Are "women's high expectations" in dating actually made up by men?

[Focal core]

Women will consider men above 5'10 based on other status criteria.. Smv for the women should be below him too.. High smv calibre women dont even blink. They know they can get 6.. Afterall they are the women on top of the crop

 

[rjc149]

Nobody is going to change their opinion if you hurl insults, I think civil discussions while respecting the viewpoints of others would be better. I may not agree with what another user has to say but they have every right to share that opinion.

I'm not trying to moderate, all I'm doing is providing constructive criticism, if both sides just insult each we would get nowhere.

We are all on the same side here.

I don’t respect woke red pill, black pill, or misogynistic viewpoints. A lot of those viewpoints are presented on this forum. I respond, if at all, according to my distaste for them. It’s not a respectful disagreement.

 

[Robert28]

Yea he is going to just go around and snap pictures of couples. Lol

"Hey I am from So Suave and I am hunting women who are with slobs for proof that slobs get laid. Mind if I get a pic?
Lol

Robert go outside more man. Anyone that is being social sees this. 10s dont exist and 8-9s date 2 points down all the time.

There’s always Instagram and Facebook, surely he can steal pics of what he’s talking about and post them for us to see. I go outside and socialize plenty, can’t say I see many 8’s and 9’s with 6’s and 7’s. Or did you mean men date down 2 points? I see a ton of that.

 

[Atom Smasher]

Yea he is going to just go around and snap pictures of couples. Lol

"Hey I am from So Suave and I am hunting women who are with slobs for proof that slobs get laid. Mind if I get a pic?
Lol

Robert go outside more man. Anyone that is being social sees this. 10s dont exist and 8-9s date 2 points down all the time.

This is true. They do date 2 points down because men are NOT required or expected to be objectively beautiful. If you have backbone and “swagger” as @BeExcellent puts it, and present yourself as stylish (or even just neat and clean with your clothing), all these attributes like height, tattoos, etc. become non-issues.
Of course there will always be a handful of women who are hung up on height (and these are virtually always women who are heavily media-influenced and/or female gym rats), but by and large, these limitations are unduly amplified by men in their own minds.
Women grade on a curve. They average male qualities out. Those simple attributes I mentioned above cover any kind of perceived shortfall.
My best friend is 5’7” and his wife is gorgeous, and has a great personality. Height was never an issue for her.

 

[Robert28]

Seeing guys getting so bent out of shape because of height is rather disappointing I must say.

The ones getting bent out of shape about it are the women that demand it.

 

[Robert28]

This is true. They do date 2 points down because men are NOT required or expected to be objectively beautiful. If you have backbone and “swagger” as @BeExcellent puts it, and present yourself as stylish (or even just neat and clean with your clothing), all these attributes like height, tattoos, etc. become non-issues.
Of course there will always be a handful of women who are hung up on height (and these are virtually always women who are heavily media-influenced and/or female gym rats), but by and large, these limitations are unduly amplified by men in their own minds.
Women grade on a curve. They average male qualities out. Those simple attributes I mentioned above cover any kind of perceived shortfall.
My best friend is 5’7” and his wife is gorgeous, and has a great personality. Height was never an issue for her.

Let’s see a pic of said friend and his wife and put this to the test.

 

[Grounded eagle]

The ones getting bent out of shape about it are the women that demand it.

You’re really ready to die on this hill aren’t you?

 

[SW15]

Let's be real. We all love our stereotypes.
Could it be that women's high expectations in dating are just that? Generic stereotypes made up in men's heads?

On most occasions:
• You don't need to be over 6' feet tall, just taller then her.
• You don't need to be rich, just to have a secure average paying job.
• You don't need to be a hunk, just take enough care your looks.
• You don't have to be an *******, just to have a backbone.

I don't think women's high expectations are imagined in our minds. We experience them. They become part of our perception of reality and it is an accurate reflection of reality.

Height:

I'm 5'10". I agree that for most women, my height will be ok. However, there are enough situations that arise where I will feel the pain of my limited stature. There is a strong preference for men 6'0"+, especially if you're playing in the swipe app sandbox, where women have nearly unlimited choices.

Women's high heels keep getting higher. Being taller than her helps. At 5'10", I'm taller than a lot of women. How many 5'8"-5'9" women are going to be satisfied with my taller 5'10" height when they put on heels? Not many. I have found some. 5'7" is about the borderline for me. I have had a 5'7" long term girlfriend.

I have felt the height issue more acutely than many because I am athletic and enjoy playing sports. Taller women enjoy playing sports. For instance, I played sand volleyball for a while. The best sand volleyball playing women tend to be 5'8"-6'2".

Income/Net Worth:

@Zimbabwe used the phrase "secure, average paying job". Few jobs are secure. For the majority of my career, I've had limited job security. I've even been a layoff victim and had short stints of unemployment. In most cases, your income will not get your laid. You need game to close the deal. Net worth might get a guy laid.

