Feel the butterflies and approach!

[oc16]

Doesn't matter if it's an attractive woman you've never talked to before or an attractive woman you might have had a brief interaction(s) with.

Feel the fear and just do it!

Remember, shyness is a feminine passive trait and a natural repellent to the majority of women.

Women can get away with being shy since it can be seen as a feminine quality and attractive, but not men.

If your gut is telling you to go talk to that woman, but you have butterflies, just do it! Better to try and possibly be awkward then to not try
at all.

In regard to this, I am only referring to attractive women whom your gut tells you that she might also be attracted to you (e.g. that woman across the bar or that female patron online at Starbucks, etc.....who gave you an IOI)

I am NOT talking about a female(s) who act like you don't exist.

Regardless of the outcome, you will be proud of yourself for doing so.

An experience I had today prompted me to post this.

 

[RangerMIke]

There really is no reason to fear an approach. No matter what happens... it's all good. She likes you and allows you to take her out: she shoots you down... now you know are can just move on.

The only reason anyone would be afraid of anything is over-thinking and being dependent on an outcome. If you really don't care what happens then there is no fear. All negative emotions are derived from expectation not met.

 

[corrector]

There really is no reason to fear an approach. No matter what happens... it's all good. She likes you and allows you to take her out: she shoots you down... now you know are can just move on.

The only reason anyone would be afraid of anything is over-thinking and being dependent on an outcome. If you really don't care what happens then there is no fear. All negative emotions are derived from expectation not met.

Or another nail in the coffin for an otherwise bad day.

 

[RangerMIke]

Or another nail in the coffin for an otherwise bad day.

I’ve been rejected a lot more than successful. Do this enough and getting shot down doesn’t really bother you. It’s like cold calling in sales… you have to get through a lot of nos and getting the phone slammed down on you before getting a yes. It’s all part of the process.

 

[Serenity]

I went from shy to IDGAF and there was definitely phases to it.

Back when I joined this forum I used to be extremely shy, anxiety held me back HARD for years. It was at this time I started to challenge it, I realized I had to do something about it which is what lead me this forum. My desire to change grew and grew, my frustration regarding my inaction grew with it until one day the desire to change overcame my anxiety. That's when I just started to send it and see what happens.

The first few times was hell, it was a mess, I was a mess. However, after the very first time I realized that I did come out the other end not being any worse off than I was, so what was there to lose? I wasn't going to see her again, I lost nothing, in fact I gained experience. I now had something tangible to reflect upon, a first hand experience in full detail. What did I mess up? What went well? I could evaluate and potentially improve, I could not do this with theory alone because there's just too many moving parts.

Anyways, that was the first phase which was really uncomfortable, anxiety every time, but I just plowed through the emotion and did it anyways. After a few months of this I figured out I could reframe my anxiety, that it basically is the same base emotion as excitement, but with different thought perspectives (if that makes sense). At this point I started chasing the feeling, even being weird on purpose just to amplify the tension. I cared way less about the outcome, being rejected was fine, I had already gotten my reward, the excitement.

I had a great time in phase 2, I kinda miss it, the excitement. I can't go back to that, I'm just too advanced to feel that level of adrenaline from approaching women.

Enter phase 3, Zen. While phase 2 sure was a lot of fun, it was ultimately a rollercoaster, for every high there's a low and the lows in between wasn't that fun. I sought control and mastery of myself and my own life, I wanted stability because frankly the strong emotions were a bit exhausting in the long run. I managed to calm myself, but without sealing in what I had opened up, I was never going back to fearing again. That's when I peaked, that's the phase I reside in still.

I'll go up to anyone who looks a bit intriguing to me in some way and I will say whatever is on my mind. I don't care where it goes, I don't care if I speak my mind and get shot down immediately. I can always just move on like it's nothing because I don't have any strong emotions attached to it. More often than not my complete lack of fear and saying exactly what I'm thinking is received positively though. It's rare and women absolutely love it.

Your post is about phase 1 and it's right on the money. Feel the fear, just do it anyways! Before you know it you're in phase 2 chasing that high and then in phase 3 feeling essentially invulnerable to it.

 

[AmsterdamAssassin]

Women love a 'devil-may-care' attitude in men, so if there's one thing you need to embrace it's the IDGAF attitude.

