Everything Bad is Good, and All You've Learned is Wrong

BrotherAP

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I love being the nice guy.

I'll call way too soon (the next day... why not?), take girls out to dinner and pay, smile and lay a fat compliment on an HB, tell them about how I love my momma, actually tell a girl that I like her, and even stop before I'm about to say something because I realize it's not very nice. Sometimes I open with cheesy lines that telegraph interest like "Hey you were too cute to pass up", and sometimes I even put up with a girl who isn't putting out as long as we're gettin somewhere (I mean hardcore making out, ya know not friend zone) because I know she's just holdin out on me as long as she can stand it... and it's never long. Women tell each other I'm a great guy, a wonderful person and a great catch. I'm nice, I'm considerate, and it all works for me. I pretty much ignore the majority of the advice on this website, because it's all crap.

Ok ok I'm exaggerating a little bit. I'm not a total nice guy like everyone here is afraid of being, and in fact I never was. And I know what you're thinking, but no I'm not good looking enough to get away with supplicative behavior. In fact, I'm not the least bit supplicative. If I do any of the above, it's because I feel like it, and really I could give a crap if it raises or lowers her interest level. And that, fellows, is exactly why it works.
 

BrotherAP

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Everything Bad is Good (cont'd)

You see, you can try as hard as you can to make a list of 'dating rules' that make you seem like some awesome guy that any woman would be glad to swoon over. Try and be 'spontaneous' by making a chart of when to call women - yeah that's real daring, captain wildchild. I bet women love your dangerous side, calling on a Wednesday. You know exactly when to say "Are you checking me out!?" and they just love it don't they? Not that you sound rehearsed because you've been waiting for an oppurtunity to say that all night. And I'm sure you sitting there the whole time making a mental checklist of "indicators of interest" so you make sure you are raising her interest level (not working? more C&F... stat! Still no? Uhh... Kino! No? Damn, ignore her until she comes around. Wait! She's not comin back! Oh well NEXT!) isn't going to affect you at all through your body language and tonality. Surely you won't betray the fact that you are using about every supplicative technique known to man short of just buying her flowers and telling her that's she's beautiful just like you did the last 50 girls.

You know I must be full of it, I'm challenging everything you know is true and right! I mean, we all know every guy who's read all these techniques gets laid like a rockstar. It's a widely believed fact. Surely this weird BrotherAP character has spent the last year posting on this website acting as an undercover feminist agent, slowly gaining respect so that he could mislead these poor guys in the wrong direction to make sure that they don't get good with girls, because he would hate to see somebody succeed!

Well I'm not an undercover feminist, and I do want you to succeed. That's why I'm making this post. What I wrote in the first paragraph, mind you, are all things that I have done in the last year and gotten away with - well more than gotten away with. Done with great effect. But you have to understand it's because I'm coming from the other side. View it as a sliding scale from complete prick to total doormat, with the balance being right in the middle. Most of the guys come here to the left, the nice guy doormat sad, and these techniques are intended as device to get closer to the center. The problem is, there's a fundamental belief system that has to change, and unfortunately the total prick is much closer to having a mindset that gets him laid than the total nice guy. He starts out with no respect for boundaries, no desire to be validated by others, and no concern what others think about him, and quickly learns that he has to reign in his attitude for people to want to be around him. Why is this so much easier than coming from the side of the nice guy? Well to go from approval-seeking to somebody who doesn't care, to learn when to cross boundaries by trial and error (and, by error, I really mean going too far), and to acquire the swagger that all women fantasize about it takes a lot of balls. A lot of times naturals are lucky that this is where they started. They never had to 'man up' and learn to 'cross the line'.

So what's wrong with the advice here? Doesn't it teach men to do just that - to cross the line? In short, no. No it doesn't. The problem is, it tries to tell men exactly where the line is, and how to get right to it without ever going over. And that doesn't help anybody - because to be truly good with people you have to be a very adept risk taker. Sometimes you're not going to know if something is too much, a comment goes too far or a touch will really be welcomed. You know how you find out? You go for it. It takes balls at first, it really does. But you do it a few times, and you realize that it isn't so hard afterall, and the consequences are nothing like you imagined. Sure, you will probably cross the line in embarassing ways at least a couple of times, but trust me you will laugh at yourself later for it. What am I saying?

