this.

i think by not texting her back after the date you were putting yourself in the **** boy zone-

I'm already an empathetic and kind person (not nice guy pushover, but genuinely kind). Some women have accused me of being a "lowkey" "light" fvckboy, but it's not my overall vibe. Anyway I disagree with this notion. You must wait a few days at least to follow up after a 1st date because you need to give her the chance to display her interest. If she doesn't reply in 3 days you should call her in about 5 or so days imo.

also be honest with what you want from her?

Casual lover/fwb with mutual respect and boundaries.

You lost me at "I met her on OLD"

Gentlemen how many times do I have to tell you THE WOMEN ARE ON THESE APPS FOR BLOODY GOOD REASON

Disagree. I've met some great women on swipe apps. This is a meme that women on OLD are somehow different. Not only do almost all women use them nowadays, but there's no real difference in the women on OLD vs "real life". Btw I am talking about Hinge, not Tinder, the latter of which tends to be a dumpster fire.

It wasn't a good sign when it took her 3 days to text after the first date bang.

Usually in those situations my phone is blowing up early the next morning.

Hmm I don't find much of a pattern there. Sometimes even if the date didn't lead to a bang or wasn't even that good they will text me back the next day or even that night but not have very high IL. It's obviously a good sign for them to be the first to reach back out and express interest in meeting again in the first place, and I do think waiting 3 days might be their way of not "looking needy" - women tend to follow a lot of "text game" in that regard. But obviously if it's super super high IL they won't play games, period.

 

[AmsterdamAssassin]

I know the grander point you're making though, regards to making plans and asking her to join.

I wasn't saying you were indecisive, but from what I read I sensed that this is a woman who enjoys when you take the decisions and she can just trust you enough to follow you.
To me, it's mostly like I would say, "If you don't have other plans, I'm doing X and thought you might enjoy coming with me." That way you don't presume she has nothing to do, but you do have plans of your own.

 

[BPH]

Of course, but casual or not that doesn't mean ghosting and disrespect is okay. Even when I end things with FWBs I do it in person and tell them we can still stay in touch.

How is that playing games? I didn't respond because I genuinely did not want to respond and wasn't even sure if I wanted to talk to her again. Waiting 24+ hours to get back to someone is unacceptable, I've never done it in that context and no woman has ever done that to me before.

I'm not sure what you're getting at. Not replying/ghosting after 3 good dates with good sex and connection is cruel and disrespectful, end of story.

I don't think you're equipped to have a casual relationship with a woman, I think you need commitment.

You're upset with this woman for having a life outside of her time spent with you, even though your intentions with her are recreational - so why are you this emotional about her treating you similarly?

People have lives, dude, if you're gonna throw a fit when a woman doesn't respond within 24 hours then you might want to consider what you actually want.

 

[Clockwerk50]

i think by not texting her back after the date you were putting yourself in the **** boy zone- I made several mistakes with a couple other women whom i wanted to still have in my life my issue was after sleeping with them i would ghost them thinking that was the right thing to do . Reality is you want to treat them well so they stick around - after the first date when you smash take her out and buy her breakfast this makes it look like she's not being used. i made a huge error by not doing this with a few of my plates and ended up losing them permanently .

Then after the date text to check up how she's doing - its not needy to care for someone lol

seems like you were too casual here and not leading - something which was a big part of my problem when i adjusted to daygame i was too casual and women mistook by casual vibe for not giving a **** about them and only using them for sex

also be honest with what you want from her? if you want her to be your girlfriend or want to hang out again just tell her and make the appropriate actions to do so or she will think you are not interested . When i was at university i was critiqued by women for being too needy i then tried to overcompensate this during my daygame era to being too nonchalant and wouldnt text back after having sex with girls to try and act cool - in reality it just lost me dates and plates and potential future girlfriends. Always put in effort- lead and initiate dates so she doesnt think youre just another ****boy

In OP's defense, he approached the initiation correctly and they way it is usually advised, allowing the woman to guide the relationship dynamic while investing in the interaction. Hypothetically, if he was ghosted—though women usually reach out within a week—OP still had a sexual encounter, which aligns with the forum's focus on sexual experiences. OP just seems disappointed that a promising connection didn’t progress and the issue appears to lie with on the woman.

