why is it so hard now?

[squirrels]

Women have always been fvcking nuts. It worked back in the old days because, "Get in the kitchen and make me a sammich" was an acceptable response. The man of the house was in charge.

Now that women are empowered, the psychosis that plagues them is taken much more seriously.

I don't blame the women, really...it's the way society raises them. On one hand they have the whole pariah of being "slutty" and the image of being a good monogamous girlfriend/wife/mother, and on the other hand, they have Sex and the City and Girls Gone Wild. Trying to resolve two disparate images of what they should be? No wonder they're so bonkers.

 

[spread_love]

the way society, tv and movies and even music protrays america and what it stands for, makes america stand for less and less.
soap operas need to go, they dont add to anyones lives and they do certainly start drama for many people who are bored enough to watch them.
beer comericals protray that if you drink enough of their product, you will be loved and have big fun with pretty models.
buy this house with no money down infomercials make you think you can buy a home way out of your price range. wheres the starter house these days?
the "eat all you want and loose 129 lbs in 6 weeks " commercials need to go too, because its just not likely that a product can really do that. we need to stop filling our bellies with junk and fast food.
americans dont have to be a size one, but we also dont have to be a size 22 either.

if society continued to preach the "father knows best, leave it to ****** and happy days" way of living, instead of the shows we watch today, then people wouldnt behave the way they do now. it society didnt accept that its ok to leave your spouse for someone hotter, or get a credit card and pay it later, the divorce rates would be way down.

I agree with a lot of this, but I want to say what I think about soap operas...you have to be pretty simple minded to take that type of drama seriously it is so over the top and stupid and I think they were made just to give bored Housewives something they feel involved in.

Everything you said here makes perfect sense...

 

[Francisco d'Anconia]

...The result of these two things? An education system that quite simply stinks and an obsession with individualism. That's why the average American is so succeptible to advertising... not only do they not have the training to combat its deception but they are so focused on themselves that advertising can appeal so well to his or her narcissism...

I was right with you until this point. As Americans, we are typically anything but individual. You stated the reasons though, we are very susceptible to advertising; to be like famous people by being able to buy what they have and to be able to look like and emulate them. There's nothing individualistic about that. I'd even question the narcissism, but I would agree with a self indulgence and the need for immediate gratification.

 

[lee36044]

Wow

I think I've heard everything now! This thread has wandered quite a bit! Media influence? Poor time? Equal rights?
Simple answer to the OP: No fault divorce combined with the trend in the US to turn the lions into lambs by legislation! is why it seems harder now!

Things haven't really changed ... there is just less emphasis on conforming to societal notions of propriety these days! Prior to the late sixties, making choices that went against societal norms did cause major problems for those engaging in those activities!

I have seen court records ruling the shooting of a boyfriend caught by a husband as justifiable! I know one elderly "gentleman" who beat his wife and her lover to death with an iron pipe when he caugt them in bed! He was convicted of manslaughter and served, I believe, six years in prison! Flirting with a mans fiancee was enough to let him beat you half to death without any penalty!

So there were much harsher penalties for engaging in the behaviors so common today. But that did not stop the activities we rant so much about today from happening ... people were just more cautious about getting caught! Add a standard requiring women to be married or be considered *****s, a common law basis for the man having supremacy in all areas of family life, and a stigma against unwed mothers that ruined a girls life irrevocably, and voila ... the good old days where once you caught her ... she gave you total control of her life!

The last bastion of defense of the "good old days" or if you prefer, the "Walt Disney type family", fell when the individual states startied introducing "no fault" divorce standards.

The only real difference between dating now and dating then is that once you catch them .... nowadays you have to keep working to hold them!

 

[Tazman]

Quote:
The thing that makes me angry is how many liberals and women argue that women are paid less than men. Well, no ****, they work less and have less experiance for the most part.


Actually...they work HARDER and LONGER hours in order to be recognized at the same level as a man. They are not into the "boys club" thing either. And I know many that have as much or even more experience than men. Times are changing.

Now, I'm not talking about blue collar workers. I'm talking here about educated women.

Women......working harder and longer hours then men to be recognized at the same level? White collar work you say, and what field is this may I ask? I'm not going to make a broad generalization as if I've worked around so many women in the office at different levels, because i haven't. But one thing I haven't seen is a woman, in any field, working harder and putting in more hours than men.