Ditch the techniques! They're not helping you. You're not getting laid because your waiting to call her a certain amount of days. That's a placebo. You think it makes you more attractive, hence your confidence is boosted and - viola! - you become more attractive. I'm not saying it's a bad thing. But when you're too nervous to call her on any day besides the designated day, well then it's a problem. You're not confident anymore - you're dependent. And, worst of all, you're unable to adapt.

Oh and about ****y & Funny - lay off it. I mean, yeah, it's a good conversational tool that most truly confident guys have to some degree. But you're all taking it wayyyy too far. It's like, every other sentence doesn't have to be some comment about how hot you are. Just like millionaires don't feel the need to talk about how rich they are (and if they do, they're annoying), guys who get laid don't feel the need to talk about how they get laid. Sure, every now and then throw her a ****y comment, just to show her you're a fun guy and you don't take yourself or others too seriously. Make sure it's funny, too! Say it, and forget it. You shouldn't be dropping the line and waiting for her to say, stunned "Wow.. I had no idea you were so... ****y. And funny. Make love to me NOW" Because it doesn't work that way. Although you might get a slight look, or a touch with a laugh, or even an eye roll with a playful punch. These are all good things. But you're not going to get them if you're just spouting memorized ****y lines. Be spontaneous, man. This is all supposed to be fun. No pressure. If you get to a point of comfort, you'll find C&F comin out all on it's own.

But there's more wrong with the strict adherence to these rules than people might realize, even if they agree with everything I've already said. You see, not all girl troubles are caused by a guy being too easily won. So much of this advice is written for the 'nice guy' give-too-much-too-soon personality that the rest is lost in the haystack, and people start believing that the right thing to do is always be more aloof. Less interested. More challenging. Well it doesn't always work that way. A girl won't invest herself unless she thinks you're investing yourself too! Sometimes you've got to give them something to go on, a small compliment, maybe a quick "you know I like you", a lingering look. Give them a reason to believe that you're not using them for sex - because, really, you shouldn't be. But that's another post. Point is, if you've gotten your act together enough that you're already a challenge then acting like you're "too cool for school" is going to frustrate the women into not pursuing. How can I put this? It goes back to cat-string theory. A cat will chase a string that you dangle in front of it just so. If you let it have it, just sitting there in front of it, it doesn't care (nice guy). But if you just yank it 10 feet into the air and leave it there, the cat won't bother. You've got to dangle it just within reach, or just without. Anywhere else and it's too easy or too hard. Strike a balance!

What's really most important here is that you learn to interact with the fairer sex (yes, women are the fairer sex, and if you disagree, you're gay). The best way to do this is to interact with them more. Maybe it'll take you a year before you really seem natural, confident, and comfortable without being too aggressive, creepy, or too withdrawn. Given the information at your behest here, the people you can talk to, and the fact that you know not to put women on a pedestal means that you should be starting a point better than at least 50% of your peers if not more. You have no excuse not to be really getting good! Go out and talk to girls, however you want to do it. I don't care if you use routines or not (even if I think they're silly, there are respected people who like them so I'm not judgin), hell it doesn't even matter what you say or use just talk to them. The more you do, the better you'll be, and you know what you'll be doing well enough within a year that your confidence will be solid. I mean, the more time you spend dealing with chicks, the more you realize it's no big deal. Not even worth writing as much as I have over. Yet here I am trying to explain it to you because it's just one of those that every guy has to figure out at some point, and I want to help you on your way. So go out there and talk to girls! Every day! It's simple and straightforward - the more you do this, with whatever plan, or even no plan at all, the better you'll get. This is how naturals became naturals, and this is how you are going to do it to.

One more point of contention, and I just have to bring this up. While the phone game on this website definitely sucks, there is no worse phone advice than the three day rule. Every girl knows about the three day rule. Cosmo talks about the three day rule. You're not showing her that you're busy and couldn't call her, you're showing her that you were too afraid of looking desperate so you followed some stupid rule that you probably read in Maxim magazine and, in the process, actually made yourself desperate. Good job cowboy. So here's what I want you to do: forget you ever heard the 3 day rule. Call her within 1-2 days, or as soon as possible if you can't do that, and everything will be fine. It's not that complicated.

