Why has the seduction community become so negative?

[Pallanick]

Hi!

First of all. I'm new as a member of this forum. But I have been reading it for a while.

Anyways. When I first discovered Seduction, it was a long time ago. I found that the community of people all where positive and saying stuff like "Looks don't matter. You can get ANY girl you want, as long as you learn game".
But for some reason I stopped reading these books, and watching these seminares. That made me stop hanging on forums as well. But then, when I came back to the community. Everything had changed.
Now in most of these threads there is a air of negativity hovering over every post. It's like we have gone from using routines (M3) etc, to just saying "Be a better version of yourself. But you will always be limited".
Is that how seduction has evolved? We have come to the conclusion that these articles, tips and ways to attract women is just a screen of lies? That true seduction come from just being yourself and looking good?

It was so much easier before. You simply read about none-natural ways to pick up and how you should act. Also, how you can adapt these none-natural routines to fit YOU. Was that all bull****?

What I'm trying to say is. I'm confused. How would YOU learn pick up today? Would you simply resort to going to the gym, pumping some weights and approch girls with a smile. Or would do all that AND have some sort of strategy in mind?
What happend to manipulation and making girls think they are attracted to you. I thought attaction was not a choice.

Thank you.

 

[Shivastorm_88]

Hi!

First of all. I'm new as a member of this forum. But I have been reading it for a while.

Anyways. When I first discovered Seduction, it was a long time ago. I found that the community of people all where positive and saying stuff like "Looks don't matter. You can get ANY girl you want, as long as you learn game".
But for some reason I stopped reading these books, and watching these seminares. That made me stop hanging on forums as well. But then, when I came back to the community. Everything had changed.
Now in most of these threads there is a air of negativity hovering over every post. It's like we have gone from using routines (M3) etc, to just saying "Be a better version of yourself. But you will always be limited".
Is that how seduction has evolved? We have come to the conclusion that these articles, tips and ways to attract women is just a screen of lies? That true seduction come from just being yourself and looking good?

It was so much easier before. You simply read about none-natural ways to pick up and how you should act. Also, how you can adapt these none-natural routines to fit YOU. Was that all bull****?

What I'm trying to say is. I'm confused. How would YOU learn pick up today? Would you simply resort to going to the gym, pumping some weights and approch girls with a smile. Or would do all that AND have some sort of strategy in mind?
What happend to manipulation and making girls think they are attracted to you. I thought attaction was not a choice.

Thank you.

I jusat wrote a thread regarding this 2-3 days ago, I don't know if this is partially directed to it, but you might want to give it a read, it exposes my ideas on the whole seduction techniques

http://www.sosuave.net/forum/showthread.php?t=180139

Cliffs of my post:

I don't like seduction techniques because I feel they are good for only two things: speed seducing (which I am not interested in) and to act as training wheels when you are new to the game. However, I find that people rely too much on them at some times. I would much prefer developing a natural game and work on myself and aim for constant self-improvement over mastering some techniques that not even represent who I am or who I want to be.

 

[Pallanick]

This isn't really a seduction site. The rules here are quite simple:

Get inner game and better yourself so that you are not so afraid to approach or lose chicks.

Take chicks off the pedestal and neg them, be irrationally self-confident.

Don't get too attached unless you are sure the chick is the right one, spin plates.

Don't deal with low quality BPD women.

Well, this is a site for learning how to get better with women. So no matter what you want to call it, it is some sort of seduction site.

And about the "Don't deal with low quality women". I've read a lot of people here saying "If you aren't a 10. Then why do you think you deserve a 10".

Either way, my post dosen't regard this site in particular. It's all "seduction" or whatever you want to call it, sites.

 

[Pallanick]

I jusat wrote a thread regarding this 2-3 days ago, I don't know if this is partially directed to it, but you might want to give it a read, it exposes my ideas on the whole seduction techniques

http://www.sosuave.net/forum/showthread.php?t=180139

Cliffs of my post:

I don't like seduction techniques because I feel they are good for only two things: speed seducing (which I am not interested in) and to act as training wheels when you are new to the game. However, I find that people rely too much on them at some times. I would much prefer developing a natural game and work on myself and aim for constant self-improvement over mastering some techniques that not even represent who I am or who I want to be.

