Chick withholding sex- need some perspective

[Mr. Me]

And the worst part about it is that as of tonite, it has officially turned into a "negotiation". I don't see how I can put this back on track.

The problem with advising you, with all due respect, is that I get the impression that you only listen to what you want to hear and argue against everything else.

It's a relief to hear someone who knows his sh!t tell me I did the right thing.

See what I mean?

If I had sex for every time I heard a woman say "but no sex! Agreed?", then I'd... wait a second, I HAVE had sex for every time I've heard that! In fact when I hear that, I know I'm getting laid.

It's a variation of them not wanting to seem like a slut.

You could've ignored it instead of focusing on it and by focusing on it you only made it bigger and bigger.

You want to know how to put it on track? AGREE with her. That's right. Oh, it's not giving away yourself as a man - it's just acting! You can do it!

It will DISARM her. It will DIFFUSE her. "Babe, I was thinking about you said... you're right. Yes, when you're right, you're right. No sex. It wouldn't be in our best interests. You stay here and it's not like we need to have sex or anything. That's cool."

Then come the night she stays, feeling totally at ease, she'll be slinking her body over yours and you'll be there thinking of baseball while she gets tremendously frustrated until finally... you get to slide into third base.

 

[STR8UP]

Of course the woman does not want to look like a sl*t, so she is putting down these rules "for the record". You need to cooly take down her statements and note them for the file, so that later on (after you have had sex) you both can agree that she is not a sl*t. "It just happened" "We didn't plan this"....etc.

I would normally agree, however, in this case the vibe I was getting was that she wants a RELATIONSHIP and she wants to feel like it's "legit" so she wants to "start over". It's fair enough for a chick to want to be able to feel like she's "doing the right thing", but it automatically puts the guy in that position of weakness that I refuse to be in. If my gut weren't screaming at me that I was getting shoved in between a rock and a hard place it might be different, but when my "little man" starts talking these days, I pay close attention.

You could even push it further and say "we'll take it slowly for the next few months". At this point she'll probably wonder where your other sources of sex are coming from and get attracted even more.

This is a good point. Maybe I'm just getting older and don't WANT to have to deal with any BS and have to "play along".

The point is, no girl wants to be prodded and *convinced* to have sex, especially on MSN. There needs to be some magic into it. And if the girl is reluctant to do it now, then you need to calibrate that and realize that you have not done a good enough job to make her feel comfortable. First you get comfort, then you get rapport, and then you'll get attraction, followed by sex. You can't use logic to jump straight to attraction.

Cesare Cardinali

You are right on the money, the big thing that sticks with me though is the fact that all I have to do is think back to the first time we had sex, the look she had on her face, I knew she was smitten. She even offered to cook me breakfast the next morning.

To go from that to "I want to take things slow", it just doesn't sit with me!

And the thing is, I KNOW she wants nothing more than to have a LTR with me. She was feeling me out the other day to make her final decision about where to go to school. This makes it THAT MUCH WORSE. I'm not gonna be led around like a bull with a ring in his nose. Was this simply a formality? Maybe. But to know that she's into me makes it all that much worse that she's trying to set the frame. Maybe I could have played along and gotten fukked six ways to sunday next weekend, but man, I just can't bring myself to play that game to try to find out.

 

[STR8UP]

You did the right thing Str8up.

Wow, Good points on both sides. I am surprised that there is such a split as to whether or not i handled it correctly. I guess there really WASN'T a right or wrong way to handle it...it kinda comes down to whether or not I would be prepared to play along with her silly game. And I wasn't in ANY mood to even entertain the prospect.

And if you just kept your mouth shut and let her stay at your place you would of been inviting sympdom if you tried to escalate and she turned you away.

You know that's the whole problem here.

I didn't want to put myself in the position of getting turned down for sex due to her "born again virgin" agenda.

If I had her stay over at my place, after we had crazy hot hotel room MONKEY SEX numerous times in the past, after talk of the possibility of a "relationship", I would have probably walked out of my own condo if I turned it on full force and she turned me down.

