a very controversial conclusion

[SteR]

Make any girl laugh and she'll look at you in a totally different light. These guys had a gift for it and it was amazing to watch.

I've always found this to be the biggest sign I'm "in there". If you can have a girl in stitches laughing then it's pretty much a sure thing.. or at least this is what experience has taught me thus far.

 

[floydb25]

No disagreement here. I was both extremely good looking and unattractive (fat, messy, etc) at different points in my life, and the differences were huge. Women were all over me during the former; flirtacious, googly eye'd, talking sexual, complimenting, smiling, touching, agreeing to dates, becoming infatuated, doing favors, being extra nice... It took no effort, because I was considered a "pretty boy" once the weight was lost. Prior to this, my other attractive (from hot to pretty boy / gorgeous) friends were getting all the action, and I was completely overlooked and ignored... until I got in shape, and could actually see what I looked like (seriously; chunky face, messy / long hair, Urkel glasses... not much to see). Plus the body was unappealing.

Ive noticed similar results with other overweight, or otherwise unnattractive friends I made over the years. The girls ignored, friend-zoned, insulted, laughed at, rejected, and flaked out on them - only to turn around and do the opposite with me and other good looking friends. They'd even say those guys were ugly - even if they werent that attractive themselves. For most women, you were either in the top tier of being hot (wanted), or ugly and undesirable. Even a lot of cute, attractive, above average guys would get "the treatment". They wanted hot, gorgeous or pretty boy status... Everything else was not good enough. Personality meant nothing. The ONLY reason they complained so much is because the hot guys didnt HAVE a personality, or werent nice, or whatever. They just left that part out in their *****ing (so as to not be perceived as shallow). Not that they genuinely wanted a decent guy.

Even now... I was fat and unattractive again for a few more years... Depression, PTSD, etc...Was pretty much unnoticed. Now that Ive lost 20 pounds and counting, the girls are back to their old ways of being nice and interested. I also over-hear girls talking about good looking / hot guys all the time.

Its all about looks. Guys who are in shape arent noticed UNLESS they also have appealing faces. If I only got in shape and didnt have the looks on top of it, I'd be struggling with the rest of them.

You either have to do nothing whatsoever (very good looking), or bust ass, deal with constant BS, become an option, develop mad game, have an awesome personality and enough charm, maintain the prize frame, deal with constant rejection, get friend-zoned, etc, etc (not good looking enough). Just the way it is. Ive been on both ends of the spectrum, AND witnessed it several times.

Of course, if the women in question are also extremely good looking (or otherwise have high standards, entitlements, are stuck up, etc) - then being hot is STILL not good enough, and you can still be discarded or regulated to back-up status easily. Being hot is just a prerequisite for them. Its natural in their selection. Its hot + everything they dont have to offer themselves.:crackup:

These experiences (and others, in different ranges / categories) have really taught me that men are no different than women. They just conceal, deny, avoid, blame, project, complain, and use smoke screens. Mostly to save face and maintain their falsified public image. We're all just shallow, selfish human beings in the end - with the same standards. They only care (and complain about) hot guys, all the same. If theres no crush or infatuation, youre nothing to them. Many of them also dont love, and just follow their emotions / vaginas. Just like men do with hot girls. Minus the vagina part... Sometimes. :cheer:

Much like everything else in life, its something you just have to realize, accept, and adapt to. No sense becoming bitter or angry over it. Especially since we're the same way.

 

[Somedude_UK_31]

floydb25:

I agree with you %100. A good looking guy who approaches they label him "confident" and "cute"...etc. A not so good looking guy approaching is "creepy" and "harassing".

I've been through your experience as well, that's where I drew my conclusion. It's ALL about looks and I don't understand why some guys don't agree, they THEMSELVES base everything on looks as well!! Women are humans as well and they also want good looks in a guy.

If anything, girls are way shallower than guys --> They care more about your looks.

Sorry everyone but this is the truth. Even female birds go for the male bird with the brightest feathers

 

[Burroughs]

If anything, girls are way shallower than guys --> They care more about your looks.

Sorry everyone but this is the truth. Even female birds go for the male bird with the brightest feathers

This is true....

But the crucial thing is men...we see a hot girl...we want to get our d!ck wet boom!

But a hot girl sees a hot guy....THATS JUST THE START OF THE EVALUATION

now she looks for career, money, status, car, etc...why? Well she's already hot so she needs a dude to be more.

