Why the Marriage System and Traditionalism is the biggest problem facing Men and Morality

[kavi]

I suppose in 2022 it should be known that all forms of Traditionalism ie Monogamy, Nuclear Family, Marriage etc are fundementally immoral and degenerative. In the Manosphere and Red Pill spheres forms of Liberalism and Socialism are seen as immoral while Traditionalism is held up as a type of Gold Standard of Morality. This the opposite of reality and I will give a quick explanation why.

Human Morality is related to outcomes and consequences. Humans are extremely social beings, more so than any other animal. The Natural Social Unit of Humans is a Community.

The Community, this is an abstract concept for now, for instance even a Nation can be considered a Community. All people live in this unit and everyone works together to get things done. Everyone has their place and does their job.

In a real Community or Social group those men with the highest social status will have most access to the women. Womens role is to select the right guys to be the leaders of the community. In this regard, women play a very important role because truly women are exceptionally capable of choosing the best men to be leaders. In my experience real Alpha qualites are better recognised by women than most men. This is because the leadership qualities of men transcend technical skills and abilities ie all of those things that men are traditionally better at than women are not so useful in being a leader so progamming, maths, lifting heavy rocks, etc. Rather it is 'higher level' qualities that make a guy a better leader or Alpha Male. This includes things like strength but mental and emotional strength is more important than physical strength.

What is happening with Attraction (not seduction, that is not a real thing) is that Attraction converges with the concept of Alpha Male or Community Leader. So, essentially, the same qualities and skills, almost exactly, that we refer to as Game, are the same as those relating to the Alpha Male. For instance, many men value physical strength more in other men, but women tend to value emotional and mental strength more, and for the Alpha Male of the group generally the latter is more important because physical power is easy to get.

My point is Attraction is something we in the Manosphere have been studying, as we experiment with Game and our interactions with women. Attraction or Game has been discovered, not prescribed, yet everything we discover we find it is the qualtiies that make a guy the best leader or Alpha Male of a group.

(I suppose a group can have more than one leader or alpha male, I dont see that being a problem, they will simply work together for the greater success, sharing the rewards between them.)


So, concepts of Attraction, Alpha Male, Morality etc are all somehow related to humans existing in groups and working within those groups.

 

[kavi]

The issue with Marriage and Traditionalism.

In the Community system, everyone is living together, women work just as men. To a large extent women choose who to have relationships with but the better males (who will have higher social status) will simply get more love from women. Remember it is exactly the same qualties that make a male attractive that make him a good leader or social person, hence, attraction will always favour those with higher status.

In this system, a woman doesnt get anything to engage in a relationship with a male. She wants the love, the intimacy, sex and a child. She can have that with whoever of her choosing but the male gives nothing else in return. No marriage, no commitment, no ring, no money nothing.

In Nature there is never an exchange for sex or love. That immorality only exists in Humans and 'Traditionalism', Nuclear Family or Marriage System.

Now, in todays world, women are still asking for something in exchange. This is the biggest problem. They want both the advantages of the Marriage system but the value and attraction of the Communal (Alpha Male) system ie hypergamy.

Because women are so desperate to not lose the Life game, which they see as Marriage, Husband, Babies, Monogamy etc they are playing super hard to not lose. This is causing them to have higher standards and expectations. In the Marriage System, women get something in exchange, a husband, a ring, a house, money and resources from the man. In the Communal system they get nothing from the man but they work themselves and the community provides a bit (to which all men contribute).

If today, we all moved away from all concepts of Traditionalism and the Marriage system, into something more like the Communal system then everything would improve very quickly and we would make progress. All we are seeing at the moment, is that women are super modern, liberal, independant etc but still hold on to the marriage system as some type of Gold Standard which it definitely isnt.

For men at the lower level, the Traditional System gives them a wife and children ie Nuclear Family as long as they work and provide for the state/king/wife. In the Communal system no one gets a nuclear family, higher level men get more relationships and love from women, lower level men get less or none, but they still live a more humane and social existence than in the current world. Children are raised by women with help from the Community.

But in todays world and as we move forward, more and more lower value men and even higher to upper level men are going to be losing out and not getting the consistent love and respect from women in this system. Hence, the communal system may seem more attractive to them.

The Communal system is the only one where a woman behaves in a more rational, positive and respectful way. This is because in the Communal System all the women are competing for the affections and attentions of the higher value guys, for social status etc and no guy is giving any woman 100% of anything so the women can have more freedom and get more but the whole concept of female value is different. Because there is no monogamy or marriage, which is how most women today are determining their value, the whole concept of women dominating over men becomes obselete. In todays world women are dominating men en-masse due to this system, she can marry a guy and completely dominate him. That cannot happen in the Communal system because women will be competing for the higher value males who will have enough power and options to keep all women in check.