As OP noted, she has had 50-100 partners, suggesting she knows how to play on men’s emotions to her advantage and know the dating game very well. Without knowing the specifics of their conversations or post-sex exchanges, it’s possible she charmed him by playing the victim, making him feel like a rescuer, or adopting a “mommy” role, providing nurturing care reminiscent of his childhood. She may have also positioned herself as a “student,” making him feel intelligent and knowledgeable like a professor. She could have played other roles that I do not know about. All of this could have created the illusion that he was the dominant player in the situation while she was actually doing most of the seducing.

A woman with such a history can resemble an escort or webcam model, adept at fulfilling multiples men’s fantasies. When the time is up, the customer can easily book another appointment to continue their fantasy.

Currently, in this interaction, by starting the flow of the relationship by sending the first text and then taking a step back, the woman changed her role from the pursuer to the perused. Ultimately, this situation highlights the complexities of the dating game and the psychological dynamics involved.

 

[FlexpertHamilton]

I don't think you're equipped to have a casual relationship with a woman, I think you need commitment.

You're upset with this woman for having a life outside of her time spent with you, even though your intentions with her are recreational - so why are you this emotional about her treating you similarly?

People have lives, dude, if you're gonna throw a fit when a woman doesn't respond within 24 hours then you might want to consider what you actually want.

Incorrect on both comments. B Not replying for 24 hours (and now 48+ hours after the next text) is not "being busy with your life". No one is too busy to spend 15 seconds to send a text, especially when they had a former habit of texting you first or texting you back quickly and then have a sudden change in their texting patterns. I can prove you're wrong with two thought experiments. The first is the classic "would a woman take 24-48 hours to reply to Drake?" Second, if you believe woman are "too busy" to text back, imagine telling them you're at the store and want to buy them a gift for something they talked about wanting. Watch how suddenly they become "fast texters" again. Women literally are glued to their phones 24/7 and text in the car, on the toilet, etc. No responding for 24 hours (especially for a text that warrants a response) means you're not a priority and they don't care about you. End of story.

On your 2nd point, also no. I don't care about commitment, I care about respect, boundaries, and consistency. And "commitment" does not guarantee they won't do things like talk to other men and "act single" (eg posting thirst trap pics on IG or going out with her GFs to clubs frequently, despite not "intending" to cheat, and I would regard those behaviors as a betrayal equal to or greater than actually fvcking a dude). I tend to find commitment pointless unless I know she's the type to not do those sort of things and will accept my standards and boundaries of acceptable behavior, which takes a lot of screening for a few months.

A married man can go cheat on his wife and not let it effect how he treats her, and she won't even know about it unless he fvcks up or continues to do it repeatedly (ie an affair). When women cheat, start to monkey branch, etc it causes an immediate pattern disruption that is palpable and you feel it in your gut. Women cannot seperate sex from emotion and when they get emotionally invested in another sexual experience with man they like more, they can't hide it. I've dated women casually before and this hasn't been an issue. It's only an issue when the dynamic suddenly flips because another guy came into the picture who is a priority over you. THAT's the problem. Women are free to see other men so long as it doesn't change how they treat me and vice versa. If they straight up tell me they're seeing other men that's 100% fine but I don't want to find out indirectly from being treated poorly and things pattern disruptions, extinction busts, ghosting, etc.

Also

so why are you this emotional about her treating you similarly?

I did not manipulate/ghost her. I was direct, honest, and sincere with her and I was ready to tell her my intentions and expectations.

 

[The Duke]

@FlexpertHamilton in a few years this will all make sense and you will be greatful for what happened.
This girl just wanted some sex for validation/horny/etc/revenge.

She's low value and not one you should have a relationship with anyways. Healthy minded women don't act this way.

Keep your chin up, and stay positive but more aware next time.

 

[New_Journey]

Incorrect on both comments. Not replying for 24 hours (and now 48+ hours after the next text) is not "being busy with your life". No one is too busy to spend 15 seconds to send a text, especially when they had a former habit of texting you first or texting you back quickly and then have a sudden change in their texting patterns. Women literally are glued to their phones 24/7 and text in the car, on the toilet, etc. No responding for 24 hours (especially for a text that warrants a response) means you're not a priority and they don't care about you. End of story.

It's not about commitment either. I talked about this with a friend. A married man can go cheat on his wife and not let it effect how he treats her, and she won't even know about it. When women cheat it causes an immediate pattern disruption that is palpable and you feel it in your gut. I've dated women casually before and it isn't an issue. It's only an issue when the dynamic suddenly flips because another guy came into the picture who is a priority over you. THAT's the problem. Women are free to see other men so long as it doesn't change how they treat me and vice versa.

