The current dating market and how I see this century playing out

[TheGrindEqualsHappiness]

Well, I might be old school in my opinions, but attraction isn't mathematical formula or negotiation guys!
Of course looks net you a interview and it's important to get past the ick, but from then on it's game time.

 

[SW15]

How people come across on a message board vs. real life is such a huge difference that you cannot really consider someone's attraction without meeting them 'in real life'.

One of the reasons why I would video call to set up a date with anyone who approached me online is not just because they might be scammers, but also because I don't want to date women with high/squeaky/whiny voices. That kind of thing drives me nuts even if they are looking fine in their pictures. Same goes for smell. If a woman doesn't smell right, or uses too much perfume to mask her smell, she puts me off.

Smell and sound are two main reasons why I don't use online dating, I care more about smell and sound than about whether she has a great body. If she has a great body, but the smell and sound are off, I won't want to be intimate with her.

So, in that regard, a man could have the body of an Adonis, but there is probably something 'intangible' that puts off these women when he gets close to them. And it's likely something that he cannot change.

My goal is to reduce first dates that go nowhere. First dates that go nowhere waste my time and money.

I find it difficult to evaluate who is a good prospect for a date based on a profile I'm seeing on an electronic screen and maybe a phone call. Video calls are useful but it's an extra step. I stopped using tech-based methods to arrange dates years ago as my experiences from it were poor.

There is no substitute for a real life experience. Arranging dates from a real life method is superior to arranging dates from any tech-based method.

 

[AmsterdamAssassin]

There is no substitute for a real life experience. Arranging dates from a real life method is superior to arranging dates from any tech-based method.

I totally agree. Also, I live in Amsterdam, so any time you go out there are attractive women everywhere. I can imagine using Tinder when you live out in the boonies where you don't meet enough women, but in major metropolitan areas you find women everywhere.

Video calls are useful but it's an extra step.

I use video calls to screen women who approach me online through FB and IG to see if it's worth pursuing, but most of the time it's not.

 

[sangheilios]

A 6'4", 230 lb. fit/athletic guy with shredded abs has the potential to be the top seducer on this board. You should be proud of the stats you listed and the work you've done to achieve that physical fitness level.

You talk about excessive female pickiness and it is all true. 6'4", 230 lbs, fit and muscular is what women consider the physical ideal.

Yet you are having poor experiences with women despite being the physical ideal in terms of height, body fat, and muscularity.

Game is some combination of looks, money, status, and personality. You've likely got looks down although another poster mentioned the possibility of lacking facial aesthetics.

You are probably neutral on money and status.

Personality is the most likely cause, though that's difficult to determine on this board as you do make an impression of being articulate and reasonable.

It has nothing to do with what I look like. There is something very wrong with the dating market and my experiences are not all that unusual but instead rhyme with what other men experience.

I actually have a solid net worth and have a lot of disposable income. However, I don't flaunt wealth and honestly live a pretty frugal lifestyle. Most of the hobbies and interests I have are either incredibly cheap or totally free.

I personally believe my poor experiences in the dating market are heavily due to bad luck or a bad dating market in my area, OR perhaps some combination of the two. I had a string that lasted a few years where I was actually making approaches and endlessly running into attention *****s, time wasters, crazy women, etc. It was a lot of stuff like getting numbers that lead to nothing at all, or first dates not going beyond that. A lot of flakes and women pretending to be interested in me and wasting my time for who knows what reason. I can look back on a lot of these experiences though and I definitely dodged a lot of bullets without realizing it at the time.

Even with the flat out rejections I can look back and they just make me laugh. I remember having this phase where I was even trying to approach or make moves on women I honestly wasn't even all that interested in and still getting shot down lol. I distinctly remember one woman that I had some familiarity with that I thought was cool but wasn't really that attracted to and trying to make a move, only to get shot down. This same woman not long after entered into a relationship with a guy that weighed almost 300 pounds that was a douchebag/phoney that literally spent the entire pandemic doing nothing lol. I've had a good number of experiences like this and while at the time they annoyed me, I now look back on them and just laugh knowing that I dodged a bullet. I think I'm just not a specific "type" that these women are looking for lol.