I know. I have read your thread and I did like it. However, it dosen't really adress my questions specificly. Yet it does give a good overall view on some things. I mean, I do agree with the basic stuff that you have posted. But I'm more intressted in a deeper understanding of "seduction".

 

[f283000]

And about the "Don't deal with low quality women". I've read a lot of people here saying "If you aren't a 10. Then why do you think you deserve a 10".

I don't think you know what a low quality woman is. He is not talking about looks here.

Low quality women as in BPDs, single momas, women with daddy issues, drug users, violent women, sluts, B|tches, feminists, alcoholic, argumentative etc.

Looks do not count towards making a woman quality. She can be a 10 but be a BPD and make your life miserable.

 

[Pallanick]

I don't think you know what a low quality woman is. He is not talking about looks here.

Low quality women as in BPDs, single momas, women with daddy issues, drug users, violent women, sluts, feminists etc.

Well, that would render them less good looking automatically. So that seems unrelevant to the statement.

 

[f283000]

Well, that would render them less good looking automatically. So that seems unrelevant to the statement.

Not really. Just go to any college campus and you'll find that the hottest women there while hot have some underlying drama that don't make them fit to be a potential LTR. Daddy issues, BPD, these are very common among today's women.

A quality woman is a woman that is a good potential LTR. For a woman to be a good potential LTR she shouldn't come in with all kinds of baggage and drama or else that's all she will bring to your life.

Looks do matter but it's just part of the equation.

 

[Pallanick]

Not really. Just go to any college campus and you'll find that the hottest women there while hot have some underlying drama that don't make them fit to be a potential LTR. Daddy issues, BPD, these are very common among today's women.

A quality woman is a woman that is a good potential LTR. For a woman to be a good potential LTR she shouldn't come in with all kinds of baggage and drama or else that's all she will bring to your life.

Looks do matter but it's just part of the equation.

Well, as a man. You want a girl that is good looking and have less baggage, sure. So lets change the word "Good looks" to "Attractive". Lets put the entire equation on a scale.

So now we have stated that for a girl to be attractive, she has to meet standards. The ulimate goal being to get a girl like that.

But this discussion, still is not relevant to the topic directly. Maybe in some indirect way. But that is less intressting at this point.

 

[Pallanick]

The scale should be "quality".

Sure, whatever you want to call it

 

[f283000]

I think the biggest problem men have when it comes to getting themselves in trouble with women is that they don't know what a good quality woman is.

They know what makes a good car and can make the right buying decision at the dealership but when it comes to women they couldn't pick up a quality woman from a lineup if their life depended on it!

Men pick women like if they were buying a car based on how it looks on the outside and nothing else. If you bought a car just because of how it looks on the outside you might be in trouble later on.

So it's not surprising why we have countless threads in this forum from guys suffering due to low quality women.

One thing to mention is that most guys when first starting out with women don't really care about nothing else but looks. A guy will put up with all the hell and drama a woman will put him through just to get some pu$$y. As our game evolves and we evolve as men we may still get involved with low quality women but we know full well what we're getting into and usually keep them to ONS or FBs.

Knowing a good woman from a bad one is a skill that we develop as we gain more experience with women. It might not mean anything when you're in high school or in your 20's as you are still new in the game but it becomes more important later on.

 

[Pallanick]

I think the biggest problem men have when it comes to getting themselves in trouble with women is that they don't know what a good quality woman is.

They know what makes a good car and can make the right buying decision at the dealership but when it comes to women they couldn't pick up a quality woman from a lineup if their life depended on it!

Men pick women like if they were buying a car based on how it looks on the outside and nothing else. If you bought a car just because of how it looks on the outside you might be in trouble later on.

