10 Years On

WestCoaster

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Phenomenal post by Rollo. A few things:

1. Can we clone your wife?

2. This says it all: *A lot of guys mistakenly believe that having a large bank account is the key to getting women, and while that might be true in the short term, in the long term it's to your own detriment (she'll end up with half after the divorce) if you don't ultimately kill the inner AFC and fearlessly embrace the postiveness of your own masculinity.*

... Killing the inner AFC, that says it all. AFC really is a killer, in my region just in the last few months we had a couple hubby-wife murder-suicides. I don't need to even ask: the guy was most likely an AFC.

Thanks for the thought-provoking post. I'm not married, I seriously consider it regularly, but am more thoughtful and cautious thanks to posts like Rollo's.
 

Vulpine

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Vulpine said:
Let's hope that we can all someday be as fortunate as to find a quality woman as well.
It just occurred to me how to describe this "quality". The way RT describes his wife, she seems to seems to have what I've been struggling to find in a mate myself.

I consider myself to be "old fashioned" in many regards and attitudes. However, I have adopted modernized versions of a lot of impractical "old fashioned" institutions and attitudes. Take, for example, the Catholic church's stances on abortion and birth control. Those are great examples of impractical "old fashioned" attitudes. Overpopulation, disease, and a lack of stable families make those views dinosaurs... not to mention rape and sex crime rates being much higher than when those stances were adopted by the Catholic church. Heh, and don't get me started on pre-marital sex - I'm burning in hell, no doubt.

Anyway, we walk a fine line between the past and future. What I'm looking for in a wife is someone who is the perfect mix: a modern old-fashioned woman. I don't care to be with an old-fashioned woman, nor do I care to be with a modern woman... maybe like, modern on the outside, old-fashioned on the inside?

I guess it's hard to describe outright, but I'm sure you guys understand what I'm getting at. I don't want a liberated femi-nazi for a wife, but I don't want to marry June Cleaver, either.

From what he's shared with us, RT's wife seems to have a good mix of both. Not entirely oppressive, but not completely submissive. I wonder if that could just be called "realistic".

Jeez, I feel like Goldilocks.
 

WestCoaster

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Agree Vulpine, Rollo's wife has the nice combo of class, new and old values. I find it near impossible to find an educated, intelligent woman who doesn't hate men; or a woman with solid values who is smarter than a door knob. Women tend to be either or in today's world, they're not very versatile.

At least that's been my experience ...
 

ElChoclo

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All good RT. But economic matters can have a nasty effect on a marriage, as Dr Farrell has pointed out.

If we were to have a 1973 oil price shock recession right now I think there would be an increased rate of marital breakdown.

Consider what kind of stresses might apply if you had 4 children, a large mortgage and you got laid off work for 6 months.
 

bauer_23

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nice to read some positive posts about marrage. I'll admit that the concept of marrage lingers in my head as a negative aspect of life if one is ill prepared to completly follow through to the end. interesting that you managed to enlist the interest of your future wife while she was seeing two very sucsessful people. My friends think that money and items are the be all end all of attracting women, and have no self respect for who they are. your story proves that they are wrong , even though I knew it anyway ;)

I don't often say this because I am happy with my place in life for the most part, but I definatly envy your current situation, and hope to live the same life in time.

happy 10th again, and cheers to another good 10.
 

Consent

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Rollo, what do you mean by constructive discontent?
And I disagree with you that a happy marriage needs to have spirituality. If you want spirituality, join a church/mosque/temple.
 

penkitten

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happy anniversary rollo!
i believe the tenth anniversary is the "aluminum or tin" year gift.

wonderful post.
 

WestCoaster

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This may sound stereotypical, but many of today's newlyweds didn't have to suffer one iota. They have the SUV and another car or two in the garage, a great house, a big screen HD TV, and so forth.

I grew up lower middle class, and at one time fairly poor. We lived in some tiny houses before upgrading to a nice (but inexpensive) colonial. I was never terribly unhappy.

My mom followed my dad around the country when he went to grad schools. They lived in student housing (so did I for a short period of time when my dad got a new job), they had one car, and a used beater. In grad school, my mom worked, rode her bike to work. Growing up we never ate out, didn't have cable for a long time, and so forth. There was always love in the family.