Dude you are one of her plates, wtf is wrong with you? Are you this disconnected from reality? Did you really think you ****ing her a couple of times and texting she would drop everything and make you a priority? Are you that delusional?

 

[SW15]

This is a meme that women on OLD are somehow different. Not only do almost all women use them nowadays, but there's no real difference in the women on OLD vs "real life". Btw I am talking about Hinge, not Tinder, the latter of which tends to be a dumpster fire.

The Pew Research Center did some work in Summer 2022 (published January 2023) about dating app/site use in the United States.

30% of all US adults have used a site or app at some point.

53% of 18-29 year olds have and 37% of 30-49 year olds have.

Based on this data, there are a lot of people that aren't on apps and haven't been on apps.

It might seem when you're out in the field doing approaches that it's possible that a woman you approach in real life is on the apps. She may or might not be.

According to Pew, roughly seven-in-ten U.S. adults (69%) are currently partnered – that is, they describe themselves as married, living with a partner or in a committed romantic relationship. Of these partnered adults, 10% first met their current spouse or partner on a dating site or app, amounting to 7% of all Americans.

This is why approaching strangers in general is difficult. Most women are in a relationship at any given point in time when you approach them in a non-bar setting. In the bars, there may be more unattached and receptive women because bars are designed for meeting new people.

As for the stat about partnered people, this is mainly skewed by older people who met before dating apps and sites. I think the numbers would look different for the under 45 set in 2024.

1. The who, where and why of online dating in the U.S.

Online dating has made what once seemed like a foreign concept for many – striking up a conversation with someone they have never met on the internet – a

www.pewresearch.org

.

 

[FlexpertHamilton]

The Pew Research Center did some work in Summer 2022 (published January 2023) about dating app/site use in the United States.

30% of all US adults have used a site or app at some point.

53% of 18-29 year olds have and 37% of 30-49 year olds have.

Based on this data, there are a lot of people that aren't on apps and haven't been on apps.

It might seem when you're out in the field doing approaches that it's possible that a woman you approach in real life is on the apps. She may or might not be.

According to Pew, roughly seven-in-ten U.S. adults (69%) are currently partnered – that is, they describe themselves as married, living with a partner or in a committed romantic relationship. Of these partnered adults, 10% first met their current spouse or partner on a dating site or app, amounting to 7% of all Americans.

This is why approaching strangers in general is difficult. Most women are in a relationship at any given point in time when you approach them in a non-bar setting. In the bars, there may be more unattached and receptive women because bars are designed for meeting new people.

As for the stat about partnered people, this is mainly skewed by older people who met before dating apps and sites. I think the numbers would look different for the under 45 set in 2024.

1. The who, where and why of online dating in the U.S.

Online dating has made what once seemed like a foreign concept for many – striking up a conversation with someone they have never met on the internet – a

www.pewresearch.org

.

Yeah but how many of those women are on social media, which is basically the same thing? Plus, the %s are only lower for older women not younger ones.

How many women under 35 or so (who actually date men and have relationships) aren't on social media or OLD? That number is probably very low.

I do also question polls sometimes, women lie all the time, but it's an interesting data point to consider if it's true.

@FlexpertHamilton in a few years this will all make sense and you will be greatful for what happened.
This girl just wanted some sex for validation/horny/etc/revenge.

She's low value and not one you should have a relationship with anyways. Healthy minded women don't act this way.

Keep your chin up, and stay positive but more aware next time.

Thanks. I did not think she was high value and certainly not relationship material but I figured that didn't mean we can't still enjoy each others company and have a healthy and respectful albeit casual relationship.

I'm now of the opinion that low quality women don't even make for good casual partners.

I had a similar thing happen last year. A girl came over to my place and we had phenomenal sex and really good chemistry and laughed a lot watching stuff on Youtube and I really enjoyed her company. Then she ghosts me for 3 months for no reason and when she hit me back up she begging for sex with tons of dirty talk. I told her no and felt similarly hurt from that occurance too more than actual breakups.

 

[BPH]

Incorrect on both comments. B Not replying for 24 hours (and now 48+ hours after the next text) is not "being busy with your life". No one is too busy to spend 15 seconds to send a text, especially when they had a former habit of texting you first or texting you back quickly and then have a sudden change in their texting patterns. I can prove you're wrong with two thought experiments. The first is the classic "would a woman take 24-48 hours to reply to Drake?" Second, if you believe woman are "too busy" to text back, imagine telling them you're at the store and want to buy them a gift for something they talked about wanting. Watch how suddenly they become "fast texters" again. Women literally are glued to their phones 24/7 and text in the car, on the toilet, etc. No responding for 24 hours (especially for a text that warrants a response) means you're not a priority and they don't care about you. End of story.

