Economic Collapse Inevitable...how to protect ourselves??

[Throttle]

First of all, YOU NEED a degree in economics, to be an economist (just as you need a degree in medicine, to be a doctor, or a law degree, to be a lawyer).

you also need to pass board exams to practice medicine or law (legally). nobody hands out board certifications in econ (which would present its own problems) so we have to hope that BAs, MAs and PhDs picked something up along the way. but i don't want a bunch of BAs in economics running around telling us to trust them b/c they know best. (i don't think you meant this at all but inadvertently implied it)

bb's opinions are unsupported rubbish b/c they're fairly easy to disprove, and a rigorous understanding of economics makes it easier to understand the (dis-)proof. but i don't think he'll listen to reason, so it's not worth reasoning with any of his assertions [edit: aw, hell, i can't resist giving it a shot]. on the other hand, A-unit often says things that either are (a) smarter and/or more incisive than anything I'd come up with OR (b) repeats a certain bit of conventional wisdom. Either way, I think that sometimes it's worth taking the time to disagree with him, if only in part.

 

[Throttle]

Some of are saying "oh, you just dont' undrestand the way thing swork, we are growing, etc".. tha'ts not it. it's the extremely simple fact that, we have more debt that we can pay off, and our money is literarly worth nothing, and the only reason it is right now is because people say it is. We never shoul have left the gold standard.

the only reason gold is worth what it is worth is because people say it is. gold has no more intrinsic value than any other commodity, and until the advent of semiconductors, it's primary practical use (if you can call it that) was jewelry (still one of its main uses). People are willing to treat it as valuable b/c it is scarce. Fortunately for people who have always relied on it as a store of value, the alchemists' quest has long been an utter failure, and it has remained expensive to mine it. But fans of gold forget the many gluts & crashes over the centuries.

it's simple. if you believe that US$ are utterly worthless, put your money where your mouth is and stop using them. use only bank-issued specie that is fully backed by actual physical gold reserves. why stop there? use only fully certified, assayed chunks of gold. (you can come up with your own seal to stamp on them if you like, and re-invent the coin).

the US federal debt is still quite manageable (and aside from recent mismanagement would be even moreso) and if it ever ceased to be manageable, we could inflate our way out from under it (the gold standard would close off this option). now this would have its own very costly consequences, but the often used analogy to an individual going bankrupt is absolutely, completely false. intellectually bankrupt, you might say.

 

[wayword]

This is a very complex topic, but here's what I know so far:

1) We are $9 TRILL in debt! This is an unprecedented amount in our history - that has largely spiralled out-of-control post-WWII! Wake-up people! :nervous:

2) Currency is really only as valuable as the commodities it's backed by. This is like a stock's fundamental value - which it will always eventually correct to. Gold does have some value - more historical than anything. And oil has a lot of universal value today - which is why we have OPEC - which forces the Mid East to sell all their oil in USD. In effect, putting the USD on a defacto oil standard. Were it not for this, its global value would have already rapidly plunged.

Which is why we staged 9II and invaded Iraq - and Iran next. Iraq started selling their oil in other currency and Iran is planning to as well with their Oil Bourse (IOB). We have gone to war there to STOP THAT.

3) The Euro is officially backed by precious metals - which is one reason why its value keeps rising...as opposed to the USD - which keeps dropping.

4) A fallen USD is not the end of the story, though. Ironically, as the US struggles to prop the dollar up, China struggles to keep their RMB down. Point being that different countries in different developmental phases might prefer a weaker or stronger currency. Basically, a strong currency is better for high-end consumers and a weak one better for low-end manufacturers. So, a weakening dollar might stimulate more low-paying jobs here and force us to spend less on high-end products or abroad. Basically, push us back down from the consumer top of the pyramid to the cheap labor bottom base.

5) So, I'm not sure a total freefall collapse is that guaranteed considering how connected we are in a global economy. Perhaps more likely is a shift from rich consumer to cheap producer. Then again, if we don't make that shift to adapt...we might indeed be left as POOR CONSUMERS - which would basically be a depression.