So it's not surprising why we have countless threads in this forum from guys suffering due to low quality women.

One thing to mention is that most guys when first starting out with women don't really care about nothing else but looks. A guy will put up with all the hell and drama a woman will put him through just to get some pu$$y. As our game evolves and we evolve as men we may still get involved with low quality women but we know full well what we're getting into and usually keep them to ONS or FBs.

Knowing a good woman from a bad one is a skill that we develop as we gain more experience with women. It might not mean anything when you're in high school or in your 20's as you are still new in the game but it becomes more important later on.

How does that relate to why the seduction community has become negative though? If some guy can't get a girl, but he's trying to learn from a site such as this, yet is confronted with tons of answers saying "Just be yourself, but better, and pick the right sorts of women" how does that help him?

Sure, it's something to go from. But it's not specific, it's random. It dosen't give him any path to walk on.

Also, I think it's healthy for a guy just starting out with picking up girls to land a "hot" girl. Eventho she might have baggage. As long as he knows about it and dumps her when he feels like it (Considering that he is not getting too comfortable with the situation and taking ****)

 

[Hakuna]

imo, Inner Game has become infinitely more important.

It's like that teaching a man how to fish metaphor. A man with a few seduction techniques gets laid a few times. A man with inner game gets laid too many times.

 

[blueline]

The reason things have become negative is because seduction gurus, aside from a few concepts, are selling the average guy basically useless advice. One of my close friends is extremely good looking (looks like Tom Cruise), obsessed with reading PU theory material, and probably goes out cold approaching a bunch of women like twice a week. He's banged like 60 women at age 26 with probably 1/3 of the women being in the 8-9 range (his 7 is probably most DJ's 8). His MLTR's are never below a 7.5. For this guy, the biggest hurdle he needs to get over usually is his personality, because he can already get his foot in the door with tons of the girls he meets due to his physical appearance. This means that PU advice is really relevant to him because it fixes exactly where he goes wrong sometimes. For the average guy, however, when the same advice he uses is followed, it doesn't generate sexual attraction, it just generates a bunch of entertained, chatty women. Entertainment is not equivalent to sexual attraction.

Also, in relationships, my friend basically ALWAYS has the pimp hand even with the hottest of chicks. As much as I hate to say it, the bizarre thing is that this dude is basically a loser by society's standards. He just turned 26, he's still in undergrad (finishes next semester with a ****ty degree after 9 yrs of ****ing around), still parties with college kids 7 yrs younger than him, does not have a job, frequently asks me for money, has drug problems, and he doesn't have all that many friends (however, the guy is very charming, just way too eccentric for some people). Don't you think women would get sick of that? He's obviously not a real man yet by societal standards and he doesn't have all that much going for him. Yet gorgeous women are absolutely CRUSHED when he breaks up with them. They will do ANYTHING for him in relationships (for example, his ex paid for his rent, bought him drugs, etc). It's not like he manipulated them in any way to get them into that crushed state.

He definitely gives them a good time and most likely really good sex since he's in such good shape. However, he does things that most DJ's would frown upon such as get oneitis, cry with women, spend every waking minute with a gf, and use txting for seduction (he'll get into these LONG sexualized txt conversations that last for days and eventually the girl does show up), talking about chocolate rivers filled with marshmallows in his txts, and he gets away with it. The girls are still head over heels in love with him and acting like total AFC's even when they have nothing in common with him. In fact, he basically gets used for sex by one Asian cutie.

We could pretend that it's his studying of the game that gets the babes turning into AFC's when they're in a relationship with him, but it really isn't. It's that he's presumably a good **** and looks like Tom Cruise. Replace his body with a fat man's body and he'd get laid way less even with the same quirky personality. I mean, ****, I'm his best friend and we must have at least similar personalities (imaginative, right on the border between introvert and extrovert, very deep thinkers, both of us love women, and spontaneous) and interests, and I get laid by hot chicks WAY less than him.