On your 2nd point, also no. I don't care about commitment, I care about respect, boundaries, and consistency. And "commitment" does not guarantee they won't do things like talk to other men and "act single" (eg posting thirst trap pics on IG or going out with her GFs to clubs frequently, despite not "intending" to cheat, and I would regard those behaviors as a betrayal equal to or greater than actually fvcking a dude). I tend to find commitment pointless unless I know she's the type to not do those sort of things and will accept my standards and boundaries of acceptable behavior, which takes a lot of screening for a few months.

A married man can go cheat on his wife and not let it effect how he treats her, and she won't even know about it unless he fvcks up or continues to do it repeatedly (ie an affair). When women cheat, start to monkey branch, etc it causes an immediate pattern disruption that is palpable and you feel it in your gut. Women cannot seperate sex from emotion and when they get emotionally invested in another sexual experience with man they like more, they can't hide it. I've dated women casually before and this hasn't been an issue. It's only an issue when the dynamic suddenly flips because another guy came into the picture who is a priority over you. THAT's the problem. Women are free to see other men so long as it doesn't change how they treat me and vice versa. If they straight up tell me they're seeing other men that's 100% fine but I don't want to find out indirectly from being treated poorly and things pattern disruptions, extinction busts, ghosting, etc.

Also

I did not manipulate/ghost her. I was direct, honest, and sincere with her and I was ready to tell her my intentions and expectations.

Let me try to address your points with some examples and analogies.

First, "Would a woman take 24-48 hours to reply to Drake"...I want to be rich. I am not yet rich. Should I expect others to treat me as if I am rich?

My point is, that you are not Drake, so you should not be expecting to be treated as if you are. You are both using each other for recreational sex - whether she is ghosting you or not shouldn't matter.

You want to confront this girl, are considering ghosting her, expect her to have the decency to end things in person, and expect her to text back within 24 hours. That is a relationship, and not a very good one.

If I threw a fit every time a girl I was sleeping with/wanted to sleep with took too long to text back, I'd be getting laid a lot less...

You might respond "Well I only want to sleep with women who respect and prioritize me", and I'd say again: you want a relationship.

I have a plate I slept with just last weekend. I'd been hooking up with her on and off for about a year and a half now. She might not text me for a week, might not text me for a month, doesn't matter because she DOES text me. I can choose to be mad about it OR I can accept the fact that both of us are content with the current arrangement and don't need to be made a priority, or take on the responsibility associated with it. It doesn't matter how long she takes because instead of being upset with her for not giving me attention, I'm maintaining relationships with other women who are, and meeting new women who might.

If you have a problem with that, again, you want a relationship...

 

[FlexpertHamilton]

Let me try to address your points with some examples and analogies.

First, "Would a woman take 24-48 hours to reply to Drake"...I want to be rich. I am not yet rich. Should I expect others to treat me as if I am rich?

My point is, that you are not Drake, so you should not be expecting to be treated as if you are. You are both using each other for recreational sex - whether she is ghosting you or not shouldn't matter.

You're missing the point. The point is she would not do that for a man she was interested in. So why should you accept it?

You want to confront this girl, are considering ghosting her, expect her to have the decency to end things in person, and expect her to text back within 24 hours. That is a relationship, and not a very good one.

If I threw a fit every time a girl I was sleeping with/wanted to sleep with took too long to text back, I'd be getting laid a lot less...

You might respond "Well I only want to sleep with women who respect and prioritize me", and I'd say again: you want a relationship.

The only difference between an "official" relationship and any other type of relationship is commitment. Respect, boundaries, sincere communication, etc should be a given in any type of relationship and making it "exclusive" has nothing to do with any of those things. There is zero reason you should accept disrespect from a woman no matter how casual it is.

A lot of guys do whatever it takes to get laid and passively "tolerate" disrespect and pretend they don't care and put their head in the clouds and shrug and say "hey at least I'm getting pvssy". I'd rather take the L and very often take the L to forgo sex if they do not respect me. You have a completely different mindset from me and you seem to have those old school PUA attitudes of making it a goal to have sex with as many women as possible rather than focusing on deep game like setting boundaries, learning to walk away, etc, and again making a relationship "official" does not do anything to guarantee any of these things.

