how can people join cults and believe them?

[backbreaker]

i hate to keep reffering back to richard dawkins, but he has half a chapter reffering to nothign but Enstien. Enstien was what is called an Pantheist.


Pantheists don't believe in a supernatural God at all, but use the word God as a nonsupernatural synonym for Nature, or for the Universe, or for the
lawfulness that governs its workings.



Enstien has been quoted as saying:
I don't try to imagine a personal God; it suffices to
stand in awe at the structure of the world, insofar as it
allows our inadequate senses to appreciate it

and


It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious
convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I
do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied
this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me
which can be called religious then it is the unbounded
admiration for the structure of the world so far as our
science can reveal it.

and

I am a deeply religious nonbeliever. This is a somewhat
new kind of religion.





the jewish faith basically disowned him...



'It is sad to see a man, who comes from the race of the Old Testament and its teaching, deny the great tradition of that race.


one rabbi was quoted as saying


a lawyer,a roman catholic wrote hiim after he claimed he did not believe in a personal god saying


We deeply regret that you made your statement . . . in
which you ridicule the idea of a personal God. In the past
ten years nothing has been so calculated to make people
think that Hitler had some reason to expel the Jews from
Germany as your statement. Conceding your right to free
speech, I still say that your statement constitutes you as
one of the greatest sources of discord in America.


and



We respect your learning, Dr Einstein; but there is one
thing you do not seem to have learned: that God is a spirit
and cannot be found through the telescope or microscope,
no more than human thought or emotion can be found by
analyzing the brain. As everyone knows, religion is based
on Faith, not knowledge. Every thinking person, perhaps,
is assailed at times with religious doubt. My own faith has
wavered many a time. But I never told anyone of my
spiritual aberrations for two reasons: (1) I feared that I
might, by mere suggestion, disturb and damage the life
and hopes of some fellow being; (2) because I agree with
the writer who said, 'There is a mean streak in anyone
who will destroy another's faith.' . . . I hope, Dr Einstein,
that you were misquoted and that you will yet say something
more pleasing to the vast number of the American
people who delight to do you honor.









and he got this one from the university of oaklahoma



Professor Einstein, I believe that every Christian in
America will answer you, 'We will not give up our belief
in our God and his son Jesus Christ, but we invite you, if
you do not believe in the God of the people of this nation,
to go back where you came from.' I have done everything
in my power to be a blessing to Israel, and then you come
along and with one statement from your blasphemous
tongue, do more to hurt the cause of your people than all
the efforts of the Christians who love Israel can do to
stamp out anti-Semitism in our land. Professor Einstein,
every Christian in America will immediately reply to you,
'Take your crazy, fallacious theory of evolution and go
back to Germany where you came from, or stop trying to
break down the faith of a people who gave you a welcome
when you were forced to flee your native land.'


God does not play dice' which is one of his more famous quotes (that thiests try to pin on him as a believer in a higher power) should be translated as 'Randomness does not lie at the heart of all things.


I hope that clears up any misconception about him being a theist... i just get erked when people try to say something he was. I'd be peeved if I died and someone said I was a religion I wasn't

 

[backbreaker]

Yes. It's the same way I feel about science.

I took a course about the theory of relativity, and the class was talking about the expanding universe. I asked the professor what was just outside the bounds of the universe, what was it expanding into. He told me that the question made no sense, because it was impossible for us to experience anything outside of our universe. Then I asked him to guess and he got mad. To even think about what might be there is an insult to science, because science cannot even begin to ponder the answer. The inside of black holes is similar; it does not matter what is inside of them, because we can never know. Nothing can escape for us to sense.

Are you familiar with string theory? Apparently there are a large number of dimensions, different theories disagree about the exact number, but the three or four dimensions we experience are a minority. Most dimensions are "curled-up;" math can prove their existence, but humans can never sense anything that is inside of them.