 

[patb]

A 6'4", 230 lb. fit/athletic guy with shredded abs has the potential to be the top seducer on this board. You should be proud of the stats you listed and the work you've done to achieve that physical fitness level.

You talk about excessive female pickiness and it is all true. 6'4", 230 lbs, fit and muscular is what women consider the physical ideal.

Yet you are having poor experiences with women despite being the physical ideal in terms of height, body fat, and muscularity.

Game is some combination of looks, money, status, and personality. You've likely got looks down although another poster mentioned the possibility of lacking facial aesthetics.

You are probably neutral on money and status.

Personality is the most likely cause, though that's difficult to determine on this board as you do make an impression of being articulate and reasonable.

What does being articulate and reasonable have to do with being attractive to women?

 

[AmsterdamAssassin]

What does being articulate and reasonable have to do with being attractive to women?

Especially in writing. Unless you spend a lot of time chatting.

 

[Solomon]

I totally agree. Also, I live in Amsterdam, so any time you go out there are attractive women everywhere. I can imagine using Tinder when you live out in the boonies where you don't meet enough women, but in major metropolitan areas you find women everywhere.


I use video calls to screen women who approach me online through FB and IG to see if it's worth pursuing, but most of the time it's not.

DO you meet women who KINK friendly in a certain part of town or club?

 

[AmsterdamAssassin]

DO you meet women who KINK friendly in a certain part of town or club?

I'm a bouncer at a kink party every two months, but there are plenty of 'munches' at regular cafes where kinksters meet.

 

[SW15]

I think I'm just not a specific "type" that these women are looking for lol.

How is that possible? 6'4", fit/big muscles, and 230 lbs is an ideal body type for women. A 6'4", 230 lb muscular guy is someone that a woman would perceive as providing her with protection. Even a 5'9"-6'0" woman could perceive that.

You could date a stripper with big breast implants as a 6'4", 230 lb fit/muscular guy.

It has nothing to do with what I look like. There is something very wrong with the dating market and my experiences are not all that unusual but instead rhyme with what other men experience.

You do have 2 valid points here.

I actually have a solid net worth and have a lot of disposable income. However, I don't flaunt wealth and honestly live a pretty frugal lifestyle. Most of the hobbies and interests I have are either incredibly cheap or totally free.

Flashing cash could help.

Article: It’s true: owning a flashy car does make you more attractive

For whatever it’s worth: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/12/05/flash-car-driver-attractive/ If you’re unattractive you’re not getting laid unless it’s a gold digger and you’re strapped with cash. Don’t get your hopes up too much boys.

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Will a Rolex Get You Laid? Will a Rolex Help You Get a Longer Term Girlfriend?

https://nypost.com/2013/01/16/meet-the-rolex-romeos/ Rolex is one of the most prestigious brands. To get a Rolex time piece, expect to spend more than $8,000. While there are other watch brands, Rolex is the one most well known. If a man isn't getting laid and is struggling in...

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I personally believe my poor experiences in the dating market are heavily due to bad luck or a bad dating market in my area, OR perhaps some combination of the two. I had a string that lasted a few years where I was actually making approaches and endlessly running into attention *****s, time wasters, crazy women, etc. It was a lot of stuff like getting numbers that lead to nothing at all, or first dates not going beyond that. A lot of flakes and women pretending to be interested in me and wasting my time for who knows what reason.

Your experiences of first dates going nowhere is common, but that's usually reserved for more average looking guys without a lot of money.

Your area is mediocre. It's population firmly places it in the category of mid-sized metro area. The population is well above the 150,000 - 200,000 threshold needed to effectively date as a 25+ adult. With that said, there are some deficiencies in your area.

There's been some bad luck. Not having a social circle that can provide you introductions is a reason why you haven't had a longer term girlfriend.

What does being articulate and reasonable have to do with being attractive to women?

It really does not. His personality seems pleasant enough to me on here as an articulate and reasonable guy.

