Article: Shouldn't Men have a choice too?

[Wyldfire]

Re: Re:

Originally posted by A-Unit



I do know a goodly number of women 'miss' pills, either on accident or without thinking. Girls I knew who got pregnant, didn't realize that anti-bacterial drugs counteract the effects of the pill and diminish its effectiveness during the time of illness. Usually this was from some infection and the prescribed medication had a canceling-out effect on the pill.


A-Unit

That's probably how that woman with cancer ended up getting pregnant 3 times while on the pill. She was taking medication to help fight off the cancer, too and that probably messed with the birth control she was on.

 

[SAYNO]

Originally posted by italostud
So you want a man to support whatever decision the woman makes, even if it is against his wishes, and then STILL pay her afterwards?

Thats exactly what she wants!

 

[Wyldfire]

Originally posted by SAYNO
Thats exactly what she wants!

No...the law clearly dictates that if a man fathered a child, that child is just as much his responsibility as it is the woman's.

It doesn't matter whether you like it or not...that's the reality and no amount of crying over it is going to change it.

If you don't like the law then don't have sex with women.

 

[italostud]

Originally posted by Wyldfire
I expect BOTH the woman and man to take responsibility for the innocent child...THEIR child. If it's both of their's, and they should have equal responsibility, why DOES ONLY ONE HAVE THE CHOICE OF WHETHER OR NOT TO HAVE THE CHILD?! And if she decides to have it, why does the unwilling party have to pay for her decision? How does that make sense to you?



She is being responsible by having the child rather than murdering it. Okay, that's your personal opinion. I have one also, don't bring children into this world if you can't give it the best possible life you can. A woman having a child, knowing the father won't be there, is in my opinion, not responsible.

She did not make that child by herself and she shouldn't have to support it by herself. It takes TWO people to create a life. Yes, everything is equal...wait, no it's not, it's not equal at all. Why the double standards?







. You also want women to sit idly by and allow men to be equally responsible for the unplanned pregnancy but bear none of the burden. So all of the sudden, men are totally responsible when a child is born? What about birth control? What about women ensuring the male wears a condom? Why is all of the onus on men?





If a pregnancy results...the man has no choice on whether or not that child will be born. He cannot get out of paying child support. He KNOWS these things.

Again, why doesn't he have a choice if it takes two, and there's equal responsibility?


The best analogy(i'm bad with these) that i can think of for this would be:

Man and woman are driving in the woman's car. The woman tells the man to just take the gravel road(take off the condom). The man says "I don't know honey, what if we get a stonechip(pregnant)?" The woman tells him not to worry. A tiny stone hits the window(sperm fertilizes egg). There's a small little crack. The man says "oh shyt, I told you. Well, we'll just have to go get it fixed tomorrow before it gets any bigger". All of the sudden the woman has a change of heart..."I'm not sure if I want it fixed..." I think I will just let the crack expand until the entire window is ruined and make you pay for it all. "Why would you do that!?!" "It's my car and you have no say legally what I do with it. I can let this damage get worse and more expensive as long as I want, and you will have to pay every cent, even if you never want to drive the car again, or even see me ever again. Oh, by the way, to fix this window will cost you around a quarter of a million dollars over the next 18 years. Have a nice life, tata". Man: "But wait, why do you have to be so unreasonable? Okay, fine if you want to keep the window this way, fine. If that's what you want. But it's not what I want, so please don't make me pay for your decision. I'll just leave you and your car alone, just don't garnish my pay for the next 18 years while I try to build my life" Woman: "Nah, even though you don't want it, and you're being nice and everything, I think I'll still make you pay. Bye now"

Maybe it's not the best analogy, but you get the point. This is how men feel in these situations, except many times worse.

 

[italostud]

Originally posted by Wyldfire
No...the law clearly dictates that if a man fathered a child, that child is just as much his responsibility as it is the woman's.

It doesn't matter whether you like it or not...that's the reality and no amount of crying over it is going to change it.

If you don't like the law then don't have sex with women.

Well, even though the law states this, I think men are finally waking up to how screwed we are when it comes to these things. Maybe our fathers let women get a little carried away, but if our generation has any say, it won't be like this forever.

 

[SAYNO]

Originally posted by italostud

Originally posted by Wyldfire
I expect BOTH the woman and man to take responsibility for the innocent child...THEIR child. If it's both of their's, and they should have equal responsibility, why DOES ONLY ONE HAVE THE CHOICE OF WHETHER OR NOT TO HAVE THE CHILD?! And if she decides to have it, why does the unwilling party have to pay for her decision? How does that make sense to you?



