GUIDE TO CUTTING UP

[NIMROD]

hey heres my question:

In order to count cals, is it correct to assume carbs are 4 cals, protein 4 cals and fat 9 cals per gram.


Any assistince is greatly appreciated

 

[prosemont]

Originally posted by NIMROD
hey heres my question:

In order to count cals, is it correct to assume carbs are 4 cals, protein 4 cals and fat 9 cals per gram.


Any assistince is greatly appreciated

Yes, Nimrod.

 

[NIMROD]

Thanks

 

[HalfAddict]

whats a reccomendation for me

Im 6'5 weigh 265 lbs.

But i was in basic training for US army infantry for the last 14 weeks

I still wanna lose 40 lbs. at least

I once weighed 325 losing that was easier but now that im smaller it seems to be getting harder for me any suggestions?

 

[OzyBoy]

I recommend going to a gym several times a week if you want to cut up a bit, its what i'm doing and its working pretty well.

 

[Warboss Alex]

For the purposes of cutting up to retain muscle mass.. it's bull****.

long cardio is for people who don't have the lungs or the balls to go hardcore. A short hyper-intense workout will have way more benefit on the body that some bullshyt, negative intensity, long cardio workout.

If you want to look like a marathon runner, then knock yourself out on the cardio.. if you don't participate in an endurance sport, long term cardio is pointless.. DIET not CARDIO is the key.

Your body will metabolize muscle mass just as well as it will fat. If anything it's easier for your body to metabolize muscle mass (4 calories per gram of muscle) than it is for it to metabolize fat. (9 calories per gram) -

if long cardio is so good, how come none of those endurance cyclists while lean are not shredded with evident muscularity. Yet, it's the sprinters who look like they are chiseled out of marble ??

I beg to differ sir. While I agree on many points, allow me to voice my full opinion without too much slating; I'm new here but have plenty of weight-lifting experience (5yrs+ though I'm totally natural).

First, the long cardio issue. In my opinion cardio is much more a decisive cutting factor than you give it credit for. Let's consider our goals. We want to retain muscle mass, right? What built our muscle mass? Our training - which presumably is intense enough to produce such a demand on the body as to make it make new muscle (if given sufficient protein, etc). Intense training and high protein built our muscle, intense training and high protein is going to be what'll keep our muscle. To keep our training intense we must be able to recover sufficiently. Your cardiovascular fitness must be exceptionally good to be able to do hyper-intense cardio AND recover sufficiently to keep on beating (or at least equalling) your gym lifts. Also, in my experience sprinting will sacrifice valuable leg size. Legs are a pain to train, d'you really want to lose all that hard work? I for one, don't. Also, sprint hard on Monday, then try a 350lbs+ back squat on Tuesday for 20 reps - if you can do this my friend, then you're a better man than me. (Incidentally, if you can, please go ahead and do so, this is just my opinion.)

If you see Ronnie Coleman sprinting to get into contest-ready shape, then please take pictures and show me. Especially on a restricted diet, high-intensity cardio is out for the bigger of us (I'm talking about the heavier bodyweight categories, like 200lbs and heavier).

As well as the strain it'll put on your knees if you're a heavy chappie - cyclists and marathon runners AREN'T heavy chappies, you'll notice, because it doesn't pay for them to be heavy in their line of work. It's too exhausting. As far as I can tell, most of us are bodybuilders on this forum - not athletes, because IMO it's terribly difficult to be both. (There are exceptions of course, but they're few and far between) Endurance cyclists are just that, they're endurance athletes. NOT bodybuilders.

Sprinters: eat like horses, you'll find. They train balls out which makes their body keep the muscle.

As for mobilising muscle, the body will only do so if it's desperate; protein is NOT a preferred fuel source in any circumstances, though a small amount may be burned in whatever activity - whether sprinting, running, walking, weightlifting. How long you can do your cardio before going catabolic is dependent on a lot of things, genetics among them. Endomorphs can last longer in my experience without sacrificing any muscle, but that's a bit of a generalisation. Ingesting a protein-only meal pre-cardio will give your body that small bit of protein fuel it requires for the cardio, preserving your precious muscle. Examples: half a can of tuna, protein shake, BCAAs and/or glutamine - the latter being my favourite because I can't face tuna first thing in the morning (prime time for doing cardio).

I don't advocate running myself though - brisk walking or an incline treadmill is what's going to burn fat efficiently if you're a big bodybuilder and want to preserve muscle mass. If you're sub-200lbs and just want to get ripped and don't care about losing muscle then cardio as you see fit. HIIT will get you ripped much faster than longer cardio sessions but it'd knock you out too.

I do agree that low-calorie and low-carb diets are ****e though. The diet that made your muscles will keep them, you just make it much stricter in terms of treats and the 'clean-ness' of what you eat, avoid carbs after hours (again we agree here), concentrate carbs pre-workout, PWO and PPWO to keep your training intense enough to overload the muscles into staying put.

"Cutting, like bulking, is simple mathematics.. calories below maintenance = fat loss." - not always, that equals weight loss, not necessarily just fat loss. You can be in a calorie surplus and still burn fat.