I have a plate I slept with just last weekend. I'd been hooking up with her on and off for about a year and a half now. She might not text me for a week, might not text me for a month, doesn't matter because she DOES text me. I can choose to be mad about it OR I can accept the fact that both of us are content with the current arrangement and don't need to be made a priority, or take on the responsibility associated with it. It doesn't matter how long she takes because instead of being upset with her for not giving me attention, I'm maintaining relationships with other women who are, and meeting new women who might.

If you have a problem with that, again, you want a relationship...

I don't care about sex. It sounds like you do and place it's value above anything else. If you didn't care about sex you wouldn't tolerate being treated like that. Read my above example. A girl ghosted me for 3 months after a first night lay with great sex and when she came back I told her no. No ***** is worth any amount of disrespect in my mind.

 

[SW15]

I do also question polls sometimes, women lie all the time, but it's an interesting data point to consider if it's true.

It's one of the better points that we have in order to evaluate.

How many women under 35 or so (who actually date men and have relationships) aren't on social media or OLD? That number is probably very low.

Unknown. The linked Pew report only covered dating sites/apps. Social media and social media DMing wasn't part of the analysis there. That could be called a limitation of that survey-based research.

Plus, the %s are only lower for older women not younger ones.

I would have thought more than 37% of people 30-49 in 2022 and more than 53% of 18-29s in 2022 would have had some history using dating websites or apps. The 50+ population has more of the drop off. I'm most interested in the younger 2 age brackets they have, both of which are broad.

Not replying for 24 hours (and now 48+ hours after the next text) is not "being busy with your life". No one is too busy to spend 15 seconds to send a text, especially when they had a former habit of texting you first or texting you back quickly and then have a sudden change in their texting patterns. I can prove you're wrong with two thought experiments. The first is the classic "would a woman take 24-48 hours to reply to Drake?"

It's not a good sign when women take a long time to reply to text messages in the early stages of interactions with newer men in their lives.

I don't get upset when male friends don't reply to my text messages for days at a time. This has happened and I don't read a lot into it. When it has happened, it has happened with male friends who have been my friends for multiple years.

While text messages is supposed to be more convenient, it has created many issues surrounding response times.

My favorite era in communications was that brief moment in the 2000s of pre-smartphone cellular phones. This was in between the landline era of telephones and the takeover of text messages with the smartphones becoming dominant. Mobile calling was good because it didn't require 2 people to be at home to talk. There's been an overreliance on text messages since the smartphone became popular. I think a lot of negative resulted from that.

If you were to dig into archives on SoSuave or some similar forums, you'd probably find men complaining about unreturned phone calls from the pre-smartphone cellular phone era or even the tail end of the landline era.

if you believe woman are "too busy" to text back, imagine telling them you're at the store and want to buy them a gift for something they talked about wanting. Watch how suddenly they become "fast texters" again. Women literally are glued to their phones 24/7 and text in the car, on the toilet, etc. No responding for 24 hours (especially for a text that warrants a response) means you 're not a priority and they don't care about you. End of story.

She didn't care about you and the whole thing feels so impersonal as everything was done in text message.

I think something has been lost as we've moved from calling to texting.

 

[BPH]

A lot of guys do whatever it takes to get laid and passively "tolerate" disrespect and pretend they don't care and put their head in the clouds and shrug and say "hey at least I'm getting pvssy". I'd rather take the L and very often take the L to forgo sex if they do not respect me. You have a completely different mindset from me and you seem to have those old school PUA attitudes of making it a goal to have sex with as many women as possible rather than focusing on deep game like setting boundaries, learning to walk away, etc, and again making a relationship "official" does not do anything to guarantee any of these things.


I don't care about sex. It sounds like you do and place it's value above anything else. If you didn't care about sex you wouldn't tolerate being treated like that. Read my above example. A girl ghosted me for 3 months after a first night lay with great sex and when she came back I told her no. No ***** is worth any amount of disrespect in my mind.

I don't think I'm getting through to you so I'll leave you with this and let you get back to your echo chamber...

There is a difference between "disrespect" and "not being a priority". You expect these girls to respect and value you, but you're NOT looking for a relationship with them, yet you get upset when they don't treat you as if you're the only man in their life...do you not see the hypocrisy there?

Just look at the way you responded to me; because I don't get my panties in a bunch when a plate doesn't respond for a while means I must be some "old school PUA" type with the goal of getting laid at the expense of my dignity and self-respect...

