I built it, they didn't come

[corrector]

I think it is somewhat similar to a FWB situation.

Okay so you are a happy camper MGTOW. You just said that you did not succeed at dating and you are pursuing happiness by seeing escorts. Sounds MGTOW to me.

Someone with just FBWs can be arguably a MGTOW also. Did you think MGTOWS are sad? Or perhaps you are confusing monk-mode MGTOWS with MGTOWS?

 

[allergictobs]

This is the part I don't get ... how can you go on vacations and whatever when you know that it's all fake?

I'm really starting to think that you guys are not able to separate love and sex/intimacy? I'm not buying love or affection - it is purely sex and good company (many of them are actually good conversationalists). It's almost like going on a vacation with a friend - you eat dinner in nice places, occasionally do fun stuff, tell jokes etc. and have sex.

Also, no one is going on a vacation with anyone they haven't met many times beforehand. So at that point they are already like a friend.

 

[allergictobs]

Okay so you are a happy camper MGTOW. You just said that you did not succeed at dating and you are pursuing happiness by seeing escorts. Sounds MGTOW to me.

Someone with just FBWs can be arguably a MGTOW also. Did you think MGTOWS are sad? Or perhaps you are confusing monk-mode MGTOWS with MGTOWS?

I don't have a strong view on these labels and maybe I am confusing some terms. I'm under the impression that MGTOWs typically seek to live a life without women, and I know that I'm not like that. If a woman I like shows interest, I'm asking her out and I'm willing to make changes to my lifestyle to make a relationship work.

But these labels don't matter to me that much, I'm not a person who particularly wants to belong to any group. I'm just trying to live life the best way I can.

 

[corrector]

I don't have a strong view on these labels and maybe I am confusing some terms. I'm under the impression that MGTOWs typically seek to live a life without women, and I know that I'm not like that.

You are confusing monk mode MGTOW with MGTOW.

If a woman I like shows interest, I'm asking her out and I'm willing to make changes to my lifestyle to make a relationship work.

You are spening too much time with escorts and planning to take them on vacation and are saying you are pursuing happiness.
Suppose you met such a woman while you are on vacation? You have enough time for a vacation, but not enough time to meet women for dating? Something doesn't add up here because you are taking yourself out of the dating market by seeing these escorts and then complaining that you are not meeting women.

By the way, how do you think a prospective women, who does genuinely like you will feel if she knew you were seeing escorts that frequently, taking them on vacations and was proud about that? You realize you'll basically have to lie throughout the whole relationship. 2-3 years into the marriage when things get stale, you have the stress of raising a child and get tired of her nagging you, that you'll likely cheat on her since you are so used to doing it now. What's even more bizzare, is you are just continuing this lifestyle and just think a new woman would be cool with that?

But these labels don't matter to me that much, I'm not a person who particularly wants to belong to any group. I'm just trying to live life the best way I can.

It does not really matter if you want to belong to a particular group or not or if a label matters or does not matter with you because you are not outside the context of how you are presenting yourself. At this point labelling is a mode of discussion to try and get to the bottom of you. It's like saying, I like biking, so I'm a cyclist and then I get on the defensive saying, I don't like being called a cyclist because that's a label. Likewise, you have established a truth concering what you want, what you are looking for, and what makes you happy. But why would you be on the defenisve when a label is brought up that brings up other people who think the same way that you do?

 

[momentomori]

Interesting to watch this play out. A guy comes to a logical conclusion about the dating market and starts living a life that suits him, but people start creeping out of the woodwork to shame him to put him right back on the plantation.

 

[corrector]

Interesting to watch this play out. A guy comes to a logical conclusion about the dating market and starts living a life that suits him, but people start creeping out of the woodwork to shame him to put him right back on the plantation.

You are MGTOW too.

 

[corrector]

This is the third or fourth time in a row I broke my own no-fap no-porn thing today. It looks like any discussion of escorts are bewitching. It's like a trigger word in and of itself. You know, I got the location of like 6 different incalls, can just literally drive out and visit an escort (average drive is less than 12 minutes away, and cost is at least $ 80/ hh), and then I went hey-wire lookign at escort pics and ended up fapping on the whole thing. Now I feel sick. This is the third time today and frankly I don't think I can't handle discussions involving escorts without it turning into a fap session. The idea that some or most people actually visit escorts and don't get demon possessed afterwards is playing with my mind and making it more comfortable for me to fap at them. I almost got possessed when I saw one in 2014 and since then I stay away from them.

