women are not YOUR protector

[Mr. Me]

>> You cannot generalize the behavior of ALL women. That is like generalizing the behavior off all men. There are no two human beings alike.>>

Though no two people are alike, human behavior and human psychology is what they share in common, so one can generalize but then zero in more accurately from there based on observation, as what it appears to be on the surface may not be what it really is. The problem these discussions have is that there are factors not considered or recognized. For example, when you ask why women remain loyal to incarcerated convicts as an argument against the notion that women leave situations that don't serve them well, factors may be that they are insecure about finding another man, fear of the unknown, low self esteem, don't wish to be "alone", they may be hooked to the extreme "bad boy" qualities of their man, religious reasons, staying married because of the kids, etc.

Same goes for a guy who's wife gains 250 pounds. If he wanted to marry an obese woman, he would've married an obese woman. If his wife simply lets herself go and he finds her unattractive or even repulsive but remains with her, we have to look at why. Is he insecure? Would a divorce cripple him? Is he fearful of being alone? Is he cheating on the side? Has he himself let himself go so as to be unattractive himself? Is it just easier for him to do nothing? Does he feel more secure that now she'll never leave him?

IOW, the situation does serve them yet to some sufficient degree, even if the reason is dysfunctional. In fact, two dysfunctional people in a relationship can be the glue that keeps that relationship going for ages. It may not be the best relationship behind closed doors, but it will have length.

But emotionally healthy people will look to reverse bad situations, and if they can't be reversed, they will withdraw for their own survival's sake.

I think of the 74 year old widow I talked to recently who said of her late husband whom she was with for fifty years, "He was a good provider. And a stallion!".

 

[Colossus]

There's a lot of fluffy pejorative about how "supportive" strong women are for their Men, as if they owed their success to this "support". What does this nebulous "support" entail? Does this mean a Man cannot be successful without a woman? No, but it does imply that women have a demonstrable desire to be associated with that success. They want to be the wife of the Man other women want to ƒuck and other men want to be. That might come off as me thinking women have an egoistic need for this; I don't think so because even the most humble of women will still see the inherent value of a Man in such a position. It's not so much ego (I'm sure there are cases of this), but rather our simple capacity as human beings to make unconscious comparisons and naturally want what's best for us.

Yes. I'm glad you have the education to be succinct about this subject. Guys, like it or not, so much of a man's value comes down to accomplishment. This is just the way it is. You can have all sorts of amazing attributes, but if you accomplished nothing, then those attributes are like uncashed checks. They hold the promise, but where are the goods?

The 'Quality Woman' myth is becoming increasingly annoying here. I used to use it myself until i realized it is really a bunch of subjective B.S. I havent really kept up with this thread because, as usual, it has turned into Icky banter.

I've said this before, and I'll say it again: Almost everything said on this site is a generalizion to a degree. We talk about WOMEN and MEN. Some people just cant wrap their heads around that. I'm not saying anyone here in particular, but a viewpoint is almost always attacked with a "not ALL women are like that", or a "You're wrong!! ALL women ARE like that!!" We know what we know based off our own experiences and observations. That's why some men here are jaded, cynical, and nihilistic about women (or just 'REALISTIC' in their words) and others are more balanced and objective.

At any rate, good OP by Joekerr.

 

[BlackWidow]

I must agree to the general topic at hand here. Women aren't the protectors. I've been disappointed countless times by guys turning out to be AFC. They are too afraid/insecure to take the reins so they in turn get lead around until the dead weight's too much and they get dumped on their ass. How sad/pathetic is that?

If I wanted to be a protector, I'd have a child. My biology tells me to protect what I've birthed, not what I'm dating...

 

[joekerr31]

However, I do not agree with women taking off at the first hardship or not opening up to your wife or you must ALWAYS provide, support and provision at ALL times. I know of many in the contrary. And one thing these men whose wives never leave them have in common , they are MEN.

That explains why real MEN can more or less do eveything in the contrary of what is told not to do and keep their women at bay. Tricks and ploys do not work. It is that simple. BEing a MAN emcompasses all you need to know. You cannot teach AFC's tricks and tactics of MEN. What must be taught is to be a MAN.

man you guys are driving me crazy

you are saying the same thing as im saying but then saying 'but your wrong.'

argh!

when you say 'men who are REAL men' what do you think you are saying?
ill tell you what you are saying - a man who is the protector. who doesn't look to his woman to protect him, to keep him 'up', to keep him being 'a man'.

i've stated women will stick by your side through a lot of stuff. but they will not stick by your side if you require them to lead for prolonged periods of time or if you have low / no earning potential for a long period of time.

