Fahrenheit 9/11

[Ixnys]

Originally posted by Serg897
I think its this site that REALLY has the half-truths and exagerations here

Its funny how many conservatives resort to attacking Micheal Moore personally rather than actually disputing the facts in his films and books. How many of you saying Fahrenheit 9/11 is bull**** have actually seen the movie yet?

This one is different than Bowling. None of you have even touched on the points Fahrenheit 9/11 makes.

The first part of the film concentrates on exposing the link between the Bin Ladens, the Saudis, and the Bush family, which I guarantee many people dont know about. If Moore is actually lying about this, and many other things the conservatives claim he is lying about, then Im sure the guy would be in jail. What do you make of how members of the Bin Laden family were flown out of here right after Sept 11th without any interrogation on Osamas whereabouts? How is that for the Bush "tough terrorism policy"?

Bush was after Iraq and Saddam Hussein ever since Day 1, and he has convinced the American people that Iraq had links to Al-Qaida, and had WMD's.

Our "coalition of the willing" included the smallest and most insignificant countries, who were just looking to reap the benefits of siding with the United States. The truth is, most of the planet was against Bushes agenda. The bigger players had their own coalition of the UNwilling.

The next major point of the movie is how the troops being sent over in Iraq are dying for nothing. I agree that he does uses a lot of emotion in this part ( with the sad mother and her dead son in Iraq ), but the message is relevant nonetheless. The troops are over in Iraq despite.
1. No WMD's
2. No links to Al-Qaida or terrorists
He also touches on how its mainly the poorer people, like from his Flint Michigan hometown, that are forced to enlist simply becuase they do not have any other option. The part where he tries to get different Congressmen to enlist their children in the military is priceless.

I suggest to everyone bashing this movie that they see it first, so they you can actually talk about what is presented in the movie, instead of just attacking Micheal Moore himself

This is the only reply that is relevent to the movie.

 

[Derek Flint]

56 lies in Fahrenhiet 911:

http://www.davekopel.com/Terror/Fiftysix-Deceits-in-Fahrenheit-911.htm


UN report claims WMD's in Iraq:

http://www.un.org/Depts/unmovic/new/documents/quarterly_reports/s-2004-435.pdf

 

[Serg897]

Originally posted by Derek Flint
Moore himself has declared that his movie is not a documentary but instead an "op-ed" piece.

"(The movie) is an op-ed piece. It's my opinion about the last four years of the Bush administration. And that's what I call it. I'm not trying to pretend that this is some sort of, you know, fair and balanced work of journalism."

http://www.naplesnews.com/npdn/pe_columnists/article/0,2071,NPDN_14960_2994916,00.html

that is true, the movie has his opinion. But facts are facts. Even if you believe some of them are lies, there are some that are completely irrefutable.

As far as Fahrenheit 9/11 goes I'm not 100% conviced who to believe. People are critisizing a man who has no way of coming here to defend his views and I don't see any reason why I should believe any of these anti-moore sites either. If Moore were truly lying then Bush could easily use the Patriot Act against his azz. If someone lies or slanders then you prove them wrong in court not by creating some internet bullsh1t.

Moore is a very conspicous figure these days, and what he is saying about these politicians can and will be very hurtful to the continuation of their careers. So, if he is really slandering them, why not go after him? Why not show the world that he is a liar and reclaim their good names? The fact that this isn't happening leads me to believe that Moore is being truthful. I want to see someone face Moore in Court and prove him wrong.

I completely agree 100%

 

[boost]

Originally posted by Shiftkey
Nice boost.

The only assault rifle I've shot was an AK-47. It was one of the perks of being in boyscouts lol

^^ My VEPR K 7.62x39. AK action, takes normal AK mags, but the metal in the receiver is 50% thicker than a normal AKM's, and it has a beefed up trunion and bull barrel. It is basically a semi-auto conversion of the Russians' equivlent of our squad automatic weapon.

Here is the Superlight again, with its 20" Heavy Barrel big brother to the left, and a Marlin 336 w/cheesy scope to the right:

Here is the Superlight with its evil companion, a SIG P226 .40S&W:

Come on folks, I know I'm not the only shooter on this board.

