Do we as Men expect too much?

[FLGuy]

I think we can agree that for many (the majority) of men, they're life's mission is to find one woman they can settle down with and have a family. After all, it's all a part of the "American Dream".

You know, if we lived in a different culture or time---it would work, but as long as we live in the West, we are going to have to be more pragmatic.

There are guys like Rollo T, who have a strong pimp hand and are able to make a successful marriage, but that's doesn't mean we should ignore reality in the hopes we will get lucky like Rollo because it's our destiny.

For the vast majority of men we will have multiple marriages/LTR's.

Maybe we would be happier in the culture we lived in, if internalized the idea that marriages in our times do not last for a lifetime, so we should say it's ok when a relationship dies, everything has a birth---a life---and naturally a death. Recognize it as the natural order and don't let you're life be destroyed when your LTR or marriage ends.

You know it's tough, I was raised in a Christian Church and marriage is a very big part of the teachings. From Christ's relationship with the church being a metaphor for marriage, to a bibical marriage being the only acceptable for outlet for sex.

And to even speak these thoughts to anyone in a church is viewed as heresy, lol.

Oh well, those are my thoughts for today.

 

[Warrior74]

How many right wing Christians are on their 2nd and 3rd marriage? Or have been caught cheating or being gay? Everyone knows that its all up for grabs these days, we keep up the pretense to control others. Woot. Right Wing Hypocrisy for the win!

 

[squirrels]

Our "love" in this society is selfish and covetous. We have trouble loving women without "laying claim" to them, without the notion that a woman must "belong" to us to "love" us. We can't get our head around the possibility of being in love with a woman, being in a relationship with a woman, unless it's an "exclusive" relationship. In order for a woman to have sufficient love for us, she has to not have sufficient love for anyone else.

If you put aside the personal ego involved, you start to see how TRAGIC that really is, and how silly our desire to be "special" makes us look.

 

[logic1]

Off Topic, cant help it.

BigJim,

Could you post one time without mentioning Ukraine or Russia?

 

[jafyk]

How many right wing Christians are on their 2nd and 3rd marriage? Or have been caught cheating or being gay? Everyone knows that its all up for grabs these days, we keep up the pretense to control others. Woot. Right Wing Hypocrisy for the win!

I don't think it's so much as people want to be hypocrites and control others. If the law says "You shouldn't kill" and I kill even though I agree with this law does it mean there's a fault with the law? The thing is the bible says we are in the world but not not of it. Well, christians here in the west not being able to live as the bible says is because the culture has a strong influence on those christians. It's really hard to live separately especially since as a christian one has to still mix up with the cultures that doesn't value christianity.
So, coming to the topic of marriage especially in America. It's become more acceptable for people to get divorced. As much as everyone here wants to say my family this my family that. This society tends to focus more on the individual's choice. If I don't like something in my marriage instead of working on it. Terminate it and find another one. Marriage is very hard work but sometimes people want to eat their cake and still have it.
To a certain degree I think men expect too much but not as much as women expect. I saw something interesting hanging out with married folks. My friend's wife might have been smoking with his sister. he wasn't happy about it. The wife insisted that she didn't smoke and the sister told him she didn't smoke. So, his wife starts trying to convince him she's innocent and he doesn't believe it. As an onlooker this really starts to get annoying to me. Soon she starts to cry about something (while me and another single friend of mine were there) and he goes and tries to cuddle her to try to make her feel better. So, later I ask him "well, she said she didn't smoke and your sister said she didn't" and he said he doesn't believe. So, I start to wonder to myself so if he believes this then why does he have to go and cuddle her and try to pacify her even though she's in the wrong (assuming she was lying). In other words a woman does something bad doesn't own up to it, starts crying and it's the man's job to make her feel better about it? This is what really freaked me out about marriage. One can only imagine what happens behind closed door.

 

[jophil28]

Soon she starts to cry about something (while me and another single friend of mine were there) and he goes and tries to cuddle her to try to make her feel better. So, later I ask him "well, she said she didn't smoke and your sister said she didn't" and he said he doesn't believe. So, I start to wonder to myself so if he believes this then why does he have to go and cuddle her and try to pacify her even though she's in the wrong (assuming she was lying). In other words a woman does something bad doesn't own up to it, starts crying and it's the man's job to make her feel better about it? This is what really freaked me out about marriage. One can only imagine what happens behind closed door.

Some wise poster wrote this a few years ago," Crying is a woman's most basic, and most juvenile, of all her manipulations. "

Apparently the husband in the story above does not understand that.

 

[jafyk]

I know that being in a relationship is the best experience to know about a relationship. Thing is I'm not in one but it suprises me that people don't read; and when they do they don't read important stuff that haev to do with relationship. Yea, Jophil I read a book that talks about women crying etc. So, even though I've never been married or in that many relationships are most people I know a lot of these things. I also read somewhere about guys apologizing for things they didn't do etc, lol.

