Why are there so many dudes in the PUA/Game community that don't have their sh*t together?

[AmsterdamAssassin]

Getting over a fear of humiliation by getting humiliated more; that's like saying someone who's afraid of dogs (because they've been bitten by dogs) could get over their fear of dogs by getting bit some more. In both cases, more exposure is only going to further solidify the phobia.

Nope, it's like saying someone who is afraid of dogs to learn more about how dogs see threats and approach dogs without getting bitten, but your autism manifests in rigid structures, so you'd rather come up with excuses than taking action.

 

[GoodMan32]

For me daygame transformed my life - yes it was time consuming but I learnt a great deal from it and when done right it can be incredibly awarding . I made a lot of connections and enjoyable experiences and all together felt more appreciated in these relationships it also grew my social confidence something that didn’t happen in my teen years - yes it takes time but alot of men waste their time doing other bogus stuff like watching sports , scrolling on instagram etc. if they spend 30 mins a day open 2-3 women over a year that’s 1000 women and you’re going to get some results eneveitably with half decent smv

I also saw a lot of wingmen being successful too although a quantity did fail who were more on the Asperger’s autistic spectrum and lacked the empathy to make decent social connections with women that they met- I saw that as the main sticking point that was really hard for 10-20 percent of men to fix - for the rest dealing with the mental burden of blow outs and bad dates was also tricky those who could withstand that generally got good results

To touch upon a topic you addressed, it just so happens I got my last date from being a wingman (the woman ended up preferring me). To touch upon another topic you addressed, it just so happens I'm on the spectrum (which is likely a major part of why the relationship ultimately failed...the whole thing is still strange though)

It's unfortunate (but true) when you say the spectrum hurdle is extremely hard to fix.

 

[GoodMan32]

I read Roosh's "Day Bang" very soon after it was published in September 2011. I transitioned more of my practice from nightlife venues to non-bar. I was in my late 20s then and seeking a way out of the bars. I had been aware of daygame as early as my early 20s but never knew how to put daygame into practice in real life until "Day Bang".

In 2011-2012, I had zero experience with what it is considered pure daygame. At that point in life, I had been in the mating environment for over 10 years. Almost all of my experience at that point in life was night game (off campus apartment parties in college and bars after I turned 21). I had never done a grocery store approach. I had never done a mall or bookstore approach. In high school and college, I had approached some girls in my classes and on campus, but it was the minority of my lifetime approaches at that point in my life.

Over the past 12-13 years, I have been a primarily daygame guy when I have needed to meet new women. There have also been times in the past 12-13 years where I have used websites and apps, but those were always poor experiences. I still have done some night game since the early 2010s but more of my night game was done during the 2000s.



The rejections and bad dates can be tough. I've dealt with both of those in approaching.

I have been disrespected, humiliated, and emotionally abused via approaching strangers. The treatment is unreal and inhumane. If I were a dog and I was treated as poorly as I have been in approaching, I would be in one of those ASPCA commercials.

A lot of men are going to be dealing with the mental burden of rejections and bad dates from approaching strangers. This is something that happens in both bar approaching and non-bar approaching. For some, the rejections and bad dates end up having a long term effect.

There are also men who get a mental burden from a lack of success in the app environment too.

The timing of Roosh's "Day Bang" is interesting (2011). By 2011, we were starting to notice some ill effects the tech era was having on a guy's chances with a woman (although certainly nothing like 2024). It's possible that's why there was a need for Roosh to publish the book.

How alarming to hear you've been disrespected and humiliated through cold approaches (to the point of describing the treatment as inhumane). Even though you don't win every time, I was under the impression your failures weren't as severe as it turns out they've been.

 

[SW15]

fake wedding ring.

Wearing a wedding ring while being unwed is a terrible idea.

This is a very old idea. This idea was part of a Seinfeld episode in 1991 and it didn't work well in this fictional representation of what could happen.

The timing of Roosh's "Day Bang" is interesting (2011). By 2011, we were starting to notice some ill effects the tech era was having on a guy's chances with a woman (although certainly nothing like 2024). It's possible that's why there was a need for Roosh to publish the book.

By 2011, Roosh had been in the seduction community for many years. He knew what was going on. He also had some articles in his archive about tech affecting the mating market. Some were likely before 2011 and some were after 2011.