 

[joekerr31]

Yes. I'm glad you have the education to be succinct about this subject. Guys, like it or not, so much of a man's value comes down to accomplishment. This is just the way it is. You can have all sorts of amazing attributes, but if you accomplished nothing, then those attributes are like uncashed checks. They hold the promise, but where are the goods?

which comes back to the protector / provider thing. that is what women are searching for above all else.

and that is why they detest having to be it. the LAST thing they are looking for is a man who can't protect and provide. and when they have to assume that role its like a confirmation that they picked a 'loser'.

men also know this instinctively. a man who has a good friend, priest, psychologist, whatever - a man who has confidents that he can trust in - knows instinctively to discuss his deeper insecurity-based issues with them and NOT his woman.

women cringe when they see their man acting weak.

get your 'strength' from anyone BUT your woman.

 

[joekerr31]

I must agree to the general topic at hand here. Women aren't the protectors. I've been disappointed countless times by guys turning out to be AFC. They are too afraid/insecure to take the reins so they in turn get lead around until the dead weight's too much and they get dumped on their ass. How sad/pathetic is that?

If I wanted to be a protector, I'd have a child. My biology tells me to protect what I've birthed, not what I'm dating...

black, thank you for being honest.

its 100% true, a woman will NEVER EVER EVER protect her man the way she protects her children. whereas a man will protect his wife in the SAME manner that he protects his children.

the ONLY people a woman will ever truly protect is her children (and even then they sometimes dont).

now, in the name of full disclosure, men are just human beings. men have tough times in life and need support as well. men wrestle with life at times and need a 'protector' sometimes - someone who sees they are at a down / weak point and helps them get back to their strong male self.

but that person is NOT a woman. not only does she have NO CLUE how to help you (because she doesn't really understand how men think), she also has no desire to do it (she is not a protector). you must get that 'support' that 'protection' from other people, NOT your woman.

your woman can help you feel good about life by stroking your ego, giving you sex, etc. but she will NEVER take the reigns and let you sit back for a bit and collect yourself while she keeps the train moving forward.

once again, we are talking generalities here. some women will do this, but even the best of women will only do it for a short period of time.

 

[Señor Fingers]

I dont know man. When some of you "generalize", you do tend to take it to the extreme, and these newjacks take everything you say as gospel.

I'm not saying that you shouldn't prepare folks for disaster, because lord knows we all been there... but women aren't really the source of the problem. Your cynicism seems a little very misdirected.

Human nature is the real issue here.

Lets face it, as a whole, we are not the most noble creatures on the planet. Neither man nor woman is immune from being a selfish and miserable assh0le at some point in their lives. So why focus on the flaws of one sex?

We get burned repeatedly until we learn discernment.. not just for our romantic interests, but for all our adult relationships.

If anything we should learn to spot the behavior patterns of dysfunctional people, that way we can avoid disaster in the first place.

Thing is that many of us ignore the signs even when we know better.. our optimism gets the best of us and we project a very unrealistic image onto our friends and lovers. We think they let us down, but the whole time, they were just being who they were.

Good women are out there. You have to plow through a lot of worthless hoes to find them, but they do exist. Is that a guarantee that you will never get hurt by them? Nope..

Love is a gamble sometimes, but you stand a better chance at happiness if you know how to work the odds in your favor.

-----

With regards to the original post, I could not agree more.

 

[STR8UP]

A+

And a woman WILL take the helm. For survival of the relationship, if nothing else!

Yea, for a VERY short period of time, and then she will begin to RESENT the fact that she has to assume this role, and promptly dump your ass as soon as she finds a new branch, hehe

 

[Señor Fingers]

It's all really simple.

Lover's Love = Conditional
Mother's Love = Unconditional
Confusing the two = Disaster

 

[STR8UP]

Your ex is proof that you need to better qualify who you choose to love

That's the catch-all solution espoused by most women and sadly some men too.

"You need to learn how to QUALIFY".

"You need to find a QUALITY woman".

