I built it, they didn't come

[Gamisch]

Just trying to understand you based on your threads and posts, and from what I gather, it's textbook MGTOW.

I think you are viewing this very differently from the way I see it (and you should probably accept that people can view things differently).

I have accepted that I didn't succeed in the dating game, for whatever reason. I mean, I'm soon 40 years old and it would require almost a miracle to find a much younger woman who would want to date me long-term.

So I look at it like this: I will probably be sexually active for many years to come and I can either
a) have sex with lingerie models, go on vacations and spend unforgettable moments with them
b) not use escorts and hope that I get lucky occasionally (which, given my lifestyle is extremely rarely)
Which of these two scenarios leads to more happiness? I guess it depends on the person.

Now, I haven't completely stopped playing the dating game, but I have stopped actively pursuing women because it is very unproductive. I will only approach someone if the situation arises naturally and there are signs of attraction. If I didn't see escorts, I might be much more nervous in a situation like that (because men tend to be that way if they rarely get laid).

So in essence, I have separated sex life from the dating game. I think it is somewhat similar to a FWB situation.

That's not what a fwb situation really looks like. There's flirting, the banter, innuendo ect. Genuine interest. The build up and eagerness from a woman to see you is someting you cant buy. The wish for a healthy relationship with a woman is normal, why would you step away from that?

I agree with @corrector , you are just coping . You make the thread, and conclude within the same thread you are fine with this lifestyle. Great if found the answers you were looking for, it's just a shame you accept this defeatist mindset.

Hookers offer you a service. Don't ever be fooled their interest is sincere. I understand most men try to stay away from this lifestyle. It's an absolute last resort, and after the post nut clearity a man must have hard think. To me its almost like doing drugs, a absolute low point . It's hard to describe the feeling of emptiness when you're done with a prostitute and leave.

Both hooker and client are equally damaged. Both will have multiple people wishing things could be different for them. OP is unable to realize that this lifestyle is creating a negative perpetual loop. By becoming a regular visitor you constanly damage your self esteem.

You'd be surprised how easy it can be to build real relationships with women. You are on the right path by starting the thread , now you should just be open to learn new ideas. You wouldn't be the first man to do it.

 

[European-DJ]

That is why self improvement can be sick advice. You end up with attention from undesirable women that are 4 points below you and you feel ripped off. The fact that you are escortcelling shows me you have to pay for the company of women (that in a normal and functional society ) that you would otherwise deserve. At least you can afford that hobby. How often are you escortcelling?

I firmly believe that for people who experience lack of results this is driven by:
A) they think to highly of themselves (I.e. that 4 point difference is more likely to be 1);
B) they don’t put the required level of effort in.

I have never dated as many beautiful women as I have over the past 6 months: all thanks to 12 weeks of dedicated (HARD) effort and genuinely being a caring person to the women I see. That’s how little it took; all while managing a 1HR workout routine and a 10-12hr work day. It’s about being creative.

I am at a point now where I am breaking it off with girls that I never thought would give me a chance - and THEY are super sad about it when I break it off and desperately try to fix things.

@corrector, did you stick to the routine we spoke about 2-3 months ago? Am genuinely curious to know whether you’re seeing any tangible results

 

[corrector]

I firmly believe that for people who experience lack of results this is driven by:
A) they think to highly of themselves (I.e. that 4 point difference is more likely to be 1);
B) they don’t put the required level of effort in.

I have never dated as many beautiful women as I have over the past 6 months: all thanks to 12 weeks of dedicated (HARD) effort and genuinely being a caring person to the women I see. That’s how little it took; all while managing a 1HR workout routine and a 10-12hr work day. It’s about being creative.

I am at a point now where I am breaking it off with girls that I never thought would give me a chance - and THEY are super sad about it when I break it off and desperately try to fix things.