Why do you think they choose white collar work to begin with? Women are all about "status" and taking the easy road, not that I find anything wrong with that, hell if they can pull it off, more power to them. Although I find it quite frustrating to actually work for them, atleast the ones I've been around.

 

[Latinoman]

Women......working harder and longer hours then men to be recognized at the same level? White collar work you say, and what field is this may I ask? I'm not going to make a broad generalization as if I've worked around so many women in the office at different levels, because i haven't. But one thing I haven't seen is a woman, in any field, working harder and putting in more hours than men.

I have seen it PLENTY of time. Let me share with you some fields that I have witnessed.

1- Military (enlisted = blue collar)
2- Engineering field (chemical, mechanical, electrical engineering to mention a few)
3- Energy field
4- Management field

Those 4 fields for sure.

Not saying that ALL women are like that. I know several whiny/cry/biatchy type too (same with some men in that category). And there are a few that try to use their physical beauty to get away. Sure.

My point is, the ones that are very good and work hard...have to do it much harder than men in the same category.

Why?

1- Most men are in the "boys club" mentallity.
2- Most women tend to lack sympathy for OTHER women (when it comes to work).


I'm basing this from a perspective as a peer, subordinate, and superior, as I have served in all three roles while working with women. Some are very very bad. I agree with that. But I can say the same with men (as I had to get one fired a few years ago).

Why do you think they choose white collar work to begin with? Women are all about "status" and taking the easy road, not that I find anything wrong with that, hell if they can pull it off, more power to them. Although I find it quite frustrating to actually work for them, atleast the ones I've been around.

Maybe for the same reason I choose white collar work to begin with too.
1- Status
2- Money
3- Better way of living
4- Good at it.

And make no mistake about one thing..."white collar" work is not the easy road. And I tell you this as a man that ALSO did "blue collar" work and can literally fix most things with his hands and was an Enlisted military man several years ago.

A woman/man spending 4-8 years in a University taking on a degree such as engineering, science, math. Then trying to HOPE to find a job where to apply that (and pay for school debts). Then reaching level of responsibilities where the lives and wellfare of others are at stake...that takes hard work.

Now, I agree that there are some "white collar" jobs that are easier than "blue collar" jobs. But there is also the opposite.

My point? We cannot generalize when it comes to professions/work environment/etc.

Yes...LOT of lazy women out there. Yes...LOT of lazy men out there. Yes...some hard working men out there. Yes...some hard working women out there. It is just that women have to work harder to gain the same status/$$$/respect as men. Especially if men-dominated-fields.

That's my point.

 

[Nighthawk]

Women's liberation has been excellent for the DJ type. Women are free to f*ck around and the prized man cleans up at the expense of the man who used to be able to count on his providerness, fists or marriage vows to keep a bored and unhappy woman.

Men in the past had far less choice when women married young and for life. The downside is that in a free market you have to have a superior product than your rivals. But considering what an AFC world it is, that's not too hard.

 

[Tazman]

My point is, the ones that are very good and work hard...have to do it much harder than men in the same category.

I can agree with that because I know there are women out there who are this way.

I have seen it PLENTY of time. Let me share with you some fields that I have witnessed.

1- Military (enlisted = blue collar)
2- Engineering field (chemical, mechanical, electrical engineering to mention a few)
3- Energy field
4- Management field

I can believe this as well, but let me ask you, what did these women look like? The only women I've seen or met who excel in the fields you mentioned (besides management) are women who don't appear very feminine.

I met a female electrical contractor/project manager. At some point we talked about past jobs and how bad the conditions could be when doing electrical work. She used to work out in the field herself, but do you really think an attractive woman would get into this type of work? Hell no, she was a smoker, a drinker, and just looked worn out. Now I didn't care about any of this because it's not like I had an interest in dating her, but she is almost the norm when it comes to females who work blue collar jobs.

And make no mistake about one thing..."white collar" work is not the easy road. And I tell you this as a man that ALSO did "blue collar" work and can literally fix most things with his hands and was an Enlisted military man several years ago.

A woman/man spending 4-8 years in a University taking on a degree such as engineering, science, math. Then trying to HOPE to find a job where to apply that (and pay for school debts). Then reaching level of responsibilities where the lives and wellfare of others are at stake...that takes hard work.