 

[Jitterbug]

I think overall, it's the opposite: Western men expect too little of women and as a result, get a sh1tty deal most of the time. Just ask men from other countries what they expect from their women.

 

[TheAsianLoverReturns]

I think overall, it's the opposite: Western men expect too little of women and as a result, get a sh1tty deal most of the time. Just ask men from other countries what they expect from their women.

Yeah western men of past generations screwed it up for the rest of the world.

I was born in the U.S., but my parents are from Korea. Men rule with an iron fist. Now that's changing, men in Korea are getting p*ssifed and women are getting stronger.

In a 100 years, there will be no real men left.

 

[st_99]

Our "love" in this society is selfish and covetous. We have trouble loving women without "laying claim" to them, without the notion that a woman must "belong" to us to "love" us. We can't get our head around the possibility of being in love with a woman, being in a relationship with a woman, unless it's an "exclusive" relationship. In order for a woman to have sufficient love for us, she has to not have sufficient love for anyone else.

If you put aside the personal ego involved, you start to see how TRAGIC that really is, and how silly our desire to be "special" makes us look.

the old me would say.. you're crazy. the latter me would say.. just go with the flow, F*_K it, just ride the wave. Relax and
go with the flow.

 

[Warrior74]

Our "love" in this society is selfish and covetous. We have trouble loving women without "laying claim" to them, without the notion that a woman must "belong" to us to "love" us. We can't get our head around the possibility of being in love with a woman, being in a relationship with a woman, unless it's an "exclusive" relationship. In order for a woman to have sufficient love for us, she has to not have sufficient love for anyone else.

If you put aside the personal ego involved, you start to see how TRAGIC that really is, and how silly our desire to be "special" makes us look.

LOL WUT? Desire to be special? Are you daft or new to earth? Do you know how relations between men and women have worked since the dawn of time? Now evaluate your stupid statements through the lens of that ardent and very real fact of man/woman historical relations. That being said, there is no need for jealousy or having the desire to control others anymore, only because its unatainable for the majority of men.

Why just last night I was talking to a 7 who told me, I work two jobs because I don't want to have to be nice to a man. I'd rather just be me. I know plenty of women who have to be nice because he pays all the bills, or they want money or something.

Take from that what you will.

 

[jophil28]

I think overall, it's the opposite: Western men expect too little of women and as a result, get a sh1tty deal most of the time. Just ask men from other countries what they expect from their women.

This ^^ from my southern nephew.
Wise words , Jitter.

 

[Jitterbug]

Thanks Uncle Jophil.

It's good to know about sex relations in other countries, or even from people like you from previous generations, so that we young ones don't just automatically assume that the crap being offered from modern Western women is all we can get.

On topic: you only have to look at dating site profiles (in the West) to see that it's the women listing their expectations of men while the men hardly list any expectation they have for women, but what they have to offer instead.

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

Just for the record, I married at 28 and this was after about 12 years of "experiencing" all kinds of women from virgins to MILFs to BPD psychotics, to party girls and even the "Good Girls". I've gone through LTRs, STRs, ONSs, and LDRs, I've had GFs and FBs. I've been an AFC and if we're categorizing things, I'd call myself a lesser Alpha too.

I've been a husband for 14 years and a father for 12. I'm not so prideful that I'd ignore my wife's input and observations in my decision making, but I'm equally not so foolish to think that women aren't slaves to their own emotions, impulse and insecurities.

I put all this out there not to gloss myself, but to clear up a bit of my own legend. While I'm sure an amount of good fortune had something to do with it, I'm also keenly aware that my relationship with Mrs. Tomassi is due in no small part to my being a good student of life and applying the lessons I've learned. I think FLGUY misses a key element in his understanding - experience teaches harsh, but it teaches best.

On the contrary I've seen how men, time and again, fall into the same, very predictable traps laid out for them because they lacked the experience to avoid them. They willfully avoided the best teacher - experience - due to any number of insecurities that prompted them to rationalization and excuses that sounded like virtues, only to find themselves compromising their ambitions and desires. Worry less about men becoming jaded and developing unrealistic expectations, and worry more about men voluntarily limiting themselves and settling for a comfortable compromise.

Ignorance is not bliss. Once you're unplugged from the Matrix there's no going back.

 

[Kailex]

I'll second Rollo in what he said:

Worry less about men becoming jaded and developing unrealistic expectations, and worry more about men voluntarily limiting themselves and settling for a comfortable compromise.

A lot of men don't get the point that this is one of the reasons why they should go out with many women before they even consider settling down. Nowadays, men just want their solution NOW, they want everything NOW, and what the younger men need to realize is that you can't have the end result NOW without going through years of hardship, mistakes, and experience. There is absolutely no substitute for that. A lot of posters here want that ultimate solution to go from AFC to Alpha in just seconds.