Game is some combination of looks, money, status, and personality. He has some positive looks attributes. He could flash cash more as women might not perceive him as having some money. That's worth discussing.

Personality attributes are difficult to discuss. Having a weak personality can be overcome with strong looks and money.

 

[TheGrindEqualsHappiness]

I don't totally disagree with OP:s original post. I wouldn't think it as doom&gloom but thats the path we are going. This is also why I'm going to introduce my son to PU when the day comes.

But everyone needs to understand that YOU are NOT the statistics. When even bigger amount of younger guys turn into incels it means that there's more pu$$y for the guys who have their sh1t together.
Good analogue is that even in downturn markets there are niches in business that really grow and thrive when dinosaurs go broke.

I don't want to sound like a d1ck, but first thing I would fix in a OP:s game is the "dating market is ****"-mentality. This is really limiting belief.

And second question about OP:s game is basics. How are your normal everyday social skills? Is it easy to start conversations in everyday life for example with your co-workers and when you have to go, are they in better mental state than when conversation started? Are people generally happy to see you and a have a chat with you? Is it easy to vibe with people?

If you look really good, those normal social skills and strong frame can take you surprisingly far, because you have bunch of attraction "built in".

 

[mikedee]

if the guy is ugly, 6.4 230lbs make no difference.
The face is important, more than the rest I think.

 

[AmsterdamAssassin]

Flashing cash could help.

I don't think so, at most it will draw in the gold diggers. I don't think @sangheilios is that desperate.

if the guy is ugly, 6.4 230lbs make no difference.
The face is important, more than the rest I think.

You don't even have to be 'ugly'. Women with 'Resting B!tch Face' look ugly but actually aren't. I know several men who have trouble dating because women don't like their faces/expressions/vibe and none of them are aesthetically challenged.

Meanwhile, you don't need to have a beautiful face for women to be attracted to you.
Personally, I don't see myself as handsome, but I know that women find me attractive. My face has become more angular as I dropped some weight after becoming diabetic in 2020 (after a severe case of COVID19 first wave), and my medically necessary eyepatch seems to be viewed more as rugged/badass than disabled, but before all that, when I had a rounder face, shaved head and only stubble for facial hair, I still had no issues with women considering me unattractive.

You're right that the face is important and probably more important than the body (unless that body is seriously out of shape, like beyond a 'dad bod'), but I think that an animated cheerful face wins from an emotionless flawless face.

 

[TheGrindEqualsHappiness]

I know several men who have trouble dating because women don't like their faces/expressions/vibe and none of them are aesthetically challenged.

..

You're right that the face is important and probably more important than the body (unless that body is seriously out of shape, like beyond a 'dad bod'), but I think that an animated cheerful face wins from an emotionless flawless face.

That's so spot on!
Your face can look perfect in photo but eventually you need to meet her IRL.
All the anxiousnes, worries and uncomfortablenes will refelect in your facial expressions / mannerism and can totally transform her experience. The same goes other way around also.

Good inner game will make you better looking.

And as you mentioned there are quite a lot you can do to your face:
- Physical fitness eg. lifting weights and keeping a proper diet for increased muscle mass and lower bodyfat will make your face much better looking. Low bodyfat will make it look more angular and bigger facial musculature from overall anabolism will make your face look better also. Muscular neck fits into this picture also.
- Good skincare routine will improve your complexion and diminish signs of aging.
- Beard can cover missing chin really well. No beard growth? Minoxidil works on your beard too.

Also knowing how to dress will improve your overall looks quite a lot and also frame your face better.

and that's only basic stuff.

 

[self_is_an_illusion]

I've been noticing a trend on youtube where a lot of channels are popping up that are dedicated to the issues that young men are facing in the current dating market. I've also noticed that these channels are attracting a lot of attention, something you can see with their view counts, and this shows that men are relating to what is being discussed. I've also seen this trend even spilling over into mainstream media recently, such as the stat where 2/3 of men being single and these numbers being discussed on a news channel.