This is the infuriating thing about the fvcking game today

you wanna chick to be into you looks wise and shut the fvck up?...you need to date 2-3 notches down...ie a 10 dude wants a ch!ck to lick his azz, cook, and shut the fvck up? of course he does ....we'll he'll have to go for a 7 ch!ck ... which if he's a 10 kinda svcks.

which is fine if you are a 7 dude...

but a 7 dude will only get that kind of subservience from a 4 chick ...see how it works....3 notches lower for men....sucks

This the game today....hb 5-6 biyaches are getting 8 dudes...because 8 dudes can't get 8 chicks....8 chicks are getting 10 dudes..because 10 dudes can't get 10 chicks....cause 10 chicks are trying to bone Leo Dicaprio and then lezzing out munching carpet instead of settling for less. the whole game is fvcked.

 

[flashpoint]

what a brilliant observation: being an ugly messy slop doesnt get you girls. unless you r a rockstar of course. big fockin surprise.

 

[Somedude_UK_31]

Seriously it's like every girl, as long as she looks OK, not even hot, has an army of guys marching after her just waiting for her to snap her fingers so they could come drooling to her service.

More than half the guys you see with girls are doormats for the girls they are with. Trust me guys, you wouldn't want to be in their shoes if you had an OUNCE of respect for yourself as a man.

You only need ONE single advice from this site..."don't give a sh*t what a girl thinks". Yes that's it, your horny? show her. You're pissed? show her. You wanna take her out? Go to her face and ask her out...Women power is the fakest sh*t ever.

 

[floydb25]

Burroughs: that works both ways, too. A lot of guys who complain are average, and expect to land a dime piece - and wont settle for less. Most every guy who complains is talking about the shallowness of hot girls. The irony...

So, anyway, today we had an apparently unnattractive guy start at our job. He left because the women were mean. He understood spanish, and they were speaking it to each other - about him. They didnt know this, of course. These same girls have always been nice to me. Even though I dont say **** to them. Unless youre good looking to THEM, fat chance getting accepted and respected. No smiles, no laughs, no favors... Quite the opposite.

People treat you based on your looks. Even if youre good looking, and successful, people are going to hate on you, and tell you youre ugly. Constantly. Mostly from the same sex. Even those who like you are going to treat you like they do everyone else once the infatuation wears off, they lose interest, gain enough control, etc. You arent a special cookie - watch how they treat others before getting involved, and you wont be blind-sided when the "change" comes. People generally only act nice when they want or like something. Captain S-A-H isnt exactly sympathizing with fat, ugly *****es, is he?

This is why I dont give a **** about what people say, think, or do, either. They form their opinions based on your looks / status, how they perceive you, what other people think of you, how they treat you, or how successful you are. Theres a lot of outside influence from peers, or their perception of what theyll think. Then you also have the biased, envious / jealous, competitive aspect. Not many people judge or treat you based on who you are - and the same goes for rejection. So, **** what they think or say or do. Its not important, and has nothing to do with you. People also misjudge, assume, etc. Theyre not being nice or mean because of anything other than superficial reasons, either. Doesnt mean ****.

 

[Stagger Lee]

No doubt attracting females is mostly by far about looks. But not just looks but looks plus conveying a certain level/type of personality traits-outgoingness, boldness, confidence.

I think what aggravates men isn't that looks and personality matter but two things:

A guy can be 95% of the apparent minimum standard to attract women looks wise. He can be the proverbial tall dark and handsome. But maybe his facial symmetry and balance isn't good enough, or maybe his skin or hair thickness isn't. And the fact that he is 6'1, in shape, farily youthful looking etc. won't matter. He is not 100% meeting the minimum looks criteria so he is in the reject pile, not just for hot girls but for most or all girls.

Contrast this with women. They can be short, fat, unsymmetrical face, so-so skin, aging etc. But they will still get plenty of men that meet 100% the minimum look standard (that females set) while rejecting men who are much physically better looking than they are. On an absolute looks scales of perfection, women only need to be 25%-50% of the way there, while men have to be 75%+ .

The 2nd is personality. Personality isn't totally separate for looks or appearance, they are somewhat interelated. But many aspects of it are somewhat set genetically just as physical looks. A man has to be bold, outgoing, confident and do approaches, face rejection etc. But he must not seem shy, quiet, nervous, creepy, pervy etc. A guy can be 95% to meeting the minimum standard for personality, but if he's not 100% then all of his qualities of being an intelligent, good guy etc mean nothing.