Anyway that's all I'm going to say for now, but seriously think about what I've said. Actually, don't think about it. Just go do something. Talk to some girls for chrissakes. Just talk. No interest level, no challenge, and no C&F unless you really think of something C&F worth saying. If you don't have anything to say, don't say anything. See what happens, maybe she'll fill in the gaps. If not, oh well, whatever, you're just talking. Have fun with it. Getting girls really is as easy as you want it to be.
 

L777

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BrotherAP said:
Ditch the techniques! They're not helping you. .
trust me, they are.

seriously though, this should be deleted
 

Bvbidd

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L777 said:
trust me, they are.

seriously though, this should be deleted
Sure they could work if she's too stupid to tell if your faking your self-image and using memorized tactics to control her emotions.

The guy above at least is just honest and natural and has a life.. of course they could all be cheating on him. :crackup:

BrotherAP - Just stick with what you do.. you get laid. If L777 has to do all this geeky intrest level stuff to get laid, then you both get laid either way. This is why I say as long as she's physically attracted.. your getting laid.
 

L777

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Bvbidd said:
Sure they could work if she's too stupid to tell if your faking your self-image and using memorized tactics to control her emotions.

The guy above at least is just honest and natural and has a life.. of course they could all be cheating on him. :crackup:

BrotherAP - Just stick with what you do.. you get laid. If L777 has to do all this geeky intrest level stuff to get laid, then you both get laid either way. This is why I say as long as she's physically attracted.. your getting laid.
<cough> virgin <cough>
 

Never try to read a woman's mind. It is a scary place. Ignore her confusing signals and mixed messages. Assume she is interested in you and act accordingly.

Quote taken from The SoSuave Guide to Women and Dating, which you can read for FREE.

Bvbidd

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L777 said:
<cough> virgin <cough>
:crackup:

You know what I meant, as long as you still go for it. Using the techniques are not mandatory but being confident is.

I'm not saying you'll be jumped on if their attracted to you, but you both get laid so you don't NEED the techniques.
 

poohead

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yeah but i bet you only AFC once in a blue moon, not all the time.
it's ok to let the AFC slip once in a while, as long as it's not constant.
 

BrotherAP

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poohead said:
yeah but i bet you only AFC once in a blue moon, not all the time.
it's ok to let the AFC slip once in a while, as long as it's not constant.
It's not like that. I've got myself together, and there is no AFC to slip. I understand the power of walking away and I'm willing to do so at any moment. I make sure to keep up my options and have several girls I'm interested in at any point. I'm truly secure with myself, and do what I want to do because I'm not afraid of losing the girl. Can I buy her roses? If I want to. Does that mean I think I have to, or I will? Of course not! Will she lose interest if I do? Unlikely. Because I establish myself as confident and non-supplicative, I'm healthily aloof, I'm willing to walk away and she knows it, and I've got other options, whatever I do that you might think is 'AFC' really just makes her more attracted to me because I'm giving her little bits of excitement and surprise, but I never go too far. It works because I can 'let the AFC slip' but she's still left wondering if I REALLY like her. The more I give her, the harder she falls for me.

Build your game solid - and I mean completely externally and internally solid - and you will never have to worry about an 'AFC slip' again. Techniques are really descriptions of what guys with lots of experience and natural success already do, but it's so much harder to try and act like you think a high value man should act instead of just becoming high value. That's the real goal of this website - become the natural. And the good news is that it's not even very hard, all it takes it time.
 

Dee-Zy

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I stopped reading half way through your 2nd post.

You are on point. This is probably what I need right now. After being on this site for so long, I am so caught up with the 'rules'. Especially AD's. I try to protect myself too much (ie: Nexting too fast) because I have been burned so much in the past.

Truth is, AD's school is about getting the wife, I'm not there yet.

two thumbs up on this post, and if you think this is garbage, you have alot to learn. Things that this board can't teach you, only the real world and experience can.
 

poohead

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BrotherAP said:
It's not like that. I've got myself together, and there is no AFC to slip. I understand the power of walking away and I'm willing to do so at any moment. I make sure to keep up my options and have several girls I'm interested in at any point. I'm truly secure with myself, and do what I want to do because I'm not afraid of losing the girl. Can I buy her roses? If I want to. Does that mean I think I have to, or I will? Of course not! Will she lose interest if I do? Unlikely. Because I establish myself as confident and non-supplicative, I'm healthily aloof, I'm willing to walk away and she knows it, and I've got other options, whatever I do that you might think is 'AFC' really just makes her more attracted to me because I'm giving her little bits of excitement and surprise, but I never go too far. It works because I can 'let the AFC slip' but she's still left wondering if I REALLY like her. The more I give her, the harder she falls for me.