She is being responsible by having the child rather than murdering it. Okay, that's your personal opinion. I have one also, don't bring children into this world if you can't give it the best possible life you can. A woman having a child, knowing the father won't be there, is in my opinion, not responsible.

She did not make that child by herself and she shouldn't have to support it by herself. It takes TWO people to create a life. Yes, everything is equal...wait, no it's not, it's not equal at all. Why the double standards?



. You also want women to sit idly by and allow men to be equally responsible for the unplanned pregnancy but bear none of the burden. So all of the sudden, men are totally responsible when a child is born? What about birth control? What about women ensuring the male wears a condom? Why is all of the onus on men?





If a pregnancy results...the man has no choice on whether or not that child will be born. He cannot get out of paying child support. He KNOWS these things.

Again, why doesn't he have a choice if it takes two, and there's equal responsibility?


The best analogy(i'm bad with these) that i can think of for this would be:

Man and woman are driving in the woman's car. The woman tells the man to just take the gravel road(take off the condom). The man says "I don't know honey, what if we get a stonechip(pregnant)?" The woman tells him not to worry. A tiny stone hits the window(sperm fertilizes egg). There's a small little crack. The man says "oh shyt, I told you. Well, we'll just have to go get it fixed tomorrow before it gets any bigger". All of the sudden the woman has a change of heart..."I'm not sure if I want it fixed..." I think I will just let the crack expand until the entire window is ruined and make you pay for it all. "Why would you do that!?!" "It's my car and you have no say legally what I do with it. I can let this damage get worse and more expensive as long as I want, and you will have to pay every cent, even if you never want to drive the car again, or even see me ever again. Oh, by the way, to fix this window will cost you around a quarter of a million dollars over the next 18 years. Have a nice life, tata". Man: "But wait, why do you have to be so unreasonable? Okay, fine if you want to keep the window this way, fine. If that's what you want. But it's not what I want, so please don't make me pay for your decision. I'll just leave you and your car alone, just don't garnish my pay for the next 18 years while I try to build my life" Woman: "Nah, even though you don't want it, and you're being nice and everything, I think I'll still make you pay. Bye now"

Maybe it's not the best analogy, but you get the point. This is how men feel in these situations, except many times worse.

Like I said in the mssg that I pm'ed to you. You have some very good logical sound arguements. I think what need's to happen is first, they need to remove some of the "freedoms" that women have amased all these years.

I'd like to add a twist to this topic....


Sometimes the reverse happens too. I'm talking about where a women has an abortion and the man wanted to keep the child.

Women have too many options.

I Say lets remove some of these options, first make it mandantory that women- cant have abortions when the man wants to keep the child.

Second make it a crime punishable by imprisonment when a women is found to knowingly and deceitfully, get pregnant-without the consent of the other party.

Third make it mandatory that women get, hysterectomy after she has had more than 2 children out of wedlock.


Sayno

 

[Wyldfire]

italostud...you cannot expect a woman to murder her unborn child just because you don't want to be financially responsible for the child you helped create. That's an awful lot to ask from someone.

Even if I were raped and got pregnant I would NEVER have an abortion. It's murder...a murder that most men view as no big deal. It's no big deal to men because they are not the one having the moral battle with themselves over whether or not to end the life of a baby...their baby.

Women get to make that choice by themselves because if they end the life of their child it is that woman who has to live with the knowledge that they killed their own child for the rest of their life. All men are thinking about is their damn wallet and they couldn't care less about the impact an abortion has on a woman for the rest of her life.

Neither women or men should have unprotected sex unless they both want a child. The woman does get a second opportunity to avoid an unwanted pregnancy...because it is HER body that hosts the unborn child. There is a price for that second opportunity, though...because utilizing it basically makes you a murderer. The man has ONE opportunity and he is 100% aware of that fact. He can wear a condom or refrain from having intercourse with the woman to avoid an unwanted pregnancy.


You analogy doesn't work because a broken windshield is an inanimate object, not a living, breathing human being.

 

[Wyldfire]

I 100% support a woman not being allowed to have an abortion if the man wants the child. I do NOT support a man being able to force a woman to have an abortion.

If a child is born BOTH parents need to share in the financial support of that child.

 

[italostud]

Originally posted by Wyldfire
italostud...you cannot expect a woman to murder her unborn child just because you don't want to be financially responsible for the child you helped create. That's an awful lot to ask from someone.