How alarming to hear you've been disrespected and humiliated through cold approaches (to the point of describing the treatment as inhumane). Even though you don't win every time, I was under the impression your failures weren't as severe as it turns out they've been.

While I have had successes in approaching strangers, there have been plenty of failures too. Every man takes a lot of failures while approaching. Approachers like Paul Janka, Neil Strauss, Nick Krauser, and Roosh all have mentioned the rejections that they have taken. It's common for nearly any volume approacher to take many unpleasant rejections.

 

[GoodMan32]

Nope, it's like saying someone who is afraid of dogs to learn more about how dogs see threats and approach dogs without getting bitten, but your autism manifests in rigid structures, so you'd rather come up with excuses than taking action.

Ok, so if only there were a way to approach a woman without getting rejected.

 

[AmsterdamAssassin]

Ok, so if only there were a way to approach a woman without getting rejected.

There is, but you have to get over your fear of rejection first. And I don't see that happening.

 

[Solomon]

This is true at a high level. However, it is worth examining some of the details.

Some problems may emerge in the "living his life" part of it. As a result, that will make finding longer term relationships more difficult. A lot of unattached men do not have a day-to-day routine that is going to make finding a longer term girlfriend or even shorter term sex easy. Too many men are spending time either doing their job, spending time in their home, and maybe going to a gym where most women aren't approachable due to headphones/earbuds.

Men with subpar day-to-day routines often end up as app swipers, which is inefficient if you don't look like Chad Thundercocck (aka 85th-90th percentile + in looks).

Approaching strangers is often a difficult path too. It can be inefficient as well and it's also time consuming to leave home, look presentable, select a venue, seek IOIs/approach targets, and start conversations. A good portion of initial interactions will be conversational dead ends.

In general, social circle interactions are better options in the shorter to medium to for finding a girlfriend. This is most applicable for middle of the bell curve men. If you're looking for an extended relationship (1-5 years or more), your best bet for getting that with the least amount of grief and frustration is through a social circle. You won't have to do as many approaches in either non-bar venues or nightlife venues or take as many rejections. You won't have a miserable time on swipe apps.

Places of recreation can be good options and some hobbies might be beneficial as well (a part of places of recreation). Digging deeper leads to more debate on it. Some recreation options are better than others.



My thoughts on IOIs have evolved over time.

Generally speaking, you're correct that something is off and the individual man may/may not be responsible for a lack of IOIs.

Many men started to notice that IOIs were decreasing for them around the late 2000s/early 2010s (around the same time that the smartphone become popular). Around then, it started to become clear that Millennials (the young adult generation of that time) were not as socially savvy as previous generation and that women were getting immersed in their technologies. The Millennial generation had their formative years as a lot of new technologies were emerging. Now in 2024, we have 2 generations (Gen Y/Millennials and Gen Z) that have been raised in more digital worlds and have been less socially savvy. These less socially savvy Millennial and Gen Z are not as good at signaling interest to men.

Courtney Ryan had a video lately where she reacted to a Gen Z TikToker who had a difficult time signaling interest to a man in a coffee shop. The Gen Z TikToker is as attractive woman and she thought she was giving IOIs to a man. She removed her earbuds and tried to make solid eye contact with a guy. I consider this an example of how the younger generations are struggling with IOIs.

It is easier to approach with IOIs in place. It makes it more likely that the approach will be successful. However, with Millennial and Gen Z women being weaker at signaling interest, more and more men will find that they'll need to do approaches without IOIs.





I am a college educated White male who has primary been dealing with college educated White females since I graduated college.

A good portion of college educated women are bougie women. Not all, but there's a lot of overlap there.

Women with bachelor's degrees or higher (especially White women) do tend to have higher expectations in men.

IG model/influencer types also have higher expectations.

Both of those female groups tend to be heavily pursued. A lot of women with bachelor's degrees or higher tend to use swipe apps. Bumble seems to market to the educated white collar professional type female.

Down-to-earth women who are more genuine and higher interest level also have some baseline standards that they expect from men. Part of why they might "really dig you" is your money/possessions (at a base level) in combination with looks and personality.

