Divorced Women and The Baggage They Carry

[Sinistar]

I have ignored Wyldfire for a long while. But lately, I realized that she is either a troll or simply is using this place to market herself or justify her life. I cannot ignore that when it comes to serious advice issues (other times, I simply ignore her - like the picture thread she created and the other thread she created for Rollo in the other room-).

That's NOT a good thing when we have young men literally getting ready to make LIFE CHANGING decisions and they go to the trouble (by putting their pride aside) to post in here asking for advice. SERIOUS advice.

I don't expect a 41 year old divorcee that has made all the wrong decisions and have her share of kids to give solid advice to Frank. Her advice is going to be self-serving. And that is the problem. The REAL problem.

And then she has the gall to CRITISIZE your or any other men's advice that does not match hers by patronizing us with the "many men fail to see" crap.
05-24-2007 09:48 AM

...I couldn't agree more. One of the fundamental concepts of learning the DJ way is the realization that advice from women regarding men OR women is at best an emotionally biased input. Not good for guys (great for women). And every so often you stumble across a woman that claims to be "like one of the guys" or "I can detach from the way women think" ... whatever ... that is a ruse. In my experience, every single woman I've met who claims to be more guy-like, understand guys, etc is your baseline, casebook AW with a broken upbringing, grossly distorted set of value systems and inside-out understanding of healthy relationships.

Accepting advice from a woman w/r to men and their relationships with women is ususually sign that a man is hoping to hear what wants to hear OR that he is unwilling to hear what will really help him because it just might shock his belief system.

I think it is either a cop out (an AFC cop out at that) or simply the inability to find good women in their 20s. Fact is...the worst possible age group to get into a SERIOUS relationship (or any for that matter) is with women 35+. Too much baggage, divorce, etc.

...great material here. In my opinion, younger guys (lets say 20's) that are seeking older women (lets say 30+) are simply afraid. FEAR. Fear of rejection by someone they see as holding more value/power than they do (ie the younger HB receiving all kinds of attention). So what do they do, they set their sights on easier targets. The easiest target, and older divorced women with kids followed closely by and older divorced women with no kids.

And why is this an easier target? Lots of reason.

First of all, rejection from a single mommy is perceived to be easier than from a younger hottie. Next, it's perceived to easier because she is assumed to have good relationship and communication skills. Throw in the fact she may already have notable assets (ie home, money, etc). And has already learned how to have and raise a family.

Re-read that paragraph again. What it is really saying is that the beta who goes this route [expecting a serious relationship] is afraid. FEAR. Fear to lead, provide, take charge and create his own destiny.

The younger DJ's (not to be confused with PUA's) out there aren't afraid to try things (ie rejection), take charge and lead. They understand the older single mommy is at best a FB to tide them over until higher value, younger, more desireable object of interest comes along.

The only thing more sad than seeing a good guy going down the path (often repeatedly) of entering into LTR's with women many years his senior with kids and strings of failed relationships is ... the person who encourging him to follow this path in the 1st place.

 

[Vulpine]

Blahblahblahflip-flopwishywashcontradictingdrivel, etc.... nevermind all that: The best predictor for someones future behaviour is their past behaviour.

I agree!

Women and their "advice"... tssss.

You go on and on with the "you can, here's what I'd do, it could work, good luck" crap, the throw all the previous text in the toilet with a final statement that prooves the rest gibberish.

The best predictor for someones future behaviour is their past behaviour.

You want to hook up with an older divorced mommy of two? Why? Seriously, why? So you can have two kids with her and have her divorce you?

If you prefer someone a bit older, someone who had a cordial divorce and is a good parent may actually be a good choice. This would be a calm, mature person with good values and self discipline.

...who fvcked up.

GOOD VALUES?!!!! ARE YOU ON FVCKING CRACK?!!! SELF DISCIPLINE?!!! YOU HAVE TO BE FVCKING KIDDING!!!!!

How the fvck do you figure getting married, having two kids, then getting a divorce equates to "calm, mature, with good values and self discipline"?

Calm? Maybe.
Mature? Not likely.
Good values? Divorce? Hello? Broken home?
Self discipline? Dude, kids and divorce? Seriously.

What you are saying is like saying dating a filthy toothless bum on the street might be a good idea because they will probably be calm, mature, and have good values and self discipline.