Sure in that scenario you wouldn't of come across like an assh0le but in the back of your mind you would wonder if she was thinking you were a total push over pvssy to let her get away with that sh!t.

And that's the thing with women. You aren't always being tested, but you are always being judged. If I had let her comment go and we DIDN'T have sex after I threw down, she would have me by the balls. At least by me not having accepted her proposition I didn't subject myself to her frame. And from the vibe I got from her I have good reason to think that if I did have her stay it would have been a disaster, cause I wouldn't be willing to play that game.

 

[STR8UP]

You want to know how to put it on track? AGREE with her. That's right. Oh, it's not giving away yourself as a man - it's just acting! You can do it!

It will DISARM her. It will DIFFUSE her. "Babe, I was thinking about you said... you're right. Yes, when you're right, you're right. No sex. It wouldn't be in our best interests. You stay here and it's not like we need to have sex or anything. That's cool."

Then come the night she stays, feeling totally at ease, she'll be slinking her body over yours and you'll be there thinking of baseball while she gets tremendously frustrated until finally... you get to slide into third base.

There is definitely something to be said for this advice.

I could be totally wrong, but the problem I see is that SHE IS SERIOUS.

And the reason I say this is because i have paid close attention to the way she interacts with me, and from what I have gathered she is putting as much resolve into this as she did into losing weight, which she did a very good job of. She is a very strong willed person, and I have a feeling that she would be willing to deny herself of sex if she had convinced herself that it was the right thing to do.

 

[Phyzzle]

"Well I'm not going to stop having sex just because you're here. Oh wait, you meant no sex with EACH OTHER!"

Could refresh our memories on why you can't consider actually having a relationship with this girl? Is it just age? Why, 22 is a long stretch from 18. I don't see any reason to shut the door on her.

And, yes, I'm another guy who has experienced a woman sleeping with me a few days after the "we need to take it slow and not make everything physical" speech. It was a much better idea to brush it off. I'm NOT saying agree with her. Just brush it off. You could have told this girl, "So if we have sex, I have to throw you out? No problem."

It may not be too late just to let it all slide and just let things progress when she gets there. Remember: women don't want their thoughts or demands to be taken seriously. If you fail this test, she'll be gone so fast your head will spin.

 

[Jitterbug]

I would normally agree, however, in this case the vibe I was getting was that she wants a RELATIONSHIP and she wants to feel like it's "legit" so she wants to "start over".

There are chicks who want a relationship with Mr Right and so they withhold sex with him, but fvck some Mr Right Now on the side (because a girl can't go without sex for too long, especially if she can get it easily) while they wait for Mr Right to jump through some hoops to prove himself worthy.

There are also chicks who are already in a relationship and still fvck a few Mr Right Nows on the side when they get the chance.

I think she's just putting up a big Anti-Slvt Defense.

 

[Cesare Cardinali]

Quote:
"I guess there really WASN'T a right or wrong way to handle it"

Well, I think the right way is the one that gets you to your outcome. With all due respect, I think on some level for the last while (based on your posts) your outcome has not really been to seduce women, but more so to display that they don't have power over you. Perhaps you are "overcorrecting" for being too lenient in the past. I don't know....

But it seems to me that a 22 year old chick needs some seduction and some wooing. You can do that. And since she's young, I wouldn't worry about her being all "serious" about an LTR. If she were 40 years old, then maybe it would be different.

 

[KarmaSutra]

You want to know how to put it on track? AGREE with her. That's right. Oh, it's not giving away yourself as a man - it's just acting! You can do it!

It will DISARM her. It will DIFFUSE her. "Babe, I was thinking about you said... you're right. Yes, when you're right, you're right. No sex. It wouldn't be in our best interests. You stay here and it's not like we need to have sex or anything. That's cool."

Then come the night she stays, feeling totally at ease, she'll be slinking her body over yours and you'll be there thinking of baseball while she gets tremendously frustrated until finally... you get to slide into third base.