I've seen men making annual salaries in $100,000-$149,999 still get treated like shiit by women or the women take their income level as one of their high expectations. Men don't really see special treatment for their income until somewhere around $200k per year. The threshold for special treatment on net worth might fall in the millions.

Having a job and being employed makes things easier for seducing women, especially if you are seeking a relationship and not just casual sex. Getting laid while unemployed is easier for the generally deadbeat guy with multiple tattoos than it is for the middle class, BA/BS degree or higher, white collar man who maybe has 1-2 well concealed tattoos.

Looks:

Bigger muscles make it easier to attract and seduce. Being in reasonable shape is often enough if you have some game.

Having Backbone:

With men becoming more beta, the guys tending to have more backbone are the degenerate criminal element. Keeping a good frame is essential, criminal record or no criminal element. Strong frame is good for game.

 

[rjc149]

You are too concerned with something this group has never been concerned with: equating men and women. Men have their own problems but we are observing and discussing women's behavior. The 75% divorce initiation rate proves that women are more restless in relationships.

I'm not really equating men and women, aside from basic human mating urges which dictates that all of us prefer the most appealing mate we can have.

What I find myself doing here is simply calling out the oft-presented viewpoint that women are somehow defective or have insidious, ulterior motivations in dating that are entirely unique to them. And yes, many aspects of female dating strategy are uniquely female, because ultimately, women are more attracted to behavior, whereas we are more attracted to physical beauty.

Women are emotionally-driven which often causes them to be fickle and capricious, compounded by the basic dynamic of human sexuality which means that women often have multiple mating choices. The paradox of choice causes all of us -- men and women -- to be indecisive. Men with very abundant options will be no more likely to stay committed to a monogamous relationship.

I seek to provide balance to the pervasive misogyny on this forum guised as "red pill." Men who are hung up about things like height and who are contemptuous of women will not be successful at seducing them -- and that's the ultimate objective of SS, is it not?

You said that your relationships ended because you were an a**hole. That isn't true for a lot of us. Our relationships ended primarily for hypergamy reasons, and I'm certain so did all of the future relationships my ex girlfriend's had. It is true that for the bad guys, increasingly common female behavior is not so different from them.

Women left me for being an a$$hole because of hypergamy. They dumped me for more compliant "beta" type guys who were more emotionally validating. Hypergamy is dual-faceted. That's my point.

Women need a strong dominant alpha whatever whatever who "holds frame" etc. but they also need an emotionally supportive and nurturing partner to validate them and make them feel cared about. Woke red pill guys here fvcking hate hearing that sh!t and knee-jerk react with "cuck! feminist! blue pill! you're a woman!" but the reality is that women need a leader/protector and a nurturer/provider. If you're not both, they will vacillate. The most attractive archetype to women is almost always the alpha provider with a soft, vulnerable side. Not the silverback alpha posers here using words like "feminine imperative" "spin more plates" and "cuck."

 

[rjc149]

Men and women are different. The sooner you realize that the better. At their core they are all hoes bro.

Thank you, but I didn't lose my virginity yesterday, bro. At our core, we are all fvckboys too. Just not all of us get to act on it.

They have GF's for that bro. They absoluty do not need this from men. Yes being a mix of alpha with a few beta traits but what you are describing sounds like the "emotional tampon" dynamic. Which is not good in my experience

This is exactly the type of woke red pill platitude that I am calling out. You have no idea what I'm describing. You're just knee-jerking with the same tired "you're a cuck!" bullsh!t.

I'm assuming, that in your experience, you were a total beta pleaser, got burned, and now you're "RED PILL!!" and see all women for what they really are. Right?

Right. Same here. I was a little beta pleaser b!tch and got burned. I over-calibrated to the other end of that spectrum, acting like a silverback alpha AMS-style poser. The whole "never, ever, be validatin' no wamun" type bullsh!t. Got burned.

The ideal is somewhere in the middle. Where in the middle, that depends on the woman. Depends on the man. But if you want to be just one, either or, alpha or beta, she will leave you for the other.

I don't believe you know how to maintain a relationship with an attractive woman, because I don't think you ever have. If you're not interested in maintaining relationships, but would just rather "spin plates" (or emulate that ideal) then that is fine. There's a place for that here too.

 

[Barrister]

Thank you, but I didn't lose my virginity yesterday, bro. At our core, we are all fvckboys too. Just not all of us get to act on it.


This is exactly the type of woke red pill platitude that I am calling out. You have no idea what I'm describing. You're just knee-jerking with the same tired "you're a cuck!" bullsh!t.

I'm assuming, that in your experience, you were a total beta pleaser, got burned, and now you're "RED PILL!!" and see all women for what they really are. Right?