Well no sh!t.

If it were a matter of weeding through 20 women to find one that was decent, it would be one thing. But it's more like weeding through 100 to find one. That's a lot of women to meet to find "quality". And the sad thing is I HAVE found a few of these women, and most of the time they are taken.

 

[STR8UP]

What exactly are women offering again?

Don't expect this, don't expect that.. what positive things DO I get to expect?

I don't need her praise, i don't need her protection, i validate myself with 'inner game' etc etc... then I have to offer her protection and emotional support and all this other stuff... what the hell is she providing me in a LTR? MAYBE sex without a sandpaper condom that i had to train her to perform properly because most don't have a clue without instruction? I don't even want kids.

This stuff sounds more and more like the only real solution is a series of short term relationships. I'm a commodity to them where they can lose interest in me in a heartbeat, so I might as well treat them as a commodity too.

Nailed it!

 

[STR8UP]

Women SHOULD leave losers. They SHOULD do what's in their best interest. And sometimes sticking by their man IS what's in their best interest. I get into this discussion with STR8UP a lot about how a Man must stay on top of his game AT ALL TIMES.

By far the most important ingredient in having a happy, healthy relationship with a woman would be that the man needs to BE A MAN. Everything else is details.

 

[Mr. Me]

But it's more like weeding through 100 to find one. That's a lot of women to meet to find "quality". And the sad thing is I HAVE found a few of these women, and most of the time they are taken.

That's the way it is.

According to my memory, the ones that last the longest, they trend to call each other "best friends."

That's how they may explain it, but don't be fooled by their causal reasoning. There are probably other dynamics at work. "Best friends" don't usually have romantic moments together, for example, nor do many people usually lust after or desire sexual relationships with their best friends, so we can't take the "best friends" statement to mean that their alleged friendship is the driving force that keeps them together.

Even burdening friends, not lovers, with one's problems, if it's constant, drives friends away after some time. Nobody likes being around sad people too long. "Hey buddy, I've been listening to you complaining for a year now about this, and you're my pal and all that and I've been giving you my ear and you know I love ya and have your back, but c'mon! When are you going to do something about it and pull yourself up?"

 

[joekerr31]

tom cruise - insane. manic. eccentric. scientologist. arrogant. opinionated. basically an *sshole. women love him. why? cuz he doesn't need them. he's in control of his life (even if his life is out of control).

owen wilson - drug addict. mental issues. funny. nice guy. down to earth. woman leaves him. why? no woman wants to mother (ie. protect) her man.

i dont care if you are the f*cking president, this stuff holds true.

 

[Luthor Rex]

the line gets crossed when a woman no longer feels she can turn to you for protection because you now rely on her more than she relies on you.

the big mistake most men make, even those who play protector in the beginning, is that over time they slowly, every so slowly, start to interact with their gf/wife as they would their mother. they slowly start to burder her with their inner thoughts, with the stresses of their life, etc. - they start to show her more nad more how 'human' they are (ie. weak).

and while a woman will be responsive to this short term (because it makes her feel that she is developing a bond with you), if she sees to much she starts to get buyers remorse - she starts to think 'oh man. I never thought he was this weak. what's he going to be like in 10 years? i better get out of this now."

like i say, general rule of thumb, turn to anyone BUT your woman for support. i mean, go see a psychologist once a week, go for beers with the guys, anyone BUT your woman.

I agree with everything you've said. Letting a woman into this part of your life is dangrous at best and should probably be avoided all together.

The problem is: we really are human beings. But a woman doesn't want a man, she wants a superman. She wants something unreal.

Until and unless something changes joekerr's advice is the best. Really though, there should be some way to put a foot up women's azz's and make the realize that men are human beings and that's ok.

Until then... *sigh*

 

[guru1000]

We all agree on one point, being a MAN keeps the woman at bay.

Our ideas of being a MAN is GENERALLY the same with some differences.

There are men who hold the feminine role in a relationship. I for one am not OK with that. I am called the Man's man and I have lost alot of women because of this fact. Frankly I could care less.

However, a MAN has strengths and weakness. We are human, not machines.

To be secure with your weakness and not be a SQUABBLING BABY is key. How you express your weakness is a deal maker or breaker.

At the end of the day, I can express my weakness to a woman. If she is not secure with me as a whole, I tell her "Have a nice day."