Science is rooted in human perception, but to me, that perception seems not so keen. I think we are all ostriches with our heads in the sand. When science can tell me what is outside the universe, inside black holes, and even form a guess as to what might be inside the majority of dimensions, then I might respect it a little more.

like I said before... I bet science would be very important to you if we saw in the front of the new york times that "Proof Jesus was the son of God"... oh, science would be extremely important than. You would not say "It does not matter". It only matters when you want it to matter.

 

[Michele l'Arcangelo]

get on with the thread topic.

 

[azanon]

get on with the thread topic.

Don't let me speak for you guys, but I'm certainly talking about cults (when I name any religion, i consider it a cult), and have been postulating why people believe them, including offering up some personal theories.

Since you made a request though, let me make one: If you don't have anything to add, would you kindly not post?

 

[EricInTheHouse]

I'm part of a cult of rednecks that watch Nascar and drink beer, farting into the cushions...

 

[azanon]

I'm part of a cult of rednecks that watch Nascar and drink beer, farting into the cushions...

:crackup:

 

[Bible_Belt]

Let me ask you a theoretical question, Bible Belt, and give me a completely honest answer. Do you think its possible for me to go to school and become "an ordained minister"? If so, knowing what you do about me, do you think I would personally deserve to be referred to by such a designation? I guess since we're talking opinions here, you could say yes to that question, but you'd really have me scratching my head!

I think ordained just means appointed, so a congregation would have to appoint you. Surely they would ask if you believe in God before they appoint you minister, given that it is part of the job. I don't know what you mean by "deserve." A non-believer does not deserve to lead a belief-based organization. That is true for any group that advocates a cause. Hillary Clinton does not deserve to be the head of the NRA, but saying that about her is not a moral judgment, merely that she does not share the views of that group.

Peoples' beliefs can certainly change drastically with time. "Jane Roe" from Roe V Wade is named Norma McCorvey. After being the poster child for the pro-choice movement, she changed her views and is now a pro-life activist.

Regarding the topic of this thread, casting the term "cult" is simply a disagreement with an organization's values. I think mensa and the masons are cults, but that is because I disagree with the values for which they stand.

 

[azanon]

I guess what I was trying to say is captured by the phrase we've all heard before: "A wolf in sheep's clothing". To me, going only by that, I'd say the wolf is not a sheep necessarily because it looks like and makes sounds similar to a sheep. A wolf in sheep's clothing is 100% wolf.

Scientists simply do not learn anything about their world relying only on faith and hope. Doing so would be so antagonistic to what it means to be a scientist, that I think it would inherently demonstrate that said person "does not share the (critical and essential) views of that group". One of the very first things we went back over when I started my Masters in Biology was dive very deep into the Scientific Method; our method. If anyone in a room had a problem with that method, they knew exactly where the door was.

I know for certain there are many that share my opinion that there is no such thing as a "Christian Scientist".

 

[Latinoman]

The DC advocate lawyers are no exception; I am only guessing, but I'd bet many of them have 160-180 IQs, and everyone I met I think would be happy to admit that they believe in the Bible literally. There are some intelligent Christians out there.

You will be surprised how many idiots are in Law School. ANYONE can be a lawyer. You don't even have to be good at math or science.

 

[Michele l'Arcangelo]

Don't let me speak for you guys, but I'm certainly talking about cults (when I name any religion, i consider it a cult), and have been postulating why people believe them, including offering up some personal theories.

Since you made a request though, let me make one: If you don't have anything to add, would you kindly not post?

the OP is talking about specific *cults*. the majority of people don't consider the mainstream *religions* as cults.

don't turn a simple thread into a bash.

i don't recall what you been replying with, but at least you are "postulating why people believe them".

now on the other hand, most everyone else here is just trying to point out: "hey guys! i'm athiest! man those people are such idiots... i can't believe they believe in christianity".

what's more useful, me telling people to keep the thread on topic or everyone else thinking their opinion matters when it's not relevant to the topic?

at least my post attempts to move the thread forward and not have a bunch of spam that moves the topic nowhere.