@corrector, did you stick to the routine we spoke about 2-3 months ago? Am genuinely curious to know whether you’re seeing any tangible results

I have another thread devoted to the subject on the Health Section called Emotional Eating. There is allot of personal issues where I am a shared caregiver for my mother along with my dad, and am glued together with my folks (ie the set-up here is too tight to accomodate any new women without turning this set-up upside down), and this has lead to allot of emotional eating (ie not necessarily binging, but eating the wrong types of foods with insufficent sleep and exercise). At this time I have visited my doctor and I'm being assigned a dietician (she refused to prescribe any weight loss prescription meds until natural remedies of losing weight are tried first). There was a work-out routine, but the local gym I went at closed due to a sprinker system malfunction that damged all the equipment. I'm looking into other gyms to resume a work-out routine during for the remaining winter months.

 

[patb]

I firmly believe that for people who experience lack of results this is driven by:
A) they think to highly of themselves (I.e. that 4 point difference is more likely to be 1);
B) they don’t put the required level of effort in.

There were people that firmly believed the Earth is held aloft by a giant turtle, too.

 

[BillyPilgrim]

I would consider NorCal part of the same ilk. San Jose through Seattle are absolute dating wastelands.

No love for the Redding Methheads or the Willow Creek Sasquatches?

 

[corrector]

There were people that firmly believed the Earth is held aloft by a giant turtle, too.

You are talking to a successful red-piller with such contempt? Honestly, what is wrong with you dude?

 

[patb]

You are talking to a successful red-piller with such contempt? Honestly, what is wrong with you dude?

I wasn't aware I was in such exalted company. I just really have no patience for the whole just world fallacy schtick. It's just non-falsifiable nonsense that makes the advocate feel good about themselves but doesn't actually explain reality.

 

[corrector]

I wasn't aware I was in such exalted company.

You are indeed privileged.

 

[Ricky]

This thread is a few years old but has continued up until last month. I am kind of bookmarking it for reading but I know alot of guys that are in a similar position as the OP.

 

[BackInTheGame78]

This thread is a few years old but has continued up until last month. I am kind of bookmarking it for reading but I know alot of guys that are in a similar position as the OP.

The key is understanding that building something is great but you still have to be able to have a social presence and carry and conduct yourself in an attractive way.

Also, building something does nothing if you aren't putting in any effort and expecting women to suddenly fall out of the sky. That's not going to happen. You still have to actively be putting work in and putting forth an effort.

 

[BMX]

Keep building yourself up. You have to. I just did what our mod TheProspect said to do with spring cleaning of your friendships. It helped me tremendously in cutting out the crappy friendships that wasted a lot of my energy and time (think 40 minute phone calls) talking over and over about useless, narcissistic bullsh it. Now I can hit the gym and study for my certs stress and guilt-free, not worrying about these fools calling or texting. Get your happiness right on your own and keep it up, because you are the one dealing with yourself the most of all.

 

[Fruitbat]

[

genuinely being a caring person to the women I see.

This is the full circle. Many start being supplicating simps. Then come the years of being an ******* (it’s better than being a simp)

eventually you realise women are people too. Once you have abundance you can be kind. Someone once told me to stop seeing women as prey and start treating them more like you treat your friends. This actually was great advice. This allows you the honesty too. If a friend acted like a flaky jerk you would call it out. It’s not to treat them like you’re their GIRL friend but to de pedestalise them and just treat them like anyone else

 

[SW15]

It's possible to build it and women not come. @sangheilios is a great example of this. He was genetically blessed and made it to 6'4". Beyond that, he worked in the gym and built a desirable physique. 6'4" with muscles is the foundation of a top tier man. This is the man that women are supposed to be chasing on swipe apps and in the real world.

@sangheilios just addressed this topic in a separate thread.

The issue with telling men to work on self improvement

I've been seeing an interesting trend with mainstream media and youtube, where there is a lot of content recently discussing the issues that young men are experiencing with the modern dating market. There was one piece on CNN saying that over 60% of men were single while around 1/3 women were in...

www.sosuave.net

 

[BeExcellent]

So I guess my question for @allergictobs is this:

What is it you really want? On the one hand you say you'd like to have a family one day, on the other hand you acknowledge that you are essentially escort-celling it (or whatever term y'all are using) to be able to enjoy sex and companionship with beautiful women.

