How women turn men into AFC's, and how to stop it

00Kevin

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: How women turn men into AFC's, and how to stop it

Originally posted by iqqi
Yes, well, arguing with a man about his irresponsibility is about as productive as an athiest arguing with a fundamentalist regarding the bible...

Perhaps you could tell everyone here how men are irresponsible?
Please make a list and then show us how women don't act the same way.
 

WatchMeWalk

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Even better, you can quit it with the "I know you are, but what am I?" debating style. It's not earning you sympathy.
 

Eric Smith

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Wow, so much to post on this issue. Lets begin.

I've heard women of all sorts complain about their various and contradicting relationship problems, ranging from "He's not sensitive" to "Where are the REAL men."
Truth is I've noticed that girls have too high of expectations for me. No, odds are they will not find someone like Vin Diesel, Brad Pitt, James Bond, etc. yet expect Joe Schlub to be like the aforementioned. She gets angry. Women want to change a man into their own liking. When its hopeless, she spins a web of utter lies to justify why she is leaving and seldomly are the man's emotions ever considered a factor. Its more about making HER feel good about herself in the end. Keep in mind I'm not a misogynist by any means...this is just the honest truth.

After much thought, I've come to the conclusion that WOMEN are to blame for their own unhappiness when it comes to relationship with men, but are incapable of accepting responsibility for it.
True. They are rarely decisive and when they are, its unrealistic expectations. Yet she expects the man to fully conform because she has a vagina, something she thinks he needs more than she needs a penis. Which in most cases thanks to society, she is right.

They cannot even imagine how confused and frustrated most good men are when it comes to women. Yet, if you try to explain it to them, they say "Oh, stop whining and BE A MAN." And women are supposed to be nurturing, as well as good communicators! What bullshyt.
They don't want any responsibility, guilt, shame, etc. on them. They try to roll off their problems on others to walk away with a clean slate of consciousness. Men do this often too. People in general are more likely to point the finger at others instead of themselves, even if the person themself is the only one to blame in a situation. However women get away with it a lot more because they are seen as sensitive, fragile people who cannot take their lumps like they should.

You are shocked to find out that not only does the "rational" way of relating to women not work, the very women you are trying to impress think you are a fool for doing it, even though they don't tell you that. You only figure it out when you have went out of your way for some girl, only to find out you have been used and then discarded. You are more confused, frustrated, and depressed than ever.
Most women have no objections of using a man up like a sponge. However if vice-versa applies, he is a monster that should be removed from society. Society is pretty much messed up and in the hands of psychotic women.

Look at the facts. The person (woman) by whom you judge your worth, is typically deceptive, manipulative, arbitrary, and selfish. She likely has NO regard for your wellbeing.
She most likely doesn't. Most women don't feel the need to spend much emotional time on a man because the man is expendable, especially if she is a HB7+. If she is not what he wants, she will have little problems finding a man who will do whatever she says until she discards him. Then she moves on to the next victim until she finds a real man who won't take her BS. Most women cheat today because they can. I would say the odds are likely that a man will take back a cheating woman than vice versa. Honestly if I found out a girl of mine is cheating and we are exclusive, her ass is out on the street. Most people I know will give her a second chance...only for her to cheat 1-2 months later or less.

Once think about it, and realize its truth, the opinion of a woman will no longer have any power over you.
I stopped really paying attention to the power of the woman weeks ago during what I think was an emotional growth spurt. They have to prove their worth to me. If they fail the test, I'm not chasing them. It takes more than a pair of tits and a vagina to get me interested.

It is always something wrong with A MAN if his relationships are not successful.
Often times it is a man's fault. Women will always see just how far she can push to get whatever she wants. In a way this is the "Daddy complex" where she finds a man who is just like her father aka a manservant. She demands so much from him but offers so little. Thats why they go after bad boys. They are so much different from what she was used to for the first 18 years of her life or so. Good guys are often told as the ideal on this board but I think finding a mix between the good guy and the bad boy is the ideal situation. You take risks in life and she is expendable to you. If she doesn't play right, she is gone because the guy has a waiting list of other women who will be more than happy to be his arm charm. You have one person in your life that is important (other than family) and that is you. No girl will ever change that.