Even if I were raped and got pregnant I would NEVER have an abortion. It's murder...a murder that most men view as no big deal. It's no big deal to men because they are not the one having the moral battle with themselves over whether or not to end the life of a baby...their baby.

Women get to make that choice by themselves because if they end the life of their child it is that woman who has to live with the knowledge that they killed their own child for the rest of their life. All men are thinking about is their damn wallet and they couldn't care less about the impact an abortion has on a woman for the rest of her life.

Neither women or men should have unprotected sex unless they both want a child. The woman does get a second opportunity to avoid an unwanted pregnancy...because it is HER body that hosts the unborn child. There is a price for that second opportunity, though...because utilizing it basically makes you a murderer. The man has ONE opportunity and he is 100% aware of that fact. He can wear a condom or refrain from having intercourse with the woman to avoid an unwanted pregnancy.


You analogy doesn't work because a broken windshield is an inanimate object, not a living, breathing human being.

You don't seem to listen. I've said a number of times, noone is saying force women to have abortions. BUT, if they want to keep the baby and raise it, and the father doesn't, why should he have to pay for her decision?

Just leave the whole abortion issue alone. That's for another thread.

And I know a windsheild is an inanimate object, that's why it's an ANALOGY. And my aim wasn't to make the best analogy I could, it was to try to show you how men feel about the situation and how women act, by taking it out of the usual context.

 

[Wyldfire]

Originally posted by italostud
You don't seem to listen. I've said a number of times, noone is saying force women to have abortions. BUT, if they want to keep the baby and raise it, and the father doesn't, why should he have to pay for her decision?

Just leave the whole abortion issue alone. That's for another thread.

And I know a windsheild is an inanimate object, that's why it's an ANALOGY. And my aim wasn't to make the best analogy I could, it was to try to show you how men feel about the situation and how women act, by taking it out of the usual context.

Every child born is entitled to the financial support of BOTH parents.

 

[Jvesti]

Originally posted by Pilot
"Walk a mile in the shoes of a single mother trying to support your kid/s before complaining."


I'm not even going to go there...

oohh please liberal, its called adoption.

People who aren't fit to raise children shouldn't be raising them. At least it will stop irresponsible females from having more children if they barely can afford to have 1. Or seek out responsible men.

Poor people can't and shouldn't afford to have babies.

 

[Wyldfire]

Originally posted by Jvesti
oohh please liberal, its called adoption.

People who aren't fit to raise children shouldn't be raising them. At least it will stop irresponsible females from having more children if they barely can afford to have 1. Or seek out responsible men.

Poor people can't and shouldn't afford to have babies.

I'm guessing that response was for me, not Pilot.
You shouldn't be so quick to assume that anyone is a "liberal". I am against abortion. That's actually a conservative stand, not a liberal one. That being said...if a man isn't prepared to take responsibility for any child that results from him having unprotected sex then he has the option of wearing a condom of abstaining from sex. It's really a very simple solution, yet so many men not only don't protect themselves, they also complain about unplanned pregnancy when they could have very easily avoided it.

 

[italostud]

Originally posted by Wyldfire
Every child born is entitled to the financial support of BOTH parents.

Are you just pulling stuff out of your as.s now?

 

[Wyldfire]

Originally posted by italostud
Are you just pulling stuff out of your as.s now?

I'm simply saying that when a child is born it is irrelevent whether or not either of the parents want to financially support that child or not. That child is the financial RESPONSIBILITY of BOTH parents. The child is entirely innocent and has needs. I don't care if the guy didn't want to be a father or not. If he's dumb enough to have unprotected sex when he KNOWS a pregnancy could result then he's just going to have to suck it up and be a damn man and take responsibility for his choices, just like the woman is. If he doesn't like it...TOO BAD...it's not the kid's fault and that kid still needs to be taken care of. It took TWO people to make the kid and it takes TWO people to provide for the child. That is all.

 

[italostud]

Well, I've said all I really wanted to on this subject. It's at the point now where I'm repeating myself and so is Wyldfire. So I'll let this one go.

 

[RaWBLooD]

Originally posted by Wyldfire
Yes, it's the woman's fault too...but men all KNOW that the woman will be the one who makes the decision about what to do about the pregnancy. Men KNOW this...and as a result they have to continue to protect themselves even in a realtionship if they want to be sure they don't end up becoming a father against their wishes.