 

[azanon]

the OP is talking about specific *cults*. the majority of people don't consider the mainstream *religions* as cults.

Since when have DJers been consistent with "the mainstream" people?

don't turn a simple thread into a bash.

As if the thread topic isn't a time bomb waiting to happen, and as if I'm the only one participating in a similar fashion. I'm not debating myself here.

i don't recall what you been replying with, but at least you are "postulating why people believe them".

now on the other hand, most everyone else here is just trying to point out: "hey guys! i'm athiest! man those people are such idiots... i can't believe they believe in christianity".

"Idiot" carries negative connotation, and when referring to someone else as an idiot, it is clearly a personal attack. I haven't called or implied Christians are idiots. I certainly suggested that they might be low on wisdom, or that they draw (some) conclusions about their world using illogical or irrational means (such as with faith or hope).

what's more useful, me telling people to keep the thread on topic or everyone else thinking their opinion matters when it's not relevant to the topic?

C. You realizing that everyone has been enough on topic to not warrant any "assistance" from captain-save-a-thread.

at least my post attempts to move the thread forward and not have a bunch of spam that moves the topic nowhere.

Again, if you have nothing to add, please don't post. So far, you've added nothing.

I find it ironic that it's actually you that causing the thread to steer.

 

[TheHumanist]

So you say Christians low on wisdom and draw illogical and irrational conclusions. Still sounds pretty negative and insulting to a Christian.

Sure faith and hope is not rational, but the way you are typing it (even on the internet without the tone of voice still carry some kind of voice, and it sounds condesending). The way you word it still sound like you calling them "idiots" for lack of a better word.


BTW, wisdom connotatively and denotatively means understanding, experience, and insight. A person who is able to know how to act in situations involving shades of gray. Wise Christians can be plenty wise, it is the evangelical one who is not open to new ideas while being imposing and hostiles to others that is the problematic ones.

 

[backbreaker]

So you say Christians low on wisdom and draw illogical and irrational conclusions. Still sounds pretty negative and insulting to a Christian.

Sure faith and hope is not rational, but the way you are typing it (even on the internet without the tone of voice still carry some kind of voice, and it sounds condesending). The way you word it still sound like you calling them "idiots" for lack of a better word.


BTW, wisdom connotatively and denotatively means understanding, experience, and insight. A person who is able to know how to act in situations involving shades of gray. Wise Christians can be plenty wise, it is the evangelical one who is not open to new ideas while being imposing and hostiles to others that is the problematic ones.

I think you missed the point.


I am sure anazon feels the same way as I do about this. and I am sure most athiests/agnostics do as well.


I have 100% NO problem with someone who when he or she comes of age, takes a long hard look, learns about different religons.. shoot.. I won't even go THAT far.. learns about THEIR religion, the ins and the outs, exactly how everything went down, and then takes that information and decides if they believe it.

NO problem whatsoever. None.

What I have a problem with is not the fact that "all people who are religous are stupid" because they believe in "faith" and not "logic"... it's that the illogical part is believing something THAT YOU HAVEN'T EVEN BOTHERED TO LEARN!

If a christan 1) knows his religion and 2) doesn't try to give me the 32oz bat every time we meet, slugging me with "god will save you" and crap like that every other sentence, we will have no problem.

My mom is a devout christan.. reads the bible from cover to cover once a year. She reads anything she can find on christanity. And she believes it. That's fine! Good for her.

I read that same information, and I just DONT' believe it. difference of opinion, simple as that.

 

[Paradox]

I read that same information, and I just DONT' believe it. difference of opinion, simple as that.

And herein lies the whole point and answer to the question.

Perspective, education, social upbringing, and free will all play a part is believing in one thing or another.