I never thought about perks and things. We lived in this very dinky house when I was in grade school; I had tons of friends in my neighborhood, that was enough.

I think men and women are totally spoiled today. The saying, "You should do better than your parents" ... really, why? Better or equal emotionally, I hope. Materialistic things? Who cares.

Most every young couple I meet starts the first few months of their marriage like this: Buying as much expensive sh-t as they can get their hands on. They're dinki's -- double income, no kids -- so buy, buy, buy.

When the early stages of your marriage -- the foundation -- is built on a big house, fancy cars, electronic equipment, and lavish vacations, well, you don't really have much of a foundation at all.

Hate to sound like an old fuddy, duddy, but I think today's young marrieds really need to pay their dues a little more, perhaps start off broke or something.
 
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Congradulations Rollo.

some people are just "well balanced" and can make it work.
 

Desdinova

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Hate to sound like an old fuddy, duddy, but I think today's young marrieds really need to pay their dues a little more, perhaps start off broke or something.
That might be a trait in your part of the world, since it's certainly not the norm here. I have quite a few married friends, and they're all poor as fvck. None of them own houses, only one of them owns two vehicles (beaters) and I'd hardly say that they're indulging in materialistic crap.

Many of them have paid their dues, and it hasn't helped a damn thing in their marriage. The husbands are all AFCs. I had one of them over at my place on the weekend to help me with a project. His wife got fvcking mad at him and gave him 5hit for paying more attention to our project than paying attention to what she was rambling about over the sound of the power tools we were using. He just stood there and took it like a b1tch. It was quite embarassing.

Things like this keep proving to me that the way of the Don Juan is the best way to live. If I was in his position, I would have defended myself.
 

Rollo Tomassi

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ElChoclo said:
,..economic matters can have a nasty effect on a marriage,...Consider what kind of stresses might apply if you had 4 children, a large mortgage and you got laid off work for 6 months.
Very true, external influences can most definitely stress marriages. We've weathered our share as well, but this is exactly the reason I promote not becoming monogamous until a guy reaches 28, and not considering marriage until his mid-thirties. Men in general have a longer haul toward maturity these days and it takes careful planning and experience to fully realize it. This didn't used to be the case and in simpler times men were expected to be Men by a certain age and weren't confounded by competing societal meanings of masculinity. I think of Robert Gould Shaw who was a Union Army Colonel by the age of 23 (go rent the movie Glory and you'll understand) - men had to be Men much earlier, but it was their environment that dictated this idea.

Most guys these days with 4 kids, who allow themselves to get into large mortagages they can't afford and work in the types of jobs where they could be laid off for 6 months, rarely get to that point due to careful planning and a developed maturity. My wife and I had one daughter by design. We knew friends and family who had 3, 4 & 5 kids who had marital problems caused by the responsibilities they bore in rearing that many kids. We made a choice to have only one kid because we learned from others. That's not to discourage people from having large families - I also know several very stable marriages with 4 kids - but they didn't happen by accident. It's a mutual understanding and agreement with a commitment to each other as well as the planned family that make for good marriages in these situations. Unfortunately in today's world these understandings are few and far between and most large families are the result of "oops, I'm pregnant" rather than "lets start a big family."


Consent said:
Rollo, what do you mean by constructive discontent?
I took me some time to disabuse myself of the notion that a human being could actually acheive a sustained sense of contentment. I didn't want to believe this was false, but it is and it's a good thing. There is no such thing as true contentment. We can experience contentment for brief periods, but by nature, we are always striving for something more. This is a good thing; if we didn't we would stagnate. It's how we express this discontent that can make us stronger or make us self-destructive. There are 2 types of discontent: constructive and destructive. Constructive discontent builds you up, while destructive tears you down (and sometimes others around you). I should also add that both of these aspects can be active or passive.
 

wayword

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Rollo Tomassi said:
There is no such thing as true contentment. We can experience contentment for brief periods, but by nature, we are always striving for something more.
I agree, we always want more. There is no "final" plateau where we are ever "happy," as we could always be happier.