Women in turn want men to be gentlemen and classy and 9 times out of 10 the first guys they gravitate toward are 100 percent jerks
They wish that it happened. Have you ever noticed how throughout your life, you move into better houses, drive better cars, live life better when you get more money? Nobody in life is ever content with anything. Its the process of self improvement. Women want to turn jerks into gentleman but once that happens, she ditches him and replaces him with another project. Why? She has the perfect man but perfection to people is fine for a while and then gets boring. How many dinner dates will it take before she is bored to tears? How many dozens of roses will it take before she just tosses them in the trash after receiving them? How many times will it take for her to get tired of cookie cutter AFCs that promise her the world because all she has to offer is a vagina?

Women want those that stray away from the gentleman like aspects. They don't want an alcoholic abuser but they want someone that appreciates them...somewhat. They make the woman feel sexual, they excite her with unpredictability, they don't kiss her ass because she hasn't earned it, etc. See what I'm saying? Its not that women are messed up, its that this is human nature; something we cannot fight. We will never beat it so there is no point in changing human genetics and behavior.

Men are portrayed horribly in Hollywood and by our culture at large.
What have men done to refute this? Nothing. That is the problem. When was the last time that you've seen a real man in the theaters? Even James Bond has gotten soft since Brosnan took the role (the true 007 nature died with Dalton's leave if you ask me) Vin Diesel is the only actor I know that only takes up masculine roles. He never is feminine, not once. Yet its funny to hear how girls want to nail him so bad. Yet he is not even attractive as he has a nasal exaggerated voice, looks like a redneck, and can't act his way out of a paper bag. Brad Pitt in Fight Club and Arnold in just about every movie except Junior are also good candidates. Three actors overall. Compared to the hundreds of AFCs out there destroying the good gender that is the male.

Biggest myth perpetuated by women: THAT THEY CAN CHANGE MEN. Never has happened on this planet, never will.
They are changing men. That is the problem. Women get bored of these changed men and move on. When they find a real man, thats when most of their BS is tossed out the window.
 

00Kevin

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Everything the original poster stated is true. There is clearly some bitterness in his post, but you can't blame him for it. I've gone through everything he described.

The challenge is not to be bitter about it. You just need to put women in a different perspective.

I have accepted the fact that the vast majority of women have problems and are not worth your time. Most women are not givers they are takers. Men are the natural providers and we are usually the ones giving away everything we have.

Why do we do this? Because it is woman that is our weakness. It is only through understanding of that weakness we become stronger. Isn't it ironic, that despite our physical strength, all the knowledge we have, and all the power we command, it is something frail that challenges us? You can be a man and accept this or you can be bitter about it.

Men must also accept the natural order of things. This order dictates that a man looks up to his creator (or to the universe for answers) and women look up to man. As men we demand just as much out of our creator as women do of us.

I like to think that women on a mass conscious level are going through a childish phase.

Denial: Not accepting their roles as mothers and nurturers.

Anger: Feeling frustrated with their roles and hating men for not making them happy.

Guilt: Feeling despair or depression when their beloved social constructs such as marriage evaporate.

Acceptance: Acknowledging men for their role and accepting their own

Appreciating: Appreciating men for who they are.


Where do you think they are now? I wonder how long it will take before they get to the last step. How about a generation a phase? 2150 if we are lucky.
 

WestCoaster

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Iqqi -- not smart enough, has to resort to insults

Between purging herself to make herself look like a twig, she gets on here and posts and calls people names. You called it Player Supreme, predictable as a Swiss watch.

Watch her come back with her white trash name calling, showing a complete lack of intellect. Amazing. You'd think the beyotch could write a coherent sentence.
 

NatureGuy

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Seriously, you've got to be kidding yourself if you think you can blame "women" for all your problems.
Sounds a bit angry and over-reactive to me.
And no, you're not representing most men
(certainly not me). You really should seek some counseling (a guy counseler !).
 

Bonhomme

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Wow, this topic spun out

Men do get a lot of bad programming, no doubt. But the wisest and strongest don't swallow it.