Contrast this with a female. She doesn't have to approach, be rejected, carry a conversation etc. She can sit on her fat azz and let the man do all the work carrying the conversation and be a boring sarcastic, critical person the whole time. On an absolute standard females only need to have 25%-50% of an ideal personality to get men, while men have to 75%.

In short a man has to be 75% perfect to be in the game to get far sub par women.


And one more thing, if women aren't attracted to you and don't like you, instead of taking a sensible approach that he's not their type and live and let live. They think you have no right to make a living, go to school or be treated with respect. They think you basically have no right to be alive practically. Women's own piss poor behavior towards men and not separating their interests and liking or lack of for a person from business dealings is the biggest argument that women are not fit to be involved in business and commerce endeavors and positions of authority.

 

[Burroughs]

!

A guy can be 95% of the apparent minimum standard to attract women looks wise. He can be the proverbial tall dark and handsome. But maybe his facial symmetery and balance isn't good enough, or maybe his skin or hair thickness. And the fact that he is 6'1, in shape, farily youthful looking etc. want matter. He is not 100% meeting the minimum looks criteria so he is in the reject pile, not just for hot girls but most al lor all girls.

Contrast this with women. They can be short, fat, unsymmetrical face, so-so skin, aging etc. But they will still get plenty of men that meet 100% the minimum look standard (that females set) while rejecting men who are much physically better looking than they are. On an absolute looks scales of perfection, women only need to be 25%-50% of the way there, while men have to be 75%+ .

The 2nd is personality. Personality isn't totally seperate for looks or appearance, they are somewhat interlated. but many aspects of it are somewhat set genetically just as physical looks. A man has to be bold, outgoing, confident and do approaches, face rejection etc. But he most no seem shy, quiet, nervous, creepy, pervy etc. A guy can be 95% to meeting the minimum standard, but if he's not 100% then all of his qualities of being an intelligent, good guy etc mean nothing.

Contrats this with a female. She doesn't have to approach, be rejected, carry a conversation etc. She can sit on her fat azz and let the man do all the work carrying the conversation and be a boring sarcastic, critical person the whole time. On an absolute standard females only need to have 24%-50% of an ideal personality to get men, while men have to 75%.

In short a man has to be 75% perfect to be in the game to get far sub par women.


And one more thing, if women aren't attracted to you and don't like you, instead of taking a sensible approach that hes not their type and live and let live. They think you have no right to make a living, go to school, be treated with respect. They think you basically have no right to be alive practically. Women's own piss poor behavior towards men is the biggest argument that women are not fit to be involved in business and commerce endeavors and positions of authority.

Men at their core are morons

They dream of having a 'mommy' to care for them...this mommy is their girlfriend or wife...this mommy lets them fvck her yay!

but then oneday 'mommy' leaves him

and if 'mommy' is wifey she takes his kids and money

then the man is sad

oh no! he gasps why did 'mommy' leave me?!

fvcking moron

 

[Somedude_UK_31]

And one more thing, if women aren't attracted to you and don't like you, instead of taking a sensible approach that hes not their type and live and let live. They think you have no right to make a living, go to school, be treated with respect. They think you basically have no right to be alive practically. Women's own piss poor behavior towards men is the biggest argument that women are not fit to be involved in business and commerce endeavors and positions of authority.

This is an intense post man, I always knew women were so cruel when it comes to judging. Men are WAY more caring when care really matters and counts. First time I experienced this was when one of my early ex gfs left me and I pretty much was miserable crying and on the verge of wanting to die...needless to say, she didn't give it a rat's as* about my fate

 

[Mike32ct]

This is an intense post man, I always knew women were so cruel when it comes to judging. Men are WAY more caring when care really matters and counts. First time I experienced this was when one of my early ex gfs left me and I pretty much was miserable crying and on the verge of wanting to die...needless to say, she didn't give it a rat's as* about my fate

What Stagger Lee said is true.

Women can be very condescending and cruel. She is either attracted to you or you are sh*t under her feet. It's sad, really.

Honestly, this is the REAL REASON not to be friends with women, in most cases.

You'll hear many reasons why not to be friends with women.