That is why I disagree when people say as long as someone is kept "happy," then they won't cheat. Because people are never fully happy, as that's an infinite road with no end. It's unlimited. Life could always be better. A partner could always be better. A relationship could always be better.

So, what keeps people faithful is not so much their happiness as ultimately their personal code of ethics and hard barriers. Hence, there are plenty of unhappy people who don't cheat and plenty of happy ones who do. Difference is, if you're unhappy and honest, you'll just break up instead of cheat.
 

DoubleA

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Damn.

One of the most powerfully & deep pieces I've read since joining this site.
 

WestCoaster

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Biggest fallacy of all time: The Soul Mate myth. If everyone quit looking for perfection, we'd be in a lot better shape.

Funny, I just read in Newsweek about the post-wedding "depression" (pleeeeeeeeese!) women are getting after lavish weddings. Suddenly the day after the wedding, they're not the star anymore. And when they have the kids, they're really not the star anymore.

Like I said, more lavish the wedding, higher chance for breakup ... like clockwork.

But mostly it all comes down to what Rollo T. said on killing the inner AFC. Sadly, most men do not know this. I'm still trying to figure out why masculinity is hidden in American society and that sites like this are pretty unknown. The majority of my married friends are married AFCs ... sad, but true.
 

DJDamage

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Rollo Tomassi said:
. As i said before, by society's current standards I'm a freak. I'm a freak in that I met my wife and we dated (non-exclusively) for 6 months before I proposed to her.
How did you proposed? I hope you didn't get down on one knee and had a tear in your eye when you asked " Will you please marry me"?

I tend to get nauseous when I see that, I don't know maybe its just me (not the marriage proposel but how it is done).

Maybe I am putting too much emphasis on the power struggle that is happening today between men and women and as result they both end up losing.
 

squirrels

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I've come to realize recently that the traditional definition of "love", the one you see in the movies and in society, that mutual anxiety and need for each other to "complete" each other's lives is a load of bullsh!t. But that realization has caused me a great deal of disdain for women in general...almost like I've been sold on a false promise all this time. I feel like...what's the point? As a man, why DO I still want a woman in my life?

You've been successfully and happily married for 10 years. I would like to know how you define "love". When you say you LOVE your wife, what does that mean to you?
 

Rollo Tomassi

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DJDAMAGE: Actually, I took some time to decide if I was even going to propose to her. I had just 6 months prior come out of a pit of misery relationship with a borderline personality disorder, certifiable psychotic/neurotic woman after 4.5 years. I learned a lot from that experience, so needless to say I was more than a little wary of the idea, but it was exactly this experience that made me appreciate the stability of Mrs. Tomassi. In the weeks before I proposed I talked with a lot of married guys. My work out partner and one of my best friends (who was instrumental in my killing the inner AFC) had been married 5 years by then and he told me I'd be stupid not to. I spoke with an 80+ y.o. man, who'd been married over 50 years, who told me how he proposed to his wife before WWII and had to wait until the war was over to marry her. I liked his insights. If you can get elderly men alone and talk to them about women, it will blow your mind the wisdom they can realate.

Once I decided to propose, I knew it wasn't going to be in any traditional way. I had already had a ring that my mother gave me from her marriage with my father. She told me to give it to the woman I'd marry and hoped it would work better for her. So that was taken care of. My wife worked (and still does) graveyard shift at the hospital so she comes home at around 8am. The night before the morning of Valentines day I had bought a roll of butcher paper and some poster paint. I then proceeded to make a banner that said "will you marry me?" and keep my dog off of the wet paint while I made it in the garage. I then strung this banner across the entrance of our garage door in such a way that she'd see it when she hit the remote garage door opener from her car when she drove up in the morning.

She left the car running and came in the house and yelled "yes"; I was still asleep at this point and it freaked me out. I got out the ring, put it on her finger, we did some tequilla shots, she called her mom in Colorado to tell her, we banged and she went to bed and I went to work. The rest is history.

SQUIRRELS, amen, I agree and it took me a long time to come to that conclusion. I have a pretty pragmatic view of love. A popular concept of love is dividing it into different categories and qualification; platonic, familial, eroctic, fraternal, ect. I don't view it that way at all. All love is the same, and the feeling is the same, but how we express it is what changes. I love my mother and my wife, but I only sleep with my wife. I love my friends and I love my daughter, but there are things I'll do for her that I might not for my friends - it's all in the expression.