THEY'RE HOMELESS BUMS FOR CRISSAKES! Bums that lost their jobs, homes, and teeth! WTF!

:kick: :cuss: :box:

A woman, ever pushing the Dr. Philosophies of the femanist matrix. Yeah! It's wonderful to date fvckups! They'll be "high quality" and good people! Shame on you for not accepting a woman for being a fvckup - she's wonderful on the inside!

THIS is the problem I have with women posting here! On the surface, many of the posts appear to be "helpful advice". But being that the advice is coming from a woman, if you look a little deeper, the "advice" is promoting the exact things that we come here from to retrain ourselves NOT to believe. We come here to learn that women's "helpful advice" is the very reason we came here! It's hurtful advice: counter-productive and distracting from the purpose of the site. It's women's attempts to plug men back into the matrix we are trying to break out of. Hey, if you want to be a femanized version of a man that women aren't attracted to, by all means, take the advice of a woman.

Frank, call a spade a spade. Did you get married, have two kids, and get divorced? No? Then you aren't compatible. Plain and simple: She's a fvckup. Don't date fvckups if you aren't one yourself.

She fvcked up. And, there's just no telling how bad she fvcked up her ex-husband's life and will be fvcking up her kids' lives. And here you are wondering if you should give her a crack at fvcking up your life too?

Seriously, dude, stop it.

 

[Flirt-o-rama]

How the fvck do you figure getting married, having two kids, then getting a divorce equates to "calm, mature, with good values and self discipline"?

People who have a cordial divorce are generally calm and mature, people who raise their children well and put them before their genitals have good values and self discipline. Having children was not a wrong choice if she was married to a decent guy at the time. Sometimes people grow apart after having children and if the marriage is not working, a calm divorce would be a better choice. If the OP prefers women who are older and have children, he should avoid those who never married but did have children aswell as those who had painful, dramaridden divorces. That pretty much leaves women who had a clean divorce.

I'm not arguing that divorced folks make better partners than single, childless people. Personally, I don't care to date divorced men or fathers, but then again I don't have a thing for big age differences.

 

[WestCoaster]

Men should focus on the TIME in their lives. I've never understood why women can freak out about not having a husband at age 22 and panic about not having a kid at 25, but if a man decides that the TIME in his life is important, he's considered a chauvanist or a womanizer.

The key time -- which I didn't realize at that specific time -- in a man's life is age 20-30. This is really an important development time in a man's life, more so than even his teen's even.

In this important decade it's where a man should go to college or trade school, or be developing his career. This is crucial. I've known many men to forego grad school, law school, med school, even re-locate for a huge job promotion because of a woman. A friend of mine in his 20's moved to a dink town and substitute taught for nearly a decade instead of working on his career or traveling. Now at nearly 50 -- with the divorce of the woman he forego things for behind him, and two separations and a near divorce later -- the guy is trying to go to grad school and build some kind of life. He's not unusual, there are tons of men who learn that tough life lesson.

Also in this 20-30 decade -- and this is frowned upon by the likes of Wyldfire, Oprah, Dr. Phil, E-Harmony, every church leader out there -- is when a man should be playing the field like no tomorrow. I don't mean just going around banging different women (though I'm not against it) as Wyldfire constantly insists.

I'm talking about finding what you want in a partner. There is absolutely no way a MAN can find out what he wants in a partner unless he dates several women. I'm serious. Yeah, exceptions to the rule ... my parents have been married forever, didn't date much before they married, they also grew up decades ago when the options and attitudes were different.

You don't know what kind of car you want until you test-drive a few. You shop around for houses to buy, shoes to buy, colleges to attend, food to eat, friends you choose, computers to buy, places to travel. You look at your OPTIONS and make the best choice possible.

We're told people aren't options or things to be bought, only partically correct. You don't test-drive people, but you should be wary and careful at what will be the most important decision of your life: whom you marry.

So why pass it off as something casual -- like 99.9 percent of most people in this country? Most have no clue why they married the other person other than that "they made me laugh" (not a good reason to get married) or "we had good sex" (again, not a good reason to get married).

Whenever I talk of what I just posted outside of this board, people consider my beliefs radical, unusual, and sexist. My friends in bad marriages agree with me.

So we can let our Romeo at the ripe age of 29 go down the single mommy route, forgoing his options, locking himself into a world he eventually won't want. Or we can encourage him to look at the options right in front of him.