 

[boost]

As far as Fahrenheit 9/11 goes I'm not 100% conviced who to believe. People are critisizing a man who has no way of coming here to defend his views and I don't see any reason why I should believe any of these anti-moore sites either. If Moore were truly lying then Bush could easily use the Patriot Act against his azz. If someone lies or slanders then you prove them wrong in court not by creating some internet bullsh1t.

Moore is a very conspicous figure these days, and what he is saying about these politicians can and will be very hurtful to the continuation of their careers. So, if he is really slandering them, why not go after him? Why not show the world that he is a liar and reclaim their good names? The fact that this isn't happening leads me to believe that Moore is being truthful. I want to see someone face Moore in Court and prove him wrong.

The same defamation rules that apply to individuals do not apply to government. Mikey can say whatever BS he wants, and no one can do anything about it. The government will never sue him.

He is such a polarizing figure at this point anyway, that I seriously doubt another one of his works of fiction is going to swing the election one way or the other.

 

[Serg897]

Originally posted by boost

He is such a polarizing figure at this point anyway, that I seriously doubt another one of his works of fiction is going to swing the election one way or the other.

hehe, what makes you so sure?

This movie has been #1 in the box office, drawing huge crowds accross the nation, despite only playing in what, 800 theaters? I think its going to have more of an effect than you realize.

 

[boost]

Originally posted by Serg897
hehe, what makes you so sure?

This movie has been #1 in the box office, drawing huge crowds accross the nation, despite only playing in what, 800 theaters? I think its going to have more of an effect than you realize.

Just because people are watching it, doesn't mean they are believing it.

Everyone already has an opinion of MM. They either love him or hate him. The people that love him were going to vote for Kerry anyway, and the people that hate him are going to vote for Bush no matter what he says.

Just the way I see it.

 

[Derek Flint]

Originally posted by Serg897
that is true, the movie has his opinion. But facts are facts. Even if you believe some of them are lies, there are some that are completely irrefutable.

56 points in Moore's movie refuted:

http://www.davekopel.com/Terror/Fiftysix-Deceits-in-Fahrenheit-911.htm

 

[RochambeauAllStar]

Kool-Aid

You've all drank it. Doesn't matter if the flavor is Bush or Moore.

 

[PuertoRican_Lover]

Don't argue with wicked warmongering idiots - they are just upset because their lies and hateful conduct was exposed for the world to see . Thank goodness that there is still a few outlets left in this country not controlled by our governtment/cia/right-wing christian fascists/Jew media!

Mooore didn't explain the real cAUSE OF THE WAR ANYWAY - Jews and christian fascists approached Clinton to attack iraq in 1998 - he declined - so thay got bush to do it since he was good for nothing else!!

The change in the whole middle east region benefits israel. If Moore would have told the truth that Jews/Israel was the main leaders/instigators of this war, they would never have let moore distribute the film!!!

 

[Derek Flint]

Originally posted by Dust 2 Dust
Anyone who has studied Karl Marx knows that it's the Bourgeoisie that fights the wars with proletariat blood.

Over 100 members of Congress are veterans.

http://www.davekopel.com/Terror/Fiftysix-Deceits-in-Fahrenheit-911.htm

 

[Wubbman]

Originally posted by Shiftkey
Nice boost.

The only assault rifle I've shot was an AK-47. It was one of the perks of being in boyscouts lol

Lol. The M16A2 is the only way to go! I'd love to own one. Its very fun to shoot, though I don't think I'd want to use it in actual combat, as the round is relatively small. Shooting it is/was one of the perks of being in the Army Reserve and ROTC.

 

[boost]

Originally posted by Wubbman
Lol. The M16A2 is the only way to go! I'd love to own one. Its very fun to shoot, though I don't think I'd want to use it in actual combat, as the round is relatively small. Shooting it is/was one of the perks of being in the Army Reserve and ROTC.

