Independent Women

[The Duke]

Have you ever dated a woman that you considered highly independent? What was it like? Do you consider yourself independent? Do the independent females desire males with
strong personality types? I’m guessing less than 5% of the females I know fit into this category.

 

[hockeyfreak79]

To me it just means they can take care of themselves financially. I do find them to be more a little more secure with themselves, higher self esteem if you will.

On the flip side I've dated financially independent woman that were straight up
co-dependent emotionally.

I dated a extroverted "independent" chick. She was just a c*cky as me. Her gf's always use to boast how they were so independent and they didn't need a man in their life. Yet half the time I'd hear them complain about dates or how they couldn't find real men blah blah blah. Not the chick I was seeing, her friends.

To add to that my chick had a gf roommate. Ha yeah super independent! Mid to late 20's party chicks, in reality they just said it to boost each other's self esteem.

To me if a chick is saying it, it sounds like the male version of: I'm an alpha male. Just my initial thoughts.

 

[mrgoodstuff]

Its usually BS. They have males helping them financially and other ways. Ladies with really good jobs like doctors, lawyers, mid to upper management could say this but they don't.

 

[Once Bitten]

 

[mrgoodstuff]

That's what happens. Entitlement grows without bounds and you have made you her slave.

 

[The Duke]

I was hoping with the amount of strong/alpha/independent types we have on here that I would get some more responses. Maybe some aren't as tough as they sound? It certainly takes a pretty solid guy to be with these types of females.

 

[Once Bitten]

I have a family member who has had this problem. He's 6'4" and she's 5'7". She punched him in the mouth recently. I told him about this forum, but he doesn't mess with computers.
He was afraid to hit her back because she'd divorce him and take his daughter, whom he's close to. Where we live, he would get in trouble for hitting her back. Great times we live in...I think I'd have wrestled her down and told her that better NEVER happen again. Crazy world.

 

[Once Bitten]

I was hoping with the amount of strong/alpha/independent types we have on here that I would get some more responses. Maybe some aren't as tough as they sound? It certainly takes a pretty solid guy to be with these types of females.

Maybe some aren't as tough as they sound? Really? That sounds kind of like someone else who used to post here. Sounds like you're pushing an ego trip on somebody there Howie.

 

[Once Bitten]

My girlfriend makes more money then me, owns her own car, her town house and has helped me out when I needed it, financially. she never holds it against me. she cooks for me, does the dishes and makes sure my needs are met sexually and emotionally. I like it that she doesn't need me for money. it means she likes me for who I am as a person, and physically.

She also pays for dinner.

But this is how most my relationships are. I like women who are responsible adults.

But this is the reality up until this moment.

WOW...you have yourself a fvcking Unicorn! You should send her to the lab and have tests done to see if she can be mass-replicated.
You must be a very respectable, woman-worthy man. My hat's off to you.

 

[Once Bitten]

Howiestern, after your message I know what you meant. I tried to delete an earlier post questioning things but forgot how.
I was coming from a totally different viewpoint. My apologies for dissing on you.

 

[mrgoodstuff]

I have a family member who has had this problem. He's 6'4" and she's 5'7". She punched him in the mouth recently. I told him about this forum, but he doesn't mess with computers.
He was afraid to hit her back because she'd divorce him and take his daughter, whom he's close to. Where we live, he would get in trouble for hitting her back. Great times we live in...I think I'd have wrestled her down and told her that better NEVER happen again. Crazy world.

Locally a dude got taken to jail for a loud ARGUMENT with his wife, no altercation... Also they were getting away with the game of hitting you the face a few times and calling the cops saying you assaulted them. The police over the years are more familiar with that one and will tend to try to see which person is the antagonist or who got damaged.

 

[BeTheChange]

I was hoping with the amount of strong/alpha/independent types we have on here that I would get some more responses. Maybe some aren't as tough as they sound? It certainly takes a pretty solid guy to be with these types of females.