You mention women who make more income than a man. Any woman who is higher income than a specific man will tend to be more difficult in longer term relationships, but could be a shorter term option for certain men. Higher income females often have numerous personality/attitude issues that aren't good in longer term relationships and might even be difficult in the short term.



Having your stuff together is going to help with some of the most attractive women. These are women with abundance of options in life. I agree with everything you said in this quote.

Not sure what race has to do with this, sounds to me like you're using it as an excuse for lack of success or trying to cope, but I'll play your game., I'm a black guy in a mostly white state (78%) and I have dealt with those "bougie white women"and educated white women etc that you're talking about. I would say that 90% of the white women I deal with tend to have Bachelor's or Master's degrees. There is nothing special about them, matter fact those women are the easiest to get if you're willing to deal with their bull****. The secret to dealing with these women is simple you have to have higher value in her mind compared to hers. Most white women won't date a black men even in 2024 so my pool is far smaller compared to yours(since there aren't a lot of black women in my state). However, as recently as last month I had 3 plates now down to 2(Both have Bachelor's degrees). If a woman perceives your value is lower she will treat you as such. However, I will say that most of them are not girlfriend material they are insufferable, shallow and narcissistic. I'm noticing a pattern with your post that they always talk about the impossibility of getting these chicks instead of the probability or better yet solutions. Just because you're not having success with them and limited with your belfies doesn't mean this is the absolute truth for everyone.

Having your stuff together does help sorrfy SW15 but you're wrong and clearly you're struggling with those types. Even when I was broke I was dealing with those types of women, I would even say as a black man it should be harder for me to get these women then it is for you as you are white. It is what it it is.

 

[SW15]

There is nothing special about them, matter fact those women are the easiest to get if you're willing to deal with their bull****. The secret to dealing with these women is simple you have to have higher value in her mind compared to hers
they always talk about the impossibility of getting these chicks instead of the probability or better yet solutions.

I never say that anything is impossible. I have no idea where you get that impression.

I do acknowledge when things are difficult. Bougie White women (most of my interactions) difficult women. That's why many avoid them or go to the third world. I think a lot of White men have challenging interactions with bougie White women. I know that I have had to make more of an effort over time with them. I have had successes with them and a lot of failures with them. I am grateful for the successes that I have had but some of the failures have been difficult.

I can imagine that it would be difficult for a lot of non-White men to interact with them as well.

I tend to find White and Hispanic women most attractive but tend to run in circles with more White women.

I will say that most of them are not girlfriend material they are insufferable, shallow and narcissistic.

That definitely makes the interactions with them more challenging.

 

[GoodMan32]

There is, but you have to get over your fear of rejection first. And I don't see that happening.

If there's a way to approach a woman without getting rejected, couldn't I simply be taught that method? (and then there would be no need to get over my fear of rejection)

 

[GoodMan32]

Not sure what race has to do with this, sounds to me like you're using it as an excuse for lack of success or trying to cope, but I'll play your game., I'm a black guy in a mostly white state (78%) and I have dealt with those "bougie white women"and educated white women etc that you're talking about. I would say that 90% of the white women I deal with tend to have Bachelor's or Master's degrees. There is nothing special about them, matter fact those women are the easiest to get if you're willing to deal with their bull****. The secret to dealing with these women is simple you have to have higher value in her mind compared to hers. Most white women won't date a black men even in 2024 so my pool is far smaller compared to yours(since there aren't a lot of black women in my state). However, as recently as last month I had 3 plates now down to 2(Both have Bachelor's degrees). If a woman perceives your value is lower she will treat you as such. However, I will say that most of them are not girlfriend material they are insufferable, shallow and narcissistic. I'm noticing a pattern with your post that they always talk about the impossibility of getting these chicks instead of the probability or better yet solutions. Just because you're not having success with them and limited with your belfies doesn't mean this is the absolute truth for everyone.

Having your stuff together does help sorrfy SW15 but you're wrong and clearly you're struggling with those types. Even when I was broke I was dealing with those types of women, I would even say as a black man it should be harder for me to get these women then it is for you as you are white. It is what it it is.

Even though it is true that a lot of white women won't go for black men, the white women who are willing to go for black men tend to (in many cases at least) fetishize black men. That would explain why even if most white women won't go for you (solely based on race), the ones who are willing to go for black men have been easy for you to nail.