It's very hard to break out of the romantic definition of love, it's like saying you don't believe in God, but really it's just better defining it. "What is love?" is like saying "What is art?", it's subjective to the individual. That said, I love my wife in that I hold such an affinity for her and who she is that I'll willingly join the rest of my years in life with hers. I reciprocate the same emotion, respect, affinity, trust and desire she displays to me. I would gladly take a bullet for my daughter.

Ask yourself this, "how do you know someone loves you?" I can't get inside anyone's head to make sure for certain so I can only take the behavioral route. People express feelings of love by what they do.
 

squirrels

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Thanks Rollo. I'm just going through a really rough phase right now. Seeing relatives and friends getting married, finding steady girls, I really, REALLY wanted to believe in the sick, traditionally accepted idea of finding a SOUL MATE and "surrendering" to the "love" that you feel for each other. In fact, I was so sold out on that image that I got stuck in a crippling one-itis for a year and a half.

I'm just now discovering that it wasn't HER that made the times we shared so great together, but rather a projection of something inside ME that, by using "DJ style", I had displayed, but never really BELIEVED in, even as I DID it. And as soon as I felt that she wanted me and was getting intimidated by the way I held her to a high standard and kept options open, I dropped the "act" and lowered myself into the "fairy tale" version of love, which is really just a crippling anxiety and need for validation. And you can guess what happened next.

But I really just feel sick right now. Reading some of the things I have lately, I'm starting to realize that there IS no "love" out there in the traditional sense...I feel like Keanu in the Matrix after I just found out that nothing I believed in exists...and I feel like puking all over the floor just like he did. What hurts the most is that I'm now 27 and I'm JUST now realizing that the whole DJ thing was never meant to be an "act" to achieve socially-defined "love", but was a whole other lifestyle with a different belief system that most people just can't accept.

So I'm starting to realize that "love" is something that comes from inside myself...I'm realizing this power I have and this responsibility I have to believe in myself and be strong in the face of anxiety instead of letting it run my life.

It's just that I don't feel I've actually exercised my mind in that way and I feel incredibly weak and overwhelmed by the prospect of having to RISE to the level where being "DJ" isn't a brief burst of strength followed by a period of weakness, but a level at which that strength can be constant and natural, despite how f'd up the world is. The idea of having to set aside the notion of being "made whole" by another and instead rising to the position where MY passion makes the WOMAN's life richer and fuller.

I'm having a lot of trouble stomaching the idea that I shouldn't NEED love. The love you describe for your wife and daughter...the one thing I don't feel from that description is that it's something that you NEED...that you're capable of loving without any reciprocation or validation. Whereas everything I've been taught talks about the NEED for or PURSUIT of love.

I feel like to accept my place as a man is an enormous burden/challenge. Part of me just wants to reject it all and go get plugged back into the matrix, to believe the fairy tale. But I know I can't. I guess I just don't TRULY believe yet that I have the inner strength and brilliance of character that all real men do.
 

wayword

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Rollo Tomassi said:
People express feelings of love by what they do.
Yup, which is why I'm starting to think it's better to not say it and just show it instead. Saying it seems to substitute for action and wear it out after a while. Instead, it should be thought of and demonstrated with every act towards your partner, ones they are aware of and especially ones they are not.

My parents rarely say "I love you," but they are still married and show it in every kind, compassionate, sacrificial act towards each other...

It's easy to keep saying "I love you," but MUCH harder to SHOW and prove it. So, when you are both forced to show it, you have to try much harder to do so.
 

Vulpine

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Indeed. Love happens. It's like a side-effect of a drug, the drug in this case being a woman. Sure, you "do" lots of "drugs", but you don't always get any of the "side-effects". Just like you don't always get hungover from drinking booze.

Looking back, and looking forward, it's hard to quantify or qualify love: I might just marry someone that I don't "love as much" as I've "loved" someone in the past.

I think "love" is more of a woman's emotion than a man's. Sure, men have the emotion, but there is a lot more logic involved with the man version. I guess that's why men do the asking when it comes to marriage.
 
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