Are all marriages as bad as they seem?

[Epicwinguy]

Single, marginally attached or unattached, and childless men are not comfortable around married men and their children.

Because children are annoying and married men are not people I relate to. Plus a lot are very pushy about marriage and fatherhood being the purpose of life that everyone must fulfill.

 

[Mike32ct]

My married friends always say “If I was single, I’d be getting so much puzzy.”

I just awkwardly change the subject after they say that lol. “Um so what’s for lunch?”

 

[Ricky]

I sometimes feel out of place when I see my friends married, with their wives berating them, nagging them, their children screaming and running around, fvck its like wtf am I doing here?

I am married but almost all my married friends have a situation like this.

i kept her in line but like a 1950s husband it worked for years but she finally rebelled at the urging of the sisterhood and a guy with less than honorable intent

 

[SW15]

My married friends always say “If I was single, I’d be getting so much puzzy.”

They wouldn't be. They would likely be incel/borderline incel.

 

[Mike32ct]

They wouldn't be. They would likely be incel/borderline incel.

Exactly my point. Always gives me a chuckle.

 

[radha]

Maybe a good strategy is to build your wealth before you get married then just have a rock solid prenup. I sold my company a few years ago and my investment income is more than likely never going to be as much as the cashflow the business was generating so I think if I go in with a solid prenup it would greatly reduce the downside.

 

[Murk]

God created marriage, if non religious yeah there’s no point in the risk. As someone who doesn’t want to fornicate I am looking for a wife.

 

[Stanley]

I just awkwardly change the subject after they say that lol. “Um so what’s for lunch?”

"puzzy"!

 

[DJ Novice]

Depends on what your definition of ‘happy marriage’ is.

Is it not being divorced, raising kids successfully, having companionship, still having sex etc.

After the end of a 20 year marriage I’m of the view (similar to @SW15) that the sheer passage of time dooms most LTRs (there will always be outliers).

Many factors at play - becoming unattractive or fatter over time, people growing apart or changing compared to when they first met, loss of frame, hedonic adaptation, complacency, selfishness, the stress of raising a family, the monotony, irritations and familiarity of living together and having sex with the same person (most people crave variety) means that most marriages eventually end up in a state of comfortable boredom where desire and passion have all but disappeared.

Esther Perel talks about the need to balance intimacy (companionship) and desire (lust/sex) in relationships as time goes on and that the factors that promote desire (distance, mystery, unpredictability, insecurity etc.) are the polar opposite of the factors that promote intimacy. Most LTRs, if they go for significant periods of time, end up in a situation where intimacy is all that is left.

You can limit the rate of decline (e.g. having a younger/very attractive partner, not living together or having kids, being open to changing things up in the bedroom, putting in the effort to maintain your fitness and appearance, showing appreciation, doing different things together etc.) but most LTRs will end up in the same place eventually.

I think the best you can do is enjoy the ride for as long as it lasts (the divorce rate is 50% for a reason) and be prepared so it’s not a shock when/if it happens.

I’m certainly not advocating never getting married and never having kids (having kids for me was the best thing I have ever done despite the end of my marriage) but you need to go in with your eyes wide open.

If you don’t intend to have kids then I really question why you would ever want to get married or live together purely from a desire maintenance and wealth protection perspective.

Better to live by yourself and be a serial monogamist or spin plates and enjoy your freedom, peace and quiet (qualities you value as you get older, your T levels decline and you have experienced a LTR of many years’ duration).

At my age the price of ‘in house *****’ (which is a rapidly deteriorating asset if close to my age range or will come with a heavy dose of negotiated desire if a younger model seeking a provider) is no longer worth it.

 

[Murk]

After the end of a 20 year marriage I’m of the view (similar to @SW15) that the sheer passage of time dooms most LTRs (there will always be outliers).

Many factors at play - becoming unattractive or fatter over time, people growing apart or changing compared to when they first met, loss of frame, hedonic adaptation, complacency, selfishness, the stress of raising a family, the monotony, irritations and familiarity of living together and having sex with the same person (most people crave variety) means that most marriages eventually end up in a state of comfortable boredom where desire and passion have all but disappeared.