 

[AmsterdamAssassin]

This IDGAF attitude is BS, we are all anxious when it's time to approach. Anyone who says he can approach any woman in any situation without any anxiety and who says he doesn't care AT ALL when he gets rejected is a liar.

Not everybody is the same, Mike. Just because you cannot do what others can doesn't make them liars. Some of us are more 'sang froid' than others.

 

[SW15]

I’ve been rejected a lot more than successful.

That has happened to me as well. It's a disappointment.

It’s like cold calling in sales… you have to get through a lot of nos and getting the phone slammed down on you before getting a yes. It’s all part of the process.

Dating and sales or marketing have a lot in common but aren't perfect analogies.

I disagree with a process. Too much rejection is going to be psychologically damaging. This is true both for men trying to date and for sales reps.

In business, I tend to think of cold calling as a bad idea and a waste of time. The success rate on cold calling is very low regardless of the product. I remember reading content about how worthless cold calling was when I graduated college in 2005 and it wasn't a new idea in 2005. I think cold calling is very outdated and wasn't even that great in the past. I have an uncle who had cold calling experience in the 1980s and he didn't think it was a good use of time even then.

When a business uses cold calling with their sales reps, it's a sign of a poorly run organization and one that isn't doing well with marketing supporting sales.

Approaching strangers for dating/sex is not that efficient. In theory, bars are better than non-bar venues because presence in a bar would seem to indicate an openness for dating/sex. You're not getting that pre-screening on the street, in a grocery store, etc. even if doing non-bar approaching in neighborhoods with primarily unmarried people. However, bars are notorious for time wasters and women not actually in the market (attention whorres/women with bfs & husbands).

The only reason that approaching strangers is recommended is because alternative methods are even worse for most men (swipe apps, social media DMs).

It would be better if men didn't approach strangers and were able to get qualified leads sent to them through a viable social circle. In general, social circle interactions are better options in the shorter to medium to for finding a girlfriend. If you're looking for an extended relationship (1-5 years or more), your best bet for getting that with the least amount of grief and frustration is through a social circle. You won't have to do as many approaches in either non-bar venues or nightlife venues or take as many rejections. You won't have a miserable time on swipe apps.

we are all a bit dependent on the outcome, we try to fool ourselves believing we are not, but we are. When you approach that hot 9, don't tell me you're completely independent on the outcome

If we were not dependent on the outcome there would be no reason to approach and put ourselves in situations where our ego can be crushed, where we can be humiliated or where we can be in danger physically. The outcome is to get laid, not to have a meaningless conversation with a stranger.

Let's be real here

I agree that there is some level of outcome dependency.

Meaningless conversations are a common outcome of approaches. I have had many approaches result in conversations that went absolutely nowhere. Because the conversations went nowhere, a date offer was not extended. These could be called 'soft rejections'. I'd like to think that a lot of these conversations that went nowhere were with women not in market (women with existing boyfriends). I would never know for sure because the women did not mention a boyfriend during a brief conversation. I have wondered at times if I am a subpar conversationalist. There have been numerous approaches where the women seemed oblivious (perhaps due to boyfriend) or disinterested. These are the types of conversations that fade out within 30-90 seconds.

 

[GoodMan32]

Doesn't matter if it's an attractive woman you've never talked to before or an attractive woman you might have had a brief interaction(s) with.

Feel the fear and just do it!

Remember, shyness is a feminine passive trait and a natural repellent to the majority of women.

Women can get away with being shy since it can be seen as a feminine quality and attractive, but not men.

If your gut is telling you to go talk to that woman, but you have butterflies, just do it! Better to try and possibly be awkward then to not try
at all.

In regard to this, I am only referring to attractive women whom your gut tells you that she might also be attracted to you (e.g. that woman across the bar or that female patron online at Starbucks, etc.....who gave you an IOI)

I am NOT talking about a female(s) who act like you don't exist.

Regardless of the outcome, you will be proud of yourself for doing so.

An experience I had today prompted me to post this.

In my case, even if I have reason to believe the woman is into me, the mere thought of making a move on a woman gives me a panic attack. In fact, the stronger my suspicion she's into me, the worse the panic attack is.

I get so choked up I can barely speak (and so shaky I could fall over at any second). What woman is going to accept a man's advances if that's his demeanor (even if she's physically attracted to him)?