Even if I feel sick about it, but at least I know it's on the other side of the computer screen and nothing happened. It's easier to move on and get back to my life when it's on the other side of a screen and has no connection with me. But I don't want to go there again because I wasted my time. I could have watched a movie instead of this.

 

[patb]

This is the part I don't get ... how can you go on vacations and whatever when you know that it's all fake? How can you keep a straight face and feel fulfilled going through this charade?
I mean, you can buy sex, and I agree with you, no point in wasting time with OLD and subpar women on there when you can get straight to the business with a good looking escort.
But one can't buy love and affection.

Love and affection is entirely conditional from women, bought with cash or not.

 

[Pierce Manhammer]

More power to you man, I could never bring myself to do that.

Pay someone to feign interest in me? Nope.

I'm really starting to think that you guys are not able to separate love and sex/intimacy? I'm not buying love or affection - it is purely sex and good company (many of them are actually good conversationalists). It's almost like going on a vacation with a friend - you eat dinner in nice places, occasionally do fun stuff, tell jokes etc. and have sex.

Also, no one is going on a vacation with anyone they haven't met many times beforehand. So at that point they are already like a friend.

 

[FlirtLife]

Regarding sex life, I have realized that the best sex I (or most men) will ever have is with high-end escorts. The best ones have a model-tier body and treat you very nicely. They are very expensive and I've started to think that I'm lucky to afford them regularly. It's not always easy to meet the one I like the most because she lives in a different city, but I try to meet her or another one once a week for a few hours of private time. Sometimes go on a mini-vacation with her.

The most important thing I've realized over the past couple of years about women and dating is that most women are not that interested in men (Aaron Clarey has talked about this a lot recently). It is clearly visible now at work with many women remaining single in their 30s and 40s. Some of them have had children, but dumped the guy afterwards.

First off, this is my favorite thread title - especially when I view the last part as innuendo.

I've been reading one of Mr Clarey's books, but "talked ... recently" suggests he's online somewhere? If you have book suggestions or where I can find him online, feel free to PM me to avoid a tangent in this thread.

Focusing on your schedule, when do you have time for women? I mean this literally - that if you don't make room in your schedule, they can't come into your schedule. You might need to find time and a place where your odds of meeting women go up.

A random suggestion : would you consider joining a yoga class? That might compliment your gym workout, and you'll hopefully be around fit women who share an interest in exercise. Seeing how you approach life, I'm assuming you wouldn't spend every class trying to hit on a new woman, but would instead let them approach you (which I say to head off other people's replies more than speaking to you).

 

[corrector]

Love and affection is entirely conditional from women, bought with cash or not.

Only feigned love and affection is bought by cash. Real love and affection not so much.

 

[patb]

Only feigned love and affection is bought by cash. Real love and affection not so much.

I would contend the line between the two is blurry at best.

 

[allergictobs]

Love and affection is entirely conditional from women, bought with cash or not.

Yes, the only persons who are capable of loving you unconditionally are your parents.

With everyone else, affection is ultimately transactional - people like you for being funny/high status/good-looking/industrious etc. As soon as you stop displaying something that made people like you, people leave.

And here's the thing: displaying desirable traits is directly connected to wealth and status. Wealth buys you freedom, which leads to better health, self-care, interesting hobbies, events etc.

And yes, friendships are still true friendships (or as true as they can be). It's just that people want to be with other people who are on the same level. It's the game of life, where we all unconsiously want to be associated with people who are similar to ourselves or better.

Some women, for example, only want to spend time with high status men because they view themselves worthy. High status men behave in a certain way, talk about different topics than low status men etc. Some only want to spend time with people who are fit and work out.

Imagine two scenarios:
1) Ask a friend to go on a skiing trip with you. Both pay their own share and spend time frugally. In general, there is hesitation to go on a trip like that.
2) Ask a friend to go on a skiing trip with you, your treat. You pay for an upper class hotel, promise nice dinners and fun time. See their face light up, with a big smile they instantly like you more (genuinely even). Now you are a fun person with a nice lifestyle, instantly more attractive to 99% of people.

I didn't invent this, it's how the world works.

 

[patb]

Yes, the only persons who are capable of loving you unconditionally are your parents.

