Would like to have your analyses, if you have the patience to read through

[pancakepalace]

If she, or for that matter anyone else, were to try to seduce me, I'd know in an instant that she's different from me, irreconcilably. And it'll be put paid to in an instant.

What? So you don't try to seduce and you will not go out with girls who would try to seduce you? What's left. Are your parents going to set you up for marriage or something? I don't get it

 

[NewMan]

If I may....

* Your trying to apply logic - where logic has no place - i.e. women.

* Your hiding behind a wall - namely you throw up the smokescreen of "Over Analyize" - that sounded like I did several years ago. You've been hurt in the past - and now your on the defense. Sorry - there si no defense for a beautiful woman.

* you assumed far to much of her. You assumed she had the same moral base as yours. You assumed she would think and act like you - you assumed she would call you on that Sunday - why? she had a BF. You would assume she wanted more from you than a work friend. If you really just wanted to be friends - then you would have not been hurt like you were.... you would not have been so into her and would not have posted here.


You made numerous mistakes with this woman. If you hang around this place long enough you will see this.

Now for her.....

She was lonely perhaps. She had no one to talk to during her long work day and you provided relief.

She backed off for a number fo reasons. 1) you got bent out of shape when she didn't email or call. 2) you asked to move. 3) your mood swings based on her 4) your pressure - I can feel the pressure from here - so she probably didi as well.

She is a typical woman.

Her world is run by emotions not logic.

In these past few weeks you've know her - what have you done for yourself? have you travelled anywhere? seen anything? done anything?

 

[rookieposter]

I wish to thank all of you who replied and offered their insights and advice. It surely gave me more angles to think from, and brought greater clarity.

I especially find the readings of NewMan and GangsterOfLove to be very pertinent!

ApocaypseCow, I appreciate that you posted though I came down rudely at you. I'll reply to your questions in the next post.

you assumed far to much of her. You assumed she had the same moral base as yours.You assumed she would think and act like you

Both perhaps true. Though, I admit it might not be very wise to do that.

But I guess it's kind of an unavoidable handicap -- unless you have copious data, you can never predict accurately how someone will think or act. It's certainly a tall order while you are still in the process of collecting that data; though eventually things do fall in place.

you assumed she would call you on that Sunday

I didn't. I'm not that gullible a fellow. I again knew that 95% she wouldn't call.

My point of insistence is simply that I never say that I'd do something and not do it later. At least not without offering an apology.

In my opinion, anyone who's clear in his/her mind and knows what he/she is doing, would make that call, and inform that, upon deliberation, he/she decided against proceeding any further. Anyone who doesn't do that simply gets labelled as a confused mind in my book.

You would assume she wanted more from you than a work friend.

This is putting the cart before the horse. I wanted more than just a work friendship, which is hardly the same as my assuming that she would have wanted it. My idea when I asked her out was merely to continue all those conversations that I had to interrupt in the cubicle because of work. I'd never have been heavy with her if she had come -- I am a very cautious person in general, and measure all my steps.

If you really just wanted to be friends - then you would have not been hurt like you were.... you would not have been so into her and would not have posted here.

I never said that I wanted to be 'just friends' with her. I liked her a lot, found things in common, and I have told that I was already romantically getting involved with her, and surely the turn of events hurt me, hurt more than I had thought initially it would.

I merely offered to remain as close friends -- still not 'just friends' -- after I knew that she was already seeing someone, that too provided she wanted it. It wasn't an afterthought -- that was what I had in mind from the beginning. It wasn't my 'gameplan' for this particular case, as some would want to believe -- that's what my general philosophy about life is. I don't hang around with people who are 'just friends' -- people are either close friends for me or no friends at all.

She backed off for a number fo reasons. 1) you got bent out of shape when she didn't email or call. 2) you asked to move. 3) your mood swings based on her 4) your pressure - I can feel the pressure from here - so she probably didi as well.