 

[Epicwinguy]

Finally someone telling it like it is! But anyone who makes marriage and family life the point of their existence must be extremely naive.

 

[forcerecon01]

awesomely said

 

[kavi]

Thanks guys. I have pretty much checked out interacting with women in romantic scenarios, atleast for now, while I think about setting up or promoting this type of system.

The 'Community' I am talking about can take the form of a large social circle or social/political movement. This has many benefits for men and women and can have strong pulling power.

 

[BadBoy89]

Now, in todays world, women are still asking for something in exchange. This is the biggest problem. They want both the advantages of the Marriage system but the value and attraction of the Communal (Alpha Male) system ie hypergamy.

Good post.

I would add they want the Communal system from ages 18-29 and the Marriage system from 30+. They want the Alpha Dog when they are young and fertile and hot and have leverage. And the Beta Sucker when their leverage goes down and they need commitment and resources.

In Nature there is never an exchange for sex or love. That immorality only exists in Humans and 'Traditionalism', Nuclear Family or Marriage System.

I would say Marriage System was created for Beta Suckers. In order for society to procreate at an ”even” level and give the non genetically blessed or natural men a chance with women, society had to “create commitment” with ONE woman.

Suppose commitment and marriage ONE women was really frowned upon in society. Would the Beta Sucker stand a chance?

 

[Jake_Gyllenhaal69]

Are you low key arguing in favor of polygamy? No offense man, but nobody on this site would benefit from such a system. The guys benefitting from this system will more than likely be manipulating key old guys with a lot money and power within his community. Next in line will still be the bad guys that date cross paths with the “father” of the community and risk getting banished from the community. Your average Joe would be at a bigger disadvantage in this system.

 

[BadWatermelon]

Marriage is a compromise that prevents top ~5% men from taking all of the women, which is the natural order of the animal kingdom. Without it, lesser males have no incentive to produce anything more than what they need to survive.

 

[kavi]

I think the Kibbutz system in Israel was organised like this. I dont know about Alpha Males and Hypergamy but they definitely had a community system and no nuclear families from what I have been told by some Jews.

 

[BeExcellent]

Advice from the old lady:

Firstly let me state this: I do not need resources or provisioning and I do not “need” a man. Having said that I quite like having a good man & I do much for him.

Here’s the thing about human biology. Children take years to raise. It’s not like a cow where 5 minutes after birth the calf is walking and a year after birth the calf is approaching sexual maturity. Men who value their own gene pool have long selected a woman, claimed her as his own and put her to work raising his babies. Like for Millennia. This is not a new concept.

That tenent of biology is why humans developed into social creatures (because child rearing is so labor intensive and young children so helpless that division of labor is required: man provides, woman nurtures) and that is why the family became the most basic building block of society. All societies in history.

Liberalism parades as a utopian ideal as it has for many decades making promises that deny basic human biological and societal origins, and ultimately for these reasons utopian ideas never succeed in practice.

Humans are not carbon copies. Some are beautiful and some ugly; some are smart, some stupid, etc. Humanity is a race of individuals who are not equally provisioned in any way.

The family is also the basic community. The man leads, provides and defends; the woman nurtures and influences. The children learn social and societal skills within the basic communal structure called family.

The OP and others like him do not realize that destruction of the family is the destruction of society itself. Without the most basic societal structures, the families, people are lost, feeling their biology and social yearnings but basic building block structure is stripped away.

So these lost people are easily manipulated by few powerful people (who I assure you have families) to do or believe whatever.

And any time the male/female balance is out of whack with too few young women for the testosterone filled young men? You get large armies and you get wars.

Look through history and you’ll find these things to be true going back centuries, even millennia.

The family IS community. Do not buy the big LIE otherwise.

 

[kavi]

Wow, its kinda interesting to discuss this with a woman.

Firslty, you gotta understand why I am saying these things. From the age of 25 I was big into Traditional Red Pill Anti Feminism type stuff. Around 35 I learned more and now I believe what I believe for good reasons.

Most women I know, I talk to them, they like me, they know they are not the only girl I am talking to. They still want me. Then they say thay want a Nuclear Family setup just like BeExcellent. But they dont get it, if they wanted it they would not be able to have a guy like me in their life. Everything I brought to women, me being a better person to them, bringing more value, it comes from me having these views.