You're right, it isn't ALL easy, but it tends to be "easier" than blue collar work, and the pay off is many times greater in the long run. Don't get me wrong, I wish I had a nice office-based job where I could spend more time performing tasks that are less physically demanding, although I am getting there since my last promotion. I guess I should've been more clear about the "type" of women I was referring to.

Actually you know what, I HAVE seen some fairly attractive women on some of the construction sites I've worked at, but they're all spanish women that may even be here illegally (not that I care). I didn't think I'd ever see women that I'd find attractive on a major construction site, working. I guess I could say THEY are the exception, so far.

 

[Nighthawk]

Illegal Spanish construction worker hotties, mmm.

 

[Latinoman]

First, thanks for keeping the debate polite. I like that and respect that.

I can agree with that because I know there are women out there who are this way.

I can believe this as well, but let me ask you, what did these women look like? The only women I've seen or met who excel in the fields you mentioned (besides management) are women who don't appear very feminine.

Some looked average. Other ugly. But some also EXTREMELY attractive (including my ex-wife).

The thing is, once you work with women like this and realize how great and committed they are with their work...any sense of "attraction" is gone, because you start seeing them as one of the team (e.g. kind of sexless). I didn't work with my ex (thankfully).

However, one thing I have noticed about them all...even the very attractive ones. They either manage to be married very early (prior to getting the education) or they marry VERY VERY late (mid 30s) when they put their career above everything.

I met a female electrical contractor/project manager. At some point we talked about past jobs and how bad the conditions could be when doing electrical work. She used to work out in the field herself, but do you really think an attractive woman would get into this type of work? Hell no, she was a smoker, a drinker, and just looked worn out. Now I didn't care about any of this because it's not like I had an interest in dating her, but she is almost the norm when it comes to females who work blue collar jobs.

Very rarely you find a woman with LOT of skills in this type of job. Do you know why? Because very few are given the chance to do it.

But I agree with your point.

My experience is more in the fields I provided in my original post.

You're right, it isn't ALL easy, but it tends to be "easier" than blue collar work, and the pay off is many times greater in the long run. Don't get me wrong, I wish I had a nice office-based job where I could spend more time performing tasks that are less physically demanding, although I am getting there since my last promotion. I guess I should've been more clear about the "type" of women I was referring to.

That's fine and you are correct! I personally prefer to be in the field from time to time...although, I don't mind wearing nice suits and Italian shoes to the Office. The way people treat me is considerably different when I dress for the Office than when I dress in jeans/shirt/etc.

Actually you know what, I HAVE seen some fairly attractive women on some of the construction sites I've worked at, but they're all spanish women that may even be here illegally (not that I care). I didn't think I'd ever see women that I'd find attractive on a major construction site, working. I guess I could say THEY are the exception, so far.

Construction is an extremely tough job. It is very rare to find very good women in that field (unless they are doing electrical or some other type of specialized job).

I live in the East Coast. I have seen some VERY ATTRACTIVE female cops here. But very few Hispanic (good looking or ugly) working the construction sites.

 

[d9930380]

There was a survey done that most women are looking for the perfect guy. They've been used to getting what they want now and they want a guy to match. While most guys will settle for a girl that's acceptable.

That's the reason why it's harder. Women are making it so because they're the ones that are in control as they're the ones that get all the offers and because of this they can reject multiple guys and not worry about it. While guys know this and fear being single when in a relationship. They also if they need to, can approach guys they really like too, and not fear rejection as much because most guys if offered will take the easy way out. Have you ever rejected a girl? - They're not used to it and take it REALLY badly because of this. I've actually girls ask "Why won't you **** me?", unbelievable, i couldn't imagine a guy asking that.

It's much easier for a women to move on that a guy because to do so she doesn't have to put up with the rejection and work involved.

As with everything else it seems. Feminism has given girls the best of both worlds.

However and as all good DJs know - this is true if you're lazy or insecure and therefore don't approach as most men now go to bars/clubs and drink by themselves and maybe once they're pissed they might make a move, that's a recipe for failure. But if you take control and go out there and make a point of finding the one you choose and not wait for her to find you then you can have alot of fun doing it and you don't need to worry about being labelled a slut - like they do.

I think it was easier in the past because men where men and took control of their own lives, not that women where women.