Right. Same here. I was a little beta pleaser b!tch and got burned. I over-calibrated to the other end of that spectrum, acting like a silverback alpha AMS-style poser. The whole "never, ever, be validatin' no wamun" type bullsh!t. Got burned.

The ideal is somewhere in the middle. Where in the middle, that depends on the woman. Depends on the man.

I don't believe you know how to maintain a relationship with an attractive woman, because I don't think you ever have. If you're not interested in maintaining relationships, but would just rather "spin plates" (or emulate that ideal) then that is fine. There's a place for that here too.

Ah - so you are PURPLE PILL? Ha - just kidding.

In all fairness, I think you make good points. But don't try to paint the members here with a broad brush. We ALL have our reasons for being the way we are. Naturally, we will try to argue our points as to why everyone should subscribe to our point of view. But I can tell you that @stringpuller is a good poster. Try not to be so quick to be on the offensive with everyone, brother. I enjoy your posts otherwise.

 

[rjc149]

I

I know that was your point. I'm saying it skews your perspective

I don't think it does. I think my experiences with women, being burned for being on either side of the "alpha/beta" dichotomy, have given me a grounded, encompassing perspective on how they behave in relationships.

If you have to choose between the two, and can't be both, always defer to being more alpha. You'll get the girl, but won't keep her. That's better than not getting the girl, and also not keeping her.

 

[rjc149]

Ah - so you are PURPLE PILL? Ha - just kidding.

In all fairness, I think you make good points. But don't try to paint the members here with a broad brush. We ALL have our reasons for being the way we are. Naturally, we will try to argue our points as to why everyone should subscribe to our point of view. But I can tell you that @stringpuller is a good poster. Try not to be so quick to be on the offensive with everyone, brother. I enjoy your posts otherwise.

I am purple pill, I think. I still desire fulfilling and enjoyable relationships with women, but I'm also aware of the pitfalls. Being red pilled is the ability to navigate around those pitfalls, not being angry that they exist. I just see a lot of anger here on this forum. Maybe those just happen to be the loudest and most conspicuous. There are a lot of good members here too.

I also haven't historically had positive interactions with @stringpuller in the past. Case in point, I've advocated that women need a man who is emotionally validating in order to add value to her life, and stay in that relationship. He's responded by calling that being an "emotional tampon" because all women are hoes, and now I'm an emotional, whiny SJW with purple hair.

This is exactly what I'm trying to push back on.

 

[rjc149]

Mine werent failings as much as they were later aha moments of what I did right verses wrong. There is a difference.

They were lessons. The best lessons come from failure.

I've learned lessons about women the hard way. That doesn't embitter me about them. It doesn't lead me to deem them all as hoes. I think that's the difference here.

 

[Robert28]

You’re really ready to die on this hill aren’t you?

I’m not trying to win hearts and minds, I just share my experiences. If someone doesn’t agree with me then they haven’t had those experiences or they’re in denial.

 

[rjc149]

You misread the facts about women as bitterness. Im a big fan of women. You are misreading a lot through your bitterness to the RP.
Check out DariusM youtube channel. He puts videos of women saying this stuff with their own mouths.
They are not yours. Its just your turn.

I don't watch videos which are composed and edited to conform to someone's confirmation bias. I can also put up a Youtube video showing only what I want to show. Videos on internet don't mean, or accomplish, sh!t other than wasting my time. Youtube content creators, especially the woke red pill ones, create outrage porn so you click on the video. That's how they make money.

I'm not misreading facts about women, about how they view men, about how they date, about how they respond to certain behaviors etc. I know the facts. I'm well aware of them. I seek to offer an understanding of those facts that aren't angry, bitter, or contemptuous.

"They are not yours, it's just your turn."

This is of course intended to be harsh truth to men who believe that women should be theirs to own. A lot of red pill outrage is the disentitlement of men who, for the 20,000 years of human civilization, have been entitled to women.

 

[Atom Smasher]

Let’s see a pic of said friend and his wife and put this to the test.

I'm a bit surprised at this reaction.

 

[Barrister]

I'm a bit surprised at this reaction.

I would say it's actually par for the course in this instance. Everyone that doesn't agree with him "is in denial."

 

[rjc149]

Dude Darius knows his shyt man. If you can read a mans eyes and his passion for truth then yes life is going to be rough for you.
The just your turn is not meant for possessive guys. AGAIN your perspective is off just as other members have pointed out.
You seem to be doing the same thing you claim to be exposing.
Your still plugged
Write a book. Start a blog. Do a tour.
No one is bitter here. Lol I am quite a happy guy with an obedient girl.
You sir seem bitter about the RP or BP not conforming to your standards. The RP is a TOOLBOX

No one is bitter here, huh. Well I beg to differ. Some are. Some aren't. I wouldn't call you bitter. I just think you spend too much time on the internet consuming toxic red pill material.