 

[AmsterdamAssassin]

Sorry I don't believe one can get rid of AA completely, it's rooted in our nervous system as a defense mechanism, it will always be there (more or less depending on the person). I have very very little AA but I still have some and it keeps me from approaching sometimes (depending on the context). Its just that some men won't admit it, again putting the tough alpha persona, which is BS.

I don't pedestal women. I have no anxiety about talking with women, regardless of 'hotness', because I don't elevate their desirability, nor do I feel competition from other men. When I talk with someone, I have no expectations. If I notice indicators of romantic interest and I feel attraction within myself to make that emotional connection, I will steer the conversation towards intimacy. If she doesn't respond positively and eagerly, I won't pursue (I'm not interested in 'lukewarm' connections), as I'm not desperate for sex / intimacy.

Apart from that, I almost committed suicide when I was sixteen because I put too much value in other people's opinion, and when I aborted my suicide attempt, I stopped giving an airborne copulation about anybody's opinion but my own. I modified that somewhat later in life to only value the opinions I actively sought out, but still IDGAF about what other people might think of me.

And while I don't meet many people like me, I know I'm not that special. So there are other people with a similar 'sang froid' who are not anxious when approaching strangers. The sole exception is when I'm facing violent people, but combat wariness is not the same as the approach anxiety you feel when you walk up to a woman.

And I don't believe in Alpha/Beta either.

 

[SW15]

I get so choked up I can barely speak (and so shaky I could fall over at any second). What woman is going to accept a man's advances if that's his demeanor (even if she's physically attracted to him)?

No female would, especially given the abundance that the females of the 2010s-2020s have.

 

[GoodMan32]

No female would, especially given the abundance that the females of the 2010s-2020s have.

Sad but true.

The only time an in-person ask out has worked was with the super strange girl in one of my college classes (the girl I ended up having to dump after a week).

All my other "free" successes have come from either tech methods, the woman making the move on me, or it just sort of happened

(The woman I had my last free sex with, which you know more details about than the vast majority of posters, is an example where it just sort of happened. Flirting eventually led to sex, with no need for either of us to officially ask the other one out. That's the thing; I can flirt without having a panic attack...it's just the ask out that gives me a panic attack)

 

[SW15]

it's just the ask out that gives me a panic attack)

The ask out can be daunting. It's the difference between a rejection and a potential new interaction. It's always good to have a default date offer and have rehearsed how to make the ask.

In the book "Day Bang", Roosh created his GALNUC conversational model. The GALNUC model and its final C, standing for 'cool' was how you'd ask out a female. You'd say "You seem cool, would you like to get together for a drink soon?". Then you'd work out the details and collect her number. I used GALNUC in the early years of non-bar approaching until I was a good enough non-bar approacher to be able to free form conversations.

In "Bang", Roosh also provided a standard opening line for bar approaches which I've used.

 

[GoodMan32]

The ask out can be daunting. It's the difference between a rejection and a potential new interaction. It's always good to have a default date offer and have rehearsed how to make the ask.

In the book "Day Bang", Roosh created his GALNUC conversational model. The GALNUC model and its final C, standing for 'cool' was how you'd ask out a female. You'd say "You seem cool, would you like to get together for a drink soon?". Then you'd work out the details and collect her number. I used GALNUC in the early years of non-bar approaching until I was a good enough non-bar approacher to be able to free form conversations.

In "Bang", Roosh also provided a standard opening line for bar approaches which I've used.

There's a woman we'll call Erica (not her real name). I know Erica through the same venue I met the last woman I had free sex with.

One time Erica said to me that she found some old dresses she hardly ever wears in the back of her closet (and she went on to say maybe she'll finally get a chance to wear one of the dresses if anyone ever asks her out again).

Mind you, Erica has complimented my looks before.

After Erica made the comment about the dresses, I was seriously thinking of asking her out. But then I could feel my heart pounding a mile a minute. I knew a panic attack was coming on. In order to avoid going into all-out panic attack mode, I had to abandon the plan to ask her out.

As for bar approaches, you're like me in the sense that you don't like to stay up late. I imagine that really puts a damper on the bar approaches.

 

[SW15]

As for bar approaches, you're like me in the sense that you don't like to stay up late. I imagine that really puts a damper on the bar approaches.

It's true that I do not like to stay up late. I have disliked it more as I have aged though I didn't even like it in my teens and the first half of my 20s.