This is why I do not, for the most part, believe in PU theory. After you get the bare bone basics (bare bone basics include being able to read body language, project open body language, not be nervous talking to women, and not be afraid of your sexuality) necessary for getting laid down, what determines you getting laid is your extroversion, the girl's self esteem, and your looks relative to her looks. It's true, there are exceptions like wealth, but do you ACTUALLY think that rich fat, ugly **** can satisfy his LTR in bed? No. Sure, you can bang hotties if you spin the wheel enough as someone that doesn't have very masculine physical characteristics, but you can only bang them when their self-esteem is down (due to breakups, mental illness, poverty, w/e). However, you can never have a satisfying relationship with them. There will always be a discord that results from the looks discrepancy.

6 mos of reading PUA material is good for the virgin trying to get laid for once, but after that, your time is better spent working out. You don't have to play the numbers game nearly as much if you have a hard, fit body and good style.

 

[zekko]

I don't think saying "Just be yourself, but better, and pick the right sorts of women" is being negative. It actually sounds like good advice. In the end, it's all a numbers game anyway, even if you're using the "seduction techniques".

The community HAS moved to a more natural style of game as a whole. I don't think that's a bad thing. The whole "trick a girl into thinking you're attractive" stuff is okay, but by nature it's geared toward short term interactions and pump and dumps. Not everyone is after that.

 

[Pallanick]

imo, Inner Game has become infinitely more important.

It's like that teaching a man how to fish metaphor. A man with a few seduction techniques gets laid a few times. A man with inner game gets laid too many times.

Sure, that is one way of looking at it. But maybe we've become lazy. The halt in understanding psychological triggers in girls, might not be the result from us learning more about ourselfs. But us embracing the fact that picking up a girl is not that hard.

I find that way of thinking to be limiting. Why can't we have Inner Game, yet be positive and work hard in achieve the best of both worlds?

 

[f283000]

Also, in relationships, my friend basically ALWAYS has the pimp hand even with the hottest of chicks. As much as I hate to say it, the bizarre thing is that this dude is basically a loser by society's standards. He just turned 26, he's still in undergrad (finishes next semester with a ****ty degree after 9 yrs of ****ing around), still parties with college kids 7 yrs younger than him, does not have a job, frequently asks me for money, has drug problems, and he doesn't have all that many friends (however, the guy is very charming, just way too eccentric for some people). Don't you think women would get sick of that? He's obviously not a real man yet by societal standards and he doesn't have all that much going for him. Yet gorgeous women are absolutely CRUSHED when he breaks up with them. They will do ANYTHING for him in relationships (for example, his ex paid for his rent, bought him drugs, etc). It's not like he manipulated them in any way to get them into that crushed state.

Societal standards don't meant nothing if you have top game. You have high salary educated professional women dating douchebags with no money on their bank account and it's not because they are real men by societal standards.

You should definitely get your friend to start posting here. I'm sure he could give some great advice to members of this forum

 

[Pallanick]

I don't think saying "Just be yourself, but better, and pick the right sorts of women" is being negative. It actually sounds like good advice. In the end, it's all a numbers game anyway, even if you're using the "seduction techniques".

The community HAS moved to a more natural style of game as a whole. I don't think that's a bad thing. The whole "trick a girl into thinking you're attractive" stuff is okay, but by nature it's geared toward short term interactions and pump and dumps. Not everyone is after that.

Well, it is good advice. But like stated, it is not a solid path. If anything, this way of thinking might get the "newbie" some sucess. But he has to learn WHY that way of thinking works, in order to get to the next level. That is hard to do, when it seems like a lot of people have just given up.

I think it's good that a "natural style" has evolved. But I don't think it is enough. Also, I think it's destructive to view getting girls so seriously that you're trying to find a soulmate. I think you HAVE to view the girl as something you want to consume, both for your own sake and for her continued intresst in you.