Why not further get to know some of these girls? You said that many times they fade as they move on other things. Perhaps you cannot see them as serious relationship or motherhood contenders, but in most cases these women are going to end up married to someone and raising someone's children.

I (and the board) get that you are extremely analytical and outcome driven. You state that you have essentially divorced sex from love, and yet you know from your own past experience that desire based relationships exist and are possible.

These things are divergent. So in order to get what you want as your bigger goal (a LTR or nuclear family one day) you need a woman who understands this separation of sex and love in you, and perhaps is capable of that herself. Those are high notch count women. You are not going to have patience with an innocent girl, assuming you could find one, for example. And it isn't fair to such a girl to ruin her by breaking her heart when she finds you fvcking an escort because "it's just sex" and you needed whatever the escort gives you that your love interest can't.

Your habituation is simply entrenching the problem further.

If tomorrow you were to meet your ideal woman, and she was interested in you, what would that look like? Give that a real think. Right now you say you want a family but you are behaving in a way that is diametrically opposed to the commitments and challenges and rewards of intimacy and family life.

Part of what you are doing in seeing the escorts is ruining any ability to have a relationship with a non-escort. Is a non-escort going to be as sexually experienced? Doubtful. Will she be as beautiful? Maybe. Will she have love and sex separated? Highly unlikely if she is an emotionally healthy young woman. That is going to create conflicts and you are simply digging yourself a deeper ditch.

You can afford the model-esque escorts sometimes. You cannot afford them all the time. They will move on to be with wealthier men who can better provide for them. These are girls who leverage and use their beauty. It is not real, at least not initially. And associating there seriously malfunctions your ability to bond with a girl who has the capacity to really love you, who can give you sex based in desire.

You need to look at the damage that is being done to your own humanity in giving these beautiful succumbuses your money and your time. There is an opportunity cost you are paying that you may not realize or appreciate.

You say all relationships are transactional. Perhaps. But there are different levels to that. The banal level is where you reside. You are not exchanging sacrificial love with another. That is what real love requires, sacrifice of self for something greater. For the lover, for the relationship, for the children, for the regimen (in the military). Love is sacrifice and from that struggle and that sacrifice meaningfulness arises.

There are women capable of this. They are not escorts. Your habits are going to rob you of the opportunity to have what you say you REALLY want in time. You are creating damage in yourself that you cannot see.

And do NOT give me that bullcrap that you are happy doing this. You aren't. Your sexual needs are being met but your deeper human needs are starving. That is why you mull this matter over in your mind when you are quiet or alone. Meanwhile that devil time slowly and surely steals your hours in beautiful worthlessness, and eventually will leave you with nothing.

Turn all that over in your head. THAT is what is really bugging you, unless I am way WAY off base.

Thoughts?

 

[allergictobs]

Thoughts?

Ok, I'll respond (because you are one of the more intelligent posters on this board). But let me ask you a question as well: why do you care so much about some anonymous forum poster to revive an inactive thread? Why is my story making you think deeply and ask these questions?

What is it you really want? On the one hand you say you'd like to have a family one day, on the other hand you acknowledge that you are essentially escort-celling it (or whatever term y'all are using) to be able to enjoy sex and companionship with beautiful women.

Right now, I want to enjoy life and keep improving in areas I'm interested in. I know I would want offspring one day, but not necessarily a traditional family. I'm not sure I'm capable of living a family life. I've realized that I am too self-centered. Recently been reading about the so-called dark triad personality traits, which seem to be describing me well. I've known for a long time that I'm probably not a "normal" person and maybe should not aim for things that most people aim for.

Why not further get to know some of these girls? You said that many times they fade as they move on other things. Perhaps you cannot see them as serious relationship or motherhood contenders, but in most cases these women are going to end up married to someone and raising someone's children.