Do you know how I dealt with that?

I spent the 2000s and early 2010s going to college parties and bars, which did require me to have some late nights. I realized then that I would need to do nightlife type approaches to meet women. For over 10 years, I primarily used a less than ideal format for me for meeting women because it was the format I knew best.

I had some awareness of non-bar approaching in college. I did approach in some of my classes and I did go to some on campus clubs to meet women. I under utilized those options compared to the night game type options. Immediately after college, I had some awareness that there were guys who went to yoga classes to meet women. I dabbled in some daygame in the first 6 years after college but never found a real way to implement it well.

In September 2011, Roosh released "Day Bang" and I read it soon after. "Day Bang" is what changed my approaching balance. In late 2011 and 2012, I began to transition from a primarily nightlife venue approacher to a primarily non-bar approacher. Prior to "Day Bang", I had never found a true daygame system that would enable me to do well with it.

Daygame is better for me as a more introverted person and as someone who doesn't enjoy late nights out at bars.

 

[Travel memoir21]

 

[RangerMIke]

In business, I tend to think of cold calling as a bad idea and a waste of time. The success rate on cold calling is very low regardless of the product. I remember reading content about how worthless cold calling was when I graduated college in 2005 and it wasn't a new idea in 2005. I think cold calling is very outdated and wasn't even that great in the past. I have an uncle who had cold calling experience in the 1980s and he didn't think it was a good use of time even then.

When a business uses cold calling with their sales reps, it's a sign of a poorly run organization and one that isn't doing well with marketing supporting sales.

It depends on how you actually do cold calling. I agree, most companies do not know how to do this... just like most men do not know how to do cold approach. A company that does a sh1t job of cold calling appear to be poorly run: men who do a sh1t job of cold approach appear to be of poor quality.

The purpose of a cold, well anything, is to gauge interest and see if who is being approached is open to what you have, if it's a man, then it's if the woman is interested and attracted to what he has: if you are a company selling goods or services... is the potential client in a market for what you are selling.

The purpose of a cold approach (cold call) is to see if the woman in interested and available, get her number or make a date (or if you are a company, set up and in person meeting so the salesman can make a pitch. It's really the same thing, nut different scale.

There is a reason why company salesmen do a statistically better with women, because they understand the process. They know you have to get through all the 'nos' to get to a yes... and much of this is about timing. You can not control the 'timing' all you can do is find the ones where the timing is right.

I also agree that getting rejected too much fvcks with your head... all you can do is inoculate yourself from the negative emotional aspects of rejection... you do this with exposure... this is where practice and self-improvement will help you. If it keeps happening, then self-improvement is the only way to minimize this, the only other reason why someone might be rejected is that they are approaching the wrong women... so again, a little introspection with your selection process and the ability to read social and emotional signals will help.

If a man is not having success with the women he wants, then the only way to fix this is with self-improvement. This is not something easy to sell because what you are selling can not be taken as a pill... it takes a lot of work and effort... and a man will need patience and sweat. For companies it's the same fvckign thing... if they cannot get customers, then they are selling the wrong fvcking product... so they need to restructure their business to sell what people want.... if you are selling what people want and need, then sales are easy.

 

[GoodMan32]

It depends on how you actually do cold calling. I agree, most companies do not know how to do this... just like most men do not know how to do cold approach. A company that does a sh1t job of cold calling appear to be poorly run: men who do a sh1t job of cold approach appear to be of poor quality.

The purpose of a cold, well anything, is to gauge interest and see if who is being approached is open to what you have, if it's a man, then it's if the woman is interested and attracted to what he has: if you are a company selling goods or services... is the potential client in a market for what you are selling.

The purpose of a cold approach (cold call) is to see if the woman in interested and available, get her number or make a date (or if you are a company, set up and in person meeting so the salesman can make a pitch. It's really the same thing, nut different scale.

There is a reason why company salesmen do a statistically better with women, because they understand the process. They know you have to get through all the 'nos' to get to a yes... and much of this is about timing. You can not control the 'timing' all you can do is find the ones where the timing is right.

I also agree that getting rejected too much fvcks with your head... all you can do is inoculate yourself from the negative emotional aspects of rejection... you do this with exposure... this is where practice and self-improvement will help you. If it keeps happening, then self-improvement is the only way to minimize this, the only other reason why someone might be rejected is that they are approaching the wrong women... so again, a little introspection with your selection process and the ability to read social and emotional signals will help.