"Fat : as little as possible, take one tablespoon of flaxseed oil with protein and no carbs before bed." - again, I disagree. Science tells us that an increased intake of EFAs mobilises bodyfat much better than a reduced intake. Of course I don't know what you mean exactly by 'as little as possible', but I'd recommend at least one portion of oily fish per day on a cut, plus flaxoil/seeds/nuts as you said.

"Bulking is the easy part." - yes, putting on weight is easy, putting on lean muscle without fat is difficult. In fact, that's harder than losing bodyfat in my experience. Complete beginners will find both quite easy, but as you get more advanced then muscle will be a LOT more hard to come by.

I agree about the mirror and not the scale. Totally.

Carbs a protein-sparing macro. Making them low in your diet will mean that protein will be used in many cases.

High reps with a lower weight IS a cardio workout, but I'd never use it to burn fat. I'd lift heavy and do cardio afterwards.

This is all I've time to post now - and this is all my opinion, please don't slate me for it. I'll up for a debate, although before I go I'll say this: different things work for different people. You could be 280lbs of muscle monstrosity and have the lungs to do HIIT 7 days a week and train like you want to be 350lbs and walk around as jacked as anything. If so, good for you! Bodybuilding is ALL about finding what works for your body and fits in with your goals.

Oh, and bodyfat scales suck. Who cares if you're 11% or 17%? Are YOU happy with the way you look?

 

[MrLuvr]

Originally posted by Warboss Alex

"Cutting, like bulking, is simple mathematics.. calories below maintenance = fat loss." - not always, that equals weight loss, not necessarily just fat loss. You can be in a calorie surplus and still burn fat.

Ok. How does one burn fat when your body is in a calories surplus?

 

[Warboss Alex]

Originally posted by MrLuvr
Ok. How does one burn fat when your body is in a calories surplus?

Nutrient partitioning, cutting carbs at night, release of FFAs and their subsequent burning at the right time - for most of us, in the a.m. - among other things.

This I've concluded, though I can't say I 100% understand WHY - science says it doesn't work, but practice shows time and time again, that it does.

It's perfectly possible to be in a calorie surplus and burn fat, also to be a calorie deficit and GAIN fat - we're talking about bodyfat here remember, not bodyweight.

 

[MrLuvr]

Originally posted by Warboss Alex
Nutrient partitioning, cutting carbs at night, release of FFAs and their subsequent burning at the right time - for most of us, in the a.m. - among other things.

I am not sure what nutrient partioning or FFAs are. I am not up on the body building terminology.

My problem is that I seem to be in a bit of a rut right now. I am at 175 lbs (probably around 19% fat. Those weighing machines that also measure body fat seem to vary widely. I do have a layer of fat on my body that I want to get rid of and I also want to gain about 15 lbs of muscle. I am working out 3 times a week.

If I eat more carbs, i start seeing fat buildups. If I cut down on carbs, my weight gains stop. I eat about 200 grams of protein a day. Not sure what to do. Should I bump up the protein intake some more to around 250 grams a day? I have been stuck at this for the last 3 to 4 weeks. Don't seem to be able to gain more muscle, but when i up the calories, I don't seem to have a problem with adding the fat.

 

[Warboss Alex]

Nutrient patritioning = eating intelligently in the right order to achieve optimal efficiency of food usage, in our case eating so that the maximum number of aminos from ingested protein make it to the bloodstream and can be subsequently used for muscle building.

FFAs = Free Fatty Acids, released into the bloodstream from adipose cells, which are used for e.g. exercise fuel (that's the actual fat we burn).

You appear particularly carb-sensitive, so I would concentrate carbs around breakfast-time, pre-workout and post-workout (post post workout depending on post-workout nutrition) - although your glaring error my friend, is the major mistake made by 90% of bodybuilders these days, which is undereating, and you're undereating pretty badly.

Your protein intake is barely at maintenance level; I doubt actually all that protein is being used anyway (lost to digestion etc) so that's simply why your gains have stopped (your training might have some effect too, but I'm pretty sure it's your diet).

250g? I'd go for 400g minimum. Your body is quite happy to stay at homeostasis, and your eating is giving it every reason to do so, and lay down some adipose too. So try 400g protein, eat the protein on your plate FIRST, then the veggies, carbs etc - trust me after eating a massive steak you won't have much room left for rice or potatoes, you'll eat only as much as your body really needs.

This way you should just ingest as many carbs as you need, without much of a surplus for a bodyfat bump, and going for twice your bodyweight in protein grams is definitely giving your body a signal that it should break out the muscle-building.

Try this my friend, 400g protein, continue to lift heavy, concentrate carbs around your workout (even if it means eating carbs at night), and let me know how you get on in a month's time. I've a feeling you'll be out of that rut ..

 

[MrLuvr]

Originally posted by Warboss Alex

You appear particularly carb-sensitive, so I would concentrate carbs around breakfast-time, pre-workout and post-workout (post post workout depending on post-workout nutrition) - although your glaring error my friend, is the major mistake made by 90% of bodybuilders these days, which is undereating, and you're undereating pretty badly.