Yes, I've become more open to the idea. I'm not any better than these women, so I don't care about their high notch count. In fact, if a woman is extremely beautiful, I think it is acceptable for her to have a high notch count. I don't really care about her being faithful. I would only care about possible offspring being mine.

So in order to get what you want as your bigger goal (a LTR or nuclear family one day) you need a woman who understands this separation of sex and love in you, and perhaps is capable of that herself. Those are high notch count women.

Yes, although I don't necessarily need a LTR or nuclear family, so this is not so relevant.

If tomorrow you were to meet your ideal woman, and she was interested in you, what would that look like? Give that a real think. Right now you say you want a family but you are behaving in a way that is diametrically opposed to the commitments and challenges and rewards of intimacy and family life.

I'm not sure I want a family (perhaps I've said so before, but my thoughts are evolving) - offspring is really what I care about.

You need to look at the damage that is being done to your own humanity in giving these beautiful succumbuses your money and your time. There is an opportunity cost you are paying that you may not realize or appreciate.

No, the damage done to my own humanity was far greater when I was not having sex regularly. I agree this is not the healthiest way to get sexual needs met, but it works for someone like me. I also enjoy the thrill of meeting someone new from time to time.

You say all relationships are transactional. Perhaps. But there are different levels to that. The banal level is where you reside. You are not exchanging sacrificial love with another. That is what real love requires, sacrifice of self for something greater. For the lover, for the relationship, for the children, for the regimen (in the military). Love is sacrifice and from that struggle and that sacrifice meaningfulness arises.

There are women capable of this. They are not escorts. Your habits are going to rob you of the opportunity to have what you say you REALLY want in time. You are creating damage in yourself that you cannot see.

I don't believe there are. Also, I'm not looking for love or validation from women.

And do NOT give me that bullcrap that you are happy doing this. You aren't. Your sexual needs are being met but your deeper human needs are starving. That is why you mull this matter over in your mind when you are quiet or alone. Meanwhile that devil time slowly and surely steals your hours in beautiful worthlessness, and eventually will leave you with nothing.

I'm not happy, but I'm indifferent. It's just life, you have to make the best of it. I've said before that I love beautiful women and I love sex - meeting high-end escorts is a workable way of fulfilling these needs.

I really don't have any hope left for a traditional relationship. Now I'm just trying to enjoy life in other ways. I have some hope left for having children one day, maybe with one of the escorts I'm seeing, who knows.

 

[MatureDJ]

My life is, in many ways, better than what I had expected it could be when growing up. I come from a lower middle class family from a poor country in Europe.

Go back and GeoMax in your home country. Unlike an American GeoMaxxer, you get to use the excuse that you want to get back to your roots.

EDIT: OK, if your home country is Russia-Ukraine-Belarus, then I could understand how that isn't an option now.

 

[BeExcellent]

Ok, I'll respond (because you are one of the more intelligent posters on this board). But let me ask you a question as well: why do you care so much about some anonymous forum poster to revive an inactive thread? Why is my story making you think deeply and ask these questions?



Right now, I want to enjoy life and keep improving in areas I'm interested in. I know I would want offspring one day, but not necessarily a traditional family. I'm not sure I'm capable of living a family life. I've realized that I am too self-centered. Recently been reading about the so-called dark triad personality traits, which seem to be describing me well. I've known for a long time that I'm probably not a "normal" person and maybe should not aim for things that most people aim for.



Yes, I've become more open to the idea. I'm not any better than these women, so I don't care about their high notch count. In fact, if a woman is extremely beautiful, I think it is acceptable for her to have a high notch count. I don't really care about her being faithful. I would only care about possible offspring being mine.



Yes, although I don't necessarily need a LTR or nuclear family, so this is not so relevant.



I'm not sure I want a family (perhaps I've said so before, but my thoughts are evolving) - offspring is really what I care about.



No, the damage done to my own humanity was far greater when I was not having sex regularly. I agree this is not the healthiest way to get sexual needs met, but it works for someone like me. I also enjoy the thrill of meeting someone new from time to time.