This is pure manipulation. No excuse for it. Why would STR8UP stoop to manipulating this broad to sleep with him? Is the pvssy that sacred that succumbing a woman to trickery be deemed nobility? It's a means to an end and doesn't make him a better, more astute, man in the aftermath. What is she going to think of him as a man when she gets cluttered up with his nutbutter and realizes that he used subterfuge to get into her pants?

She would lose her respect, all respect, for him and kill any relationship intention or fvck buddy status from that moment forward. Regret would cloud every memory of him and it would be well deserved.

I will never advocate anything but being up front with how you respect your own boundaries. This puts your life importance at the forefront and is not negotiable. Standards should never be negotiable.

 

[Cesare Cardinali]

It's not so much manipulation as it is playing the game. For instance, is it manipulation when you put your best foot forward at a job interview, listing all these great accomplishments, and wearing a fancy suit? It's giving the audience what they want and both know that to an extent it's not entirely true. At a job interview and with your references, they probably do not give a balanced picture of who you really are. It's a game really.

Same thing with women. Of course they know and we know that men want sex more than women. They know that men want young hot chicks. And we both know that women want powerful alpha males with status and money. The game is set. You can either play by the rules or lose out to people who are playing by the rules.

Cesare Cardinali

 

[Mr. Me]

I'm gonna cut to the quick.

First off, distance generally kills relationships. So until she moves into town, what's the point of thinking about this.

Secondly, "Since we have had sex several times before, this is a HUUUUUGE red flag" - I'd say the big red flag is that you guys used to be together but it didn't work out.

"I know that we would probably never work out long term" So again, you don't want a relationship with her, so what's the point?

"I just got out of a relationship and it was more serious than you realize. I need some time." - wait a minute... do I have the right chick in mind? She was the one in a LDR with some guy ten thousand miles away that she saw a few times a year? How hard is it to get over someone who lives half way around the world you only saw three times a year?

It's so hard to keep up with your women, man. So if I have the wrong one, please forgive me.

"I don't want to make the same mistakes I've made in the past" - Maybe she means "I wanna make brand new mistakes instead!" Just kidding. I threw that one in just for comic relief.

"There's a good chance that she is still having sex with her ex "fiancee" who is in town for a week which would also explain some of this"

I think that's what all this is.

She's coming to town to meet up with the guy. You offered her a free place to stay. She doesn't want to sex you. So she made that clear.

I'm changing my tune. You may be her fall-back plan. Withdraw your offer. Tell her she needs time to get over her relationship blah blah.

 

[ketostix]

I'm agreement with Cesar Cardenali. Str8up, I think if it's true she wants a relationship, then it was a mistake to bring up sex talk. And if she wants a relationship then I also think her response "No Sex", was basically ASD. Like other said you should've brushed it off and proceed to a meet up and just made your move as the night played out. And even if she rebuffed your move for sex, then really why should you be more put off then you are this way? Your pass at her "just happened", as oppossed to something you discussed and talked about in advance as the status quo is. But talking sex beforehand probably just made her bunker down and increased her ASD. It's kind of the principle of challenge and mystery, make her wonder and worry some if you want to even have sex with her. And when you make your move, "it just happened".

Also, I think you should entertain the idea or at least play along with the relationship idea she has even if you don't want a relationship (I'm not totally sure why you wouldn't want a relationship with her anyway). It's kind of like a girl says she wants a relationship, later that night she has sex with you, and tomorrow she doesn't want a relationship. Nothing a woman says is set in stone or worth much.

I totally understand being frustrated with her and how you responded, and being tired of games, but I just don't think trying to pin her down on the sex issue and calling her out on it was in your best interest Str8up.

 

[ThunderMaverick]

Yeaaahh I think a lot of people missed the point that there was hot passionate attraction between these two in the past. This isn't a first date where both parties throw down the rules. They've had their rules set up in the past and now she wants to change those rules.

Why would I withhold my body to someone my loins are aching for while being perfectly able to NOT withhold?