 

[backbreaker]

the only reason gold is worth what it is worth is because people say it is. gold has no more intrinsic value than any other commodity, and until the advent of semiconductors, it's primary practical use (if you can call it that) was jewelry (still one of its main uses). People are willing to treat it as valuable b/c it is scarce. Fortunately for people who have always relied on it as a store of value, the alchemists' quest has long been an utter failure, and it has remained expensive to mine it. But fans of gold forget the many gluts & crashes over the centuries.

it's simple. if you believe that US$ are utterly worthless, put your money where your mouth is and stop using them. use only bank-issued specie that is fully backed by actual physical gold reserves. why stop there? use only fully certified, assayed chunks of gold. (you can come up with your own seal to stamp on them if you like, and re-invent the coin).

the US federal debt is still quite manageable (and aside from recent mismanagement would be even moreso) and if it ever ceased to be manageable, we could inflate our way out from under it (the gold standard would close off this option). now this would have its own very costly consequences, but the often used analogy to an individual going bankrupt is absolutely, completely false. intellectually bankrupt, you might say.

\

how the Fvck are you going to say I am not going to listen to reason, just because I don't agree with you?

I've done alot of traveling in my life, and it just seems ot me that currenies that are backed by something of value, and not just market preception, do better.

that's my opinion. It's not rubbish. I have a very good understanding of how the economy works. I know first hand how munliplation of what is preceived can help or hurt a company/country.

But with all that said, you are ovbiously a very intlelligent person, and i never pass up the opprotunity to speak to someone who actually has some thought process outside of women.


LIke I said it's not necessary the 10 (not 9) trillion debt that gets to me.. it's the interest!!! a hell of alot of the money we pay in taxes goes towards that

The Euro is officially backed by precious metals - which is one reason why its value keeps rising...as opposed to the USD - which keeps dropping.

which is all I am saying. Are we headed to hell in a handbasket? No. But are we Fing up? yeah.. bad. it's nothing but a legalized ponzi scheme. Get in debt, print more money to pay off the debt, then print more money to pay off the interest for that money.. eventually the game stops

Throttle, I told you, i'm taking it a ste farther than THAT.. in 2 years i plan to be out the country. I"m that serious. It's not just the economy.. in a smaller world, i have options, which is something that the country seems to forget (or not noticed yet)

 

[wayword]

Throttle, I told you, i'm taking it a ste farther than THAT.. in 2 years i plan to be out the country. I"m that serious. It's not just the economy.. in a smaller world, i have options, which is something that the country seems to forget (or not noticed yet)

Not a bad idea.

Let's face it, this ****ry and its women HATE smart, responsible men. They label us "patriarchal" geeks and nerds. So, why not leave and let them wallow in their own single mama drama ghetto culture with the bad boys they romanticize and worship? Let's face it, this ship is taking on water while other ships around the world are rising fast...

The smart man buys low and sells high. He's the first in a good thing and the first out. He beats the crowd because he's a leader, not a follower.

That other poster is right - it's already been planned that CA, USA & Mexico are going to combine to form the North American Union using a common currency - the Amer0. And anyone who is not Mexican or Latin American will be a minority by 2050. Hablas Espanol?

 

[backbreaker]

in a world where I can get on a plane and be in japan by this time tomorrow, if not quicker (layovers, etc).. you would think that a country would act like company and try to treat it's taxpayers with more respect than is being shown.. then again, that goes to show the avg intelligence of the avg american.

aS much as I love soCal, everytime I pay taxes and turn on the TV or read a newspaper it's like getting slapped in the face

 

[Bling]

**** big government. The government should quit funding Iraq, quit funding welfare, quit funding Social Security, quit funding as much on education. Keep taxes the same. I hated Bill Clinton, but he put this country at its first balanced budget since 1962, I believe. That's the one thing Ronald Reagan couldn't accomplish.

 

[backbreaker]

I"m for SS, simply because I have grandparents who are for all intents and purposes...poor... lower class.. not ncessary on the street but they definalty live paycheck to paycheck. they need every last dime of SS and I wouldn't know what they would do without..well i do know..ask me for money,w hich i would give them, but everyone isn't as fortunate

I'm with you on education. I'm a firm believer that one who wants to be educated takes his own strides to find education. Once my child shows me he wants to be smart, or attempt to try to learn something, then I wll be more than happy to spend money on him, as much as it takes, to get the best eucation possible. just like me in Elem school. I was sent to a school in the proejcts that was close to my grandparents house so i could stay over there after school. I made straight A's my 2nd grade year, I got tested and was found to have above avg intelligence and was shipped to a different school (TAG) and was in the Talented And Gifeted program ever sense.