Placing blame on the woman and complaining about it after the fact doesn't change the fact that the guy is a father against his wishes. If you don't want a kid then avoid it by protecting youself ALL THE TIME. Period.

no ones placing blame on the woman , men just dont want to support a child when they were told the woman was on the pill, when they offered an abortion, and when they cant afford it, what is a man supposed to do, grab the woman while shes asleep and do the abortion for her? If the woman wants to keep the child and the man doesnt want it, then he shouldn;t have to pay for it, especially in today when you can give away for adoption easily and abortion is even easier.
Are you understanding this, do you see where not having sex isnt the solution? because condoms arent 100% foolproof, and getting a vasectomy isnt an option, when u want to have kids later, either.

 

[RaWBLooD]

Originally posted by Wyldfire
It's not unfair to men at all. Unfair is when you don't know the risks. Every man knows that if you have sex with a woman a pregnancy could result. Every man knows that he has NO CONTROL over whether or not a woman keeps or aborts a baby he helped create.

You CAN'T force a medical procedure onto someone against their will.

This is not about forcing a medical procedure !!!!! obviously unless this is rape, both man and woman agreed to have sex, they are both responsible if they baby is born, if the woman cant afford it, she shouldnt have the baby, or should give it for abortion. And if the man doesnt want the baby the woman can do other things than abortion, like giving away for adoption, and oh yeah abortion in the early stages is such a hassle of a procedure huh (like what i mean they cut out the uterus right )

It's a violation of their most basic human rights. It is NOT the child's fault they were conceived by accident and that it's parents were irresponsible about birth control.

no one is talking about the child, if you are against abortion theres still adoption and i fail to see how the man should be responsible.

No one forces a man to have sex. No one forces a man to have sex without a condom.

no one forces a woman to have sex, no one forces a woman to have sex without condom (we aint talking about rape here), all condoms arent 100% foolproof

He knows the risks and assumes it won't happen to him. If it does happen, he has no business crying foul because HE KNEW THE RISKS.

same with the woman, she knew she could get pregnant, if she cant afford it why should it be the mans responsiblity?

There is nothing unfair about it.

 

[RaWBLooD]

Originally posted by Wyldfire
Again...it is NOT the child's fault their birth was unplanned. You are claiming it is okay to punish the innocent child by not making the father equally responsible for supporting it. That's not okay. Again...the man KNOWS the risks and if he wants to avoid those risks he needs to be more responsible in preventing them from happening.

If the woman can't pay for it, she shouldn't be having sex and then getting pregnant, END OF STORY.

 

[RaWBLooD]

Originally posted by Wyldfire
You have NO idea how expensive it is to raise kids, do you. I was married for 10 years and divorced my ex husband because he was an abusive drunk with Borderline Personality Disorder. I was an idiot when I was young and was too naive to see all the warning signs. I married him when I was 18. Three kids later, I'd had enough. I left him. I had really tried to make it work but just couldn't stand it any more. He has never contributed much of anything in the financial support of the children HE insisted on having. Now, let's discuss the costs of supporting those 3 children...

I have to rent a 3 bedroom or larger apartment or house. In this area, you're damn lucky if you can find a 3 bedroom for less than $1200 a month without any utilities included. There is heat, electricity, food, clothing, medical care, transportation costs, etc, etc. I have two teenage boys I'm having to feed. $800 a month doesn't even FEED my sons. These men who cry foul over child support are entirely CLUELESS that even the higher amounts they have to pay doesn't even cover half of the costs of providing for their children. Walk a mile in the shoes of a single mother trying to support your kid/s before complaining.

If you don't want to be a father keep your goddamned d*ck in your pants or put a rubber on it whenever you take it out. How damn difficult is that to comprehend?

if the guy has kids wit u and leaves AFTER all 3 of them are born thats much different, are u blind to see the thread has nothing to do with your situation?

 

[Jvesti]

Originally posted by Wyldfire
I'm guessing that response was for me, not Pilot.
You shouldn't be so quick to assume that anyone is a "liberal". I am against abortion. That's actually a conservative stand, not a liberal one. That being said...if a man isn't prepared to take responsibility for any child that results from him having unprotected sex then he has the option of wearing a condom of abstaining from sex. It's really a very simple solution, yet so many men not only don't protect themselves, they also complain about unplanned pregnancy when they could have very easily avoided it.

No i did not mention you. I was responding to someone else and it was damn clear. Anyways, you are repeating the same things over and over. I am ignoring further responses from you and would encourage everyone else to do the same.