That belief is naive and is erroneous.

Nothing substitutes actually getting a oneitis at some point, or having a relationship go south, or being rejected during cold approaches. You live, you learn, you improve.

Men want threads on how to spot a quality woman without realizing that what's quality for me, might not be for them. It's all subjective. Sure, people can learn from my experiences, but they can't really apply to them or relate to them unless they make the mistakes themselves.

Without that experience of dating women, men have nothing to go by, while all the time women have one basic need to go by and branch out from there: A sense of security. It all stems from there, and it's a sad state of affairs when most men just want a hot woman without taking into consideration any of the other qualities that would normally red flag her to most of us.

Men don't ask for much because once they see someone they deem good enough, they want to lock her into a "lifetime contract", when they don't realize that the lifetime contract applies to them, but not necessarily the female.

Sometimes the correct question isn't "How do I avoid this situation?", but instead "How do I learn from this situation to avoid making the same mistake in the future?". Sometimes it's necessary to get burned by the flame to know that the fire truly is hot.

 

[vatoloco]

I expect an equal partner.

That's all.

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

I expect a complimentary partner.

That's all.

Egalitarian equality is a feminist pipe dream.

 

[zekko]

Why just last night I was talking to a 7 who told me, I work two jobs because I don't want to have to be nice to a man.

Yeesh, is it THAT much of a chore to try to be nice to someone? I thought it was just a matter of common courtesy.
Sounds like a red flag to me.

 

[squirrels]

LOL WUT? Desire to be special? Are you daft or new to earth? Do you know how relations between men and women have worked since the dawn of time? Now evaluate your stupid statements through the lens of that ardent and very real fact of man/woman historical relations.

That's the problem...people can't see past tradition.

I personally couldn't give a flying f*ck at how "things have worked since the dawn of time". I'm not impressed by people who insist on doing things a certain way for no reason other than, "that's the way they've always been done".

Sure, it works. But I wouldn't say that it's necessarily "enlightened". I am surprised how possessive most men are on here about women. They're ready to go out and bang as many girls as possible, but when they find one they like, they suddenly become very jealous and possessive, ready to crucify the girl for being a "slvt", "wh0re", or "low-quality woman" if she doesn't bow down and kiss his arse, or if she doesn't want to slip on the ring and take herself off the market right away.

It's a vicious double-standard driven by ego insecurity. It's not enough to be loved by women...women have to love them MORE than anyone else. It's exactly what I said...a "desire to be special". An EXPECTATION of being special in a girl's eyes, just by virtue of some cheap verbal "commitment to be exclusive".

I know it, I've felt it. I'd love to think every girl I've ever dated or hooked up with thinks of me as "the best", that when she's out with the next guy, she's wishing she was still with me. I know, though, that this is silly.

Truly "special" relationships aren't a result of you loving or caring for someone more than another person just by virtue of "who they are". This is what people SEEK when they're "looking for a relationship", but it's not what relationships are built on, which is WHY relationships in today's society CRUMBLE so easily.

Truly "special" relationships aren't the result of finding a perfect woman (or a perfect MAN if you're a girl). They're the result of shared experiences over time. If people would just look for someone they enjoy spending time around, the "relationship" would develop over time.

Instead, everyone acts like this whole dating game is some kind of scientific equation..."you have this and this and this, and don't have that and that, then you're 'quality'...otherwise you're 'not quality'".

And that's why this whole game is stupid. And why expecting so much of anyone, man or woman, from the get-go is stupid. Not only stupid, but arrogant, to believe you are one-half of a miracle, and demanding, to expect someone else to be the other half of that miracle, and then possessive to expect to OWN the result, for two people in a "relationship" to expect to OWN each other, to the point where THEY can decide what the other does and does not do in life.

I know that's how people have "always done it". And that's why I continue to say, "people are stupid".

Now it's not a problem that people don't understand it. It's worked forever with people NOT understanding it, as you've pointed out. The problem is people who DON'T understand it but CLAIM that they DO. THOSE are the people screwing it up. It's like an 8 year old who just learned how to turn a wrench and suddenly tries to rebuild a carburetor.

 

[Warrior74]

FAIL. I think you are the one who believes its special. If I'm a farmer and you come stealing my crops, how do you not get shot in the ass? Are my crops special? Is my ego saying my crops are better than the next man's crops? Redic. Its just what you do, otherwise you will starve. Men protect their territory. Hell I might think my little bros a nerd, but I'm not gonna let you pick on him, and I might know my girls a slvt, but she's mine so back off pal. And I might disagree with my father, but don't put your hands on him. All of that 'special soul mate crap', is NEW to humanity. We have just been following our nature for centuries.