LOL. Shocked to see a veteran come out with a statement like that. So if we don't want to date man-women then we are "intimidated" by their independence. In the words of Eddie Murpgy, GTFO of here with that bullsh*t.

 

[BeExcellent]

But these independent ones all seem to be highly rational, secure, confident, lack affection, not as good/passionate about sechs, and aren't afraid to go by themselves.

By the definition above I am an independent woman myself and so are almost all my female friends. I will share some examples.

Last week I went to dinner alone at an upscale place and sat at the bar for supper as I typically do on business trips. A very pretty blue-eyed redhead seated herself next to me (it was busy) and we got to chatting. She is a 53 y/o widow in the broadcasting industry at an upper management level. We had quite a lot in common and we exchanged numbers because I always enjoy making new friends with like minded people; and women like me are not all that common, especially when you consider we both are traditionalists at heart. She hadn't considered getting married at all until her late husband talked her into it; and sometime after they married he fell terminally ill. She was by his side until he passed and now is raising their teen son on her own. She was an impressive person, charming, warm, loyal, very result oriented, rational, smart, stylish etc. While we were chatting a couple of men came over and joined the conversation. Two business owners themselves. They kept noting how nice it was to meet a couple of women who were engaging, smart, successful and attractive. And we were actually discussing dating and game and these were not blue pill pandering men in any way. It was a sparkling conversation.

Firstly these types of women exist, make no mistake about it. They aren't everywhere but they do exist. Heck, I get the number when I meet one because it's always nice to meet another cool/hot accomplished chick!

The reason there are so few in the market is that women like this tend to get married and stay that way because they have much to offer a man. I was just chatting with one this morning at soccer; very pretty, smart, science degree (Rhodes Scholar) doctor's daughter who married a man while she was studying in England. Her husband too is a physician; they have 6 children, the first of whom was born 9 months after they married. Their eldest is 24 years old. They will celebrate 25 year anniversary together next year. She gave up her ambitions to be a doctor herself to be his wife (just has her mother - a retired nurse - had done for her father.) They are a lovely couple, a lovely family, he a well respected leader of both his family and in our community, she the most graceful feminine woman you could imagine. She always supports, listens to and defers to her husband. Their children are all either teens or young adults who love & respect their parents. Sound to good to be true? It isn't. She after 6 kids looks like she never had any, very pretty, very petite, naturally beautiful inside & out.

This is what an "independent" woman becomes if she finds the right man. She is happy for him to lead. She is happy in the feminine role. She understands her value.

If you want to meet one you need to move in the sorts of circles women like this are in. That will be charity functions, tennis, golf, business organizations, social organizations (church/synagogue/country clubs/raquet clubs/alumni groups/art/wine/food enthusiasts) and so on. You can't expect to meet this kind of woman in a bar on a routine sort of basis - and if you do - the bar is likely a place where a libation or glass of wine is going to set you back around a minimum of $15; and where the average tab per diner is over $100.

It's like anything else. You want to meet successful people you go where successful people are. Places like Gramery Tavern, Balthazar's or Daniel in NYC; places like Nobu or Mastro's in LA. I find that successful people love to socialize and meet other folks like them. It's an opportunity to network, socialize, and share influence. That's if you are older and already established. And if you aren't comfortable in that sort of venue? Then you aren't sufficiently developed to be there. Develop yourself until you are.

Young men should look for women who show ambition, intelligence and academic achievement in a university setting. Notice how none of that has to do with looks.

Physical beauty is great but it is largely genetic. It is the other characteristics that make a woman "independent". In fact beautiful women are sometimes the most dependent of all if they have learned to survive using their appearance as their only, or main, currency. These are the women who the "wall" is cruel for. These are the women whose ability to attract men falls away as they age. An independent woman with her act together who also happens to have some level of good looks retains attractiveness since she offers much more than just her appearance or her body.

