How Feminism Ruined Dating

[DanelMadr]

Atom Smasher and Jophil,

I believe you. When my father was young it was common to have a fight at bar for example. And I see that as significant difference. Now it is pretty uncommon and the participants are viewed as criminals. I remember the climate at school....'Fights are bad for whatever just reason M'Kay.' was the mantra.
Male teachers were few but highly praised by us - girls and boys.
And there was this Bully Mania.
Rant>
I was the tallest at my class so I was automatically the bad one. When someone pushed me and I retaliated I was the aggressor because 'you can't beat someone smaller or weaker than you.' (Not to mention only person being bullied was myself, because older guys, which I feared, had no such problems...as I wasn't a rat to tell on them, heh).
>end of rant

You are right about the surge of Left thinking. It probably comes with peace hysteria and prosperity. The pill and welfare took out the responsibility out of equation. Lack of responsibility and easy life make cowards. I don't say all Left are cowards and takers but it sure attracts them and it grows.

But I don't mind living now. I wouldn't change that. It is a mess but you have the freedom. When someone behaves well in total freedom you can bet he or she is the real deal. When it was the social norm to be manly, girls had to settle soon and divorce was frowned upon and it was risky to be divorced as girls couldn't provide for themselves, well, when people were "forced" to behave, it was not solid.

 

[Zarky]

I was in high school in the 70s and I can tell you that even though feminism was in its formative years, there was respect, a complete lack of flaking (it was utterly unheard of), a feeling of being fortunate (on the female's part) for being asked on a date, and a sense of personal responsibility, although far below ours. At least there was a semblance there.

All right, well at least this guy has taken me up (sort of) on my challenge to name a scenario where non-feminist culture would actually be better for dating then current culture.

Assuming, arguendo, that he's right, "back in the day" women never flaked, "felt fortunate" they were asked out, and had a "sense of personal responsibility" whatever that means.

So I'm guessing that, if there were no feminism, if any guy here asked any girl out, the girl wouldn't flake on him and would "feel fortunate" that he asked her at all. That's as good as it gets for the non-feminist dating world?

Pretty sad. In the meantime he'd have to do all the paying, he'd have to wait and wait and wait for sex, he'd have to jump through all the standard masculine hoops that men have had to jump through for millennia.

Fairly raw deal AFAIC. I'll take women who are flakier but put out on the first or second date thanks.

Anybody else have any real-world situations and not just hand-wringing? It really feels to me like b!tching and whining about women is the ultimate act of a beta. Lots of beta boys on this thread and in these forums?
Guess so.

 

[Atom Smasher]

So I'm guessing that, if there were no feminism, if any guy here asked any girl out, the girl wouldn't flake on him and would "feel fortunate" that he asked her at all. That's as good as it gets for the non-feminist dating world?

Pretty sad. In the meantime he'd have to do all the paying, he'd have to wait and wait and wait for sex, he'd have to jump through all the standard masculine hoops that men have had to jump through for millennia.

Fairly raw deal AFAIC. I'll take women who are flakier but put out on the first or second date thanks.

No so. In the 70s I could get laid anytime I wanted to at the drop of a hat. It was SO ridiculously easy. And I was an almost total beta afc.

Yes, we did most of the paying but in those better days women were financially more dependent on men, the way it should be (it is the way of nature). Still, I was only a teenager then, so yes, I bought them their fries and milkshakes and in return reaped the benefits of having a devoted girlfriend. I wasn't much for pump 'n dump, but that was ridiculously easy, too.

See, dude, you are so hung up on your own "knowledge" that you can't even conceive of things being different.

You were taught by a feminized system and you are simply regurgitating much of their doctrine, just the way they trained you to. You've got to make that leap out of your own limited box of education and experience and take a global view by exposing your mind to others who have been there.

No one ever thought that time could literally be slowed down until Einstein came along. "Of course time can't be slowed down. Just look around. We observe that time is a constant."

One man came along and questioned the accepted conclusion to limited understanding of the visible observation, and came up with the principle of relativity.

I'd better shut up now, lest I start sounding like Charlie S.

 

[Zarky]

Well, your anecdotal evidence of "getting laid at the drop of a hat" is hardly an argument.

But I'll go with it for now. You're saying that for men in non-feminized cultures, getting laid is far easier and cheaper?

And pulling the whole "I'm older than you so I know better than you" is a really weak argument. You need to point to specifics, other than your personal history where it was easy for you to get laid in high school but now it isn't. You're extrapolating your own experiences into some sort of blanket model of human interaction. This is fallacious.

You need to use deductive reasoning, not inductive, in cases like these. Because you do not have enough data points to use inductive, you only have your own.

 

[Atom Smasher]

Well, your anecdotal evidence of "getting laid at the drop of a hat" is hardly an argument.