The millennial generation has for a long time now been adults in the dating market and gen zs are starting to enter it now. I believe that the issue where young men are struggling to even get a date, let alone a gf, is going to be a trend that is here to stay that will have quite severe consequences for society. I feel a really good view on how things will play out in America is to look at places like Japan.

A large number of men are literally being told by women that they aren't good enough, essentially being rejected by society. I believe that given enough of these experiences and the right set of circumstances you will see these men check out entirely. You'll definitely see some mental health issues with this, such as an increased use in anti depressants, anxiety medication, etc. However, I feel the bigger impact will be men that will focus on enjoying their own lives as they see fit. This will vary depending upon the individual, but some negative things would be gambling, excessive video game use, drug use, alcohol, etc. Draft Kings is a great example, this took off starting from the time of the Pandemic and is no legal in many states. You might see men that believe there is little incentive to put extra effort into anything and they essentially do the bare minimum. What's the point of busting your ass at some job or grinding through a difficult degree program when it doesn't make a difference. You basically have a pool of men that will just get by in life because they know nothing they do matters.

I also believe that many factors outside of the dating market as a whole are at play as well. I believe the rapid increase in housing prices is a huge buffer for mating. I also believe that the current woke culture is a detriment to many things but with the dating market being one of them. Stuff like this just further isolates people and draws them inward. I believe that the COVID pandemic and the lockdowns accelerated this trend towards isolation.

I believe that much of what we are seeing is the actual panning out of a population collapse in the developed world. In East Asia it's already been a slow trend for a long time that is now starting to show itself, we can even see these nations panicking about their demographic future. However, we can see a much more severe case of this in the former Soviet bloc countries in Eastern Europe, which have lost significant portions of their populations since the fall of the iron curtain. The U.S and western Europe will temporarily be immune to this due to immigration, but I believe this will not make much of a difference. We are going to see a rapidly aging population where fewer and fewer children are being born.

The higher powers in the world are quite aware of this major demographic change that is on the way. Elon Musk has discussed this issue and it's something that is secretly a concern of many nations. AI technology and automation are naturally already on the way, but I expect a heavy investment into these fields due to the eventual dwindling of the working age population. The technology isn't quite there yet, but by the middle of this century I believe it will be quite advanced. This will undoubtedly bring tremendous changes to society as a whole, though it's hard to imagine how this will play out exactly.

While this all sounds like doom and gloom, I think there is something else that will come from this. I believe that down the road more conservative and traditional values are going to take hold. The west is in a cultural mess due to this woke nonsense but I believe that this is a phase that we are going through. I believe that the younger generations are slowly starting to reject this nonsense and seeing it for what it is. Political leanings are often based on personality and temperament, qualities that have a strong genetic link. I see the more liberal minded individuals essentially not reproducing at all and those along more conservative lines having children. Think about those that go to church or grow up in more traditional family settings, these are the ones that will have children. The man that is a feminist or self sterilizes himself by thinking he is a woman will not have children. I believe that as the century progresses we will see a shift towards this, though not before we see a tremendous decline in population.

Opinion lacks scientific rigor; relies on anecdotal evidence, generalization, and predictions without empirical support.

 

[Gamisch]

if the guy is ugly, 6.4 230lbs make no difference.
The face is important, more than the rest I think.

Uglý and overweight...add zero hane to the equation..

 

[SW15]

Flashing cash could help.

I don't think so, at most it will draw in the gold diggers. I don't think @sangheilios is that desperate.

There are times in life when men decide between nothing and gold diggers. Many men choose having sex with gold diggers over celibacy.

 

[AmsterdamAssassin]

Many men choose having sex with gold diggers over celibacy.

Those tend not to be the men who aspire to become DJ.

 

[sangheilios]

I don't totally disagree with OP:s original post. I wouldn't think it as doom&gloom but thats the path we are going. This is also why I'm going to introduce my son to PU when the day comes.

But everyone needs to understand that YOU are NOT the statistics. When even bigger amount of younger guys turn into incels it means that there's more pu$$y for the guys who have their sh1t together.
Good analogue is that even in downturn markets there are niches in business that really grow and thrive when dinosaurs go broke.