Even if there are hardly any white women who will disqualify us (white men) based on the color of our skin, we don't have the fetishization factor working in our favor with white women (there are some mestizas who fetishize us white men, however...I would know)

 

[AmsterdamAssassin]

If there's a way to approach a woman without getting rejected, couldn't I simply be taught that method? (and then there would be no need to get over my fear of rejection)

Because, like has been explained endlessly, there is no shortcut. There is no simple strategy or method.

I would almost say, don't be so autistic, but that's your excuse for arguing instead of action.

 

[Manure Spherian]

If there's a way to approach a woman without getting rejected, couldn't I simply be taught that method?

You actually do not have to do some out-of-the-blue approach. I went to see my also-married friend of 37 years this last Saturday at a beer garden. We were standing at the bar and next to us were three women, with the closest one to us looking back and forth at us. My friend smiled at her and then she finally said, “hello,” and a conversation was started.
Another group of three wearing the slut version of lederhosen were on the other side of us and one of them kept looking at us as if she wanted to say, “are you gonna talk to me or what?”

We are not gorgeous men! However we are muscular, well dressed, make each other laugh, and probably present as friendly and open.

Pardon my French, but you appear to need to get the **** around people and socialize, and go for it at appropriate times. If I were single I would have asked for these women’s info and/or asked for a date right there (eg, “I’m free tomorrow. How about we meet somewhere around here.”) And if I got rejected, life would go on!

Do you have close friends and family?

 

[GoodMan32]

[


You actually do not have to do some out-of-the-blue approach. I went to see my also-married friend of 37 years this last Saturday at a beer garden. We were standing at the bar and next to us were three women, with the closest one to us looking back and forth at us. My friend smiled at her and then she finally said, “hello,” and a conversation was started.
Another group of three wearing the slut version of lederhosen were on the other side of us and one of them kept looking at us as if she wanted to say, “are you gonna talk to me or what?”

We are not gorgeous men! However we are muscular, well dressed, make each other laugh, and probably present as friendly and open.

Pardon my French, but you appear to need to get the **** around people and socialize, and go for it at appropriate times. If I were single I would have asked for these women’s info and/or asked for a date right there (eg, “I’m free tomorrow. How about we meet somewhere around here.”) And I got rejected, life would go on!

Do you have close friends and family?

To answer your question, I'd say I only have acquaintances (although there are some who have described themselves as a friend)

As for family, my parents are really the only ones I'm close with. Sometimes I see a lot of my parents. But then I also go through long stretches without seeing my parents.

Speaking of parents, I have a story that ties in with the story you just shared. One time when I was out to eat with parents and brother, a female patron was looking in my direction. My dad insisted it meant nothing. He even said I was being problematic by looking back.

 

[Manure Spherian]

To answer your question, I'd say I only have acquaintances (although there are some who have described themselves as a friend)

As for family, my parents are really the only ones I'm close with. Sometimes I see a lot of my parents. But then I also go through long stretches without seeing my parents.

Speaking of parents, I have a story that ties in with the story you just shared. One time when I was out to eat with parents and brother, a female patron was looking in my direction. My dad insisted it meant nothing. He even said I was being problematic by looking back.

I have noticed that those who are the most uptight about rejection are often socially disconnected, isolated.

 

[GoodMan32]

I have noticed that those who are the most uptight about rejection are often socially disconnected, isolated.

Other than a brief stretch in college, I've been pretty socially disconnected/isolated for 20 years now (ever since my childhood best friend left me for the cool kids)

One theory I have for why the socially disconnected/isolated are more uptight about rejection: If our social disconnect goes all the way back to childhood, chances are we got rejected at a higher rate than the typical guy by female classmates.

 

[Clockwerk50]

Other than a brief stretch in college, I've been pretty socially disconnected/isolated for 20 years now (ever since my childhood best friend left me for the cool kids)

One theory I have for why the socially disconnected/isolated are more uptight about rejection: If our social disconnect goes all the way back to childhood, chances are we got rejected at a higher rate than the typical guy by female classmates.

Ok.

 

[Solomon]

Even though it is true that a lot of white women won't go for black men, the white women who are willing to go for black men tend to (in many cases at least) fetishize black men. That would explain why even if most white women won't go for you (solely based on race), the ones who are willing to go for black men have been easy for you to nail.