But I'll go with it for now. You're saying that for men in non-feminized cultures, getting laid is far easier and cheaper?

And pulling the whole "I'm older than you so I know better than you" is a really weak argument. You need to point to specifics, other than your personal history where it was easy for you to get laid in high school but now it isn't. You're extrapolating your own experiences into some sort of blanket model of human interaction. This is fallacious.

You need to use deductive reasoning, not inductive, in cases like these. Because you do not have enough data points to use inductive, you only have your own.

You might be able to understand this, but I think you WILL find a way to rationalize it away:
My argument is not "I'm older than you so I know better than you." That was never stated or implied nor do I even think in those terms.

My argument is that I was THERE, experiencing it first-hand. I LIVED it. I lived in the culture. All my afc friends got action in that time. It was easy. It's wasn't easy just for me. It was easy because our culture was entirely different and had different expectations of women.

Just talk to others who were there and read history that has not been tampered with.

Take-home:
This is not about "authority" or "I'm older than you". It's about being there and living it.

 

[Burroughs]

It was easy because our culture was entirely different and had different expectations of women.

That's it!...I'm young but have travelled extensively. Its STUNNING when you see husbands treated like gods by their women, in MOST parts of the world, Turkey, India, China, Japan, even South African white women are more docile to their male counterparts.

It must have been a fine time back in the day Atom Smasher when women acted in concert with us...I've seen it with my own eyes in other countries.

 

[5string]

There is only one James Bond: Sean Connery.

Wrong Jitter

The only James Bond is Jophil

 

[Zarky]

Its STUNNING when you see husbands treated like gods by their women, in MOST parts of the world, Turkey, India, China, Japan, even South African white women are more docile to their male counterparts.

Well, the thing is that in those cultures men treat their women like "princesses" as well. And I'm just not into that.

And I certainly don't want to be a husband.

I've dated many, many women who come from Russia, South America, Eastern Europe, Southeast Asia, and other traditional cultures. I can't stand 'em. They expect men to be protective and coddle them and treat them like big children. I have no interest in that.

AND, with a couple of exceptions, I never managed to bang any of 'em, which is even worse. I didn't fit whatever mold they were looking for--I didn't want to pay every time, I didn't want to hold car doors open, I didn't want to make their decisions for them, I didn't want to meet the family, I didn't want to fall into the horrible stereotyped gender roles of yesteryear.

So, hey, maybe that's because I "grew up" in a "feminized" culture. But guess what, that's our culture now and for the foreseeable future, so you either deal with it or whine about it like a baby. I fit right in, and enjoy it, and do fairly well. I would never have fit into some sort of standard man-role in a pre-feminist society. I'm Rhett Butler in Gone with the Wind. And I imagine most of the guys getting laid these days are in the same boat.

Think of Hank Moody in Californication or the guys in Entourage. How would they have done in a pre-feminist society? They would have probably wound up in jail, or would have been ostracized in some way for sure.

If you're stuck in the past, well, you're not going to change the culture so you can either change yourself or whine to random people on the internet. I just don't understand the type of person to whine about things like this. I don't get that mentality. It seems very, very, very weak to me. And that weakness, more than feminism, is IMHO why those dudes aren't getting laid.

And look up the game "Ain't it Awful" in "Games People Play" by Eric Berne. It's the social game that all the guys who sit around complaining about "the good old days" participate in. I refuse.

 

[Boilermaker]

^^^^

I will print this post, frame it, put it on my wall, read it and salute it every morning I wake up.

This forum needs more Zarky's. We have plenty of depressed old men.

 

[Wilko]

I had an interesting experience about two months back. There was this trippy little girl, actually she was 35 or so and she had a rockabilly kind of thing going on, very cute. To be more accurate she had a 60's housewife thing happening, she was into the whole package, from the way she dressed to her preferred gender roles. Predictably she was a huge fan of Mad Men and who can blame her. That was her ideal, Mad Men without the cheating and the lying, sounds kind of boring right? Haha.

So anyway, we're fairly attracted to each other and she starts laying out what she's prepared to offer a man, what she's going to bring to the bargain. In her own words she wants to stay home, clean, iron, cook, sew, make dresses, make herself pretty when [he] comes home, get ravished most nights, plus a little kink and light ****. In return she wants her man to bear most of the financial burden, be faithful to her and treat her every now and again.

At 33 I have never, EVER had a woman offer me anything remotely like that. I was "educated" from early on not to expect that sort of thing, consequently I've never yearned for the kind of thing she was offering. Put that conditioning aside, I've remade and re-educated myself and what I want now is what I want. It still threw me for a huge spin! Did I want what she was offering? I'd never even considered an arrangement like that before.