The truth of the matter is I don't care whether they ghost me or not - and it's not even about "abundance", I'm just busy maintaining other plates or meeting new ones. If one drops off and comes back later on, who cares? I don't know what's going on in their lives.

Sometimes they get into a relationship.

Sometimes they're freshly single and want a rebound.

Who cares? Just because somebody doesn't prioritize you doesn't mean they're disrespecting you. Tell yourself whatever "deep game" theories make you feel like you're above me for not getting emotional about this. I think you met a girl who gave you great sex, as per your "nutting inside makes you feel like superman" post or whatever, and now you're pissy because that's been temporarily taken away from you.

AND, you're about to blow it all up because this woman might have a life that doesn't revolve around your expectations.

Have fun.

EDIT: The personal attacks on my character are a result of you getting emotional. You are getting emotional about a PLATE because she is treating YOU as a plate. Hopefully, you'll eventually recognize that.

 

[Isildur1]

Swipe apps are the bottom of the barrel for meeting people. However, they offer an illusion of convenience that a lot of people like.

It takes effort to go out into the world and approach strangers. A lot of people don't like the effort it takes to do that. For every 1-5 real world approaches I can make, I can swipe on hundreds of women. Swiping and texting might seem easier in theory. In reality, it is likely more inefficient than doing things in the real world.

Let's talk about that real world approaching for a moment.

When a man is doing real world approaching, he could be approaching women with swipe app profiles. It can happen with both non-bar approaching and bar approaching as I'll illustrate in a moment. Men who do real world approaching in bigger cities are often doing it in neighborhoods with a lot of unmarried people. That's a wise idea from a targeting perspective.

Men who do real world approaches in parts of a city with a lot of unmarried people could be doing non-bar approaches at grocery stores, on paths/in parks, in bookstores, in malls, in gyms/fitness classes, or on the street. When these men are doing their non-bar approaches, they don't know if they are approaching unattached women who are swipe app users. There's also a good chance they are approaching women in relationships who aren't with their boyfriend at that exact moment. There's a lot of inefficiency baked into non-bar approaching.

When men do approaches in bars, there's a better chance she's unattached and open to meeting new women as compared to randomly in non-bar venues. The women that men approach in bars could easily have swipe app profiles too.

The advantage of real world approaching is better screening upfront and the avoidance of a lot of bullshiit resulting from being in front of an electronic screen. Another thing that's really been bad for relational development in the last 15-20 years is text messaging. Text messaging de-personalizes the initial stages of interactions as compared to phone calls. I was cringing in reading about the texting that was happening in @FlexpertHamilton 's situation. All of this communication he described occurred over text messaging. Things could have played out somewhat similarly in an era where phone calls were the dominant medium. I could imagine some guy in the 1990s-2000s complaining about phone call issues too from a woman. On the whole, I still think phone calls are better than text messages, but good luck getting with trying to get women born in the mid to late 1980s or later to regularly have phone calls.

The best way in real life to avoid bullshiit is to only meet dates through a social circle. In theory, the social circle is vetting for crappy behavior like the behaviors @FlexpertHamilton experienced. A guy who only dates through social circle probably isn't dealing with the crap @FlexpertHamilton experienced. Social circle game has efficiencies built into it once the social circle has been created. The problem is actually creating that social circle.

In general, social circle interactions are better options in the shorter to medium to for finding a girlfriend. If you're looking for an extended relationship (1-5 years or more), your best bet for getting that with the least amount of grief and frustration is through a social circle. You won't have to do as many approaches in either non-bar venues or nightlife venues or take as many rejections. You won't have a miserable time on swipe apps.

For men with social circles, the problem with the social circle method eventually becomes sustainability as social circles get pissed at men who continually exchange girlfriends, even if the relationships are semi-long (1-5 years). A man might be able to pull 2 LTRs from a social circle without marrying one. After 2 instances, he will have typically bled the social circle dry unless he has a very expansive social circle. Most men with circles don't have an expansive enough circle to pull that off. Social circles are blue pill in general and would frown upon casual sex within the circle in most cases. This won't be a problem for a lot of men, since a lot of men are looking for a consistent sex partner and not necessarily looking to put up big notch count numbers.

The best way to meet women is through a social circle and the worst way to meet women is through swipe apps. In-person stranger approaching falls somewhere in between.