I think he should look at his options.

 

[Flirt-o-rama]

I'm talking about finding what you want in a partner. There is absolutely no way a MAN can find out what he wants in a partner unless he dates several women. I'm serious. Yeah, exceptions to the rule ...

Actually, I agree with this. You see the same among women. Most who married before 25 also divorce early. On the other hand, when both partners are over 35, there is the fertility issue and the pickings become slimmer as more people are getting married. People have a hard time estimating timing and often miss out on either single life, a good match or having healthy children.

At 29 OP could either settle down or date more depending on his background. He was not talking about proposing or anything, so I assume he is dating untill he finds what he likes. Anyway, doorbell is ringing and I'm out!

 

[Vulpine]

If the OP prefers women who are older and have children, he should avoid those who never married but did have children aswell as those who had painful, dramaridden divorces. That pretty much leaves women who had a clean divorce.

I'm not arguing that divorced folks make better partners than single, childless people. Personally, I don't care to date divorced men or fathers, but then again I don't have a thing for big age differences.

What you have a "thing for" is irrelevant; whether or not you date divorced men or fathers is irrelevant.

For you, a WOMAN, telling a MAN what he SHOULD do is ridiculous. Read the DJ Bible and you will see how jacked your advice is. Furthermore, you'll likely learn what a MAN should be and perhaps even kick yourself for thinking otherwise.

"If the OP prefers women who are older and have children", he should change his preferences, because they are ulitmately self-destructive. He SHOULD NOT try to justify his skewed preferences with emotions like a woman would.

Instead, he should use logic, like a MAN would. And, logic says that preferring to go to the used car lot and picking up a high-mileage lemon is foolish when he could go to the new car lot next door and pick up a dependable ride that will last for many worry free & hassle free years. The thing about used cars is that you never know how the previous owner treated them.

Dating a divorced woman with kids is like working the crank on a jack-in-the-box. You don't know when jack is going to pop out, but you KNOW that little fvcker is going to jump out and freak you right the fvck out - more than you imagined he would've. And, if you established some trust, invested some time, and built a relationship with the jack-in-the-box, maybe set a cup full of future and finance on the box or a handful of kids on there... when jack pops out, sh!t goes flying. Duh. You knew it was coming!

Best to not gamble with that little timebomb, it's likely to leave you broke-down and stranded on the the side of the highway.

 

[Latinoman]

. You see the same among women. Most who married before 25 also divorce early. On the other hand, when both partners are over 35, there is the fertility issue and the pickings become slimmer as more people are getting married. People have a hard time estimating timing and often miss out on either single life, a good match or having healthy children.

A woman ranging ages 26-32 is the equivalent of a man ranging ages 30-37.

Marrying a woman that is 26-32 is perfect because typically those women know what they want and they still fertile and generally with less baggage.

There is a reason why nature start hindering us sexually when we start reaching certain age. And there is a reason why most men lose MOST (if not all) of their erection way past their 60s and 70s and why women start losing their sexual desire (due to menopause) in their late 40s and 50s. Biologically speaking a man in his 60s can potentially match very well with a woman in her 60s.

Dating at age 29 women that are in their 20s...will help him prepare better. That way, when he reach his 30s and decide to marry a woman...he knows which one in that age group (20s) is the BEST POSSIBLE selection.

 

[mzilla2]

To the OP,

At my age I don't exclude divorced women, to me it's really often no worse than them having LTR ex-boyfriends... But ones with kids however I do pass on...

My opinion, if you dig her, she handles her Ex appropriately (i.e.: he's "invisible" to you), the kid issue is OK by you and is managed by her in a similar context to the Ex, and she treats you well, like a woman with a high IL, and you are having FUN, then sure.

If not, or you aren't having fun, then NEXT.

 

[Vulpine]

To the OP,

At my age I don't exclude bums off the street, to me it's really often no worse than them having no home... But ones without teeth however I do pass on...

My opinion, if you dig her, she handles her lack of home appropriately (i.e.: you don't see the box and/or newspapers), the no teeth issue is OK by you and is managed by her in a similar context to the homelessness, and she treats you well, like a woman with a high IL, and you are having FUN, then sure.

If not, or you aren't having fun, then NEXT.