Even if there are hardly any white women who will disqualify us (white men) based on the color of our skin, we don't have the fetishization factor working in our favor with white women (there are some mestizas who fetishize us white men, however...I would know)

But white men have the fetishization factor working for them when it comes to Asian and black women. White men are the most desired men on earth. I've gone out on the field with plenty of white guys not just that I knew but also off this forum. The game is far easier for them, I literally have seen black women throw themselves at my white wingman and him number closing with hardly any effort. I have never complained about race or advantages because it is what it is. Everyone has to find what works for them

 

[plumber]

It's very common advice given to single men to volunteer to meet women. I think this advice mainly comes from people with a blue pill ideology and it is given to men in the middle of the bell curve. An 85th-90th percentile man + (aka Chad Thundercocck) doesn't need to consider volunteering and is generally not told to volunteer. In general, I think more men would be better off focusing on diet and fitness rather than volunteering as actions that are more beneficial to meeting women and finding meaningful dating opportunities.

If a man is passionate about some cause and wants to volunteer for something, then it might be something worth doing. It might not be fruitful for finding women under that set of circumstances.

My sense is that very few longer term relationships form from volunteering. Its results in putting together LTRs likely does not justify its hype.

I also wonder if single women are given the advice to volunteer at the same rates that single men are given the advice to volunteer. I doubt it.

Not really red or blue pill, just life.

I don't expect that most of our users are already chad/thunder. If so then sure, they have a different path that probably does not involve this site.

Many hook ups are from volunteer situations and it is a good way to expand contacts, that then lead to other...

Yes focus on diet and fitness and money and mental health and style first.. Don't tell others to not volunteer, its much better than doing nothing from the keyboard.

If the man is just doing it(volunteer) to find women and doesn't really join the activity, its not going to work, just like you say. Most activities are like that, we see post after post where men can't even get hooked up in a club... that is FULL of hotness.

Keep doing what your doing and keep getting the same results....

I mean if what a person is doing is not working, then change. Volunteering is a way to do that, expect results after putting in some effort.

Remember, young hot women have pick from men of all ages. Almost no man turns them down. Maybe we have another thread about where and why they hang out...

 

[Manure Spherian]

Other than a brief stretch in college, I've been pretty socially disconnected/isolated for 20 years now (ever since my childhood best friend left me for the cool kids)

One theory I have for why the socially disconnected/isolated are more uptight about rejection: If our social disconnect goes all the way back to childhood, chances are we got rejected at a higher rate than the typical guy by female classmates.

That might be the case. I also think the isolated man has no buffer for rejection. Therefore, rejections hold more weight than they might had such a man been appropriately socialized. If a man has friends, close family members, or other people who care about and love him, rejection means little. If I were single at my age and got rejected, barring I had the same close friends and family members, maybe I'd be a little upset, but I would able to do an about-face on a woman, turn to the aforementioned people, and go on with life.

 

[Jesse Pinkman]

Ok SO I've been watching Love is Blind whilst working, I know it's a show but there is a lot of stuff that's relevant to this thread. There is a guy named Nick, 28 years old, lives in his parents basement, a former football player (kicker) who works as a realtor, The girl he is engaged too her name is Hannah 26 years old, she works a higher paying job then him

NIck's parents pay all his bills except for his car insurance and food. Nick has no clue about finances and 401K etc. Why am I bringing this up? because as a guy who has had a 401K since 21 it's cringe to watch someone so clueless about(basic) finances etc. The guy has only his looks and he isn't handy around the house either.

Now you gotta wonder if women are hypergamous what benefit is she getting from dealing with Nick? I don't see them getting married. IMO Nick shouldn't be on the show and

1. Find a girl that's cool with his situation
2. Level up his life then date after
3. Do both 1 and 2

Personally I think you should he should do 2, women will always be there but man if you're close to 30 years old and don't even know wtf a 401K is in 2024 dating and women is the last thing you need to be worried about!

You know, people bring up this story and mention the guy's looks and such but when I have seen this situation, some things come up.

I looked up the couple and Hannah is chubby, she is clearly better looking than him. I see this so much. Whales and chubby chicks end up getting with better looking or more in shape guys. It is like their version of getting even with financially successful men that end up with younger hotter women. Pic of couple for the reference.