I think the best you can do is enjoy the ride for as long as it lasts (the divorce rate is 50% for a reason) and be prepared so it’s not a shock when/if it happens.

So why did our grandparents have long marriages and die together, why was it doable then (for pretty much everyone) and now you're hard-pressed to last 10-15 years? Why does it really matter if you get a prenup in place and get some good kids of out it, surely still worth it?

 

[SW15]

After the end of a 20 year marriage I’m of the view (similar to @SW15) that the sheer passage of time dooms most LTRs (there will always be outliers).

The passage of time dooms most LTRs. The LTRs (including marriages) that survive are usually diminished in quality. The participants in that LTR are usually somewhat good at not letting the outside world know how bad things are in that relationship. Married couples tend to limit their associations with unattached/marginally attached men.

You can limit the rate of decline (e.g. having a younger/very attractive partner, not living together or having kids, being open to changing things up in the bedroom, putting in the effort to maintain your fitness and appearance, showing appreciation, doing different things together etc.) but most LTRs will end up in the same place eventually.

Following Iron Rule of Tomassi #1 (Frame is Everything) is one of the better ways of limiting the decline. A more-Alpha like frame within an LTR will enhance a woman's perception of her level of attraction and the overall quality of the relationship. Male loss of frame and becoming more beta-like are common issues affecting the quality of LTRs.

All the things you mention will limit or slow the rate of decline.

Monogamy does have a way of causing men to lose frame and become more beta. Many men have known a man who achieves a high notch count before marriage but gets into a monogamous marriage and ends up acting like a typical weak beta male once married. It makes you wonder if that man was really a beta all along, even in his days of getting sex from many different women.

If you don’t intend to have kids then I really question why you would ever want to get married or live together purely from a desire maintenance and wealth protection perspective.

Better to live by yourself and be a serial monogamist or spin plates and enjoy your freedom, peace and quiet (qualities you value as you get older, your T levels decline and you have experienced a LTR of many years’ duration).

When I was younger (late 30s now), I thought that marriage and/or living together were possibilities for my relationships. None of my relationships got to that point. In more recent years, I haven't even had that as a goal.

I don't think having kids in my 40s is going to be a good idea. I don't intend to have kids now. Getting married and living with a woman doesn't make sense for me.

One time, about 5 years ago, I asked one of my newly married friends why he got married. He was living with his girlfriend prior to getting married. I asked why he didn't just keep living with her as an unmarried guy. His whole reason for getting married was creating a more stable household arrangement for future children. Now, he and his wife have children.

The key to a serial monogamist or plate spinning life is staying childless, which goes into Iron Rule of Tomassi #5 (always be in control of the birth). Using condoms is crucial in that as women do make errors with birth control or lie about using it in general.

Marriage and living together don't make sense without children. I don't think living with a girlfriend without being married makes any sense either. So many unmarried couples live together. It seems like if a relationship gets to somewhere between 2-4 years long, the decision is made to live together, even if marriage doesn't happen at that point.

 

[pipeman84]

So why did our grandparents have long marriages and die together, why was it doable then (for pretty much everyone) and now you're hard-pressed to last 10-15 years?

Firstly, I would caution not equate longevity with quality ... they might have had long marriages, but that doesn't really tell us anything about the quality of those relationships. It's similar with how lifespan has increased a lot since the second half of 20th century, but that statistic doesn't inform us about health-span. Who really wants those 15-20 extra life years if they come with a lot of illnesses?

Secondly, I think the foundation of marriage was more solid back then ... you had women marrying before or very soon after reaching the age of 20. So even if she was a 'bad seed' so to speak, she didn't have the environment necessary to grow into a full blown hoe. Add to this the fact that society was looking down on women's behaviors that nowadays are considered 'empowering'.

 

[Ricky]

So why did our grandparents have long marriages and die together, why was it doable then (for pretty much everyone) and now you're hard-pressed to last 10-15 years? Why does it really matter if you get a prenup in place and get some good kids of out it, surely still worth it?