With everyone else, affection is ultimately transactional - people like you for being funny/high status/good-looking/industrious etc. As soon as you stop displaying something that made people like you, people leave.

And here's the thing: displaying desirable traits is directly connected to wealth and status. Wealth buys you freedom, which leads to better health, self-care, interesting hobbies, events etc.

And yes, friendships are still true friendships (or as true as they can be). It's just that people want to be with other people who are on the same level. It's the game of life, where we all unconsiously want to be associated with people who are similar to ourselves or better.

Some women, for example, only want to spend time with high status men because they view themselves worthy. High status men behave in a certain way, talk about different topics than low status men etc. Some only want to spend time with people who are fit and work out.

Imagine two scenarios:
1) Ask a friend to go on a skiing trip with you. Both pay their own share and spend time frugally. In general, there is hesitation to go on a trip like that.
2) Ask a friend to go on a skiing trip with you, your treat. You pay for an upper class hotel, promise nice dinners and fun time. See their face light up, with a big smile they instantly like you more (genuinely even). Now you are a fun person with a nice lifestyle, instantly more attractive to 99% of people.

I didn't invent this, it's how the world works.

I'd argue the intra-sex dynamic is a little different -- men actually prefer friends that are a little lower than them, and don't like to be indebted. But generally yes.

 

[allergictobs]

This is the third or fourth time in a row I broke my own no-fap no-porn thing today. It looks like any discussion of escorts are bewitching. It's like a trigger word in and of itself. You know, I got the location of like 6 different incalls, can just literally drive out and visit an escort (average drive is less than 12 minutes away, and cost is at least $ 80/ hh), and then I went hey-wire lookign at escort pics and ended up fapping on the whole thing. Now I feel sick. This is the third time today and frankly I don't think I can't handle discussions involving escorts without it turning into a fap session.

I think you should not read this thread anymore if it causes such a reaction.

By the way, note that I live in Europe where escorting is not illegal. And, I say this not to brag but to clarify, $80 per hour is not a high quality escort and I would never see anyone like that. The going rate where I live is 5-10 times that and they don't do short visits. Again, not to brag but to make a clear distinction between high-end escorts and something I'd stay far away from.

 

[corrector]

I think you should not read this thread anymore if it causes such a reaction.

By the way, note that I live in Europe where escorting is not illegal. And, I say this not to brag but to clarify, $80 per hour is not a high quality escort and I would never see anyone like that. The going rate where I live is 5-10 times that and they don't do short visits. Again, not to brag but to make a clear distinction between high-end escorts and something I'd stay far away from.

I thought you could at least cop a feel (ie if you want to grope in public but dont get into trouble) with a low end one if you just want to grope a woman's a$$?

I used to grope mannequins until I met the first "low end" escort. I danced together with her completely nude and I kept my underware on the whole time. She even offered her a$$ and I could not get hard (even in my underware). However since that time, I lost the desire to grope women or mannequins because she satisfied that craving forever. In this sense to get rid of a desire to publically grope women was worth the $60. The second escort visited was a different experience.

 

[Solomon]

OP did everything right, may be your location OP I would recommend traveling as much as you can
I got a buddy in a similar situation as you he became a millionaire still couldn't get women
He came to my town for a weekend and cleaned up
Now he's gotton super rippped so he has no problem but yeah OP maybe go on more holidays

 

[Fruitbat]

My guess is social skills.

I’ve managed to attract women being plenty overweight. Silver tongue works a charm.

killer lines? None. No such thing. You just gotta be fun and have imagination.

if you have all of the above it has GOT to be your social interactions because at 36 and tubby I could still go get laid if I put a bit of work in.

 

[BillyPilgrim]

this is a good point, I wouldn't downplay location. In some locations, women are actually looking for a man, in some they are "take it or leave it" at best. It doesn't seem like it should make that much of a difference, but it makes pretty much all the difference in some cases. Have seen many friends go from de-facto incel to doing well simply by moving. Women need to have a little scarcity introduced into their surroundings to be able to acknowledge high value in one person.

I had attractive women paying to fly to see me when I was in one of the worst dating markets in the US, while I couldnt get a date locally with someone half as attractive. My SMV would drop or increase 50% every time I got on a plane to leave or return from there.

Where was "there"?

 

[BillyPilgrim]

Pac NW

Traditionally, the fruits and nuts who didn't fit in and weren't attractive migrated there instead of California