 

[Last Man Standing]

For the 20th time - why are we paying interest on money that we can print ourselves? This is the key! It just doesn’t make sense or dollars!!

Yes, according to military generals who have inside knowledge on 911 - this is a manufactured war pre-planned years before to avoid an economic collapse with worldwide implications among other reasons (Google Project for a New American Century (PNAC) This only prolongs the inevitable - it doesn't solve the underlying issue - USA is a military empire and no longer a economic one - this is the last throes of a dying nation - not to mention the moray corruption and decadence (Homo/Hor Matrix) which destroys the family unit and the fabric of society!!!

All this was planned and plotted so that we will lose our sovereignty as a nation and be merged with the western hemisphere and then with the world as outlined by the Council on Foreign Relations and the Royal Institute of International Affairs!!

Bush or the next president will be dictator after martial law is announced..hot off the press - read it and weep!!! http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=CHI20070521&articleId=5720

And "No" you don't need a degree in economics to understand fiscal realities - you just need a sound mind!!

 

[Cash]

Interesting discussion.

By the way.... How does a country decide to "cash in on debt", is it by selling the US bills they hold?

 

[Last Man Standing]

Interesting discussion.

By the way.... How does a country decide to "cash in on debt", is it by selling the US bills they hold?

Yes, if China and Japan demand payment on their bonds ("cash in"in the Trillions) we won't be able to pay them because we don't have the money -- there will be a war!!!!

Also - if they start selling their dollars en masse then there would be a collapse -- the only reason why they don't do this is because they are too deeply tied into our system and hey would suffer as well -- which was planned - to prevent them from doing such!

This has to do with bonds and not the interest to private individuals who print and control the money (European Bankers)!

 

[Last Man Standing]

Haha, The Matrix rabbit hole is deep - boys!!! I'm sure we'll blame the dollar collapse on something/someone else...have you noticed the new currency in the last 5 years and every retailer double-checing their validity?

Is this a scheme to blame someone else for our inflationary woes and the dollar collapse? Or is it a pretext to blame our enemies to make war? Tricky, tricky!

And BTW, the European/US Bankers/governments have been printing other countries currency to devalue their economic power and thus weaken their governments by creating inflationary riots and uprisings (economic warfare) -- people are not happy with their government when they find out that their life-savings have been wiped out overnight!!!!

http://www.alternet.org/bloggers/joshua/46471

 

[wayword]

Also - if they start selling their dollars en masse then there would be a collapse -- the only reason why they don't do this is because they are too deeply tied into our system and hey would suffer as well -- which was planned - to prevent them from doing such!

This has to do with bonds and not the interest to private individuals who print and control the money (European Bankers)!

Actually, China has already been switching its currency reserves from USD to Euros.

Although you are right, they don't want the USD to freefall either because then the US can't buy any of their exports.

Although I think the dollar can drop a LOT before they get affected. Right now the US importers are the ones making all the money. They'll import Chinese goods at "sweatshop" prices and mark them up 10X before retailing them here. So, even if the USD drops 4X or 5X, Chinese goods will still be a steal. The importers will just have to cut their wild profit margins some.

 

[FutureSpartan]

bump, RON PAUL is our man. A republican libertarian that believes in abolishing the federal reserve, the IRS, and every other "big government" program that has been screwing the American citizen over.

"Dr. Ron Paul is a 10th-term Congressman, Veteran, flight surgeon, and a medical doctor specializing in obstetrics and has delivered more than 4,000 babies. He has earned the nickname "Dr. No" for voting against any bill he believes violates the Constitution; In the words of former Treasury Secretary William Simon, Dr. Paul is the "one exception to the Gang of 535" on Capitol Hill.

Check this out:

He's never voted to raise taxes.
He's never voted for a federal restriction on gun ownership.
He voted against the Patriot Act.
He voted against regulating the Internet.
He voted against the Iraq war
NOTE: Paul is the ONLY Rep. candidate to vote against Iraq. Clinton, Biden, Hagel, Edwards, etc. voted for and has since flip flopped like John Kerry...which cost him the 2004 Election.