Attraction isn't a negotiation. Clearly she thinks it is. She's telling him what she expects of him because she thinks her tw@t-tay is the end all be all. She actually expected him to go along with it! lawl. I had this pulled on me before
and I did the same thing he did. He DID do the right thing.

I can understand her somewhat when she says that she has all of these gripes and she needs to figure herself out. She totally went about it the wrong way though.

It's about setting your own rules, starting a game and playing with people who want to play by your rules. If you both believe in it, the game runs smoothly. If not, the outcome is usually worse than a soccer riot.

 

[STR8UP]

Secondly, "Since we have had sex several times before, this is a HUUUUUGE red flag" - I'd say the big red flag is that you guys used to be together but it didn't work out.

It was a fling. She was 20 years old when we met. Not even old enough to drink. I found out recently that she made MANY life changes because she wanted to get with me, but I was with someone else at the time and she didn't feel as if she measured up. She's a whopping 22 now, but 20 is WAAAAY too young to consider a relationship with.

"I just got out of a relationship and it was more serious than you realize. I need some time." - wait a minute... do I have the right chick in mind? She was the one in a LDR with some guy ten thousand miles away that she saw a few times a year? How hard is it to get over someone who lives half way around the world you only saw three times a year?

It's so hard to keep up with your women, man. So if I have the wrong one, please forgive me.

Same chick.

Thing is, she's a GIRL. It doesn't matter what you or I see.....she thought it was a big deal. Anyone who knows the basic facts knows better, but you can't tell that to a woman.

 

[STR8UP]

Yeaaahh I think a lot of people missed the point that there was hot passionate attraction between these two in the past. This isn't a first date where both parties throw down the rules. They've had their rules set up in the past and now she wants to change those rules.

Why would I withhold my body to someone my loins are aching for while being perfectly able to NOT withhold?

Thats the kicker. The first time we fukked she was in my jacuzzi, her best friend who also likes me got pissed and stormed out giving me the finger. Chicks don't do that to one another unless there is a strong connection with the guy. She sucked me off in the jacuzzi, fukked me silly in bed, and offered to cook me eggs and bacon the next morning.

Now she's wanting to "take it slow"????? C'mon now.....

 

[ThunderMaverick]

After all of that hot screwing!? I'm telling you, she's trying to hold you hostage.

Don't play that game. Don't let her stay with you either. Maybe you two WOULD end up having sex, but she'll want more. You're not willing to give her more so don't get involved. Simple as that.

 

[Mr. Me]

This is pure manipulation. No excuse for it. Why would STR8UP stoop to manipulating this broad to sleep with him?

Actually, it's a negotiation tactic. The best way to diffuse a standoff or argument or conflict is to agree. Then there's nothing to fight over anymore. Doing that doesn't get him laid, it just gets rid of the argument that's been escalated.

Thing is, she's a GIRL. It doesn't matter what you or I see.....she thought it was a big deal.

Hang on... did she end it? When a girl ends a relationship, it's because she doesn't want it anymore, right? They get to the point where they lose all love. So when she's the "dumper", it doesn't hurt her. They only hurt when they're the ones getting dumped. So I honestly can't believe she's really hurting over that. So it's a line she's using on you.

Everything she's been telling you is in the way of a stall. "I just want to take things slow, I need time". Yet you say she's been looking to hook up with you and made lots of changes in order to do so. So you'd think, especially since you guys have been together, that this should be easier, a walk-in situation so to speak.

Something's just not right here.

I think you need to keep her at arm's length until you got her agenda figured out.

 

[KontrollerX]

Good post Thundermaverick.

Another thing to keep in mind is she was the one who issued the ultimatum ie that being no sex.

This by itself automatically sets Str8up for a fall by either accepting or rejecting her framing of things with either acceptance or rejection putting Str8up in the situation of being an assh0le or taking a gamble which could lead to sympery.

Any man should respond to something like this by turning it around on the chick, make her out to be the assh0le for this kind of an ultimatum.

Say something like "Thats not cool at all to assume I'd want you over for that"

Then when the chick tries to explain or gets defensive you say...