Build your game solid - and I mean completely externally and internally solid - and you will never have to worry about an 'AFC slip' again. Techniques are really descriptions of what guys with lots of experience and natural success already do, but it's so much harder to try and act like you think a high value man should act instead of just becoming high value. That's the real goal of this website - become the natural. And the good news is that it's not even very hard, all it takes it time.

how do you establish that you're 'able to walk away' so early in a relationship, without just outright saying it or picking a fight just to prove your point?
 

BrotherAP

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poohead said:
how do you establish that you're 'able to walk away' so early in a relationship, without just outright saying it or picking a fight just to prove your point?
Ah yes, it's all in mastering the art of sub-communication. First step first though, actually be willing to walk away. Is that your real question? "How do I become willing enough to walk away that my actions naturally convey it?" If not, it'd be a good question to ask. A good step towards this is to have other options that are just as good, as per Rollo Tomassi's Plate Theory. You'll be much more inclined to walk away from a woman who's giving you trouble if she's not your only option, and chances are you'll end up communicating this implicitly. But, of course we don't want to have to rely on that. It can get very complicated when dealing with girls, but I'll give a brief explanation.

In short, it's a matter of punishment/reward. In order to define your boundaries (and well defined boundaries are absolutely necessary for a woman to respect you) you must be aware of how you can punish or reward a woman for certain behaviors. Think of your attention, pursuit and affection as the most powerful reward, and withdrawal of it a punishment. When a girl does something that you disapprove of, show her that you disapprove of it. Don't get mad and huffy, or sullen and pouty, just be clear. It starts small, so you can't tolerate the little things (but that doesn't mean be all psycho and overdramatic either). Think of it as a variation of the "Broken Window Policy." By objecting to the small annoyances, she KNOWS you will refuse to tolerate the big impasses. Some examples are, in the pickup, if she says something really stupid. I mean, she drops that bomb of self-centered entitled superiority complex. Like when I was out with a girl who asked for a sip of my beer and I teased her "I only have 12 ounces to enjoy, get your own!" and she made this scoffing sound and said "No guys EVER tell ME I can't have alcohol." I must have been looking at her like she just farted... and I didn't even say anything. As soon as I saw the snob look fade from her face, I said "Fine... here have it. No really." She apologized right then! In fact, she spent the next hour being exceptionally nice, trying to convince me that she wasn't a stuck-up bytch. And I never even said anything.

In short, you establish that you're willing to walk away the same way you establish anything - through your actions. Most guys are too afraid to criticize a person they just met, or are on a first date with. When starting at the first date women know that you are legitimately judging their behavior, they will really respect you for it. I mean, they'll tell their girlfriends about you - it's that rare. Then they'll watch what they do because they actually want you to like them. When you do take them home, they'll really trust you because they feel like they've 'passed your test'. This is the kind of thing you must do if you enjoy hearing things like "I've never met a man like you before."

Show her with what you do. Say as little as needed.
 

Friendly Otter

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Could have said the same thing with way shorter posts. Good to see that you have done some thinking, though.

BrotherAP said:
The problem is, there's a fundamental belief system that has to change, and unfortunately the total prick is much closer to having a mindset that gets him laid than the total nice guy.
Yes, so we are in agreement then.

Your complaint is that people shouldn't adhere strictly to the rules, but improvise when it is called for, and that a lot depends on being able to do things naturally. That's the geist of it. Well, who on this site doesn't agree with you? That's the "inner game" that has to be fixed before you can do anything else.
 

BrotherAP

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Friendly Otter said:
Yes, so we are in agreement then.

Your complaint is that people shouldn't adhere strictly to the rules, but improvise when it is called for, and that a lot depends on doing things naturally. That's the geist of it. Well, who on this site doesn't agree with you? That's the "inner game" that has to be fixed before you can do anything else.
A lot of people here don't get it. I read thread after thread after thread bad questions with worse replies, and it just hammers home the point that people are missing this basic principle. You and I are in agreement, I'm glad. Now hopefully a few other people will start to see it in a new light.