That observation about the pressure is very interesting for me! I don't think anybody else in my workplace noticed anything abnormal in my behavior though I guess you are correct that she might have felt the pressure.


Though I must clarify that it was for nothing other than following common codes of civility -- I don't know why I should feel strongly about it, but I do. I was initially quite angry with her, but later when I found that she wasn't deliberately behaving so and was trying to make up in other ways, I just thought that she was just a child and forgave her. I started having friendly/teasing chats with her. But somehow things just got out of hand, though I guess none of us actually may have wanted that to happen.

Mind you, I didn't move away to punish her. I did punish her (just reactively) in the first week when I strictly cut down on any talk that wasn't work related, and I know from her body language of at least one day that she was completely shattered. But towards the end I acted merely to protect myself . Protect myself from those things which perhaps weren't very intentional on her part, but came across as slights for me. I know, I was probably oversensitive, which I understand may be unwise but, unfortunately, is still part of my DNA.

In these past few weeks you've know her - what have you done for yourself? have you travelled anywhere? seen anything? done anything?

Haven't travelled. I am not a very outgoing person. Though I do plan to go and meet my friends in another city perhaps coming fortnight.

My usual interests are playing chess online, following professional chess tournaments, and a bit of reading. Each of these weekends I had a scheduled match from a tournament that we are playing in our internet club where we also participate in message boards. There are participants from all continents there and we have a good time!

Apart from this, I go for long walks everyday. Have actually doubled that after all this -- walk for at least 2 hrs everyday now. On weekends and nights drown myself in music.

I also read Shaw's Man and Superman this while. I find it surprising that though this site is dedicated to Don Juan wannabes there is never a mention of this play, in which Don Juan actually makes an appearance. I think it's a highly recommended read on questions of attraction and romantic relationships, apart from being incredibly entertaining.

Bingo ! and here is the article:

Do you really think that conceding me to be a genius (as that article talks) merely to prove that I'm a failure, is good bargain for you?

And why are people assuming that only I was the one who lost something here?

I'm willing to learn about my mistakes. I thank all of you who pointed out things. But was there anything that I did correctly too, or was there nothing?

 

[Golden Arms]

Originally posted by rookieposter

Do you really think that conceding me to be a genius (as that article talks) merely to prove that I'm a failure, is good bargain for you?

What ? Who's talking about bargaining? It's just that the article has information that you might find useful; that's why I searched and dug it up for you. Nobody called you a failure either.

 

[pancakepalace]

You say you want some data to make a more profound analysis. The problem is, that this data comes from two people. You and her. Quantum mechanics are nothing compared to the complexity here. You both have baggage from life and different experiences. Simply truly understanding yourself is almost impossible. From plato : Socrates: know thyself...

Trying to make an empirical scientific study of any personal interaction is problematic in itself as far as I am concerned. A human brain is so complex...two interacing nevermind!! My god, limitless. There is no way you can ever really know what someone feels about you and vice-versa. Even in a deep long term relationship with great communication you can never really know.

Love isn't chess. You can't win a girls heart like you would get a nice middle game with a Karo-Cann defense or something.

You gotta follow your heart, take chances, use some GENERAL guidelines you find here and personalise them as you see fit.

I understand you expect certain moral ethics and so one for someone and you have high standards. When she didn't call to cancel this obvioulsy was seen as very bad in your book. If so, then end of story, just write her off.

Why post here if she isn't fullfiling your moral expectations anyhow. You already note that she isn't good enough for you.

I have one advice. Do not get so worked-up about details so quickly. Don't get mad because she didn't call. Wait a few days and see what her reaction is. Then you will be able to tell how she feels. If you come in right away in a bad mood you will never know because you are shifting the situation too quickly. You won't know if she feels bad because your are mad or because she didn't call.

 

[NewMan]

But I guess it's kind of an unavoidable handicap -- unless you have copious data, you can never predict accurately how someone will think or act. It's certainly a tall order while you are still in the process of collecting that data; though eventually things do fall in place.