As if these salient points aren't enough, Ron Paul wants to:

- Bring our troops home from Iraq & end the war
- Secure our borders from terrorism
- Stop illegal immigration & no amnesty for illegal immigrants
- Get rid of the IRS for fairer taxes for you
- Limit big government in your private affairs & lives

Vote Ron Paul for President in 2008! RonPaul2008.notlong.com"

 

[Last Man Standing]

Do you guys know about this?? Trillions missing - the treasury is being raped! - as always before a fall!! This means our collapse is not too far away!!

9/10/2001: Rumsfeld says $2.3 TRILLION Missing from Pentagon

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xU4GdHLUHwU

 

[Adone]

Welcome to our new show "The Italian Situation"

 

[Adone]

Bottom line...America is still the greatest country in the world (I know I'll take s.hit for this from international members of this board...but if you can't take pride in your own country, what can you take pride in?) and you should be thanking god every waking second that you weren't born into some hellhole like Rwanda, Somalia, Bosnia, Vietnam, Mexico, the list goes on forever.

Should you also thank God that you weren't born in Monaco, Luxembourg, Switzerland, Ibiza, Canada, Australia, etc.?

C'mon, I am litterally in love with the States, but be somewhat objective when you write stuff.

 

[Adone]

America is not heading towards an economic collapse. It is simply expanding into a global level of capitalistic potential for a price. The US is not losing money in so much as it is losing sovereignty. The investments and initial pains on part of the US economy in trade agreements such as NAFTA and CAFTA are intended to eventually yield back a prosperity of resources. Much like investing in stocks, our government is investing in developing nations that are showing an interest in heading towards a fully capitalistic existence. It is this perceived expansion of trade and the ease in acquiring the availability of global resources (including labor) that is expected to become the ultimate pay back; to make many things cheaper to the US consumer.

Wal-Mart is a popular example. US consumers flock to these stores to buy affordable goods mostly Chinese in origin (though quality is another story) and it creates jobs (though the salary is insulting for a full grown adult with a family to feed). The US may be on the losing end in the short term in this particular case when it comes down to dollars and cents, but it also eases the burden of welfare cases, which in turn can ease taxes if politicians play it right. It allows the retired to create a supplemental income as well as students trying to earn their way through college. All of these things should have positive financial impacts on the US economy over the next several decades. Of course, there are just as many arguments against such a strategy as there are for it, and it almost takes the economical guru-ability of an Alan Greenspan to truly get a grasp of the realistic probabilities here, but one thing that is fairly certain is that economic collapse isn't a high probability.

Bullion is always the safest investment, but it's only worth as much as you put into it should such a collapse ever occur. You would have to sell your estate and every other asset you possess and convert it into gold before such a collapse takes place. And of course, by the time you know when that time comes, every Tom, Paul and Harry in the country will on the move to make the same investment, which will diminish your buying power.

Being that a total collapse is not the most likely scenario, I would actually advise real estate and treasury investments on the global scale to be wiser choices to bullion under the guidance of a true professional.

Bulgaria has become a popular trend for such investments recently, as it is being assimilated into the European Union and billions of dollars are being poured into the Bulgarian infrastructure to bring that country up to snuff. Real estate is at a bargain (and there are very good reasons for this, so do your homework), but those that get in now can quadruple or better their initial investments. There are opportunities like this all over the planet, and as an American your buying power in these developing countries are very strong.

If you can think financially global the same way the US economy is, then you can reassure your wealth and comfort of living without carrying around a chest full of gold bullion and a sign that reads "The End Is Near".

Man, I sent you a message about Bulgarian rents, did you receive that?

 

[CLOONEY]

in a world where I can get on a plane and be in japan by this time tomorrow, if not quicker (layovers, etc).. you would think that a country would act like company and try to treat it's taxpayers with more respect than is being shown.. then again, that goes to show the avg intelligence of the avg american.

aS much as I love soCal, everytime I pay taxes and turn on the TV or read a newspaper it's like getting slapped in the face

Japan probably saw a worse case scenario than the US will, for the past decade or more!

If Japan cut tariffs on food, the average food bill would HALF!!!!! Sound smart to you?

 

[CLOONEY]

For the 20th time - why are we paying interest on money that we can print ourselves? This is the key! It just doesn’t make sense or dollars!!

Not sure if I get what you mean here Last Man? You are not talking about printing US bills to pay off your overseas loans are you? You know the ramifications of that Im sure........

We once had a politician in Australia named "Pauline Hanson" who once said something similar!