Good thing about real world approaches is you stand out in the girls eyes from the online crowd at least it proves you have a set of balls not all women like this but some really appreciate it

social circles can get stagnant after a long time. Every girl in my social circle is in a ltr now or is married- men must work hard to find new options imo. Also a breakup within a social circle can sometimes cause conflicts within the group dynamic too

I don't think I'm getting through to you so I'll leave you with this and let you get back to your echo chamber...

There is a difference between "disrespect" and "not being a priority". You expect these girls to respect and value you, but you're NOT looking for a relationship with them, yet you get upset when they don't treat you as if you're the only man in their life...do you not see the hypocrisy there?

Just look at the way you responded to me; because I don't get my panties in a bunch when a plate doesn't respond for a while means I must be some "old school PUA" type with the goal of getting laid at the expense of my dignity and self-respect...

The truth of the matter is I don't care whether they ghost me or not - and it's not even about "abundance", I'm just busy maintaining other plates or meeting new ones. If one drops off and comes back later on, who cares? I don't know what's going on in their lives.

Sometimes they get into a relationship.

Sometimes they're freshly single and want a rebound.

Who cares? Just because somebody doesn't prioritize you doesn't mean they're disrespecting you. Tell yourself whatever "deep game" theories make you feel like you're above me for not getting emotional about this. I think you met a girl who gave you great sex, as per your "nutting inside makes you feel like superman" post or whatever, and now you're pissy because that's been temporarily taken away from you.

AND, you're about to blow it all up because this woman might have a life that doesn't revolve around your expectations.

Have fun.

EDIT: The personal attacks on my character are a result of you getting emotional. You are getting emotional about a PLATE because she is treating YOU as a plate. Hopefully, you'll eventually recognize that.

Same thing happened to me when I delayed texting girls back or not giving them enough attention they moved on to men who would give them the attention they wanted

I don’t get the whole three days after sex to text then it’s a man’s job to protect and care for the woman after a seduction if he doesn’t he’s going to lose that plate quite simply

 

[FlexpertHamilton]

I don't think I'm getting through to you so I'll leave you with this and let you get back to your echo chamber...

There is a difference between "disrespect" and "not being a priority". You expect these girls to respect and value you, but you're NOT looking for a relationship with them, yet you get upset when they don't treat you as if you're the only man in their life...do you not see the hypocrisy there?

Okay when I say priority I don't mean feel entitled to be the #1 focus in her life. I don't even expect that from an LTR...

When I say priority I mean prioritizing me as a human being ie not being discarded and disregarded with no communication. Prioritizing someone in this context means prioritizing their feelings by treating them with dignity and kindness as a human being; what I don't mean is prioritizing their ranking as a sexual partner. If they see other men that's fine but I don't want that to change on how they treat me. When I see multiple women none of them have any idea...I don't hint at it and in fact go out of my way to hide it, and I don't suddenly ghost and punish them for no reason when some new/better girl comes around. It's not hypocrisy to expect basic dignity whether it's casual or serious. If you like someone else more, at least have the dignity to end things instead of leave them wondering where you stand and put the pieces together.

Just look at the way you responded to me; because I don't get my panties in a bunch when a plate doesn't respond for a while means I must be some "old school PUA" type with the goal of getting laid at the expense of my dignity and self-respect...

The truth of the matter is I don't care whether they ghost me or not - and it's not even about "abundance", I'm just busy maintaining other plates or meeting new ones. If one drops off and comes back later on, who cares? I don't know what's going on in their lives.

Sometimes they get into a relationship.

Sometimes they're freshly single and want a rebound.

Who cares? Just because somebody doesn't prioritize you doesn't mean they're disrespecting you. Tell yourself whatever "deep game" theories make you feel like you're above me for not getting emotional about this. I think you met a girl who gave you great sex, as per your "nutting inside makes you feel like superman" post or whatever, and now you're pissy because that's been temporarily taken away from you.

AND, you're about to blow it all up because this woman might have a life that doesn't revolve around your expectations.

Have fun.

EDIT: The personal attacks on my character are a result of you getting emotional. You are getting emotional about a PLATE because she is treating YOU as a plate. Hopefully, you'll eventually recognize that.