When quality men see the value of women, work, money, social value, political value, independance, non-exclusivity, then the man can see more value in women and hence treat them better.

A man living in the Social Communal system will always be superior to one living in Marriage system. In the Marriage system women are a burden on men, if a man has one partner he cannot be good and bring value to other women. All forms of social interaction can lead to love, romance and attraction. If a woman 'belongs' to one guy as a wife then other men cannot treat her well or help her develop or really interact with her because there are men out there who will make these women see them as better than their husbands. So really in the Marriage system a woman just has to be with her husband and barely even interact with other men aka gender segregration.

Another thing is that is easier for women who have already been succesfull in relationships like BeExcellent and other women who have higher socio-ecomic status. Younger women and poorer women have it much tougher. Only so many guys of value to go around and many are being left out in the dark.

We are not going backwards into traditionalism no matter much ppl talk about it.

https://metro.co.uk/2018/11/03/social-infertility-is-very-real-and-very-****-8090803/

Some 20-30% of women in modern societies are not getting married and having children. This mostly affects middle class type ppl imo so it is abig loss for societies. This is all pointing to moving away from the marriage system.

Now look, the ultimate reason for non-monogamy and non-traditionalism. A man cannot buy sex or love. Sex as an exchange ONLY exists in humans aka Prostitution and the Marriage system. This is why humans in 'Civilised' socities are so unequal and so ugly and stupid with many health and psychological issues. In complex animals like humans higher quality males need to be having more children than lower quality one. Otherwise the gene pool does not improve and it can even deterioriate. It is what it is.

The Marriage and Monogamy system allows all men to reproduce hence this system WILL be responsible for the downfall and genetic devolution of humans until it either collapses or a ppl move to a better system. Humans did not evolve to humans from Chimps or whatever from the Marriage based system but from the Communal system. There is no way the Marriage based system can continue because it will destroy human genetic capital with too many low quality males reproducing.

The Marriage system has only been around for like less than 10,000 years, probably around 7,000 to be more precise. We can actually see ancient socities where it didnt exist and even modern tribal socities where it doesnt exist. It is not inherently civilised or human thing. It is a VERY new thing.

There is a competitino for females out there. If women want to be valued they need to be outside the marriage system. Do you buy a car from a company who only sold 1 car to you? No. Otherwise you would get a crap car.

Today this whole marriage system is being rejected. Ppl just dont know. See how women talk about all forms of female empowerment and indepedendance, lgbtq, equality etc etc but so few women out there are confident enough to talk against the marriage system. its like we have moved away from all forms for traditionalism but men are still expected to conform to the marriage system. This is because women continue to see it as an ego and validation thing that they can 'lock-down' a guy and keep him all to themselves. Its just an ego thing.

But practically women are not geting enough from this system hence there is a social and cultural breakdown in society today. Relationships are a ****show everyhere. Its all going in one direction.

This is an enjoyable discussion for me, not a hard debate or anything like that. I am saying Is it not the case that everything we are seeing today is due to the rejection of traditionalism and the breakdown of the marriage system? Does anyone think it will go back into traditionlism.

Once women have access to money and resources and communal help to raise children men simply do not need to provide those things as husbands but provide it as members of a community.

Patriarchy and the Marriage system has resided over the biggest downfall in the human genepool. It can literally destroy humanity over 20,000years. When you have a system where every man no matter how stupid, unhealthy, psychologically damaged etc can have women, property and children as long as he works and follows the system it is just a matter of time before that whole groups genetically degenerates.

Not all men need to have children and marriage. I personally would rather live without a woman or my own children in a communal system than be married in this system. I can spend time with my siblings children, other children of the community. Men are so low and pathetic in the marriage system they just think "this is my woman these are my kids"

An average loser beta doesnt need a woman and his own kids, he just needs to be content and listen to the community and the alpha males who look after everyone. There is never equality between Alpha and Beta.

No one is afraid of beta males losers making wars and stuff it is all stupid. You are talking about an Alpha Male system based on Nature and evolution vs a degenerative system that elevates betas to the level of alpha. The Marriage system is so low it only worked for a little whiile before it destroyed the human social and genetic capital.

 

[kavi]

Way too much think. Reading this reminded me of why womens vaginas dry up. They hate intellect to a greater degree. By smart guy they mean is he smart enough to fck me right and beat my childish games.

Ok lols, when someone with your views has 5 or so women living with him or in his system due to his attraction and sex appeal let me know.