You write sh!t like "all women are hoes" and "women want to be choked, pissed on" etc. and then insinuate that I'm somehow a soft "plugged" pvssy for challenging that.

I guess I'll make my "perspective" clear-- I know you think it's cuck and plugged or whatever. But here.

No, not all women are garbage or hoes. Sure, some are. But not all. They're not all seeking to "upgrade" as soon as a guy 2 inches taller than her boyfriend whips his c0ck out. Women can be very happy and content with a man who isn't "Chad" because he adds value to her life in other ways -- not just financially. Not all women are going to sh!t all over you because you're under 6'. You can improve yourself and optimize. You can compensate for physical shortcomings and still attract women. Having healthy relationships with women means you need to be sweet and nurturing sometimes. And at the end of the day, don't focus on the women you cannot get, but rather, on the ones you can.

I'm glad you have an obedient hoe that you can choke and piss on. I'm glad you're happy and content with your relationship. Write a blog? A book? No, I've already spent too much time in this asinine exchange.

 

[BeExcellent]

A few things. Firstly @stringpuller is a married man with a satisfactory (to him) relationship. A couple of other men on this thread are also married and enjoying that dynamic. A relationship is satisfying if it meets the needs of the individuals in that interaction. However that gets defined by those people. I have seen very diverse relationship dynamics from the ultra conservative to the eye openingly liberal. The couple figures that out amongst themselves.

For me I tend to agree strongly with @rjc149 in his views and I historically am a more conservative leaning LTR gal who ends up in relationships with men in the player/playboy archetype bucket. I also am close friends with a number of these type men with whom I’ve never been intimately involved (and a couple who I have been involved with). The youngest in my close circle is 39 and the oldest is 67. They all have kill counts past 500. P*ssy is a commodity for these men.

These men without exception have arrived at the same conclusion. They’ve had quantity. They’ve had and/or are enjoying the kind of abundance men who haven’t experienced it drool over. Orgies, threesomes, three different lays from different women in 12 hours, strippers, centerfolds, you name it. Game on ice to where getting laid is EASY. But it’s empty. At the end of the day it’s empty emotionally.

Once men reach the emptiness epiphany an interesting shift happens. They self sort into two camps.

One camp is the “all women are hos”, “it’s only your turn” camp with all its jaded viewpoints. This group, in my mind consists of men who cannot pair bond, have accepted denial of basic deep human emotional needs and will argue to the death that their perspective is the correct one. They get into relationships perhaps along the way but the depth and meaningfulness of those relationships is foreshortened by their own damage, baggage, scars and beliefs. If their relationship dissolves they simply next and consider that’s just the way of things (and for them it IS) but that is more a product of the attitude they have rather than what is possible. They no longer have the capacity for deep lasting meaningful enduring intimacy and so they rationalize that it does not in fact exist. Or it doesn’t exist in 2021, or in Millenials or in (whatever qualifier you choose) type environment. They qualify and rationalize BECAUSE they can observe real quality relationships in their families, or in someone they know…but that type interaction escapes their reality and must be rationalized or explained away. It doesn’t fit their belief system and as such must be debunked and denied.

The other camp of the men who have had so much sex that it is rendered meaningless at the end of the day wrestles with the question of meaningfulness itself. Ok sex is fun but dealing with crazy women isn’t. Ok so there are warm holes…but who those holes belong to starts to become more important. Quantity gives way to pursuit of quality. These men still have barriers to real intimacy but they acknowledge and tackle that head on, which is no small task. It is an uneven road but it is growth and self development.

For whatever reason I choose men out of this camp. Men who have been there, done that, got the T shirt and are over it. Often these men aren’t sure what real intimacy is supposed to look like in a relationship but they observe it around them and have a desire to figure it out.

My boyfriend is of this group. We were talking about the sex as a commodity thing just last night over dinner. This morning while cuddling he said to me he likes the “warm fuzzy feeling” he gets from our interaction. He loves being loved. He’s so used to crazy selfish self serving women that he didn’t think there was an alternative. And he is a handsome head turning sexy f*cker. But he wants his humanity recognized and embraced beyond the whole f*ck toy bad boy vibe. He’s been objectified sexually (which he enjoyed thoroughly don’t get me wrong) so much that he rolls his eyes at that and wants to be seen as more than a hot man with a nice package. It’s similar to the way beautiful women are…that is the subset of beautiful women who are *over* being valued just for appearance and want to be recognized for the whole package.

And of course for that to happen there must be a “total package” out past physical appearance.

Men who haven’t experienced the kind of abundance I’m talking about cannot fathom sex actually becoming meaningless. And neither can the truly happily marrieds out there who by skill or luck managed to marry young, once, and happily intimately bonded to their partner.

It’s a unique subset of men. With its incumbent unique issues and perspectives.