Sorry for the personal attacks. This "PUA mindset" is a common on this forum and I used you as a scapegoat. I am extremely emotionally vulnerable right now I won't deny. However you were implying you get laid more than me because you don't care and my contention is that you should care. My point is that I simply do not agree that these things don't matter. Again let's replace the word priority with dignity. Yes not being a priority (meaning sexual priority in the ranking of all men or life priorities in general) is not necessarily disrespect, but whether or not someone is a priority should having no bearing on how you treat someone and certainly does mean you should ever accept things like ghosting. If I'm seeing a girl and a new one comes into the picture that I like more, I will not let it effect how I treat her and if it does I will have the decency to end things if I need to. Case in point a couple of years ago I was casually seeing a girl for a few months (with some sporadic one night stands with new women) but at some point I started getting serious with one particular girl. So I told this casual girl, in person, that I don't want to waste her time and hurt her (and she later revealed she wanted something serious but was afraid to ask) so I ended things amicably and we still talk to this day even though we both moved across the country. That girl was not a priority, yes, but that didn't mean I had the right to just discard her feelings and not communicate my intentions to her and leave her to pick up the pieces.

I would be curious what your approach is to setting boundaries, standards of acceptable behavior, overall communication with regards to LTRs and how you vet and select for them (red/green flags) over casual women.

 

[SW15]

According to Pew, roughly seven-in-ten U.S. adults (69%) are currently partnered – that is, they describe themselves as married, living with a partner or in a committed romantic relationship.

This has always been one of the toughest things for me to deal with in the mating environment.

I was making this observation as far back as when I was in college during the 2001-2005 era. Even on a college campus with nearly everyone unmarried, most people are partnered off in some way. That's why a lot of people even on college campuses partner off into relationships. The committed relationship is the path to regular sex for most people.

This fact above becomes more difficult to deal with for people in the working world. I live in a part of my city where unmarried people and unmarried childless people are more common. I go to the grocery stores where unmarried childless people would tend to go. I go to other places in real life where one might find unmarried and childless people. It's still a real battle. Most of my non-bar approach conversations fizzle out within 60-90 seconds before a date is offered and before I can typically determine if the woman is in market for meeting new men. These are 'soft rejections'.

Below is an early 2020 article from Tom Torero on the daygame and its power to produce results.

The Art of Daygame Seduction – Tom Torero - Alpha Male 2.0

Today’s article is written by my favorite daygame guy, Tom Torero. There is also a FREE audio component to this article, available for everyone. Tom will also be replying in the comments. Take it away, Tom!

alphamale20.com

What kind of realistic expectations should you have? Well, depending on your starting point, your mileage will vary. But a solid daygamer should be able to get a number from 25% of the girls he approaches. Out of those numbers, 25% should come out on dates. And from those dates, 25% should end up in his bed. If you think those statistics are depressing then look at your ratios for Tinder or dating sites.

Based on this, a daygamer would need to approach 75 women to get 19 phone numbers, 4-5 dates, and 1 new sexual partner. That's using a strong systematic approach like the London Daygame Model. I think a lot of daygamers need to approach more than 75 women to find a new sexual partner. It would realistically take most men a while to do the 75 day approaches to find a new sexual partner. Additionally, in going through this, one would probably want that sexual partner to last for some amount of time based on the effort it takes to approach 75 women in non-bar venues.

Bars are supposed a bit better than this because bar attendees are supposed to be single people looking to meet new people. It doesn't always work out like this.

Swipe apps were supposed to solve for the bar problem above and provide an outlet for people in the market to meet and form couples. It hasn't worked out like that in reality and it's been less efficient than older school methods like bars, as Torero mentioned in that quote I have from him above.

Good thing about real world approaches is you stand out in the girls eyes from the online crowd at least it proves you have a set of balls not all women like this but some really appreciate it

A real world approach can make a man stand out. Fewer men are real world approaching. A heavily approached woman might get approached 20 times in a week if she's going to the right bars regularly. A woman on an app is getting swiped right on 300 times in a week. 300 is lot more than 20. The 20 from real life could stand out more than the 300.

social circles can get stagnant after a long time. Every girl in my social circle is in a ltr now or is married- men must work hard to find new options imo. Also a breakup within a social circle can sometimes cause conflicts within the group dynamic too

Yes, social circles get stagnant. My primary circle is very stagnant due to marriages. I haven't done a good job expanding my circles in the years since everyone got into an LTR, got married, and most started having babies.

Your point on breakups is also true.

I don't think you're equipped to have a casual relationship with a woman, I think you need commitment.

I think this observation has value. Some men aren't equipped to handle the casual sex lifestyle. There are numerous ways to get laid. Perhaps he's better suited for a committed relationship model like serial monogamy. It doesn't mean he needs to get married but spinning plates might not be the best for him.