Again, trying to justify and rationalize a poor decision. :nono:

Edit: this is actually sort of fun... like mad libs!

To the OP,

At my age I don't exclude obese women, to me it's really often no worse than them having a muffin top... But ones with genital warts however I do pass on...

My opinion, if you dig her, she handles her muffin top appropriately (i.e.: wears baggy clothes), the genital warts issue is OK by you and is managed by her in a similar context to the obesity, and she treats you well, like a woman with a high IL, and you are having FUN, then sure.

If not, or you aren't having fun, then NEXT.

 

[WestCoaster]

It's all about his age

I'm not against dating divorcees or divorcees with kids, I do it regularly. I'm more than a decade older than Frank here. At 29, I dated those women and now deeply regret it. It's about the TIME in his life. At 29 he shouldn't be doing this ... when you have a "2" in front of your age, that gives you a license of freedom and a license to date 18-30. As you get older -- trust me -- you'll have a fairly large market of heavily-baggaged women.

Right now he should be getting a minimum of two dates a week with two different women, and 6-10 dates a month with at least five different women ... with hopefully a dash of sex thrown in. And I'm serious. And this playful activity should take a back seat to that career he's working on.

I'm not sure why I keep coming back trying to transform young men, they rarely listen and too many people defend their stupid actions of partnering up with baggaged women.

 

[WestCoaster]

OK, here's a classic scenario. When I moved to the God-forsaken dump that I'm living in and trying to move out of, I foolishly joined E-Harmony (i.e., E-screw-me-over) ... here's the story on one of my "matches."

Well, other than being a single mommy, sonny boy was conceived at a conference. Sonny's daddy lives in Cali and had no contact with single mommy after the one-night stand. Mommy sends "daddy" photos of the kid every year, no response. She has some dream that he'll contact her. He won't.

All I could think of is if I got serious with the gal (and I didn't have plans to, I wasn't very sexually attracted to her) was introducing her to family and friends, this is XXX and her son, then the usual follow-up questions about her "ex" (not really an ex, but you get the idea) and then they connect the dots and find out sonny boy came from meaningless fling. I don't seek approval from family and friends all the time, but I wasn't very excited about that possibility.

Oh yeah, before sonny was born, she also was married and got a divorce. I bailed on that after too many dates ... trust me, there are millions of women in the U.S. like this. Stay away.

 

[blueguy]

...you were kidding right? Someone really liked the the blue pill.

Yes, it was a joke. I think it is a self-esteem issue with frank throwing in the towel.

Frank, you are even admitting this yourself in your first post. Don't give up already. And wyldfire is obviously spreading self-beneficial propganda which would ultimately rob your opportunities at life. Another thing is that if you hook up with wyldire, she will eventually drop you cold in the dust. You will have served a purpose for her short-term, and due to your lack of experience, maturity and security in life, you will eventually have nothing left to provide her. Don't let that happen to you.

So, she knows EXACTLY what it takes to lure a younger and more inexperience man into her web. Once you are hooked...you are screw. You can potentially waste 1-5 years in that situation.

YES... Don't believe him? Read it from her own lips:

EDIT: Ahhh whatever, can't find her other post.

Older women aren't the answer.

 

[Frank2500]

Re: Fear of Rejection is Not the Reason Why

Folks, I just want to thank each of you who took time to respond to this post and I truly appreciate it. I had no clue that it was going to get that many hits and responses, and that was truly encouraging. I would like to plead however, to some people on this forum, that they cease to make assumptions as to why others make certain decisions. I forget who the original poster was, but someone responding to the post suggested that the reason why I recently began focusing on older women was because I'm afraid of rejection. Let me assure that poster and everyone else that this is absoultely not the case. Rejection, just as it is in several other aspects of life, is a part of dating and I'm not intimidated by rejection at all. Attempting to woo a woman is no different than applying for a job. You don't get every job that you apply for. When I see a woman that I feel genuinely attracted to, I go up and talk to her.