For all those guys that go on about how good their parents had it. Ask them who approached who. That's the difference.

 

[James Dupri]

Believing is Seeing.

Remember this...

Whatever you believe, materializes.

Over the weekend, my gf and I were having a spat. In the past, we were very up and down. I would be quick to show her where the door was, and she would be quick to drop everything, or be a bit upset and then we'd work things out. But her never-ending question was..."How do we stop this?" (Referring to some certain disagreements...) The obvious questions is, YOU JUST DO WHAT IT IS YOU WANT. You just stop doing it. There isn't a SPECIFIC, logical strategy that gets you from POINT A to POINT B. It just stops if you WANT it to. Thing is, most people don't want "that" thing to stop, they want it to "change." Or the person to change...

That's what guys today want in society...the change. To blame problems elsewhere. The real ANALOGY to use is like...all the men are Out To Lunch, and the Women are at home partying it up, acting how they want to act, getting away with whatever they want, BECAUSE MEN ATTRACT AND ALLOW THE EXACT REALITY THEY LIVE IN.

Whenever I was in a bunch of arguements with women it was for the following reasons...

1) Normally it was stupid. Almost ALL disagreements are dumb. Rarely do you do anything INTENTIONAL to hurt someone close to you. You wouldn't do it to a friend. You wouldn't do it to family. So why would you do it to a girl? Right, you wouldn't. I explain this point first to her. It wasn't that I tried to hurt or disagree or confuse her, rather, SHE MISINTERPRETED the situation, OR, HER EXPECTATIONS were off base and not properly communicated to me.

2) If this UPSET is not confronted like the demon it is, it will fester in your past and it will scar your future. An injury or hurt or pain like that, which either you or your friend/partner DO NOT confront and foregive, will change your perception of that person, thereby changing the future perceptions and the outcome will then flow INLINE with exactly what you think. If your perception is now one of hurt, instead of love (pure, true love - i.e. the source of what we are), then you will bring about the circumstances you hold in your mind and heart. No 2 ways about it. You will ATTRACT that.

3) Each new day is a new moment. Each moment is unique. If you aren't CREATING new, exhilirating moments, then you are creating boring, unmemorable moments that will pave a life/relationship of mediocrity, or worse pain and upset. This is uniform for all people, regardless of sex. So don't let women cop out because they "are different." The fundamentals of humans are not that different.

---------------------

Why are things like what you perceive them to be? BECAUSE THAT is how you PERCEIVE THEM TO be?

Do you honestly believe a man who surrounds himself with many women will care of what circumstances you guys think about, bring about, create, or attract?

No!

Anytime a woman says to me..."If you do X, or Y, or Z to any other girl she'd dump you..." I consciously explain..."I do not care, I wouldn't date a girl of that type, or I'd be glad she was gone anyways, I wouldn't want a girl of that type."

Men, YOUR LAW, YOUR VALUES, YOUR VIRTUES, are UNIFORM, UNIVERSAL, SOLID, GOLD, LAW. Word is bond.

Men, you are ALLOWING and attracting EXACTLY what you believe/think, therefore IT reinforces itself. It compounds. You get more of it. No 2 ways about it.

It isn't that this is how it has to be should be, evolved this, or anything else. It's how you think it is. If ENOUGH guys thought ONE way, then things would appear one way. And if enough guys thought another way, it would appear another, different way, depending on what you think.

---------------------------

It's about what's right. What you want. And generating and living by what you believe and dying by what you believe. And you only die physically.

If anything, MEN are too easy to turn over. Too indulgent. Too easily seduced. Too easily coaxed. All skills native to women, that you can't compete on.

Case-in-point, my recently divorced MILF aunt was approached by a sleeze bag guy from her recent past wanting to date her. Their friendship never truly blossomed because as she was getting divorced, he was busy knocking up some sloot with kids with 3 different men, him being the 3rd. Obviously I being the protective, eldest nephew stepped in. The flags should have been obvious TO her, but weren't as a recent divorcee with 4 kids. They were...

-He banged a woman, stupidly, who had kids with other, different men.
-They weren't getting along.
-This guy is hyper-possessive and always worries that my aunt has my X-uncle over.
-He pushes to hard for the relationship.

She wants to be NICE about letting him down, but their relationship is almost strictly confined to the phone, and the occasional run-in in town. I told her...