As it turns out I wasn't that attracted to the idea, I just don't need or want a woman to do those kinds of things for me, and the idea of having to carry two people financially doesn't thrill me either (already done my share of that). I didn't pursue it, but it also transpired that she really wasn't able to deliver on much of it. She's got some ongoing chronic fatigue/depression, so it was pointless but it was VERY strange and interesting to be offered what my Grandpa probably had.

 

[zekko]

I find this interesting. This is a website that teaches you that being the alpha male and the leader will attract women, but then everyone complains about how the women aren't cooperating (flaking and such).

 

[zekko]

So some women flake and behave poorly, moreso than 35 years ago.

Regarding the flaking, I think this might explain some of it:

You meet some girl in a loud club where you can't even hear her and you get her phone number. Then you avoid texting her or phoning her because you want to give the appearance of mystery and having a busy life. You have no interest in this girl other than banging her. Then when you finally arrange a meetup with her, you're surprised that she flakes. Why wouldn't she flake? What invested interest could she possibly have in you?

 

[Boilermaker]

Does everyone here really think that it is not possible to be successful yet still complain about the problems you have had to overcome and continually have to deal with?

Just because you complain about something, does not mean you are failing at it. I b!tch all of the time about flakes, but I have done very well with women in my life. You kids needs to lose this "black or white" mentality.

I don't see a black or white perspective here, to be honest. Complaining about something and being successful on that very thing are contradictory. Why are you complaining about it if you are successful with women? If you had ten times more dates for every woman that flaked on you, would you still come here and deliver tirades?

The point Zarky is stressing is that it wastes a whole lot of ENERGY and RESOURCES when a bunch of guys gets together and play this game. We are NOT productive this way. When I talk to an average guy these days; I strike by my favorite line before he starts whining. WHAT IS YOUR EXCUSE? A lot of folks here at MM has Feminism. My friend Ozzy claims he can't get laid because he's losing hair. Another one thinks it's where he lives, and things will be better when he moves to California. One "fatalistic" guy thinks we are at the hands of fate and can't change anything anyway.

I am sick and tired of interacting with bitter men, I have nothing to learn from them.

We must strive for little increments, little changes, experiments. We must have ideas, tests, experiments, theories to go forward.

What would you tell me if I came to you and blamed my Yamaha for my lack of improvement in piano playing? Chess became a dull game because of the enormous success of computers. The fact that databases expanded and chess engines got better explains why I can't beat 10-year old boys in competitions anymore. How does it seem ? ... I could go on all day. I am good at rationalizing, like any other human being.

You can't be too successful and not love what you are doing. Women are willing to kill to be with you; but you are deeply affected by a few of them flaking on you ..
I am perplexed.

 

[jophil28]

The point Zarky is stressing is that it wastes a whole lot of ENERGY and RESOURCES when a bunch of guys gets together and play this game.

I am sick and tired of interacting with bitter men, I have nothing to learn from them.

There is absolutely no difference in principle between men here who comment or complain about women's behavior, and Zarky and you complaining about their complaining ....Complaining is complaining .
IF the topic of a thread annoys you , ignore the whole thread.

Alternatively, if you can possible put aside your junior arrogance for a bit , you might even learm something from those who have walked the walk before you were born.

 

[disgustipated]

Why are we speaking about men discussing these issues in whining terms? This is supposed to be a place where brothers can come together and discuss these things, can we leave that **** to women who feel the need to pick at men?

 

[Boilermaker]

I have a girl, I have money, but I still have every right to b1tch about the system because I shouldn't have to work that hard if people were held accountable and that we men educated ourselves and stopped tolerating bull$hit.

So, everyone here, let's stop fooling ourselves and assuming that just because someone complains about something it means they are not successful in said endeavor. That is just not true.

Great! All this puts you in a very special position among all men. Actually I never thought you were unsuccessful. But if you are one of the precious few; please share your wisdom, not your bitterness.

You have every right to be grumpy, right, but it puts a shadow on your self-proclaimed successes. Success is always unifying; you don't get to hear successful people whine about the difficulties they endured.

 

[Boilermaker]

There is absolutely no difference in principle between men here who comment or complain about women's behavior, and Zarky and you complaining about their complaining ....Complaining is complaining .
IF the topic of a thread annoys you , ignore the whole thread.

Alternatively, if you can possible put aside your junior arrogance for a bit , you might even learm something from those who have walked the walk before you were born.

Complaining is complaining. Hmm... No. There's a world of difference between blaming life (and others, and things, and women, and luck, and society) for one's miseries, and blaming people who pollute the forum with their feeble stories about "feminism" (We have a horde of sociologists and historians, not to mention ... shining psychiatrists in our club)

Seriously who's the audience of this thread? Who are we talking to? All this is a bitter cry to silent cosmos.

I have nothing but respect to those who "walked the walk before I was born", my problem is with those who had been bitter all their life ..