I dont follow rules of how to be a Man. I am. In saying that, I am secure to act in away way I choose.

My point of view is if I want to open up to a women, I will. If I have downtime , I have no problems expressing it. I don't follow RULES OF CONDUCT. If the woman chooses not to accept me in my weak times, I am first to walk away because she is NO GOOD.

At the end of the day, Being a Man cannot be taught. It has to be experienced.

 

[Mr. Me]

But a woman doesn't want a man, she wants a superman. She wants something unreal.

I'd say it's EXACTLY that she wants a man. What's being asked of the man does not require any "super" ability but for him to display more of the "masculine" traits in him rather then the "feminine" traits he carries.

It's those masculine traits that she's seeking to be predominant in her man, not the feminine traits.

Being a human being does mean we, at times, are down. But that doesn't mean we *need* to vent this to others or need their support, strokes and kisses on our boo boos. If we really do wish to talk, there are buddies, shrinks, mom, dad, brothers-in-law, bartenders and barbers. We don't, for example, need our co-workers to stroke us at work when we're down. We feel better about work by pulling ourselves out of whatever rut we're in and re-invigorating ourselves and being productive and doing our job well. Men feed off of and grow from challenge. That's the masculine trait.

 

[MacAvoy]

Sorry just jumping into the thread late:

the big mistake most men make, even those who play protector in the beginning, is that over time they slowly, every so slowly, start to interact with their gf/wife as they would their mother. they slowly start to burder her with their inner thoughts, with the stresses of their life, etc. - they start to show her more nad more how 'human' they are (ie. weak).

and while a woman will be responsive to this short term (because it makes her feel that she is developing a bond with you), if she sees to much she starts to get buyers remorse - she starts to think 'oh man. I never thought he was this weak. what's he going to be like in 10 years? i better get out of this now."

like i say, general rule of thumb, turn to anyone BUT your woman for support. i mean, go see a psychologist once a week, go for beers with the guys, anyone BUT your woman.

This actually makes a tonne of sense. However if you end up in a LTR / marriage, can you really get away with not sharing with her? As I think so, I think YES, it would keep you mysterious, aloof, manly strong, all the qualities that attracted her to you in the first place, then over time, you start to act caring and lose attractiveness.

I'm definately going to take a mental note of this and will do an experiment in a year or two when I'm in a LTR again.

 

[BlackWidow]

By far the most important ingredient in having a happy, healthy relationship with a woman would be that the man needs to BE A MAN. Everything else is details.

Amen brother. AMEN. I can't stress how much this is true. BAM!
When a man's a man, holy ƒuck. The woman just melts. I want to do just about anything to and for my man because he is exactly what I expect a man should be. Beautiful beautiful balance.

 

[reset]

We get burned repeatedly until we learn discernment.. not just for our romantic interests, but for all our adult relationships.

If anything we should learn to spot the behavior patterns of dysfunctional people, that way we can avoid disaster in the first place.

Thing is that many of us ignore the signs even when we know better.. our optimism gets the best of us and we project a very unrealistic image onto our friends and lovers. We think they let us down, but the whole time, they were just being who they were.

I am learning this. Strange as I became more aware of women's dysfunction I became more aware of my own, and other men I know. It's weird when you get new insight to people you've known for years, but that's how growing awareness seems to work. What's old is new.

This thread has just about everything. What I'm picking up from it is that women are attracted to you for whatever reason. As long as you are the same person that she was attracted to, she stays attracted. If you become someone else, she loses attraction. That's a tough thing to deal with because we all have our weak moments, and it does NOT make you less of a man to have challenges in life.

If you can't open up to a girl and share some of the stuff you are going through, then I don't see how you could have that emotional bonding joekker referred to earlier. Basically you're just having sex and laughing. But even in that case I guess there's bonding, but it's superficial. But what do I know, I'm here to learn.

I believe that whatever you think and the type of vibe you put out, is the type of vibe that will come back to you. Negative vibe, negative circumstances, negative people. When you're in that mindset, do you REALLY think a positive influence can break through? No. Only in movies. You don't "see it" because all you see is negative. And if you're more positive then you'll have the same thing, more positive experiences. And you won't "see" negative as much.

There's a lot of bitterness here. Myself included. I guess part of the answer is be wise the the world but not jaded by it.