But friends (like GOOD GUY FRIENDS) view each other as equals. The problem is that if you are in friendzone (because she isn't attracted to you), she ALREADY LOOKS DOWN ON YOU on some level. You aren't a MAN to her.

The only way it can work is if she finds you attractive on some level, but isn't looking to jump your bones. You two just "click" personality wise. But at least if you are "attractive," she will consider you a member of her club.

 

[JdelaSilviera]

Lol, you guys seem like conspiracy theorists. It´s pretty evident that you have a very skewed view of reality, I don´t know if you really believe what you say, but if you behave like that in real interactions, you are probably paranoid and it´s easy to understand why you have difficulties attracting women.

Women are much more forgiving in looks, and you see lots of women who look fairly good, dating guys that just look gross... (and I´m talking about the early twenties where money is not involved). Women date bald guys with bellies, short shoulders,greasy skin etc... that are a million miles away from their ideal physique. We see a girl with perfect skin and hair, cute face, but because she has a butt a little bit bigger than we would like, we complain.

Women are also capable of suffering a lot because of a broken relationship, it happened to family members and friends, so please, stop being ridiculous.. it´s the most polite way I have to tell you this.

 

[NobodyCares1]

No, dating women is not so much about looks, cold approaches and ONS are about looks. I've seen a sh!tload of ugly guys dating hot girls.

One recent example, my classmate, most of the girls say how ugly he is. Well he got this 7,5 that is all over him. And how did he meet her? Through cold approaches? He wouldn't have a chance! He met her throuh his social circle and then you have enough time to game a girl and looks won't matter that much.

Of course looks does matter a lot, and helps you to get girls but it's not the only thing. Good looking guy will get a lot more girls, but he has to have at least some game.

Basically it's best to stick with the nubmers game, of course there are way to improve the success rate, but it's not only the looks you get as a gift from your genes, it's also how well groomed you are and how good body you have.

Can you imagine a guy with dirty old clothes, messy hair and oily skin as walking confidently and approaching a girl? Looks ridiculous at best. Now when he is well dressed with a good haircut you have a complete different perception of him and he won't seem so ridiculous when walking confidently.

So it's more about taking care of yourself and your body not just about genes. Of course if you have a face as if an elephant sat on it then you'll have a problem but it's still not hopeless, just look at my classmate.

And that's what I want to say, it's not so much about genes it's a lot more about taking care of yourself!

 

[TillTheEndOfTime]

Women are much more forgiving in looks, and you see lots of women who look fairly good, dating guys that just look gross... (and I´m talking about the early twenties where money is not involved). Women date bald guys with bellies, short shoulders,greasy skin etc... that are a million miles away from their ideal physique. We see a girl with perfect skin and hair, cute face, but because she has a butt a little bit bigger than we would like, we complain.

Completely wrong. Sorry. Women are far, far pickier with looks. Your statement completely contradicts logic. Men do almost all the chasing. Why would those being chased be LESS picky than the chasers? Doesn't make biological sense does it?

The women you're talking about are the nearly/postmenopausal women that don't have guys chasing them anymore. They're desperate. They want a chance at children if they don't have any yet, or just want someone to help with the children. Yeah, they're not picky anymore because NOBODY wants them.

Any woman below 40 is far pickier than an average guy in the same age bracket.

Are you kidding about the butt comment? I NEVER hear a guy turn down a girl for a minor issues like that. I do hear about girls turning down guys all the time because they're not tall enough though. I think you need to reevaluate who is picky again...

 

[TillTheEndOfTime]

Dude_UK,

You are half right. Yes looks will get you the interview, but attitude will get you the job.

Disagree. Very strongly. I have gotten "the job" for being nothing other than physically attractive to a girl. I hardly said a word to a girl and she had her friend asking me for my number to give to her friend who basically wanted to manhandle me.

Another time I met a girl and probably said things that would turn most girls off. I ended up dating/banging her for nearly 2 years. She told me it was all about looks in the beginning, but I ended up being a decent guy. So she stuck around.

Looks trumps confidence. Looks trumps game. It trumps everything. Why? Because the first thing you notice about someone when you see them is their physical appearance (duh). And that sets the stage for every single interaction you EVER have thereafter.

 

[Somedude_UK_31]

Completely wrong. Sorry. Women are far, far pickier with looks. Your statement completely contradicts logic. Men do almost all the chasing. Why would those being chased be LESS picky than the chasers? Doesn't make biological sense does it?