5.56mm has been kicking ass in combat for over 40 years. Nine out of ten terrorist eliminators favor it.

In all seriousness, its a fine round when its up to necessary velocity. Don't hesitate to rely on it.

 

[Shiftkey]

Derek, I read some of those so called "deceits" in your link. Many of them are really reaching. Take this one for example...

September 11

Deceit 7

Fahrenheit presents a powerful segment on the September 11 attacks. There is no narration, and the music is dramatic yet tasteful. The visuals are reaction shots from pedestrians, as they gasp with horrified astonishment.

Moore has been criticized for using the reaction shots as a clever way to avoid showing the planes hitting the buildings, and some of the victims falling to their deaths. Even if this is true, the segment still effectively evokes the horror that every decent human being felt on September 11.

But remember, Moore does not necessarily feel the same way. As New York’s former Mayor Edward Koch reported, Moore later said, “I don’t know why we are making so much of an act of terror. It is three times more likely that you will be struck by lightening than die from an act of terror.”

Like several of the other deceits identified in this report, the September 11 deceit is not part of the film itself. Several of the deceits involve claim that Moore has made when discussing the film. Like some deceits which are identified near the end of this report, the September 11 deceit involves the contradiction between Moore's purported feelings about a topic in the movie and what appear to be his actual feelings about that topic. If a Klansman made a film which feigned admiration for Rosa Parks, that too would be a form of deceit, even if the film were accurate in its portrayal of Parks as a great American hero.

Ok, so it appears to this author that Moore has different opinions than the reactions of people in his film. So what? The documentary isn't on Moore, it's on the white house. And why the critisism of not showing the people jumping out of the buildings? Would that make this not a "deciet"?

As for MM's comment about people being more likely to die from lightning - he's trying to defuse the fear tactics that the white house has been using on the dumb masses. This comment in no way suggests that MM doesn't consider 9/11 a tragety. Or that he doesn't hold the opinions he is trying to reflect in this scene.

Your link is a hypocritical joke.

 

[Shiftkey]

UN report claims WMD's in Iraq:

http://www.un.org/Depts/unmovic/new.../s-2004-435.pdf

I read part of this. Two claims were made from what I read. They found a biological research center with the capibility to make biological weapons (duh - and also help fight diseases...). They also found some scrap metal of old missiles - probably from when the US supplied Iraq with such missiles.

Perhaps you could quote the part that proves Iraq has WMD? I don't know why you're claiming this. If it were true, it would be all over the news. Do you honestly think Bush would sit on this? He'd milk it for everything it's worth.

 

[Derek Flint]

Originally posted by Shiftkey
Derek, I read some of those so called "deceits" in your link. Many of them are really reaching. Take this one for example...



Ok, so it appears to this author that Moore has different opinions than the reactions of people in his film. So what? The documentary isn't on Moore, it's on the white house. And why the critisism of not showing the people jumping out of the buildings? Would that make this not a "deciet"?

As for MM's comment about people being more likely to die from lightning - he's trying to defuse the fear tactics that the white house has been using on the dumb masses. This comment in no way suggests that MM doesn't consider 9/11 a tragety. Or that he doesn't hold the opinions he is trying to reflect in this scene.

Your link is a hypocritical joke.

No, that link shows exactly how Moore stretches the truth, lies by omission and only gives you "facts" that support his argument while ignoring the ones that don't.

And Moore spends half the movie linking Bush's business dealings to the Bin Ladens while ignoring the fact that the Bin Laden family is huge in construction in the Middle East, that lots of US companies do business with them and the fact that the Bin Laden family has been Estranged from Osama for several years.

But when it's to Moore's benifit, he claims Osama in not necessarily guilty of 9-11, as he had as recently as a year ago.

This "documentary" is not about Moore, but Moore's credibility comes into question for the reasons listed above.

The only "dumb masses" are the ones buying into his deceit.

"911 is a joke"
--Public Enemy

 

[Derek Flint]

Originally posted by Shiftkey
I read part of this. Two claims were made from what I read. They found a biological research center with the capibility to make biological weapons (duh - and also help fight diseases...). They also found some scrap metal of old missiles - probably from when the US supplied Iraq with such missiles.