 

[backbreaker]

if that was it, i'd be fine paradox... most people believe because:

1) their families do
2) everyone else does
3) how else can you explain the stars, the skies, and everything somewhat complex.. i mean there just MUST be a god:crazy:

 

[j-flex]

the OP is talking about specific *cults*. the majority of people don't consider the mainstream *religions* as cults.

don't turn a simple thread into a bash.

i don't recall what you been replying with, but at least you are "postulating why people believe them".

now on the other hand, most everyone else here is just trying to point out: "hey guys! i'm athiest! man those people are such idiots... i can't believe they believe in christianity".

what's more useful, me telling people to keep the thread on topic or everyone else thinking their opinion matters when it's not relevant to the topic?

at least my post attempts to move the thread forward and not have a bunch of spam that moves the topic nowhere.

at least somebody that understands!!!!!!!!!!!

i can undestand why people believe in mainstream religions, but i cant understand why people believe in sects/cults.

this thread should be locked and started again with THIS in mind.

 

[azanon]

at least somebody that understands!!!!!!!!!!!

i can undestand why people believe in mainstream religions, but i cant understand why people believe in sects/cults.

this thread should be locked and started again with THIS in mind.

I think you're just too ahead of many of us. A great many of us, including myself, are at step one trying to figure out why intelligent people go for mainstream religions, much less cults.

 

[azanon]

If a christan 1) knows his religion and 2) doesn't try to give me the 32oz bat every time we meet, slugging me with "god will save you" and crap like that every other sentence, we will have no problem.

My mom is a devout christan.. reads the bible from cover to cover once a year. She reads anything she can find on christanity. And she believes it. That's fine! Good for her.

I read that same information, and I just DONT' believe it. difference of opinion, simple as that.

In practice in the real world, I'm essentially as diplomatic as backbreaker described here. But since this is the internet, ... truth is there's a certain level of intellectual respect that I could never give these people. I can like a Christian and I have many Christian friends. Heck, I like Bible Belt. But they're just going to be a rung lower on my virtual, intellectual pedestal than a freethinker. To me, a freethinker is someone who's completely broken free of the religious matrix. I have no choice but to respect these people the most.

 

[Michele l'Arcangelo]

I think you're just too ahead of many of us. A great many of us, including myself, are at step one trying to figure out why intelligent people go for mainstream religions, much less cults.

the three mainstream religions (islam, judiasm, christianity) go far back and intertwine to some degree.

cults are modern "religions" that are usually a perverted version of a mainstream religion (usually christianity) to confuse members with some references to the bible, etc.

from what i've seen and the type of things i hear from god-loving people, the reason why people believe religions aren't because they see or hear any facts. they're mainly fearful of not going to heaven. but of course, that doesn't represent 100% of the people.

if you heard of Pascal's Wager, you'd understand what i mean. wiki it.

 

[TheHumanist]

In practice in the real world, I'm essentially as diplomatic as backbreaker described here. But since this is the internet, ... truth is there's a certain level of intellectual respect that I could never give these people. I can like a Christian and I have many Christian friends. Heck, I like Bible Belt. But they're just going to be a rung lower on my virtual, intellectual pedestal than a freethinker. To me, a freethinker is someone who's completely broken free of the religious matrix. I have no choice but to respect these people the most.

That what the disagreement is about from the beginning. Everyone (or so I believe) disagree with you not because of there can be intellegent religous people or wise or rational for when we point that you, you say we are missing the point, we see the point. At least to me, on the rung of the intellectual pedestal, I'm not going to knock down a notch for a belief. I'm not going to say they in the "religous matrix" which means they are in a prison they cannot see and we can see more.

A person should be knocked down a notch on the intellectual pedestal when they become unreasonable, think of the stereotype of the evangelical Christian who refuse to acknowledge anyone but another evangelical. If Pope John Paul II was still alive, I will not see him as an intellectual underling, I would if I found him to act like the streotypical Evengelical, but he didn't.

A freethinker is a person to be respected most, but a freethinker does not have to be an atheist or an agnostic.