My words won't "get to" guys who have solved their problems by the time they have become a true "Mature Man". They have taken life for what it is, they have adapted. Adaptation is intelligence, as Richard Dawkins puts it. Yes, I can understand the release these threads give to those with clenched jaws and bitter memories; it's just that my junior ego couldn't hold itself watching this sad play unfold for the hundredth time. I apologize, gentlemen, carry on. Didn't mean to ruin the party.

 

[Atom Smasher]

Some of you guys TRULY, in the deepest sense, disappoint me.

You are quick to throw LABELS around, just like girls do. Once you label, you go your merry way into your own analogue to women's own land of fairy tales and unicorns. You've got your own land of make-believe, and the feminist machine is the entity that has churned you out to buy into the philosophy they engineered into you.

I'm now going to state that which should be obvious. In fact it's so obvious, I'm amazed that I even have to type this:

The older guys here are not complaining. They are educating you and showing you that you don't have to accept the status quo, that You, yes, YOU, can do something about the contrived state of our society.

We're showing you that YOU YOURSELF are the product of the feminist machine. Some of you are completely convinced that society was always the way it is now, and that women always behaved the way you have seen them behaving all your life.

We are showing you that this is patently untrue, that it was different when we were younger, and therefore it is POSSIBLE for you to be the vanguard of a new movement to start to turn things around.

We're trying to show what we lived through in the past, in order that you might gain hope for a better future for you and your kids and grandkinds. We mustn't just blindly accept the bizarre circus that we find ourselves in. Some of the more mature men here are shouting out to the crowd that there is another world out there, another possibility that you can engineer for yourself, for your future offspring, and for the world at large.

So many of you are convinced, beyond all reason, that women today are behaving as they always have throughout history. Of course they have always had their hard-to-deal-with proclivities, which we are all aware of. But what you don't see is that those proclivities have been allowed to grow into monstrous deformities, and we find ourselves adjusting and molding ourselves to accommodate them (thereby diminishing in our own character), rather than pointing out the bizarreness and unnaturalness of these contrivances and working to restore some semblance of proper balance.

There is opportunity here. That's why we talk about it and demonstrate to you that the climate we find ourselves in today is the result of a cultural meltdown, rather than something that is universal and immutable. Complaining for its own sake does nothing. But you younger guys need to be INFORMED by the guys who lived before you that you have possibilities within your grasp, if only you'll reach out and seize them.

Don't buy into the machine that engineered your world-view. Transcend it. All it takes is opening your mind, dropping the pride act that makes you feel so important and knowledgable, and daring to look at a different possibility.

Much can be learned from history. Learn from it now before it gets erased and replaced by falsehoods that support and fuel YOUR PROGENITOR, the Feminist Machine.

 

[Jitterbug]

This is like the Second Red Pill for some people.

The automatic knee-jerk reaction to label anything negative people bring up as "whining" or "bitter" reeks of feminist shaming tactics that have permeated Western societies.

Success is always unifying; you don't get to hear successful people whine about the difficulties they endured.

Nobody's whining here. And ALL successful people TALK about the difficulties they endured. Have you ever read any biographies of such people?

I'm grateful that the older, experienced DJs are here talking to us about what it was like and sharing their experiences. Saves me a lot of troubles figuring it out on my own, to say the least.

 

[jophil28]

Of course they (women) have always had their hard-to-deal-with proclivities, which we are all aware of. But what you don't see is that those proclivities have been allowed to grow into monstrous deformities, and we find ourselves adjusting and molding ourselves to accommodate them (thereby diminishing in our own character), rather than pointing out the bizarreness and unnaturalness of these contrivances and working to restore some semblance of proper balance.

That is the central issue for men under 35.
The "quirkiness" of women's behavior in previous generations has now become deformities, and normalized behavior, at that.
Younger men need to believe that women are capable (at least some ) of acting in ways that respect and honor men. You do not have to accept the results of feminist encouragements to women. You do not have to accept that women are "just like that" because they are not. You do not have to live a life of anxiety and fear that you may inadverteently walk on some womsn's sensitivities. You do not have to live a life in the belief that it is your mission to please women and comply with their demands.

The older men here are making the point that one generation ago women and men acted quite differently toward each other, and that a return to that style of interaction is within your grasp provided you are willing to break out of your feminized indoctrination.

Insulting 'the elders' with charges of "bitter,complaining " is more an indication of your comprehension difficulties in grasping what is being said to you.
The leveling of "bitter old men" charges is also a precise example of what AT writes about in his claim that your feminized brainwashing has set you up with a particular mindset of blaming and shaming.

Finally, it is highly unlikely that any of the vets here will be unduly disturbed or give any credence to a know-it-all 25 year old who has not earned his stripes.