 

[Pallanick]

The reason things have become negative is because seduction gurus, aside from a few concepts, are selling the average guy basically useless advice. One of my close friends is extremely good looking (looks like Tom Cruise), obsessed with reading PU theory material, and probably goes out cold approaching a bunch of women like twice a week. He's banged like 60 women at age 26 with probably 1/3 of the women being in the 8-9 range (his 7 is probably most DJ's 8). His MLTR's are never below a 7.5. For this guy, the biggest hurdle he needs to get over usually is his personality, because he can already get his foot in the door with tons of the girls he meets due to his physical appearance. This means that PU advice is really relevant to him because it fixes exactly where he goes wrong sometimes. For the average guy, however, when the same advice he uses is followed, it doesn't generate sexual attraction, it just generates a bunch of entertained, chatty women. Entertainment is not equivalent to sexual attraction.

Also, in relationships, my friend basically ALWAYS has the pimp hand even with the hottest of chicks. As much as I hate to say it, the bizarre thing is that this dude is basically a loser by society's standards. He just turned 26, he's still in undergrad (finishes next semester with a ****ty degree after 9 yrs of ****ing around), still parties with college kids 7 yrs younger than him, does not have a job, frequently asks me for money, has drug problems, and he doesn't have all that many friends (however, the guy is very charming, just way too eccentric for some people). Don't you think women would get sick of that? He's obviously not a real man yet by societal standards and he doesn't have all that much going for him. Yet gorgeous women are absolutely CRUSHED when he breaks up with them. They will do ANYTHING for him in relationships (for example, his ex paid for his rent, bought him drugs, etc). It's not like he manipulated them in any way to get them into that crushed state.

He definitely gives them a good time and most likely really good sex since he's in such good shape. However, he does things that most DJ's would frown upon such as get oneitis, cry with women, spend every waking minute with a gf, and use txting for seduction (he'll get into these LONG sexualized txt conversations that last for days and eventually the girl does show up), talking about chocolate rivers filled with marshmallows in his txts, and he gets away with it. The girls are still head over heels in love with him and acting like total AFC's even when they have nothing in common with him. In fact, he basically gets used for sex by one Asian cutie.

We could pretend that it's his studying of the game that gets the babes turning into AFC's when they're in a relationship with him, but it really isn't. It's that he's presumably a good **** and looks like Tom Cruise. Replace his body with a fat man's body and he'd get laid way less even with the same quirky personality. I mean, ****, I'm his best friend and we must have at least similar personalities (imaginative, right on the border between introvert and extrovert, very deep thinkers, both of us love women, and spontaneous) and interests, and I get laid by hot chicks WAY less than him.

This is why I do not, for the most part, believe in PU theory. After you get the bare bone basics (bare bone basics include being able to read body language, project open body language, not be nervous talking to women, and not be afraid of your sexuality) necessary for getting laid down, what determines you getting laid is your extroversion, the girl's self esteem, and your looks relative to her looks. It's true, there are exceptions like wealth, but do you ACTUALLY think that rich fat, ugly **** can satisfy his LTR in bed? No. Sure, you can bang hotties if you spin the wheel enough as someone that doesn't have very masculine physical characteristics, but you can only bang them when their self-esteem is down (due to breakups, mental illness, poverty, w/e). However, you can never have a satisfying relationship with them. There will always be a discord that results from the looks discrepancy.

6 mos of reading PUA material is good for the virgin trying to get laid for once, but after that, your time is better spent working out. You don't have to play the numbers game nearly as much if you have a hard, fit body and good style.

I like this post. Cause it actually adresses the question per say.

And sure, I get why these things would make somebody consider PUA material to be "useless". But from reading your text, I don't think he's getting away with being a AFC. It sounds more like he is doing these AFC things in a PUA way.

Just because some PUA said that you can't spend all your time with a women. Dosen't mean that he isn't making the women dependant on him. She depends on him to make her feel good, hence why she isn't getting bored. So maybe his game is tighter then you think.