*************

To say either gender has a monopoly on irresponsibility is quite ... irresponsible.

10-4
 

PlayerinTraining

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What a manipulated man...

Originally posted by NatureGuy
Seriously, you've got to be kidding yourself if you think you can blame "women" for all your problems.
Sounds a bit angry and over-reactive to me.
And no, you're not representing most men
(certainly not me). You really should seek some counseling (a guy counseler !).
First, I have to laugh at these responses telling me to seek "help", simply because I refuse to view women as virtuous creatures they browbeat men into thinking they are.

Second, I'm not blaming women for my problems, only THEIR behavior. Call me a jerk, but I DID think women were capable of behaving in a civilized fashion, otherwise, there would be no "bitterness" toward them.

Lets just look at some statistics, as my beliefs are based on social scientific research:

1) Between 10 and 30% of children born are not the biological offspring of the man the woman claims is the father! Women are getting pregnant by one man, and tricking another man into raising it! Is that the action of a virtuous person, worthy of respect and admiration?

In many states in the US, even if a male can prove he is not the father through scientific evidence, the courts will STILL force him to support the child.

Is that justice, or is that evidence of a grossly unjust double standard where irresponsible women pawn off their errors in judgement onto an unsuspecting man?

http://www.fathersforlife.org/pater1.htm

2) We all hear about male on female abuse, but research has shown that aproximately half of all assaults between men and women are instigated by the female. Yet, the male is the one arrested, whether he starts it, or is defending himself.

More interesting: Since 1975, male on female violence has decreased significantly, while female on male violence has increased. These statistics don't even take into account more subtle forms of female abuse, such as false accusations of violence, or instances where a female gets another male to carry out her violent acts.

http://www.dvmen.org/dv-38.htm

That's enough for statistics. Its as if people thought it was irrational of me to expect women to live up to the same standards of conduct they expect men to follow. Oh how silly of me!

There are an almost infinite number of examples I can present that will demonstrate a deep seated double standard that favors women over men.

This very thread is a giant example of a double standard. No one questions the sanity of a woman who says "All men are jerks!" or tells her to get counseling. If anything, she gets all the sympathy in the world. No one tells her "Stop blaming men for your problems."

If they do, they are considered insensitive.

My original post was not about "blaming women", but about knocking them off the pedistal men have unwittingly placed them on. Whether we admit it to ourselves or not, American culture defines manliness as "whatever satisfies a woman." Men are taught that they are "good" when women like them, and worthless if women reject them. Given that women simply refuse to take responsibilty for their choices, that way of thinking is what causes men to suffer and be afraid of women.

Our language has been corrupted so much that it seems to be impossible for someone to be able to imagine any negative generalization about females to be true.
 
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legolas

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Well let's ask the question, "How did women get to this point?" PlayerinTraining explains it well through the revolution called feminism. And yes, it was males who accepted the views of feminism and then tunred them into the unspoken laws that society now has, which have clearly given women too much power. Power, which they never fail to use to their own interests. Many examples were given here so I won't go into that.

So just accepting the views of feminism got us to this point, and now it is biting us on the ass!! I suggest we start a revolution on the rights of males, so that everyone can see the manipulative nature that feminism has created for most women. Anyone remember how feminism got started?

If you're too lazy to start a revolution, then let's leave it and go and marry us a chick from eastern europe or latin america. Has anybody bought the noMarriage.com Manual?
 

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This is a very right on post, bros. Props for writing this, Playa. Now, let's take this knowledge and use it. One thing that I like to do to turn competition into AFCs is to tell women that the other guy fits into this category of men that has fallen into the "nice guy" and "provider male" frame.

For example, if I want to frame a chode as a "nice guy" when a random chump is trying to drag a girl away from me, I'll tell the girl, "This guy seems like a nice guy...but I guess he's really into trying to control you and put you in check and that just reaks of jealousy, but I guess he is the nice guy.

Another thing that I'll do is I'll tell the girl that her boyfriends are "provider males", such as "wow, he sounds like such a nice guy that will be the kind of guy who just buys you dinners, flowers, and whatever you want. I guess that's so nice to do such thing for you."