Now, let me address the issue of women in my age group. It is often said that the experiences a man has growing up (especially in college and with dating) will shape his life. Maybe some of you might not be aware that I am originally from Central Africa and where I come from, common courtesy is always a big deal. Now, don't get me wrong. I've been living in the U.S. now for almost 12 years, so I'm pretty familiar with the culture, especially when it comes to dating. If I have found myself pursuing older women, my primary reason has been frustration and disappointment at the manner in which an overwhelming majority of women my age and below behave. And many times, I just don't feel like having to deal with that crap anymore. I can't count how many times I've met women within the 20-29 age range who are so rude, arrogant and insensitive that they make themselves so unbelievably approachable when you try to approach them in the first place. Even a common "hi" to them gets you a frown, a condescending look from head to toe, or simply no response, and the woman just keeps on walking. You even hold doors for them and you seldom get even a faint "thank you."



The key with dating is that you need to have the motivation, a reason to continue pursuing women in a particular age group. What am I supposed to do if most women in my age group, throughout my undergraduate years in college and even now having completed graduate school keep on playing games and simply won't give me a chance? I'm tired of meeting women who give fake numbers or who give you the right phone numbers and then suddenly tell you when you call them up that they can't go out with you because they actually have boyfriends. Yet, when you approached them, they didn't say that to you, and they knew what you were after. I'm fared up of meeting women who give you e-mail addresses and don't respond when you try to get in touch with them. I'm tired of the "I need a bad boy/I need a thug crap" etc. I'm tired of women who think they need to be with men who would abuse them and exploit them and treat them like dirt.



Now, I may be wrong, but each of us have our own personal experiences, and I can only speak for mine. And based on these, women in this country between the ages of 20-29, especially those within the 20-25 year old range, have been the most superficial, insensitive and cold-hearted people I have ever met. Some of you are reading my post wrongly. I often have no clue that these older women have kids when I met them. Sure, you could blame me for not preparing myself for that possibility, but when I do meet these people, I often have no clue about their personal lives yet. And sure, I've had a negative experience with an older woman before. Some of you may have read about an older woman I developed oneitis for a long time ago at my gym. She took advantage of my feelings, exploited them, and I got hurt pretty bad.


So let me ask this question: Why should I continue to kill myself over women 20-29 years of age when they seem to be the least receptive group to me? When I have to continually deal with lies and superficial games and people not being willing to accept me for who I am? Why should I have to continue putting myself through all that pain?



It's only now that a lof of these women 20-29 years old are starting to give me attention, because they see a muscular man with huge arms and a big chest, tall and huge. Back in the day, a lot of these women didn't give me the time of day. I know such women when I see them.


I'm just not the kind of guy who finds it easy to do one-night stands with a whole bunch of women or to use them just for sex. On the other hand, I have heeded the warnings many of you have given me in your responses regarding divorced women with children. I got a couple of text messages already from the 32 year old divorced woman with two kids yesterday. We did text each other back and forth, but I remember her mentioning when we talked on the phone that she's interested in romance and when she dates, she wants to be the only woman...that she likes to be told if there is more than one woman. She said that most of the guys she was with cheated on her, and that her ex-husband was a man who saw their relationship as one in which she had to take care of him...that he often would just sit at home doing nothing and she told him she wasn't having it.



The point I want to make is I'm not by any means viewing myself as a rescuer. I'm tired of the games, I'm tired of the countless number of heartless, insensitive and superficial people out there in the dating game, and I just want to be with someone for once who acts normal-someone for once who responds positively. I'm not ruling women 20-29 out, but right now, I feel as if I need to have a reason to continue pursuing them.

 

[Wyldfire]

Frank...pursue whomever you want to pursue. Keep an eye out for signs of the traits a woman has...the ones you like and the ones you don't like. If you meet someone whose traits you like and you want to pursue them and doing so makes you happy...then just do what makes you happy. Doing that will serve you much better than taking advice from people who not only don't know you, but also don't even seem to be reading what your wrote in your original post.

Good luck...

 

[WestCoaster]

Fair enough, your experience isn't mine. After years and years in the working world, and dating working and older women, and having every game played to me by what I expected to be mature, stable women ... they've been through divorcees, so they wouldn't cheat/like bad boys/lie/be rude, etc., right?! Wrong. I've had enough.

This is where my experience differs greatly. In my late 30's, I bit the bullet to change careers and went back to grad school. I started dating women much younger than me -- a few too young -- and it was a real eye-opener. College undergrads were outstanding. (College grad students? Man-haters mostly.)