Independent means not relying or intending to rely on another person in their lives. So a college student who studies rather than parties because her future is important to her, or a woman who as an older person has demonstrated the ability to support herself, make her own decisions and manage her own affairs with accomplishments to show for it.

Contrast that with women who suggest early and often that a man buy them things, women who were overly spoiled by their parents, daddy's girls, girls who are still dependent on daddy's money etc. Avoid these types at all costs.

Now to @Howiestern and the question at hand. What kind of man do you have to be to pull this independent woman? You need to be at or above her caliber in most if not all categories. Otherwise how can she defer to you? So if she is in upper management - best if you are an executive or entrepreneur. If she is a doctor, best if you are also a doctor or you are in a similar leadership capacity (CEO, lawyer, finance professional, business owner) yourself.

If you are beneath her caliber to a major degree there must be something else about you that is compelling TO HER. Think of Ray Bradbury. For years he toiled away at his typewriter before he made it. How did he find the time? His wife worked multiple jobs for years to support him because she believed in his genius and so she did everything she could to facilitate him reaching his ambitions in life. Without her willingness to sacrifice in that way would he have made it or would he have remained untapped potential?

I disagree about the grouping of "lack of affection" and "poor sex" in with the other qualities. Women who are "independent" in their lives are going to be on a spectrum just as we all are regarding affection and sex. Some can give more and are better in bed, others can give less and perhaps are less freaky in the sheets, but this is not a direct correlation to success level.

I've been reading the Art of Seduction by Robert Green. It is a fascinating book. I consider myself a "Masculine Dandy" as defined by the text. A woman who is feminine and aware of her charms and who enjoys and embraces them...but a woman with enough masculine energy to make men feel very comfortable in her presence, a woman with more rational thought patterns, an intellectual, but with enough sex appeal and heat that things sizzle while sitting quietly. A woman with grace, confidence, passion, success and self-assured-ness. Sex appeal in spades. Confidence, warmth, but also aloofness. A contrast in characteristics which men find intriguing, refreshing and beguiling.

For me a man needs to be sexy before he is anything else. This is because I personally enjoy great sex, and lots of it, but I also am extremely careful about my health which tempers the expression of my sexuality. So I do not have sex quickly or without knowing someone well; and unless he's my husband, condoms are a requirement (as much as I hate them too).

If I don't find him sexy then it doesn't matter how rich or prestigious or handsome a man is. Sex appeal is my number 1 thing. The problem is that many men who have achieved a great deal in life are just simply NOT sexy men. Now if sex appeal is ALL he has to offer then I'm not interested as well because I am not doing charity cases, the unintelligent, the uneducated, the unsuccessful or the unsophisticated. But that is just me.

TLDR:

The biggest 2 traits of an "independent" woman are self-reliance and self esteem. If she has these two things then she is going to operate from a place of freedom and choice relative to other women. That is what I most like about my own position in life. I can choose to associate with men I enjoy strictly because I enjoy them. I don't have a need based agenda. This makes me un-clingy, un-needy and unconcerned about relationship definitions. Men are drawn to women who don't need them just as women are drawn to men who don't need them.

 

[bmp2cpm]

When I was younger, I use to think independent women were great. But now, I'm wiser.

Here's how chemistry between the sexes works. Women crave resources and men crave sex. Women choose a partner who has the set of resources they desire in exchange for sex. Men exchange their resources for sex with the woman that turns them on. Remember, resources can be anything from money, physical protection from unwanted men, a man's time, or just listening to the woman. This is biology. This is evolution. Too many humans put their head in the sand and deny biology.

That being said....woman are programmed for different behavior based on the environment. And, indeed, the environment has changed. Before WWII women were much more dependent on men for resources. WWIII happened, women entered the work force and nothing was ever the same again.Divorce rates were lower and women had a lot less partners. Studies even show women were happier. War sucks.

Nowadays, most women value having complete CONTROL over their resources much more than importing in their resources from a man. If women get too much resources from a man then the woman is no longer independent and that's forbidden in today's society. That's how it is these days. Even women near the poverty level would prefer to be in control of a small amount of resources than get a great deal more resources from a man that they would have to rely on. Women don't want to give up control.