Girls will begin to disqualify the guys if you frame the other male competitors as lame, stable, nice, boring, provider males as you demonstrate that you are the adventurous, fun, exciting bad boy that she wants to have sex with regularly on or the side while her chumpish boyfriend pays her bills.
 

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Hi.

I will not agree or disagree with anything in this thread; I will simply offer my own view (which is influenced by TylerDurden from mASF as Pap may notice).

It is pretty obvious that women treat AFC men in ways that can get as bad as borderline psychological abuse. Even when they know that they are acting unfairly, they seem to believe that we should "just deal with it." As if men had infinite fortitude, or masochistic tendencies. Should women have to "just deal with" date rape? I don't even have to answer that question.

Here is the basic problem: women mistreat men totally obliviously, and even when they realize they are acting unfairly, they expect him just take it.

Yet that is not the root of the problem. To examine the root, we must ask why the hell do women act like that in the first place, why are men expected to take that treatment, and what can we do about it??

The real culprit is not women. It is our culture. The culture that sets women up as our unwitting executioners. The culture that sells everyone a lie about male-female interaction, and a wrong cognitive model for relationships. Women benefit from that lie; men pay for it. Yet—I have finally released all blame for women.

The problem is not women. The problem we have is all the myths that we were sold about women. Our culture tells us to judge women the same way we judge men: by qualities such as integrity, honesty, constancy, reciprocity, etc...Yet from interacting with women, it become painfully OBVIOUS that they often fail to display these characteristics in sexual/romantic relationships.

Here is what I would like to suggest: our culture was teaching us to expect the WRONG things from women. If they had admitting all along that women will act totally flighty and flaky, we would have known that, and avoided some major pitfalls. It is not a problem itself that women are flighty. The problem is the myth that says that women are NOT flighty.

Maybe it is ok for women to be flighty (and have other qualities the we men see as negative). Now we need to learn to CAPITALIZE on their flightiness. I don't care if she is flighty and has sex with a guy who pushes her hot buttons...as long as I can make sure that guy is me, rather than some bastard! Pap gives another example: women stomp on men who provide for them, or treat them well. The trick for us is to be on the right end of this, instead of the wrong end, by making sure she stomps on guys that compete with us, rather than on us ourselves.

In conclusion:

• Women are (generally) not to be blamed for their ****ty behavior, our culture is.
• It doesn't work to judge a woman the way you judge a guy.
If I was to blame women for their behavior, I would still be thinking out of the set of myths that made me an AFC in the first place. For instance, I was to blame women for rejecting me in my nice guy days, I would be still hanging on to the erroneous belief that women should like nice guys.
• We need to capitalize on the weird tendencies of women by learning pickup/seduction (or whatever you guys call it around here).

See what I'm getting at???
 

Bonhomme

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Please yourself first

I read you, SourFox
 

NatureGuy

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Please, get yourself some help. The very fact that you respond in such a tense and reactive
manner says alot about your state.
Good luck.
 

legolas

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Originally posted by SourFox
• Women are (generally) not to be blamed for their ****ty behavior, our culture is.
So you're saying that men are to be blamed for their problems, because if it isn't women, and it is our socitey, and our society is made up of women and men,(male and female) then logically it has be men who are responsible for this.

Just read any seduction book. It teaches men to DO certain things so that women will act the way we want them to act. It's like she is the system, and we are the program trying to get into the system (pun intended) so we have to be the flexible ones, while she just sits there and REACTS to our behavior.

Why can't she change while we change so we meet in the middle? Because society tells her that she doesn't have to. So she believes that she doesn't have to and for her it becomes a game of picking and choosing.

Oh sh!it, I just had an epiphany!!!!

Society is not to blame either!!!! Biology is! You see males represent the hundreds of thousands of spermatozoids who are racing to get into the egg. She represents the egg, just sitting there weeding out the sperms until she will let ONE of them through. All society did, is take that model and taught it to women. If one sperm breakes the rules, so he can get into the egg at any cost, then he has to blamed for it, since the egg is the passive one.