Also, maybe the reason to why you're not getting as hot girls as him. Or nearly as often. Is because you're acknowledging his attributes and compareing them to yours. I´d say, try going out to the club with him, without the seed growing in your mind, of him getting hotter girls, of him getting away with these ridiculous acts of being a AFC. On even playing fields and see how it goes. I bet you'll find that you will get just as good results as he does, as long as you match his masculinity.

 

[blueline]

Societal standards don't meant nothing if you have top game. You have high salary educated professional women dating douchebags with no money on their bank account and it's not because they are real men by societal standards.

You should definitely get your friend to start posting here. I'm sure he could give some great advice to members of this forum

I'm trying to get him to release a PU theory product. I will warn you that the **** he does will simply not work for the average goon that gets into PU theory. Tell that hot chick you met at the club a few days ago that you had a sexual dream about her in a funny way, you will most likely get a "ha ha, you are funny, goon!" response, but will she **** you? No. Of course, if that goon is approaching girls that aren't that hot or hot girls that have very low self-esteem/mental disorders, then yeah, it will work. As a sane man, though, you want quality women. Do you have the kinesthetic awareness to be almost professional dancer ability? Probably not. He gets laid a lot because he's a sick dancer. Everybody in the club will just watch him and be like "damn, white boy's crazy!!" Do you need to be a good dancer to get laid a lot? No. That's most definitely part of his game, though.

How do you think you might do if you were very non-verbally forward with women and just started out by invading their personal space and getting right in their face talking about crazy ass imaginative-emotional and funny stuff? I have an ugly, goony friend that does this exact same **** and he's still a virgin. The reason my friend can be so non-verbally forward with girls is because he gets the non-verbal IOI's acting as invitations before he even opens his mouth. Sometimes from across the room. At that point, all you have to do is not be weird (this is surprisingly difficult for some people), be sexual, and the girl is yours.

I get those kinds of non-verbal pre-approach IOI's from mostly 5's, 6's, and sometimes 7's with the very occasional deranged 8. A lot of the time, I'll just say fuck it and just approach her w/o any of these signs pre-approach. These things are sexual IOI's, not just friendliness like giving out a phone number, laughing, or being talkative. It's this closing of the physical space between the two of you (and more specifically, her being comfortable with it), intense eye contact, her touching you to accentuate points, it's her asking you to do things with her that are intended for couples, and it's the eyeballs widening as soon as you say hi b/c they already decided they want to **** you (not that they're going to, but just that the desire is there).

The woman basically signals back to you to start the seduction process almost as soon as she meets you. It doesn't have all that much to do with what you say just that you can keep a conversation flowing and confidently respond in kind to her signals. Barring fame/extremely good social status/money, you need to be her physical type to get these things.

 

[blueline]

I like this post. Cause it actually adresses the question per say.

And sure, I get why these things would make somebody consider PUA material to be "useless". But from reading your text, I don't think he's getting away with being a AFC. It sounds more like he is doing these AFC things in a PUA way.

Just because some PUA said that you can't spend all your time with a women. Dosen't mean that he isn't making the women dependant on him. She depends on him to make her feel good, hence why she isn't getting bored. So maybe his game is tighter then you think.

Also, maybe the reason to why you're not getting as hot girls as him. Or nearly as often. Is because you're acknowledging his attributes and compareing them to yours. I´d say, try going out to the club with him, without the seed growing in your mind, of him getting hotter girls, of him getting away with these ridiculous acts of being a AFC. On even playing fields and see how it goes. I bet you'll find that you will get just as good results as he does, as long as you match his masculinity.

Masculinity is an interesting thing. I will not deny that you can be kinda fat and masculine. However, I think a lot of masculinity outside of the obvious looks component is built on how you physically move (i.e. body language). A guy in shape will walk in a more effortless way than a guy that hasn't been to the gym for years. He'll **** her better with solely his **** because he'll be able to go really fast and hard without tiring. He'll be able to do all these new positions. He'll be strong enough to **** her against a wall without tiring. A weakling is not a good ****.