Overall, I think independent women have too much control in any relationship. Independent women are too controlling in bed for my taste. Give me a needy, clingy, dependent woman who tells me she can't live without me and that I "own her" as she comes more times than I can count. However, truly dependent woman are hard to find and come with their own set of quirks. But I'll take those quirks anytime. The man should be in control of the relationship and that can only happened when he is the one bringing in most of the resources.

 

[bmp2cpm]

For me a man needs to be sexy before he is anything else. This is because I personally enjoy great sex, and lots of it, but I also am extremely careful about my health which tempers the expression of my sexuality. So I do not have sex quickly or without knowing someone well; and unless he's my husband, condoms are a requirement (as much as I hate them too).

If I don't find him sexy then it doesn't matter how rich or prestigious or handsome a man is. Sex appeal is my number 1 thing.

You may deny it, but "sex appeal" is the following: 1) genes 2) the particular set of the resources you are looking from a man at that particular point in your life 3) compatible communication skills, based mostly from childhood and 4) the man's preceived sexual value, based in part on observations by other women (either his exes or your girlfriends who know something about the guy).

But at the end of the day....it comes to a man's total resource package. All women have this primal drive. You can dress it up as much as you want, but "sex appeal" is the whole package of the man's resources. So, really, wealth, prestige, and his handsomeness are components of his "overall resource package" score. The very items you are saying are not important, really do count, in a way.

Just felt this needs to be pointed out, as I truly believe EVERY word a woman says must be translated. If a man takes a woman's words at face value, he's in for a world of hurt every time.

 

[BeExcellent]

How many times she cums in bed is dependent on her sexual interest in you, and your skills as a lover

This ^^^.

Be a lover - not a provider.

And this ^^^.

You may deny it, but "sex appeal" is the following: 1) genes 2) the particular set of the resources you are looking from a man at that particular point in your life 3) compatible communication skills, based mostly from childhood and 4) the man's preceived sexual value, based in part on observations by other women (either his exes or your girlfriends who know something about the guy).

But at the end of the day....it comes to a man's total resource package. All women have this primal drive. You can dress it up as much as you want, but "sex appeal" is the whole package of the man's resources. So, really, wealth, prestige, and his handsomeness are components of his "overall resource package" score. The very items you are saying are not important, really do count, in a way.

Just felt this needs to be pointed out, as I truly believe EVERY word a woman says must be translated. If a man takes a woman's words at face value, he's in for a world of hurt every time.

Nope. Sex appeal is visceral. It has nothing whatsoever to do with resources. It has to do with the way a man moves, the way he speaks, how he kisses, his decisiveness in small things, the way he carries himself and how he interacts with a woman. It is highly individual whether one person has sex appeal in the opinion of a potential lover. It has ZERO to do with resources. I can tell whether I have any interest in a sexual encounter with a man pretty instantaneously (and the answer is almost always Meh, nope). From there the interest is tempered by other criteria that can only be gauged by getting to know someone. This gets back to why I don't have sex early on - I haven't had opportunity to get to know the man, and if he wants sex before I feel I know him well enough - which takes time - then logic would indicate that sex is all he is after, and therefore it is in my best interest NOT to engage such a man (who only wants sex) physically. Even if he has sex appeal. I have control over myself and do not get swept away emotionally in beginning encounters. This comes from being a more rather than less rational person. It also comes from internal confidence and security in who I am. From internal validation. Few women are truly internally validated.

The quote about "overall resource package" is that poster's projection of his belief system onto all women. He grossly underestimates women in holding this view, which hands women a tremendous advantage of which he may not be aware. The person who is underestimated in any interaction always holds greater power if they recognize it and utilize it.