If I was to blame women for their behavior, I would still be thinking out of the set of myths that made me an AFC in the first place. For instance, I was to blame women for rejecting me in my nice guy days, I would be still hanging on to the erroneous belief that women should like nice guys.
I don't agree entirely. While it is true that back in the day we blamed women when the problem was with the way WE acted, once we realized that we needed to change the way we acted, we also realized that women are still to blame for the f*cked up ways that they act.

The are to blame for all the intricate pathways they create for the guy BEFORE they will allow him anywhere near their pants. They realize that they want it too, but society, or biology or whatever, teaches them to create challenge after challenge so in the end only the victorious guys make it through.

Most of the time though, they get caught up in creating these intricate pathways that they get high on it, and keep making it impossible for the poor guy to get close. No wonder most males are depressed. They don't realize that this is all part of the weeding process.

• We need to capitalize on the weird tendencies of women by learning pickup/seduction (or whatever you guys call it around here).

See what I'm getting at???
Sure.
However this way of thinking ASSUMES that all guys need p*ssy and that they are willing to learn intricate pathways to get to the woman's pants, which is similar to a thoughtful sperm learning intricate ways to get inside the egg, while the rest of them complain that the road inside the egg is so complex and hard.

But is f*cking really our highest purpose in life? Would we have the ability to think and rationalize if all we were supposed to do in life was f*ck? If it were, we wold just be like animals and we wold f*ck when we found a female in heat.

See where I'm getting at???

Hint: Look beyond f*cking :D
 

bp1974

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There's a time I'd have jumped up and down in agreement with the whole "women are irresponsible and they've made us all into wimps" argument. But I've been there, and come out the other side. No doubt there are women behaving like that, as there are men, but seeing "wimmin" as one big block of enemy isn't very useful in the long run.

The reality is that both men and women are confused, hurting and struggling to find their way in a world increasingly dominated by confusing messages about what we should all be expecting from life. Whenever someone claims to have the answer to everyone's problems there's a big stampede towards them and their ideas get thrown around for the next couple of years, before disappearing without a trace.

At the moment, we're in a very pro-woman political era, where most statistics and 'facts' seem to be collected with the notion of drip-feeding us all the idea of woman-as-victim, man-as-lazy or abusive. Even the idea that women are a minority, even though they're 51% of the population, smacks of victimhood. However this is starting to be debunked already as more people take a closer look at the real facts, and normal women realise they aren't victims, and don't want to be treated as such.

Radical Feminism hoodwinked Western women just as much as men, and causes women as much pain as it's causing men. Imagine growing up being told that you can "Have it all", then getting to 39 to be told "Sorry, no children for you. Ever." Most women don't know that their fertility begins to drop at 27, and by 39 they're almost totally infertile. Cosmo doesn't write about that when it screams out "Party into your forties girls!!!"

Once you realise that, accepting that as people we are all victims of our topsy-turvy stupid-media driven society, as well as being all responsible for the difficulties we have in our lives, and that we're trying to find the best life we can, then you'll be on the way to finding the kind of relationship you want.

*Climbs down from soapbox to let someone else have a go*
 
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DonCruez

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*gets on BP1974's soapbox*

Fact: women are biologically wired to be more self-centered.

A stone age tribe would lose more "reproductive power" by losing a female than by losing a male. This is also the reason why there are approx. 105 boys on every 200 births. Boys/ men are more likely to take a risk and therefore more prone to accidents (and great deeds!) than women.

Fact: Economically, women don't really need men anymore. With IVF, they don't even need us for reproduction. Emotionally, however, they need us as much (or even more) as we need them.

Fact: Feminist dogma always points to men as oppressors, abusers, pigs. Can you believe that at the moment the only being you can make fun of in public is the white, heterosexual male? Even advertising portrays men as dorks and losers.

Result: utter confusion for both genders. But both genders react to this in another manner.

Women (see fact 1) will always try to find an external source to blame (ie, men). They can't find a man, must be because "there are no real men left". What a "real man" is, they don't know...