That's the point. Your not dealing with Acid, magnesium and a bunsen burner in a lab now. Your dealing with a woman - so expect ANYTHING. Thinking in terms of DATA and collecting results - is what's got you into this position. Your going to have to stop thinking in terms of balck OR white - right OR wrong. There is such things as Grey areas. Not everything is so clear cut and easily placed in little jars with labels.

My point of insistence is simply that I never say that I'd do something and not do it later. At least not without offering an apology.

In my opinion, anyone who's clear in his/her mind and knows what he/she is doing, would make that call, and inform that, upon deliberation, he/she decided against proceeding any further. Anyone who doesn't do that simply gets labelled as a confused mind in my book.

Ok - but she's not you. But she told you she had a BF - and you didn't listen. It was obvious she didn't want to meet - but you forced your number on her. It's not as much of a big deal to her - since if you think about it, she already told you NO - I WILL NOT MEET YOU.

My idea when I asked her out was merely to continue all those conversations that I had to interrupt in the cubicle because of work.

OK - in the REAL world -0 guys don't ask girls out from work to continue work conversations. So - she didn't give you any ideas. She told you no. She didn't use your number. That was her telling you - she is not interested. You should have taken the point - and not taken it personally - and just gotten on with your life.

It really isn't the end of the world - these things are really no big deal. All the things you mentioned are very, very, petty. In the grand scheme of things they make no difference.

That's what dating is. You throw your hook out there - and you move on if nothign bites.

Mind you, I didn't move away to punish her. I did punish her (just reactively) in the first week when I strictly cut down on any talk that wasn't work related, and I know from her body language of at least one day that she was completely shattered. But towards the end I acted merely to protect myself . Protect myself from those things which perhaps weren't very intentional on her part, but came across as slights for me. I know, I was probably oversensitive, which I understand may be unwise but, unfortunately, is still part of my DNA.

Yup - oversensitive. Because your taking these things as personal. Your holding her accountable - your hold her to your ethics/code. That is unfair. You'll never be able to do that.

One of the beautiful things about a relationship, is that you get to learn things from another person. No one is the same as you - and you get to view things from a different perspective.

I was similar to you - uintil I meet someone who opened my eyes to a world beyond my personal expectations.

try it sometime - you may surprise yourself.

Keep hiding behind that wall - and you will be a lonely guy.

And why are people assuming that only I was the one who lost something here?

Because I gurantee she's not pondering what went wrong between the both of you. Or why you choice to move away. She probably is just getting on with it.

 

[JackPrescott]

She has a boyfriend. While you are up, late at night thinking about her, he is positioning her shapely legs high (holding her ankles) towards her head, as he is reaching his climax for maximum penetration, as she nears her own orgasm.

She is not thinking of you then, I can assure you.

 

[rookieposter]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Contd from above.....

Originally posted by ApocalypseCow2
And I don't care what country you're from or what you think about the country I'm from, that's what's going on here.

Firstly, I've already explained above that it was a mistake on my part to have brought any question of nationality into the picture. I apologize once more.

It isn't about what country you come from. I was just disgusted at the opinion you expressed. Mind you, I'm not disgusted with you -- only the opinion you expressed to which I reacted. Your other opinions make more sense, and will make even more if you make an earnest effort. Buddy, I'm simply soliciting to utilize the processing capacity of your brains -- not to get a dump of your prejudices about life.

I come from India. If you are aware of the social norms here, it's considered very frownable to even touch a woman in public. I'll just give an example -- recently a female colleague of mine and myself were in the US. As is the social custom there, some male colleagues would give her a hug when we met. She'd quite oblige. One day, after giving a hug, one of them asked us : why don't you people give her a hug too. One Indian-origin American friend replied -- well you can do that to her because you are NOT an Indian; if we do it, it would be scandalous. And all of us laughed.