Your protein intake is barely at maintenance level; I doubt actually all that protein is being used anyway (lost to digestion etc) so that's simply why your gains have stopped (your training might have some effect too, but I'm pretty sure it's your diet).

250g? I'd go for 400g minimum. Your body is quite happy to stay at homeostasis, and your eating is giving it every reason to do so, and lay down some adipose too. So try 400g protein, eat the protein on your plate FIRST, then the veggies, carbs etc - trust me after eating a massive steak you won't have much room left for rice or potatoes, you'll eat only as much as your body really needs.

This way you should just ingest as many carbs as you need, without much of a surplus for a bodyfat bump, and going for twice your bodyweight in protein grams is definitely giving your body a signal that it should break out the muscle-building.

Try this my friend, 400g protein, continue to lift heavy, concentrate carbs around your workout (even if it means eating carbs at night), and let me know how you get on in a month's time. I've a feeling you'll be out of that rut ..

Thanks for your feedback. I don't think I want to go all the way to 400 gms a day right at once, so I will try to build it up over a couple of weeks.

Regarding the carbs. If I am concentrating the carbs in the morning, I don't think I can get enough calories throughout the rest of the day to overcome a calorie deficit. Or is it more that I should concentrate the simpler carbs like bread early in the day and eat more complex carbs later on in the day?

WHen someone says no carbs after a certain time, does that mean NO CARBS at all? What about things like nuts? And fruit? What about carbs from milk? I drink a shake in the evening with milk in it. And I was eating cottage cheese at night, though I have stopped doing that now. So, when someone says no carbs in the evening, should these carbs from nuts, dairy etc. also be avoided?

 

[Warboss Alex]

Originally posted by MrLuvr
Thanks for your feedback. I don't think I want to go all the way to 400 gms a day right at once, so I will try to build it up over a couple of weeks.

Regarding the carbs. If I am concentrating the carbs in the morning, I don't think I can get enough calories throughout the rest of the day to overcome a calorie deficit. Or is it more that I should concentrate the simpler carbs like bread early in the day and eat more complex carbs later on in the day?

WHen someone says no carbs after a certain time, does that mean NO CARBS at all? What about things like nuts? And fruit? What about carbs from milk? I drink a shake in the evening with milk in it. And I was eating cottage cheese at night, though I have stopped doing that now. So, when someone says no carbs in the evening, should these carbs from nuts, dairy etc. also be avoided?

Bread is a complex carb unless you eat white bread. In which case, yuck.

Eat carbs throughout the day to fuel yourself, don't worry about calories. Eat as many as you need, no more.

If I was to say no carbs after a certain time in the evening, I'd mean starchy stuff like rice, pasta, oats, and potatoes. Veg, dairy, etc is fine - depending on how sensitive you are to these foods. Personally I stick to lean protein (salmon, tuna, chicken breast) and veg after hours, but that's just me.

 

[OzyBoy]

I'm cutting again i have gained a bit of weight lately, and got a bit of a stomach, i'm really going to try and lose it.

 

[Warboss Alex]

I'm cutting again i have gained a bit of weight lately, and got a bit of a stomach, i'm really going to try and lose it.

And lose the muscle you gained too?

 

[Jay-X]

I always thought that you don't start burning fat before 20 minutes of training (in those 20 minutes, you use carbs), is this wrong?!

 

[Warboss Alex]

Originally posted by Jay-X
I always thought that you don't start burning fat before 20 minutes of training (in those 20 minutes, you use carbs), is this wrong?!

Too black and white, 20 minutes isn't the magic number BUT yes, your body will use carbs if it's got full glycogen stores - hence why cardio in the morning before eating (when your glycogen is low) burns fat nearly immediately.

 

[Jay-X]

then why diesel says no more than 20 minutes of cardio?

 

[Warboss Alex]

That's Diesel's opinion. I wouldn't know WHY he says no more than 20 minutes, he either means HIIT or would prefer to lose fat with dieting.

I'm just telling you mine, that dieting will probably lose too much muscle mass and I'd rather eat what I ate to make muscle (sensibly) and use cardio to strip off the fat.

Different approaches, different opinions, I know my approach works, I've no doubt that Diesel's does too .. see which works for you/which you prefer better.

 

[Jay-X]

Originally posted by Warboss Alex
That's Diesel's opinion. I wouldn't know WHY he says no more than 20 minutes, he either means HIIT or would prefer to lose fat with dieting.

I'm just telling you mine, that dieting will probably lose too much muscle mass and I'd rather eat what I ate to make muscle (sensibly) and use cardio to strip off the fat.

Different approaches, different opinions, I know my approach works, I've no doubt that Diesel's does too .. see which works for you/which you prefer better.

actually, i do agree with you

 

[skyjcky]

Yeah, I've seen a lot more results with the 10-20 minute hard sprints routine than the 'marathon' half hour+ jogs. It's mainly because I push myself much more during the hard sprints, I actually build up a heavy sweat and all of that. Good post btw.