The women you're talking about are the nearly/postmenopausal women that don't have guys chasing them anymore. They're desperate. They want a chance at children if they don't have any yet, or just want someone to help with the children. Yeah, they're not picky anymore because NOBODY wants them.

Any woman below 40 is far pickier than an average guy in the same age bracket.

Are you kidding about the butt comment? I NEVER hear a guy turn down a girl for a minor issues like that. I do hear about girls turning down guys all the time because they're not tall enough though. I think you need to reevaluate who is picky again...

I agree with you my friend. If a girl has ONE quality she will have guys with multiple qualities chasing after her. She can have butt ugly face and short but has nice breats and boom...20 guys sucking up to her.

My frustration is that I do NOT want to act like someone else to get a girl. I can see cold approaches and ignoring and gaming working on a teenage girl but what if you are looking for a nice respectful sophisticated lady? I donno but I don't think you can pull that sort of stuff on her can you? I mean it just doesn't makes sense, it's not like I know for a fact, otherwise I wouldn't be here complaining but I would be with one instead

And how long can I pull gaming for? I really want to be myself, which is telling her how I feel if I missed her and what she means to me...etc. I don't know guys but I don't get gratification from just having sex, I want strong emotional feelings as well...go ahead and call me gay but that's how I am. I'm willing to sacrifice and compromise on looks a bit for that but it seems like in order for me to get a girl that has an average body, I need to pump 6 days a week non stop...this is not logical. I'm so damn frustrated

 

[Somedude_UK_31]

Disagree. Very strongly. I have gotten "the job" for being nothing other than physically attractive to a girl. I hardly said a word to a girl and she had her friend asking me for my number to give to her friend who basically wanted to manhandle me.

Another time I met a girl and probably said things that would turn most girls off. I ended up dating/banging her for nearly 2 years. She told me it was all about looks in the beginning, but I ended up being a decent guy. So she stuck around.

Looks trumps confidence. Looks trumps game. It trumps everything. Why? Because the first thing you notice about someone when you see them is their physical appearance (duh). And that sets the stage for every single interaction you EVER have thereafter.

Can we please see a pic of you bro? I mean I pump 5 days a week hard and look clean and I'm almost 6 feet tall but I can't get sh*t I'm starting to think I'm dillusional

 

[TillTheEndOfTime]

I've seen a sh!tload of ugly guys dating hot girls.

1) It's about what SHE finds physically attractive, not you.

2) I have also seen girls looking like pigs dating decent looking guys.

So what? Your limited experience is not proof that you can overcome the looks barrier.

Regarding point #1:

I knew a girl that was obsessed with height. While the guy's face was fairly unattractive, maybe even ugly, he was 6'3. And that got her wet. If he was under 6'0 she probably would not have even given him a second thought. Yes, some girls are that shallow.

I have also known girls with weight insecurities. Looking at their ex's, they were all chubby looking. While you think being a muscle head is an attractive look for a guy, they were not into that look at all because of their own issues.

The point is, every girl has her thing about physical appearance when it comes to what is attractive and what is not attractive. Nonetheless, SHE needs to find you physically attractive in whatever way appeals to HER. Not YOU. Ever.

 

[Somedude_UK_31]

2) I have also seen girls looking like pigs dating decent looking guys.
.

That would be me I only seems to be able to score pigs!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Stagger Lee]

Disagree. Very strongly. I have gotten "the job" for being nothing other than physically attractive to a girl. I hardly said a word to a girl and she had her friend asking me for my number to give to her friend who basically wanted to manhandle me.

Another time I met a girl and probably said things that would turn most girls off. I ended up dating/banging her for nearly 2 years. She told me it was all about looks in the beginning, but I ended up being a decent guy. So she stuck around.

Looks trumps confidence. Looks trumps game. It trumps everything. Why? Because the first thing you notice about someone when you see them is their physical appearance (duh). And that sets the stage for every single interaction you EVER have thereafter.

Good points. Besides just looks, appearance is most of your game/personality as perceived by the female anyway. You can never totally isolate your looks and appearance from verbal game and behavior. It's never about what you say so much as how you say it. How you say something means mostly how you look and your voice sounds.

If words and tactics counted for much or compensated for looks, then virtually every guy would be scoring more with saying and doing the right things. There is no such thing.