If a man is not having success with the women he wants, then the only way to fix this is with self-improvement. This is not something easy to sell because what you are selling can not be taken as a pill... it takes a lot of work and effort... and a man will need patience and sweat. For companies it's the same fvckign thing... if they cannot get customers, then they are selling the wrong fvcking product... so they need to restructure their business to sell what people want.... if you are selling what people want and need, then sales are easy.

I've heard the analogy before that asking a woman out is like sales (you might get a lot of rejections before you get a yeah).

I've worked in sales before. In my opinion, comparing sales to asking a woman out is a terrible analogy. When a customer turned down a sales pitch, it wasn't miserable for me to then run into that customer the next time they came into the store.

On the other hand, when rejected by a woman, I find it miserable to cross paths with her post-rejection.

A sales rejection is nothing personal. A romantic/sexual rejection is personal.

Circling back to sales, you're 100% right when you say if you're unable to get customers, you're selling a terrible product that hardly anyone wants. When I was in sales, our boss would force us to push products/services we knew were a scam. Yet he wondered why not enough customers would fall for our sales pitch (That company is currently holding on by a thread. No surprise)

 

[corrector]

I've heard the analogy before that asking a woman out is like sales (you might get a lot of rejections before you get a yeah).

I've worked in sales before. In my opinion, comparing sales to asking a woman out is a terrible analogy. When a customer turned down a sales pitch, it wasn't miserable for me to then run into that customer the next time they came into the store.

On the other hand, when rejected by a woman, I find it miserable to cross paths with her post-rejection.

A sales rejection is nothing personal. A romantic/sexual rejection is personal.

Circling back to sales, you're 100% right when you say if you're unable to get customers, you're selling a terrible product that hardly anyone wants. When I was in sales, our boss would force us to push products/services we knew were a scam. Yet he wondered why not enough customers would fall for our sales pitch (That company is currently holding on by a thread. No surprise)

Exactly. You could end up with a social break-down. However, with some business interactions, where there are higher stakes, lets say Real-Estate, where you could earn a large commission, or end up broke, it does rub off in a way similar or even worst than a romantic rejection. You then blame your poverty on a betrayal of a client that choose another agent to close the deal rather than working with you despite all of the effort and time you wasted. You cant get more personal than that. Anything that involves a betrayal, is still terrible.

This is one reason why I have a sales job where the client can not see my face or video impression. The business is completely over the phone. That way, I can't blame my looks on a sales going bad as they can just hear my voice and either they trust what I'm offering or not.
It's also low stakes. You will make sales so it doesn't matter if you get a day where you make no sales, as you might make 5 sales the next day.

Two different sales scenarios, one is extremely personal, the other is impersonal.

 

[GoodMan32]

Exactly. You could end up with a social break-down. However, with some business interactions, where there are higher stakes, lets say Real-Estate, where you could earn a large commission, or end up broke, it does rub off in a way similar or even worst than a romantic rejection. You then blame your poverty on a betrayal of a client that choose another agent to close the deal rather than working with you despite all of the effort and time you wasted. You cant get more personal than that. Anything that involves a betrayal, is still terrible.

This is one reason why I have a sales job where the client can not see my face or video impression. The business is completely over the phone. That way, I can't blame my looks on a sales going bad as they can just hear my voice and either they trust what I'm offering or not.
It's also low stakes. You will make sales so it doesn't matter if you get a day where you make no sales, as you might make 5 sales the next day.

Two different sales scenarios, one is extremely personal, the other is impersonal.

Yeah, I suppose sales jobs vary.

I was never in a job where my income (or my performance review) was based solely on sales (I worked in stores where most transactions were simply a customer coming to ring out with purchases they chose to make all on their own. But there were opportunities where we could convince a customer to make a special high dollar purchase, as well as opportunities to push add-ons/services).

I was a decent salesman for products customers actually wanted/needed. I remember making a several hundred dollar furniture sale (and even a furniture sale of over a thousand dollars once)

I suppose a job like real estate where your career is 100% reliant upon sales gives you higher stakes. If I were in real estate, I'd certainly be upset if lack of sales ended up putting my job on the line. But that's still not the same type of upset/idiot feeling I get when turned down by a woman I thought was into me.