"Whatever I have to go"

This establishes that you are not about drama or bullsh!t games and the lack of talking you are willing to do with the chick sends a strong message that she fvcked up by even suggesting such a thing as "No sex".

Suggesting that this is all you are about as a man.

The more you talk the more she thinks you are the bad one in just about any dispute.

You have to leave her with only the sounds of silence as her companion as well your disinterest in her current attitude about you that is blatantly disrespectful loaded with base assumptions.

 

[STR8UP]

I'm agreement with Cesar Cardenali. Str8up, I think if it's true she wants a relationship, then it was a mistake to bring up sex talk. And if she wants a relationship then I also think her response "No Sex", was basically ASD. Like other said you should've brushed it off and proceed to a meet up and just made your move as the night played out. And even if she rebuffed your move for sex, then really why should you be more put off then you are this way? Your pass at her "just happened", as oppossed to something you discussed and talked about in advance as the status quo is. But talking sex beforehand probably just made her bunker down and increased her ASD. It's kind of the principle of challenge and mystery, make her wonder and worry some if you want to even have sex with her. And when you make your move, "it just happened".

Maybe it's my pride getting in the way. Maybe it's that I'm getting older and have less patience. But the thought of having to re-seduce a woman who had her pu$$y wrapped around my face while my **** was down her throat awhile back just isn't appealing to me. I take it as her saying "You gotta work for this!" Why should I have to work for something I already had?

Also, I think you should entertain the idea or at least play along with the relationship idea she has even if you don't want a relationship (I'm not totally sure why you wouldn't want a relationship with her anyway).

Like I said, I was entertaining the idea of a relationship. She has grown up some since we first met. There are some things about her that turn me off, but all in all she's a GREAT girl, smart, witty, great taste in music, movies, art, you name it. I just refuse to start out a relationship of any kind where the woman tries to establish control. And as I said, even if she isn't doing this for the "wrong" reasons, rest assured she is paying CLOSE attention to how I react to the scenarios that play out. It's either "pass" or "fail" even if neither one of you realized there was a quiz.

 

[lookyoung]

STR8UP you should have never shown your emotion to this girl. The DJ rule is to never get emotional in any situation. You should have been calm and relaxed and came back with a ****y funny joke when she said no sex.

STR8UP you already knocked it out of the ballpark and she will always be a notch on your belt. We can't get every girl to love us the same way we love them. With my xgirl I was the best fvcking guy in the world to her. I was honest standup and always spoke from the heart and she fvcked me over.



I am not going to say to next her but don't invest anything emotionally with her. Make sure you do things on your terms and on your time. Don't go out of your way with this braud. Read my sig at the bottom this is so true if it is meant to happen it will happen.

 

[ketostix]

Maybe it's my pride getting in the way. Maybe it's that I'm getting older and have less patience. But the thought of having to re-seduce a woman who had her pu$$y wrapped around my face while my **** was down her throat awhile back just isn't appealing to me. I take it as her saying "You gotta work for this!" Why should I have to work for something I already had?



Like I said, I was entertaining the idea of a relationship. She has grown up some since we first met. There are some things about her that turn me off, but all in all she's a GREAT girl, smart, witty, great taste in music, movies, art, you name it. I just refuse to start out a relationship of any kind where the woman tries to establish control. And as I said, even if she isn't doing this for the "wrong" reasons, rest assured she is paying CLOSE attention to how I react to the scenarios that play out. It's either "pass" or "fail" even if neither one of you realized there was a quiz.

I understand how you feel and you reasoning makes sense, but what I was saying is to have just done this playing coy through the meet up night. Then worst case scenario you'd know whether or not if it was just ASD or a bluff on her part. If she didn't put out then you can put your foot down. But if she did end up having sex then all her ultimatums of "no sex" before a relationship are immaterial.

Str8up, I'm not saying you were wrong to choose not to play the game. I'm just saying if the issue was about control then there might of been more than one way, and maybe a better way, to have gotten control.