I don't believe there are. Also, I'm not looking for love or validation from women.



I'm not happy, but I'm indifferent. It's just life, you have to make the best of it. I've said before that I love beautiful women and I love sex - meeting high-end escorts is a workable way of fulfilling these needs.

I really don't have any hope left for a traditional relationship. Now I'm just trying to enjoy life in other ways. I have some hope left for having children one day, maybe with one of the escorts I'm seeing, who knows.

Thank you for your kind words.

It sounds like you have a sensible outlook, and understand what you need and who is best to meet those needs.

One advantage this forum offers is the advantage of time passage. With the passage of a few years comes greater life experience and changes in perspective that are not noticeable incrementally.

As for me I like to keep up with people here who I feel are genuine in seeking advice to better their own circumstances. I also understand well individuals with dark triad traits and you seem to be one of those people. Part of maturing for dark triad people is understanding that other people are not pawns or objects to be used for your purposes. This is important for you particularly if you want children.

Children need love. That means putting their needs above yours at times. That can be a big ask for a dark triad men.

So my interest in you and others here is genuine & well intended.

 

[BeExcellent]

I'm pretty sure he's meaning that he wants to pass on his genes, and that's it. So it's irrelevant.

No it’s not irrelevant. If he wants his kids to have direction in life & not be losers (which what father wants loser kids) then he’s going to need to be a father.

If he only wants his genes to survive there’s a sperm bank for that.

He wants a legacy. That means fatherhood is required.

 

[allergictobs]

I'm pretty sure he's meaning that he wants to pass on his genes, and that's it. So it's irrelevant.

It's somewhat more than that. I think it would bring me joy to see my own children grow up and become successful human beings. I would want to make sure they have everything they need.

He wants a legacy. That means fatherhood is required.

Yes. But like everything in life, I would approach fatherhood my own way. I think that women/mothers are the natural primary caregivers to a child. The father's role is much more insignificant (despite what some people in the manosphere are claiming), and is mostly about protecting the children and the mother.

For the record, I don't think single moms are categorically doing a poor job raising children - it has more to do with the intelligence level of the mother than her being single. If she has a healthy attitude, the children will grow up just fine. The father can teach valuable lessons about life, but that does not require him to be around all the time, especially when the kids are young.

 

[Rainman4707]

Hi guys,

I've just recently discovered this site, but many of the concepts have been familiar to me for years, decades even. I'm not really about learning game, but I read the "book of Pook", and many of the concepts in that series of posts have been second nature to me for my whole life.

I thought I'd collect my thoughts and write about my situation to clear my mind a bit. Any comments are of course welcome.

Here's a short version of the long story that follows:
- 36 years old, life in good order
- Physically fit, at peak fitness
- High status profession, financially well of
- Extreme lifestyle, very much a lone wolf type of guy
- Always been red-pilled, never put any woman on a pedestal
- Girls actually chased me in my early 20s, I was too busy chasing my own dreams
- Now, over a decade later - achieved most of my goals, but no sex life, zero women in social circle
- Have stopped trying to date women, puzzled by today's dating scene - looking for solutions



Long story (I'll break this up into smaller parts):


Let me start with the good things

My life is, in many ways, better than what I had expected it could be when growing up. I come from a lower middle class family from a poor country in Europe. At 36, I'm healthy, in the best shape of my life. I go to gym 4-5x a week and have the same, if not better, physique that I had in my early 20s (I have more muscle mass now than back then, body fat is consistently 10-15%).

I've climbed the corporate ladder to reach a comfortable position with a lot of freedom and great coworkers. It's a high status profession and the pay is very good, too. The only thing I don't like about it is commuting, but what can you do.

On top of my day job, a couple of years ago I started a side business. It has recently started paying quite well, and with three sources of income (career job, side business, and investments), I'm doing quite well financially.

I've achieved many of the things I've set as goals. I played competitive sports when I was younger. I traveled the world in my early 20s. I got the "dream career" in the corporate world. I don't have many items on my checklist anymore. These days, I'm mainly interested in health, and growing my side business and seeing if it can really take off in the coming years.