"You can't offer objections on HIS playing field. Tell him you're done. You don't want a relationship. Please don't call. Lose my number. I'm not interested in you in that way. Pure, straight, strict rejection is the only way."

Same way with women, guys...their questions, their actions, their looks, their feelings are not-so cleverly disguised ways to feel you out, to motivate and manipulate you. However, guys today THINK they have to do what OTHER people want like some emotional slave. And that if they don't, they're a bad guy. SO WHAT! Be the bad guy! Bad is only a PERCEPTION. It's perception from the vantage point of the party you wronged. It's not even a chink in your armour.

STOP ATTRACTING A REALITY YOU DO NOT WANT. For every relationship you think does exist poorly, a great one opposite that exists, too. SO GO BELIEVE, CREATE, ATTRACT, ALLOW, AND FIND IT!

------------------------

You often wonder why is the news this way...The news is this way because if it can get enough people to BELIEVE "this is the way the world is," enough people will bring it into existence to make it so. And believing and attraction preceed ACTION. That's how the LAW works. If you believe the law of attraction works, you'll attract what you want AS YOU ACT TOWARD it. If you confidently believe you'll learn to sell well, take the steps, study, read, etc, and take action, then you will become great, JUST BECAUSE YOU BELIEVE IT TO BE SO IT WILL BE SO. So if the news is horrible, and PEOPLE accept that WE MUST have war, we must have dependence on oil, that we must have shytty politicians, etc, etc, they won't do much to ACT in a way proper to BRING about a better reality. Make sense? BUT, if we believe we can have a better reality, deserve a better one, and we take the steps to do so, NOTHING can stop us. Same with this woman situation...

It isn't entirely as one would think. It's merely the byproduct of PAST, NEGATIVE thoughts and actions, hopefully running it's course. Observing current reality with any level of force will bring more toward you.



A-Unit

great post

 

[Heretolearn]

Women appreciated class, integrity, diginity, etc. Today many appreciate the opposite of those qualities as TV/advertising told them it was cool to date and marry "dangerous." (After a few months that wears off.)

My parents are older and have been married for more than 50 years. I asked my mom about meeting my dad and the reason she married him was because he was so nice, polite, and classy. That was about it.

Also, while my dad crossed the country twice for grad schools, my mom went with him. They were very poor at the time as my dad studied and my mom took low-paying jobs on campuses. They were happy as heck.

Today, the beyotch wants the dude with a full wallet out of the gate. There's no "poor time" for couples these days. Most older couples today had that poor period where they paid their dues and built the foundation of a strong marriage and family.

If you told some U.S. woman today about older people living on nearly nothing, being happy, and being in love because of the qualities of class, respect, dignity, and integrity, she'd get on her cell phone, drop some f-bombs to her friends on how stupid you are, get in her gas guzzling SUV, and drive away.

It was easier back then because men and women had more defined roles. It was actually admirable to be a housewife and raise kids.

I blame the majority of marital/dating/relationship problems on women ... and yes, I know I'm biased there.

great post. Not just women in america, but life. eg:

The pace of life has quickened so much:

1) we have instant access to people anywhere in the world (telecommunications);
2) we are exposed to more media/different contexts than ever before. eg we see so much hollywood/movies/reality from different contexts which affects us differently then in the past where I imagine you would predominantly be exposed to stories/dreams related to the environment you lived in. Eg. Through chatting with people in the same locality.
3) Stages. Everyone wants instant. Eg. in Australia, it used to be common for a couple to buy land and a garage. They would live in the garage as they slowly built their home. Now everyone wants the mansion in prime location immediately (it is now illegal to build/live in your garage). THe focus seems to have shifted from GROW together to BE together.

Probation periods for new jobs are longer than some marriages. SO many options means so many more choices are made more quickly than in the past.

SO I would hypothesize. Interesting question

 

[Heretolearn]

I have seen it PLENTY of time. Let me share with you some fields that I have witnessed.

1- Military (enlisted = blue collar)
2- Engineering field (chemical, mechanical, electrical engineering to mention a few)
3- Energy field
4- Management field

Those 4 fields for sure.

Not saying that ALL women are like that. I know several whiny/cry/biatchy type too (same with some men in that category). And there are a few that try to use their physical beauty to get away. Sure.