More stress from both couples needing to work to make ends meet, unrealistic expectations from the false worlds that social media create, unlimited access to new temptations.

I'd say its worth it to have a child if you plan on being heavily involved in their life. I wouldn't want to miss a minute of time with my daughter honestly.

 

[SW15]

Husbands and wives have roughly equal earnings in a growing share of U.S. marriages

www.pewresearch.org

There are fewer male breadwinners in marriages these days, leading to more career-oriented women in marriages. This isn't the best idea for a healthy marriage.

 

[mrrippey]

Most of my oldest freinds are now in the process of marrying their girlfreinds

Some have chosen to expedite the process with two of them popping the question after the 1 year mark

I notice that the way they describe and portray their relationships has already drastically changed

One of my closest friends for the first 6 months was doing all the nice dating stuff like city breaks , holidays , nice bars and restaurants, telling us about his sex marathons and generally having a blast

Today he his living with her and engaged.......i can't remember the last time he mentioned something about sex with her , there are very rarely any nice dates posted on social media anymore and their wedding planning has become a very expensive and stressful soap opera

IF women are the gatekeepers of sex and men the gatekeepers of marriage i am not so sure i would be rushing to indulge her

I would be trying to prolong the "honeymoon" phase of the relationship for as long as possible

Its a bit of a double ended sword because people think that by getting married and having children it will make the core relationship stronger

When in reality it does the opposite , it actually takes it to breaking point and when you mix that in with a general decline in effort from both partners the outcome is rarely what most expect

If that relationship isn't built on very very solid foundations it will fall to bits after marriage / children

Just understand one thing as a married dude 20+ years, once your girl becomes your woman, most guys are not talking about their sex life like that. Understand this is now or will be your child’s mother. You not going to talk about that great ass BJ you got last night. We mature and we become more private when it comes to that….or maybe im different

 

[SW15]

Just understand one thing as a married dude 20+ years, once your girl becomes your woman, most guys are not talking about their sex life like that. Understand this is now or will be your child’s mother. You not going to talk about that great ass BJ you got last night. We mature and we become more private when it comes to that….or maybe im different

Married people are good at keeping their lives private. Part of it is because married people tend not to have much social contact with unmarried people, so unmarried people don't know what goes on with the married people in their social network. These relationships are generally weak.

I would hope that married guys would continue to enjoy great BJs from their wives.

You had a long marriage if it lasted 20+ years.

 

[Juanto]

I don't think living with a girlfriend without being married makes any sense either.

I dont think living together without the objective of having kids makes any sense, period. Maybe when im older like plus 60 i will change my mind about this, but right now.... I dont see why I would live with anyone when i dont want kids

 

[SW15]

I dont think living together without the objective of having kids makes any sense, period. Maybe when im older like plus 60 i will change my mind about this, but right now.... I dont see why I would live with anyone when i dont want kids

I agree. There isn't a point for you to live with a girlfriend or get married if you don't want kids.

For men who don't want kids, dating becomes more difficult. Most women who are childless in their 30s still want kids, though maybe some childless 38-39 year olds are able to face reality and realize that kids aren't a good idea. By then, conceiving would be more difficult and the risk of pregnancy complications is higher.

If a man gets to 38-42 and still wants kids, he needs a much younger woman.

Many men 38-42 don't have strong enough SMV to get a substantially younger woman, including childless men in that age range. The realistic dating market for most men 38-42 is within a few years of their age. Meeting childless women close to the age of a 38-42 year old man is tough and many childless women 35+ are careerist. A lot of single moms who don't want more kids could be interested in a childless 38-42 year old who doesn't want kids, but childless men often aren't interested in single moms. There are thirsty AF childless men who will accept a single mom and commit to her, including getting married to her.

 

[Millard Fillmore]

I dont think living together without the objective of having kids makes any sense, period. Maybe when im older like plus 60 i will change my mind about this, but right now.... I dont see why I would live with anyone when i dont want kids

I don't think monogamy makes sense, period.