Back to last week as an example. Of the two men who approached me and the redhead with whom I was conversing, neither held any of my interest sexually but they were both intelligent and engaging conversationalists. This despite the fact that one gentleman expressed such interest in me, is a millionaire, is age appropriate, is divorced, lives on the waterfront in Seattle, owns his own business, loves sports, is in shape, is tall, is nice looking from an physical standpoint etc. So here is a man with resources out the wazoo compared to the general male population, and he also had self respect and was not a pandering sort of man in any way. He was his own man, made his own decisions, leads his own life, etc. Just not someone I found sexually appealing. Some other woman would find him quite appealing I am sure. I didn't. I wasn't repulsed either, he was engaging, self assured and pleasant. But his "overall resource package" should have had me all excited according to the quote above. Not so.

It all comes back to choice. An "independent" woman has constructed her life in such a way to be able to choose according to wants and desires instead of financial/attention needs because her needs are already met. She will gravitate to men in similar circumstances and will have her own preferences as to what is most important. Mine is sex appeal, as I have noted but that sex appeal needs to be in the context of a man of at least my caliber in other aspects of his life. The number one thing for my best friend was intelligence. She is married to someone successful who holds advanced degrees and business interests in a couple of diverse fields (physics and psychology). She, like the doctor's wife in the previous post I made in this thread happily defers to her man. But she herself is an accomplished senior level executive, perfectly capable of handling her own affairs if she needs to. She CHOOSES to defer and is happy in the feminine role.

I already have enough stuff to control and deal with in life. I have no interest in exerting control over a man. That is the ploy of a woman who needs the man - such that she seeks to make him depend on her by exertion of control. Control freaks always seek control precisely because they feel out of control in their own lives.

I don't have that need. Therefore I expect a man to have his own affairs well in hand and be at my same level in life or above (if he is someone I can learn from - fantastic!) I have zero interest in controlling a man's affairs. That way I can simply be free to enjoy the company of a man I find worthwhile to spend time with. And the men whom I associate with greatly appreciate this attitude. I have been told it is rare I can't tell you how many times.

This is a very different mid set than most women have. That was the entire intent of this post from what I can gather. How an "independent" woman thinks (because yes she most definitely does think) and what motivates her because it is different than most other women. It is also worth recognizing because women like this are the sort that men most enjoy.

Cheers.

 

[mrgoodstuff]

One could say that the ability to acquire resources is a way to measure a man's capability. isn't a capable man attractive? not the resources in and of itself.

Like minded women WOULD be attracted to a brilliant capable man. They also would have accolades of their own being mid to upper level managers, doctors, lawyers, business owners.

However the "hot girl" we chase hear is typically broke or close to it and she wouldn't respect such an impeccable man. She would try to place youth, her body and care free living over discipline, knowledge and wisdom. She would use such a man as a "provider", while she entertains other men more from her social class. These men may be unemployed to under employed " bad boys" who don't give a f, and don't care that the provider takes care of her so long as she's giving him pvssy.

 

[BeExcellent]

Agreed that the ability of a man to become successful is an attractive trait. No question about that in my mind. I have the utmost respect in particular for people who have built themselves up, lost, and then rebuilt their lives again. This demonstrates not only resourcefulness but also resiliency. Both worthy things to recognize. There are men here who have been through hell and came through on the other side. Forged by the fire. Stronger for it.

Water seeks its own level as many here have said and understand. So keep getting better yourselves and your opportunities will expand with your own growth, both personally and professionally.

 

[Pandora]

Nope. Sex appeal is visceral. It has nothing whatsoever to do with resources. It has to do with the way a man moves, the way he speaks, how he kisses, his decisiveness in small things, the way he carries himself and how he interacts with a woman. It is highly individual whether one person has sex appeal in the opinion of a potential lover. It has ZERO to do with resources. I can tell whether I have any interest in a sexual encounter with a man pretty instantaneously (and the answer is almost always Meh, nope). From there the interest is tempered by other criteria that can only be gauged by getting to know someone.

Cheers.