I'm single, and have been for years. Never married, only had one long-term relationship in my life. I've always been the type of guy who did his own thing, did not follow others' advice. And I really mean that. I have had to fight against the herd quite a few times regarding life choices. I have had to leave behind old friends several times in life and find new ones who are more like-minded.



Lifestyle, personality, and problems

My lifestyle has always been quite extreme. I rarely stop to "have fun" in the sense that most people talk about having fun. I don't party, I don't drink, I don't relax the same way that most people do. This is VERY important, something that cannot be changed: To me, having fun is progressing, competing and challenging oneself. Yes, I did go to parties and had the typical college experience when I was young, but I never liked it much, I just wanted to experience it to understand what it's all about.

The same goes with relationships. I really, really dislike hanging out in a pointless way. I just cannot do it - there has to be a purpose, such as playing a sport, having a meaningful conversation, or learning something new. But any type of "hey you wanna come over, have a few beers and watch the game" I've almost always responded with "no thanks". I cannot change this part in myself, I have tried hard when I was younger.

My days are mainly comprised of these activities:
- Workdays at the office (about 9 hours including commuting)
- Workouts and recovering (0-2 hours per day)
- Developing/running side business (0-4 hours per day)
- Other sports (golf, skiing, tennis, etc.) (mainly on weekends/vacations)
- Reading/learning new things (2-4 hours per day)
- Sleeping (8 hours per day)

I like all this about my life. I have plenty of stuff to do. I'm never bored. I've never really been bored.

But here's what I'm missing big time: sex, intimacy, even a relationship. No, I'm not looking for love or companionship (I don't mind those things, but I'm not actively seeking them), but a regular sex life.

My personality seems to require a traditional type of woman - one who is after a guy like myself. I have experienced it once, in my early 20s. I met a girl who was very feminine. She admired my dedication and just wanted to be in my boat. I was the captain, she was the passenger. She did not require any "entertainment" like going out or spending time doing pointless stuff. I just ****ed her silly, and the rest of the time I carried on with my own stuff. We had the funny conversations and stuff that couples do, even traveled together, but it was all on my terms. Maybe she secretly wanted something more, but she seemed very content with what she got. Eventually after a few years, I got too focused on my own things and broke up with her.

I need a relationship to be of the type where she is very feminine and submissive. I simply would not enter any other type of relationship. Sometimes I wonder if the ideal "relationship" for me would be with a hooker or an escort, since I'm mainly after sex. But I am interested in some kind of stability, so I want to be exclusive with just one person. I just need to be the dominant person in the relationship.

I'm quite rebellious by nature, and have a hard time playing a certain role or doing favors for other people. I'm very straightforward with everything and don't really care about other people's feelings. Basically, I'm the guy in the room who calls bull**** first. As for dating, I'm not able to jump through hoops to date a woman. I absolutely hate trying to impress other people, including women, because that puts you in an inferior position, like you need to prove something. In my view, she either likes you the way you are, and if not, it's her loss (blunt, I know).

My social circle consists of only men, most of whom have a somewhat similar personality to mine. Almost all of them are married with kids though, so I'm an odd person in that sense. I have zero female friends and acquaintances outside work. I've never had any female friends, in fact, no woman has ever wanted to be my friend and vice versa (I don't know if this is a good or a bad thing).

So as you can understand from the above, my situation is probably not very typical. I realize I'm a pretty extreme person, and I've tried changing and playing along when I was younger, but by this age, my personality is very much what it is.

I love your menatlity of i wont waste my time watching crap on tv or anything that dose'nt improve me. You have been a man on a mission, working, grinding very hard. Therefore you are demonstrating the main thing women want - masculinity.

However if you want to be with a girl, eventually they will want commitment. The attitude and menatlity you have is me, me and more me. There is no me in relationship. Relationships are all about giving. You should be happy to give to the your GF. I don’t think compromise is in your vocabulary.