I don't want to sound like a d1ck, but first thing I would fix in a OP:s game is the "dating market is ****"-mentality. This is really limiting belief.

And second question about OP:s game is basics. How are your normal everyday social skills? Is it easy to start conversations in everyday life for example with your co-workers and when you have to go, are they in better mental state than when conversation started? Are people generally happy to see you and a have a chat with you? Is it easy to vibe with people?

If you look really good, those normal social skills and strong frame can take you surprisingly far, because you have bunch of attraction "built in".

Teaching your son about the red pill is not going to change anything about what I discussed.

Fertility rates are falling, people are becoming increasingly more isolated and lonely, etc. Things like virtual reality and throwing yourself into the metaverse are going to be huge down the road, a good comparison to how we would understand it would be heavy video game use, social media addiction, etc. AI and automation are already on their way and many underestimate both how fast this technology will advance and how much it will play a role in our society. Due to decreasing fertility rates, we are seeing that modern nations are rapidly aging and will eventually get to the point where those that are of retirement age/elderly will outnumber those that are of working age. There is going to be a need for workers and as the technology improves AI and automation will play tremendous roles in filling this gap. As @Solomon mentioned, something even like AI gfs could be a real thing for men that are isolated. It's not even that ridiculous of a concept, there are guys in Japan "marrying" these anime character, etc. Imagine a technology/AI so advanced that you could actually have a real conversation with it as if it were a person that had feelings, a good comparison to this would be to that of Cortana from the video game Halo.


How the dating market ties into this is that this is what ultimately is leading to declining fertility rates in the first place. When young men are finding that they are having a hard time even getting a date, let alone sex, it naturally leads to lower rates of marriage, children, etc. Sure, some of these women may be getting pumped and dumped by "Chads", but the majority of them are not willing to get pregnant by them and end up as single mothers on their own lol. Many of these women will ultimately remain single and childless past 30 and very possibly for the rest of their lives.

Opinion lacks scientific rigor; relies on anecdotal evidence, generalization, and predictions without empirical support.

LOL, no, you just don't understand what is being discussed and do not have the ability to connect these patterns and trends together.

 

[sangheilios]

if the guy is ugly, 6.4 230lbs make no difference.
The face is important, more than the rest I think.

Bro, I probably look better than the majority of posters on this forum lol. Many of your severely underestimate how picky many women are and how difficult navigating the dating market is today. I've experienced this myself but I've observed so much over the last several years in the real world. In addition to this, we are seeing tons of channels on youtube dedicated to men's issues in the dating market and it's even been spilling over into the mainstream media lately, as I had alluded to on my original post.

Your local dating market is definitely something to consider. I remember some post I read years ago on another forum talking about the dating market in Anchorage, Alaska lol and how he said even fatties had attitude. I think he mentioned something about being in the military and temporarily stationed there lol. You could be in some place like say Miami or LA or Scottsdale and being a guy that is 6'+ and fit may be seen as "average" to where you might actually have a hard time standing out. In a market like this, it actually might be a requirement to "flash cash" as @SW15 mentioned, where you drive a high(er) end car, dress up, wear a rolex, etc. I live in AZ and I actually have seen this for myself and it appears to be a big part of the dating scene in Phoenix, though I don't live in that metro.

Some other stuff to consider is how you fit into the dating market of your area. A tall and fit white man may still struggle in a place where such men are not seen as dating material. I've personally heard the phrase "I don't date white men" several times in my area. It's all about recognizing what you are, what you bring to the table, etc. and then how you fit into the dating market of your area. From there, you can decide if you need to make some adjustments or if you are in a playing field that you really can't navigate all that well.

This is deviating from the topic of this thread.

 

[TheGrindEqualsHappiness]

Teaching your son about the red pill is not going to change anything about what I discussed.

It will change for his part. As I mentioned, you are not statistic. The more incels choose AI-girlfriend instead of real life one, the more chicks available for him.

Also this voluntary extinction is mainly a first(and second) world problem. There is always option to geo-arbitrage.