This is something i have suspected for a while now. Sex appeal is visceral and random. What one woman deems sex worthy may not be what another woman deems sex worthy. Sex appeal is highly idiosyncratic to that woman. This is why you can be an awesome catch but for some reason many women just will not be interested. They may acknowledge that you are good looking, they may want to hang out with you but they will not give up sex because that visceral level sexual desire is not there. The woman in many cases just does not know why. This leads to frustration in the man. Some cases of the friend zone are because the female recognizes that the guy is awesome and attractive, but for some reason does not get wet for him. This concept is the most difficult concept for me and most men to understand. It seems totally illogical.


This is why i try not to take rejection personally ( im getting better at it each day). Most of the time it is not personal. Some of the women who go on dates with me recognize that i am good looking and a catch but they just don't feel the tingles. But many others do recognize that i am a catch and ALSO feel the tingles. The best advice i have ever seen on this forum is to keep filtering and nexting a high volume of women until you find the hot female that feels that visceral desire for you. It takes a while but they are out there.

As a side note i have a HB8 female friend. I am close to her. She once had sex with a guy who had been pursuing her for years. She had sex with him because she wanted to know why she wasnt sexually attracted to him. This guy was as alpha as they come trust me. Good looking guy too. But for some reason she didnt feel the tingles and she couldnt understand why. She ended having good sex with him but she still was not interesting in him at all and never touched him again. This guy eventually settled down with a beautiful woman who did see his value and felt the tingles. I have also been in situations with female friends that kiss me and just realize that the tingles are still not there but they cant stop hanging out with me because i am so much fun. So i remain permanently in the friend zone. They cant help it. Either the chemistry is there or it isnt.This is how the female mind works guys lol. Women are complicated but we just gotta keep things simple by nexting like crazy.

 

[mrgoodstuff]

This is something i have suspected for a while now. Sex appeal is visceral and random. What one woman deems sex worthy may not be what another woman deems sex worthy. Sex appeal is highly idiosyncratic to that woman. This is why you can be an awesome catch but for some reason many women just will not be interested. They may acknowledge that you are good looking, they may want to hang out with you but they will not give up sex because that visceral level sexual desire is not there. The woman in many cases just does not know why. This leads to frustration in the man. Some cases of the friend zone are because the female recognizes that the guy is awesome and attractive, but for some reason does not get wet for him. This concept is the most difficult concept for me and most men to understand. It seems totally illogical.

Could it be that you are carrying extra weight or something real simple that simply dampens any desire they may have?

This is why i try not to take rejection personally ( im getting better at it each day). Most of the time it is not personal. Some of the women who go on dates with me recognize that i am good looking and a catch but they just don't feel the tingles. But many others do recognize that i am a catch and ALSO feel the tingles. The best advice i have ever seen on this forum is to keep filtering and nexting a high volume of women until you find the hot female that feels that visceral desire for you. It takes a while but they are out there.

Is there something about the way you are behaving to the ones that don't get the tingles that you can pinpoint? I know ALL females won't get them. I'm just wondering if you figured out if there was a quality or something that could be measured that causes this in the others or some other personality trait they liked.

As a side note i have a HB8 female friend. I am close to her. She once had sex with a guy who had been pursuing her for years. She had sex with him because she wanted to know why she wasnt sexually attracted to him. This guy was as alpha as they come trust me. Good looking guy too. But for some reason she didnt feel the tingles and she couldnt understand why. She ended having good sex with him but she still was not interesting in him at all and never touched him again. This guy eventually settled down with a beautiful woman who did see his value and felt the tingles. I have also been in situations with female friends that kiss me and just realize that the tingles are still not there but they cant stop hanging out with me because i am so much fun. So i remain permanently in the friend zone. They cant help it. Either the chemistry is there or it isnt.This is how the female mind works guys lol. Women are complicated but we just gotta keep things simple by nexting like crazy.

Was he built as per her sexual spec, or she has a certain "range" of a guy that she likes.