This isn't a post for people who've already figured it out, and sorry the length is long for you. You're probably frustrated because you didn't need to read it to begin with. I did do my best by justify my point of view for those who might be doubtful.
 

Dante3214

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L777 said:
trust me, they are.

seriously though, this should be deleted


For most people, these "techniques" do work.


We weren't ment to live by them exactly though, we simply do what works for us, and using simple-to-follow techniques builds confidence, which is ALL that you'll EVER need.
 

BrotherAP

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Dante3214 said:
For most people, these "techniques" do work.


We weren't ment to live by them exactly though, we simply do what works for us, and using simple-to-follow techniques builds confidence, which is ALL that you'll EVER need.
Then why are over a third of the posters here virgins, and another third can't get laid more than once every six months? (Source: How many did you DO in 2005). Granted, it's not a problem if it's a choice, but by being here they're indictating they want to get laid more.

Look confidence is great, but reliance on these techniques does not give you confidence. It gives you confidence in the techniques. If anything is getting these guys laid, it's the fact that they are out there talking to girls and learning what to do and not to do. The longer you're out talking to REAL girls and actually having sex (as opposed to just talking about it here), the more you'll realize that these techniques can do as much damage as help unless you're already experienced enough to know when to use them and when not to. And when you reach that point, you don't need them anyway.
 

Zerotwoonenine

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hey man stop trying to confuse the new Djs with your little joke.
Being a nice guy rarely rarely works.
Up you game.
 

djbr

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BrotherAP said:
So what's wrong with the advice here? Doesn't it teach men to do just that - to cross the line? In short, no. No it doesn't. The problem is, it tries to tell men exactly where the line is, and how to get right to it without ever going over. And that doesn't help anybody - because to be truly good with people you have to be a very adept risk taker. Sometimes you're not going to know if something is too much, a comment goes too far or a touch will really be welcomed. You know how you find out? You go for it. It takes balls at first, it really does. But you do it a few times, and you realize that it isn't so hard afterall, and the consequences are nothing like you imagined. Sure, you will probably cross the line in embarassing ways at least a couple of times, but trust me you will laugh at yourself later for it. What am I saying?

Ditch the techniques! They're not helping you. You're not getting laid because your waiting to call her a certain amount of days. That's a placebo. You think it makes you more attractive, hence your confidence is boosted and - viola! - you become more attractive. I'm not saying it's a bad thing. But when you're too nervous to call her on any day besides the designated day, well then it's a problem. You're not confident anymore - you're dependent. And, worst of all, you're unable to adapt.
SUPERB POST BrotherAP.

I second every word of it, and for the ones who can't grasp what the guy said PLEASE read it until it sinks it. It IS indeed much easier than it seems.

Again, excellent post!
 

HuuBinh

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Excellent post BrotherAP!
I'm glad that you're advocating a natural/direct game in an indirect forum.

Techniques are LIMITATIONS.
 

frivolousz21

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Brother AP-

another great post.

those things you did arent AFC>

buying a girl flowers isnt afc
opening a door isnt afc
how you do things is what they are.

if u buy a girl flowers out of desperation then ur screwed.

IF u buy ur woman flowers on her b day or a special occaion and ur a man about it..then ur fine.

when im walking in a store and i let my gf open the door..i feel like an idiot.

and look like one too.

its good to see others are grasping reality.

the reality is woman are getting special rights in the world thats wrong.
but the same reality is my woman is special to me and she will know that.

I have gotten to undertand the diff in the 2.
 

Friendly Otter

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BrotherAP, what you are saying about learning through trying and trying isn't new, it is a part of what is taught here. As I read your posts, I see that the points you are making are already part of what is here called DJing, it's just that you put different emphasis on some parts. (Which is, by the way, how many a religion and many an ideology have split - people believing in the same message, just mentioning different parts of it with different emphasis.)

So it seems like what you are really criticizing is not the moves themselves, but someone using them badly, stiltily. And you imagine that that misuser is what the general philosophy here aims to create, but I don't think it does.

Practice makes perfect - yes, it is evident.
 

Create self-fulfilling prophecies. Always assume the positive. Assume she likes you. Assume she wants to talk to you. Assume she wants to go out with you. When you think positive, positive things happen.

Quote taken from The SoSuave Guide to Women and Dating, which you can read for FREE.

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