Perhaps you could quote the part that proves Iraq has WMD? I don't know why you're claiming this. If it were true, it would be all over the news. Do you honestly think Bush would sit on this? He'd milk it for everything it's worth.

Please name what weapons/missles the US supplied to Iraq.

Bonus points if you can provide links to mainstream sources to back your claim.

And I guess the 15 or so shells of Cyclosarin that were found last week don't qualify as WMD's, because they were "old"

Never mind the fact that terrorist groups were willing to pay up to $5000 each for them.

And they weren't looking to purchase them for the sentimental value.

 

[Unregistered]

http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0802-01.htm

http://times.discovery.com/convergence/iraq/timeline_03.html

Throughout the period that Rumsfeld was Reagan’s Middle East envoy, Iraq was frantically purchasing hardware from American firms, empowered by the White House to sell. The buying frenzy began immediately after Iraq was removed from the list of alleged sponsors of terrorism in 1982. According to a February 13, 1991 Los Angeles Times article:

“First on Hussein's shopping list was helicopters -- he bought 60 Hughes helicopters and trainers with little notice. However, a second order of 10 twin-engine Bell "Huey" helicopters, like those used to carry combat troops in Vietnam, prompted congressional opposition in August, 1983... Nonetheless, the sale was approved.”

In 1984, according to The LA Times, the State Department—in the name of “increased American penetration of the extremely competitive civilian aircraft market”—pushed through the sale of 45 Bell 214ST helicopters to Iraq. The helicopters, worth some $200 million, were originally designed for military purposes. The New York Times later reported that Saddam “transferred many, if not all [of these helicopters] to his military.”


---But that was just the beginning of Reagan's pro-Iraq campaign. The United States sold the Iraqis military jeeps and Lockheed L-100 transports. And, according to a 2002 report in The New York Times, as many as 60 American intelligence officers provided Iraq with "critical battle planning assistance," lending detailed information on Iranian deployments, plans for airstrikes and bomb-damage assessments. The Times story further reported that this intelligence assistance was offered even though American officers knew the Iraqi commanders would probably use chemical weapons against the Iranians.

 

[Unregistered]

Although I think Michael Moore could have made a much better movie if he would have cut out the bull**** conspiracy theories.

 

[Derek Flint]

Originally posted by Unregistered
http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0802-01.htm

http://times.discovery.com/convergence/iraq/timeline_03.html

Throughout the period that Rumsfeld was Reagan’s Middle East envoy, Iraq was frantically purchasing hardware from American firms, empowered by the White House to sell. The buying frenzy began immediately after Iraq was removed from the list of alleged sponsors of terrorism in 1982. According to a February 13, 1991 Los Angeles Times article:

“First on Hussein's shopping list was helicopters -- he bought 60 Hughes helicopters and trainers with little notice. However, a second order of 10 twin-engine Bell "Huey" helicopters, like those used to carry combat troops in Vietnam, prompted congressional opposition in August, 1983... Nonetheless, the sale was approved.”

In 1984, according to The LA Times, the State Department—in the name of “increased American penetration of the extremely competitive civilian aircraft market”—pushed through the sale of 45 Bell 214ST helicopters to Iraq. The helicopters, worth some $200 million, were originally designed for military purposes. The New York Times later reported that Saddam “transferred many, if not all [of these helicopters] to his military.”


---But that was just the beginning of Reagan's pro-Iraq campaign. The United States sold the Iraqis military jeeps and Lockheed L-100 transports. And, according to a 2002 report in The New York Times, as many as 60 American intelligence officers provided Iraq with "critical battle planning assistance," lending detailed information on Iranian deployments, plans for airstrikes and bomb-damage assessments. The Times story further reported that this intelligence assistance was offered even though American officers knew the Iraqi commanders would probably use chemical weapons against the Iranians.

I wouldn't call Jeeps and Transport Helicopters weapons.

Oh, and try to link to a more credible web site than commondreams.org