Men, OTOH, will blame themselfs: "why can't I find a woman? Must be something wrong with ME".

just my .02€

*sets fire to soapbox*
 

iqqi

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good morning/afternnon/evening, gentlemen. how are you this wintry day? i am fine myself, nicely recovering from my flu-like symptoms, most of sanity-cells are also recovered. i would like to admit to my rather tactless accusations the other day, i was not myself, you do understand i am sure. having said that, i stand by the essence of what i said.

but i will explain it more, seeing as anyone on this thread is most likely highly sensitive and feminised enough to even seek rationalization for their own weakness, in women! HA! oh, i am sorry, i am not fully well today, so i may still have a few outbursts. thank you in advance for your cooperation you are too kind.

you see, you are seeking to rationalize. anything but to internalize. "but, but..." you weak, hurt, misunderstood men cry out, "that is what we have been saying! we are expected to carry the blame!"

well good lawd, ain't that just awful. absolutely UNFAIR!!! (actually, and here is a spoiler to a later wisdom i will graciously bestow apon you, this is GOOD).

it is so easy to blame. to point the finger. to rationalize. to say "SHE did it, it is her fault!"

but how could she do it? without you.

(think about that before you read anymore, i bet that simple statement will go right over some of your heads.)


MEN AND WOMEN ARE PEOPLE.

not separate species. women are not that hard to understand. they do the same things men do! you are on here moaning and woeing over the fact that women take advantage of men.

correction, young grasshoppers: weak PEOPLE take advantage of weaker PEOPLE.

carry on.
 

PlayerinTraining

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Originally posted by NatureGuy
Please, get yourself some help. The very fact that you respond in such a tense and reactive
manner says alot about your state.
Good luck.
When I posted my reply to you, I was actually in a very good mood.

I find it amusing when people dismiss other well supported ponits of view simply by telling the other person that "they need help."

So, you are mistaken when you say my reply indicates a "tense and reactive" state. Maybe you are projecting your feelings as you read my posts, onto me?
 

PlayerinTraining

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Originally posted by iqqi
you see, you are seeking to rationalize. anything but to internalize. "but, but..." you weak, hurt, misunderstood men cry out, "that is what we have been saying! we are expected to carry the blame!"

well good lawd, ain't that just awful. absolutely UNFAIR!!! (actually, and here is a spoiler to a later wisdom i will graciously bestow apon you, this is GOOD).

it is so easy to blame. to point the finger. to rationalize. to say "SHE did it, it is her fault!"

but how could she do it? without you.
And this is the best iqqi can do--redirect the focus back to men.

The major problem men who come here have is that they take on TOO much responsibility. They take responsibility for things that are fundamentally out of their control--such as the behavior of a woman.

Lets take adultery, for example. If a woman cheats on her husband, I don't think a man should ask (although too many do) "What did I do wrong?' since no human being can control another human being. That means a man CANNOT control what a woman will do.

Anything a man does to minimize the risk of his woman's cheating with another guy can be criticized. If he takes a strong stand, and monitors her every move, many would say he demonstrated insecurity, which drove her into the bed of another man.

If he treats her "too well", others would say he acted like an AFC, a symp, or a sucker. If he treats her with indifference, others (most likely female critics) would say he didn't pay enough attention to her needs.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Bottom line: a man IS NOT RESPONSIBLE for the things a woman does. He can ONLY control his reactions to them.

(think about that before you read anymore, i bet that simple statement will go right over some of your heads.)
I just find the double standard regarding responsibility interesting. If a woman has an affair, or does something to make him miserable, he is always responsible.

Yet, when a woman is harmed by her own behaviors (gets pregnant, and the father leaves), no one ever suggests she should take responsibility for HER suffering.
 

iqqi

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Originally posted by PlayerinTraining
I just find the double standard regarding responsibility interesting. If a woman has an affair, he is always responsible...
riiiight....what planet do you reside? obviously in your own fcuked up head, as any self respecting PERSON would know what's up.

Yet, when a woman is harmed by her own behaviors (gets pregnant, and the father leaves), no one ever suggests she should take responsibility for HER suffering.
oh, i see, you are just fcuking retarded.
 
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