The point here is: here things don't get physical so quickly as you'd find over there. Moreover, with conservative, family-oriented men and women here, premarital sex is ruled out in 90% of cases. Things are changing in that direction even in America, for that matter. All fashions change.

I have nothing to say about what is better or worse. The thing is your tastes in life may be different from ours, and you can do us a favor by not assuming that all your tastes have to be ours as well. And we can get on perfectly well.

Originally posted by ApocalypseCow2
The point of my question was to pose a thought experiment. You're making it seem like you just want to be this girl's friend and have no sexual interest in her. I call "Shenanigans", because it's obvious you want her. Have you ever obsessed over a guy friend like you're obsessing over this girl? I'm guessing the answer is "no".

Well, all attraction between men and women is sexual. Because they are different sexes. I never denied I had a romantic interest in her, I certainly wasn't trying to be her girlfriend. But what I realize and you don't is that first of all you have to like the person, value him or her, and that is just what a friendship is all about. Whom I consider a friend depends on my judgment, not the other person's; whether it takes a romantic direction or not is more a prerogative of the other person. I respect her right to make her own choices, and the choice could very well be not having a romantic interest in me. If I can't trust her with her choices, she'd hardly be good enough for me, and make choices for me later.

Originally posted by ApocalypseCow2
I know your plan because I've tried it myself, and so have a helluva lot of other guys on these boards. You want to be her friend, wait until her relationship with her current guy ends, and then be there to catch her on the rebound because you're "such a nice guy."

Well, if your plan is of such ubiquitous applicability and use, I'm sure you regret not having filed for a patent on it right away. You'd have become a millionaire by now, from the royalty earned.

To be frank, I don't bother about what happens to the other guy (though we are acquainted and he has been quite civil to me). If their relationship ends it'll be under its own weight. I certainly didn't wish to catch her on a rebound. The rebound phase never lasts foreover, and whatever is caught during that phase quickly comes unstuck.

Further, I have hardly been "such a nice guy". In fact, on some occasions she even asked me why am I so rude (with others mostly) at times? She considers me to be quite presumptuous. She has even been telling others: 'Look at his tone. He has been biting people's heads off since morning today'.

The problem is, you couldn't quite pull it off. You were *well* on your way to becoming her friend. If you played it cool, you coulda had a nice work buddy. Maybe she would have introduced you to some of her girl friends. But nooo, you had to sabotage the relationship as a way of getting back at her. Since her unavailability hurt you, you're trying to hurt her back by ending the friendship. (Really, all you're doing is making it easier for her to drop you like a bad habit).

If I deserved to be dropped, the sooner it happened the better. I was not trying to get back at her; I don't have anything against her. The worst I'd do is to ignore her; I'm not about to injure or harm. I merely wanted to save myself the hurt of my (perceived) slights.

And I quite feel it was a good decision to move away. I don't feel any expectations now, and would very soon get over the whole thing. My friendship doesn't come free, if she cares to have it let her cultivate it (at a cost) -- there is no need for me to offer it on a platter.

If you want help, people here are more than willing to give you good advice. But you're being very unclear in what it is you want out of this situation.

I thank you for the kindness, and appreciate it very much. My want from the situation was only to get a better understanding of it, which objective was reasonably served by the light thrown by several people here. I guess, there is hardly anything better to be expected out of the given situation. As someone said : 'There are only two tragedies in life. One is not getting what you want; and the other is getting it. And it is the second which is the really great tragedy'. I, thankfully, managed to avoid that.

What ? Who's talking about bargaining? It's just that the article has information that you might find useful; that's why I searched and dug it up for you. Nobody called you a failure either.

Come on, Golden Arms. I was kidding! That article was insightful. Some of the things are very applicable to me, some are not. Which just goes to show that I'm not an unmixed genius. (Will try to do better next time!)

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A note for JackPrescott : I'll be able to appreciate your mental gymnastics more, if you don't post them here. Spare us.