My point is, the ones that are very good and work hard...have to do it much harder than men in the same category.

Why?

1- Most men are in the "boys club" mentallity.
2- Most women tend to lack sympathy for OTHER women (when it comes to work).


I'm basing this from a perspective as a peer, subordinate, and superior, as I have served in all three roles while working with women. Some are very very bad. I agree with that. But I can say the same with men (as I had to get one fired a few years ago).





Maybe for the same reason I choose white collar work to begin with too.
1- Status
2- Money
3- Better way of living
4- Good at it.

And make no mistake about one thing..."white collar" work is not the easy road. And I tell you this as a man that ALSO did "blue collar" work and can literally fix most things with his hands and was an Enlisted military man several years ago.

A woman/man spending 4-8 years in a University taking on a degree such as engineering, science, math. Then trying to HOPE to find a job where to apply that (and pay for school debts). Then reaching level of responsibilities where the lives and wellfare of others are at stake...that takes hard work.

Now, I agree that there are some "white collar" jobs that are easier than "blue collar" jobs. But there is also the opposite.

My point? We cannot generalize when it comes to professions/work environment/etc.

Yes...LOT of lazy women out there. Yes...LOT of lazy men out there. Yes...some hard working men out there. Yes...some hard working women out there. It is just that women have to work harder to gain the same status/$$$/respect as men. Especially if men-dominated-fields.

That's my point.

Firstly, I have read many of your other posts which have been great and appreciated.

With respect, you must seriously be joking as your viewpoint seems like a massive agenda.

Your generalisation that women work longer and harder than men....

Where from? Your own experiences. Good for you. I doubt ANYONE has experienced enough to make that assertion. Nor can I obviously disprove it. Hence it infuriates me to see someone so confidently spout something as fact repeatedly.

Oh and this boys club you speak of. Part of my experiences and those communicated to me is that business is about reputation, respect and confidence. Communication is key but actions/results speak. If you have peer respect/boys club then it has usually come from somewhere. The origins can be deserved (hard work) or not (other's achievements eg family). Nevertheless, I have found it a crucial part of business success.

Thus, if the women you praise are unable to access this strength, then I cannot believe they are as good at their jobs as you would have us believe.

 

[Scaramouche]

Dear Threefingers,
Sorry to disillusion you,but it is far easier now to find a Lady than in your Fathers day,although I can only speak about Australia....it's nearly fifty years since I started dating,then It was very difficult to find a Girl,if you went to a Dance there were two Men to every Woman,and weren't they picky?Forget about being Chinese or Negro,even Italians had a hard time,I remember once in the Days when Girls sat one side of the Hall and blokes the other side,watching a handsome if short Italian go down a line of Woman and asking maybe ten to dance,only to walk away emty handed,pretty brave of him especially since one of the "Ladies" ate out on the story that she had said,no thanks I don't dance with wogs....The Demographic was much the same as now,but Girls stayed home,perhaps being allowed out to Church Dances,these were the Days before Oral Contraceptives......Then in the Sixties all Hell broke loose,A great time to be alive,girls became easy any health problems could be fixed with a jab of Penicillin,it was wonderful and went on like this for many years untill AIDS reared its ugly head and for a while we were back to the days of celibacy.....Today seems a Happy medium,sure the Quality of Women has dropped incrementally with Family Law Courts and Womens Liberation.But as one door closes another opens and we have an influx of Asian Girls,the greatest thing since pockets in shirts....So don't blame your lack of success on the current social system,there are more than enough lonely Women out there for you.

 

[Nutz]

When I hear really old couples talk about how they started dating and when I read books from way back when it becomes quite clear that things used to be different. The old guys here likely have lived long enough to notice the change. The fact is way back dating was easier. There weren't all these mind games and you didn't need special techniques to get a girl. These days it's different. So why do you think it is that getting a girl back then was so easy and simple and getting a girl today is so hard and complicated?

Short answer: men were men and women were women.

Long answer: woman are naturally attracted to masculine men. These days males are groomed from an early age to be subservient to females. We gave them equality, but took away none of their special privileges and now we're paying the price for it. Couple that with women running amok acting masculine and males acting more feminine and it's a recipe for disaster, which is exactly what's happened to relationships in western culture. See also: http://www.sosuave.net/forum/showthread.php?t=166271