Freaking 24-28 year olds were great to be with, didn't play games, weren't worried about the age difference (well, a few were, but weren't rude about it), and it was like my entire perspective changed. They weren't BITTER about ex-boyfriends or ex-husbands, dates didn't consist of trying to find babysitters. Man, that was a great two years.

Of course I fell for a grad student closer to my age and what did I get? Total basket case, had been married, mentally unstable, played men like fiddles (she was gorgeous and knew it) and knew a lot of games. After exhausting that, I gravitated back to the youngsters before graduating and moving out of town.

Honestly, I shouldn't be shocked at 35+ women who play games, use men, lie, and cheat, but I still am. They just aren't humbled or learn their lessons ... and they do a lot of this game playing right in front of their kids.

To each his own, if you find a good woman who is older and is kind to you, have at it.

I've had my fill of 40/20's -- that's 40-year olds who act 20.

 

[Flirt-o-rama]

"If the OP prefers women who are older and have children", he should change his preferences, because they are ulitmately self-destructive. He SHOULD NOT try to justify his skewed preferences with emotions like a woman would.

If there was no drama, and the woman raised her kids right, why would that situation destroy him? If he does not find young women attractive, he won't enjoy dating one or being married to one. I don't like the taste of onions, maybe I could be conditioned to like them but why would I do that? I can see the point of giving someone a try, but he mentioned having dates 20somethings and not feeling a bond. The OP is not a little boy who never had experiences with women, he is a fully grown man, capable of taking what he finds useful in a set of advice, considering the source and forming his own opinion. He does not need to be validated by women or men posters as they are not the ones who hae to live with his decisions. He can decide what sort of woman he desires to be with and whether he is ready to marry her.

Anyway, I'm 26 and childless, so if I was after something I'd tell the OP to buy flowers for 20something women.

 

[Vulpine]

If there was no drama, and the woman raised her kids right, why would that situation destroy him? If he does not find young women attractive, he won't enjoy dating one or being married to one. I don't like the taste of onions, maybe I could be conditioned to like them but why would I do that? I can see the point of giving someone a try, but he mentioned having dates 20somethings and not feeling a bond. The OP is not a little boy who never had experiences with women, he is a fully grown man, capable of taking what he finds useful in a set of advice, considering the source and forming his own opinion. He does not need to be validated by women or men posters as they are not the ones who hae to live with his decisions. He can decide what sort of woman he desires to be with and whether he is ready to marry her.

Anyway, I'm 26 and childless, so if I was after something I'd tell the OP to buy flowers for 20something women.

*golf clap* You're a 26 y.o. childless woman; want a cookie?

Maybe damn sailors didn't like the taste of oranges, but they conditioned themselves to choke them down - otherwise they'd die of scurvy. They didn't cry: "ARRRGH! I be hatin' the oranges! Over the side with the lot of 'em!"

Ok, Wyldfire II, time for a little hand-holding:

If there was no drama, and the woman raised her kids right, why would that situation destroy him?

What you do now is go back and actually read the thread. This whole topic is about the baggage that would destroy him. Don't ask me, look for yourself. If you can't find it in this thread, run a search for "baggage" and you'll have all your questions answered.

And, if you can't understand what you are reading, go read the DJ Bible. In fact, you should have before posting advice. Otherwise, you'll come off as an AW. Don't know what an AW is? Look it up: it's you. Posting in a room called "The Mature Man"?

 

[Flirt-o-rama]

Thanks for the offer of the cookie but I will pass.

The concern the OP expressed was about the ex coming over with a gun. I'd say the level of drama in the breakup would be a decent indication of whether she may have had a crazy man, as is the priority she puts on keeping her children safe. I actually wonder if divorced women have violent exes more often than others.

 

[decades]

you are attracted to the wrong kind of women. work on your game so you can feel confident with healthy available undamaged women closer to your own age. Beware when you feel a "connection" that soon with a woman. It means you are headed for Disaster.

 

[STR8UP]

Right now he should be getting a minimum of two dates a week with two different women, and 6-10 dates a month with at least five different women ... with hopefully a dash of sex thrown in. And I'm serious. And this playful activity should take a back seat to that career he's working on.

That's like a full time freakin job! Personally I wouldn't have the time or patience.

You are right though.....guys need to be focusing on THEMSELVES and playing the field. I was totally focused on my wealth building throughout most of my 20's, but I wish I would have spent more time playing the field rather than playing a serial boyfriend.